Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 112135

Shown: posts 1 to 18 of 18. This is the beginning of the thread.

 

suicidal ideation

Posted by EmilyAnn on July 12, 2002, at 16:38:52

Hi. I'm having a real hard time these past few weeks. Everyday I feel as if I want to die. The past few days I've been planning ways to do it. I don't think I would kill myslef, b/c I am afraid I'd go to hell...but I feel like I'm living in hell anyway. I feel abandoned by God, by those who are supposed to be my friends, by doctors and therapists. I feel like I've done all I am supposed to do to help me with my illnesses, but nothing works...and it's not worth living anymore. I can't even leave the house...it's too hard. I hate myself, and my life and I can't see it getting better. I thought of going into the hospital, but if I have to quit one more semester of school b/c of this I will loose it, I mean literally loose it. My sponsor says I'm not good coz I need to get into the program more...well I've tried and am trying...I just want to die. I can't find a new psychiatrist...I've been trying to get a new one...I make calls almost everyday. I called my old therapist to see if he'd see me and help me w/ my insurance benefits that ran out. I feel no joy and no hope. No one understands. I just do not care anymore. I just want to drink myself to death. I hate everything.

 

Let me help you; a must read

Posted by Shawn. T. on July 12, 2002, at 17:39:55

In reply to suicidal ideation, posted by EmilyAnn on July 12, 2002, at 16:38:52

Please read this!
http://www.biopsychiatry.com/hpasui.htm

Suicidal ideation is preventable. Currently, the only drug available to help is Remeron. This is because Remeron has effects on the HPA access due to its blockage of 5HT2 serotonin receptors. There will soon be a drug with fewer side effects that will be able to help you, M,100,907 which will be released probably sometime in the next couple years by Aventis Pharmaceuticals. If you're worried about Remeron's effects on weight gain and drowsiness, a combination of Remeron and Wellbutrin would be very effective. I believe that a combination of Remeron and Wellbutrin is hands down the most effective means available to prevent depressive symptoms. I would also like to recommend the dietary supplement DHEA if you do not have an anxiety disorder. Also note that if you are suffering from chronic fatigue syndrome, you will not want to take Remeron. In this case you will want to take DHEA without Remeron. If the DHEA doesn't help for chronic fatigue, add Wellbutrin. I can support all of this with references from academic studies, which I have done elsewhere on this message board.

 

Re: Let me help you; a must read

Posted by EmilyAnn on July 12, 2002, at 18:51:15

In reply to Let me help you; a must read, posted by Shawn. T. on July 12, 2002, at 17:39:55

Shawn,
thank you for the advice. I'm really sick of taking meds! But, the adive is appreciated. I have tried Welbutirn, it did not work for me. I'll research Remeron. Oh, yah I do have anxiety. I'm not sure what that other thing you were talking about is. Fatigue? yeah I am tired all the time, but that may just be due to the depression. I can't be on too high a dose of anti-depressants, b/c I'm Bipolar.

I'll read up on the stuff you suggested.
thanks.

 

There is hope

Posted by rainbowlight on July 12, 2002, at 20:14:07

In reply to Re: Let me help you; a must read, posted by EmilyAnn on July 12, 2002, at 18:51:15

I have to disagree with the above poster. Remeron is not the ONLY med that can bring you out of a suicidal depression. There are many medications that can do that. Seeing as you have no insurance, I would start calling local government agencies/hospitals/doctors and explain that you need help as soon as possible. I think you should be able to find someone that will be understanding and work with you on medical payments. There may even be help available for no charge. If you are feeling suicidal daily you really need to get help ASAP. I know how you feel, it feels like it will never get better, but it can. Please don't give up. Stick around here, we are always willing to listen and help.

 

Any bipolars taking Remeron out there?

Posted by Shawn. T. on July 12, 2002, at 22:09:52

In reply to Re: Let me help you; a must read, posted by EmilyAnn on July 12, 2002, at 18:51:15

I think Remeron may be useful for bipolar based on my knowledge of 5-HT2 antagonism. I haven't done any research yet, but I will not forgot the bipolars. I have been trying to figure out depression, schizophrenia (I think I've got that one nailed down shut), fibromyalgia, and anxiety disorders. My reasoning behind my thinking that Remeron may be useful for bipolars is the effectiveness of mixing SSRI's and drugs like Zyprexa for bipolar disorder. I would argue that the effects of Zyprexa on dopamine are unnecessary and often lead to side effects. What Remeron and Zyprexa share in common is 5-HT2 antagonism. You also get the good effects of SSRI's with Remeron without a lot of the bad effects. I can sympathize with you about having to take meds, but I foresee a day not too far in the future when you'll only have to take one every day. Beyond that, gene therapy is looking more and more promising every day. You don't have chronic fatigue syndrome by the way; it is the depression. After the initial drowsiness caused by Remeron, you will probably feel more alert and less tired. I'll repost the link if you can't find it.

 

Re: There is hope

Posted by Shawn. T. on July 12, 2002, at 22:29:10

In reply to There is hope, posted by rainbowlight on July 12, 2002, at 20:14:07

You are correct, of course. Remeron isn't perfect, but I believe it's the best drug currently available that is approved by the FDA. You should of course, see a psychiatrist. Throw my Remeron ideas at them and see what they think. Remeron has been shown to be the most effective antidepressant to date with possibly the lowest occurence of side effects. I like Wellbutrin too, but I don't think it's all the great without Remeron. The link between suicidalism and 5-HT2 in my opinion is too strong to ignore in my opinion. I believe the SSRI's are most useful for augmenting Remeron resistant treatment. The tricyclics have way too many side effects. The SSRI's are horrible by themselves.

 

Re: Let me help you; a must read

Posted by cybercafe on July 12, 2002, at 23:47:56

In reply to Re: Let me help you; a must read, posted by EmilyAnn on July 12, 2002, at 18:51:15

> thank you for the advice. I'm really sick of taking meds! But, the adive is appreciated. I have tried Welbutirn, it did not work for me. I'll research Remeron. Oh, yah I do have anxiety. I'm not sure what that other thing you were talking about is. Fatigue? yeah I am tired all the time, but that may just be due to the depression. I can't be on too high a dose of anti-depressants, b/c I'm Bipolar.

.... okay i think shawn is right, but i'm not so sure about the mechanism... i believe 5HT2A antagonism is good because it reduces agitation in the neocortex/prefrontalcortex.. the area responsible for thought.. and thus it's projections to emotional centres of the brain... it also increases firing of neurons in the pleasure centers -- but this is just a bonus, i think...

btw remeron is not the only 5ht2 antagonist... you can always try something more specific like ritanserin, .. or even something more calming like zyprexa...

.... look i feel suicidal too sometimes and i'm not going to be so arrogant as to say that suicide is inherently wrong... however if it could be as easy as asking your doc for a perscription for say zyprexa or whatever and feeling better in a matter of days (drugs that reduce agitation work rather quickly) doesn't it seem worth it? .. like very little work for major benefit? ...

... hell when depression gets that bad i even consider things like ECT -- i hear ECT destroys memories around the time of the procedure (who wants those anyways) but increases intelligence through increasing brain cells or cell size or receptor number or something... it is also used off label for parkinsons, so you know it must have some beneficial effects....

... why not get in touch with a doc and get some help? ...
... personally when i feel suicidal i take gabapentin, and it gets rid of the anxiety and helps me sleep ... but i don't think that's the best solution...

... oh and don't bother feeling any shame -- studies have shown that healthy controls with no history of depression/mental illness have become suicidal on SSRIs (i believe within the first week or so.... ) so it's definately not a "weakness" ...

... i mean i myself totally feel awesome now... unbelievably good... and i am so happy that i didn't give in... but it's much better that you try and get help medication or whatever wise than just put up with it... there is totally no need to suffer...

 

Best treatment for schizophrenia, Remeron?

Posted by Shawn. T. on July 13, 2002, at 2:49:21

In reply to Re: Let me help you; a must read, posted by cybercafe on July 12, 2002, at 23:47:56

Ritanserin does not bind to 5-HT2C receptors.
See
http://www.gpcr.org/7tm/ligand/Organon/Tablig/LIG_C87051432.html

That would be predictive of lack of efficacy in schizophrenic patients.

http://www.biopsychiatry.com/ritanserin.htm

Interestingly enough, I never bothered to see if clinical trials on mirtazapine (Remeron) had been conducted on schizophrenic patients. See
http://www4.infotrieve.com/search/databases/detailsNew.asp?artID=16273394

Nice to see confirmation of my theories regarding schizophrenia. This would seem to effectively negate claims that schizophrenia can be treated with dopaminergic agents. Drugs which modulate dopamine release are the key to treating schizophrenia.

Also on the effectiveness of Ritanserin, it has been shown to be about as effective as SSRI's. You may recall that mirtazapine has been shown to be more efficacious in depression treatment than SSRI's. See
http://www4.infotrieve.com/search/databases/detailsNew.asp?artID=29479403

I wonder why there is no mention in the Cochrane report of Remeron.

I really appreciate your comments cybercafe. I'm glad to hear you are doing so well.

 

Re: suicidal ideation » EmilyAnn

Posted by Dinah on July 13, 2002, at 8:03:02

In reply to suicidal ideation, posted by EmilyAnn on July 12, 2002, at 16:38:52

I'm sorry to hear of it, Emily Ann. Finding a new psychiatrist is difficult under the best of circumstances, a good one even more difficult. Are there any other doctors you could go see in the meantime? A GP could perhaps hold you over short term and help you find other help. Is the problem that your mental health benefits under your plan limited?

And if it will help any, Psycho-Social Babble is a good place to get support from each other. Perhaps there is someone there with a good suggestion for you. Would you like me to try to redirect your initial post to that board? Tell you what. I'll give it a try.

Dr. Bob, forgive me if I get this wrong.

 

Re: my attempt at a redirect

Posted by Dinah on July 13, 2002, at 8:18:50

In reply to Re: suicidal ideation » EmilyAnn, posted by Dinah on July 13, 2002, at 8:03:02

I have attempted to redirect your message to psycho-social babble, where you might be able to find more support and maybe some suggestions as well. Here is the link.

www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20020629/msgs/26327

Darned if I know if it will work.

 

Ah well, I tried.

Posted by Dinah on July 13, 2002, at 8:19:42

In reply to Re: my attempt at a redirect, posted by Dinah on July 13, 2002, at 8:18:50

The message is on social anyway. I just can't provide the link.

 

Emily Ann - Did you make it to Social? (nm)

Posted by Dinah on July 13, 2002, at 11:22:18

In reply to Ah well, I tried., posted by Dinah on July 13, 2002, at 8:19:42

 

Re: Let me help you; a must read

Posted by EmilyAnn on July 13, 2002, at 18:00:38

In reply to Re: Let me help you; a must read, posted by cybercafe on July 12, 2002, at 23:47:56

***I am so confused with all this technical jargon.

> .... look i feel suicidal too sometimes and i'm not going to be so arrogant as to say that suicide is inherently wrong... however if it could be as easy as asking your doc for a perscription for say zyprexa or whatever and feeling better in a matter of days (drugs that reduce agitation work rather quickly) doesn't it seem worth it? .. like very little work for major benefit? ...
> ***it is alot of work...each time I try a new med, I get all messed up in my head...and it ends up not working anyway. But I understand where you are coming from.

> ... hell when depression gets that bad i even consider things like ECT -- i hear ECT destroys memories around the time of the procedure (who wants those anyways) but increases intelligence through increasing brain cells or cell size or receptor number or something... it is also used off label for parkinsons, so you know it must have some beneficial effects....
>***I was just thinking of that yesterday.

> ... why not get in touch with a doc and get some help? ...
> ... personally when i feel suicidal i take gabapentin, and it gets rid of the anxiety and helps me sleep ... but i don't think that's the best solution...
>****Neurotin does not work for me.

> ... oh and don't bother feeling any shame -- studies have shown that healthy controls with no history of depression/mental illness have become suicidal on SSRIs (i believe within the first week or so.... ) so it's definately not a "weakness" ...
>***thank you

> ... i mean i myself totally feel awesome now... unbelievably good... and i am so happy that i didn't give in... but it's much better that you try and get help medication or whatever wise than just put up with it... there is totally no need to suffer...

***I've been trying...I've been holding on for years.

 

Re: suicidal ideation

Posted by EmilyAnn on July 13, 2002, at 18:03:51

In reply to Re: suicidal ideation » EmilyAnn, posted by Dinah on July 13, 2002, at 8:03:02

> I'm sorry to hear of it, Emily Ann. Finding a new psychiatrist is difficult under the best of circumstances, a good one even more difficult. Are there any other doctors you could go see in the meantime? A GP could perhaps hold you over short term and help you find other help. Is the problem that your mental health benefits under your plan limited?
> ***My primary doc refuses to administer meds to me...I do have enough of the meds I am on now to last 2 more months, but these meds are not wroking. My mental health benefits are unlimited with regard to med checks (psychiatrist)..but are up for counseling.

> And if it will help any, Psycho-Social Babble is a good place to get support from each other. Perhaps there is someone there with a good suggestion for you. Would you like me to try to redirect your initial post to that board? Tell you what. I'll give it a try.
>***If you'd like. I just don't know what to do right now. I just want to die. I am so wretchedly sad...I can't take it.

Please pray for me. Thank you for your reply and support.

> Dr. Bob, forgive me if I get this wrong.

 

Re: Ah well, I tried.

Posted by EmilyAnn on July 13, 2002, at 18:04:31

In reply to Ah well, I tried., posted by Dinah on July 13, 2002, at 8:19:42

thank you

 

Re: Emily Ann - Did you make it to Social?

Posted by EmilyAnn on July 13, 2002, at 18:04:55

In reply to Emily Ann - Did you make it to Social? (nm), posted by Dinah on July 13, 2002, at 11:22:18

gonna try now

 

Re: my attempt at a redirect

Posted by Dr. Bob on July 14, 2002, at 14:09:31

In reply to Re: my attempt at a redirect, posted by Dinah on July 13, 2002, at 8:18:50

> www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20020629/msgs/26327

Thanks for doing that, all you needed was the "http://" at the beginning and the ".html" at the end:

http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20020629/msgs/26327.html

Bob

 

Re: Let me help you; a must read

Posted by cybercafe on July 15, 2002, at 0:54:24

In reply to Re: Let me help you; a must read, posted by EmilyAnn on July 13, 2002, at 18:00:38

> ***I am so confused with all this technical jargon.

Doesn't it feel good? :)

seem worth it? .. like very little work for major benefit? ...
> > ***it is alot of work...each time I try a new med, I get all messed up in my head...and it ends up not working anyway. But I understand where you are coming from.

oh yeah for sure antidepressants can take a while to work (though it has been said that pindolol can be used to speed up this effect.. perhaps worth asking about?) ... but drugs that counter agitation and suicidal ideation take somewhere between 1 day and one week no? ... i'm thinking benzos or low-dose antipsychotics... but i'm sure your doc knows of others

... oh and if it makes you feel better.. there are some definite ideas about in what order antidepressants should be tried... www.vh.org was one site i remember... so you shouldn't have to worry about having to just randomly try things until you get it right ..

i suppose if you are really in trouble you could ask for an opiod... they are supposed to take effect in less than a week, no? .. some people on here were talking about buprenorphine

.... in fact i wonder if stimulants might work fast as well? ... hmmm.... but really if you are feeling suicidal it is probably a good idea to go to hospital... not just because you might do something you would regret etc, but because you might miss out on the opportunity to get half decent psychiatric service ... get another opinion, maybe see a somewhat intelligent doc....

.... often i find when i am feeling somewhat desperate that i will ask myself what the point is of feeling fear or shame when it seems like i have nothing to lose... and see a new doc or try a new med or whatever.... and that's when things really start to look up ;)

... i think we can both agree that an informed decision is better than an uninformed decision, so it's probably worth finding out whether it is easy or difficult to get rid of the feelings you have (not necessarily depression but more suicidal depression) .... and if you have any fears of ECT or having to wait for different meds to work if they are necessarily justified...

there's nothing worse then suffering and then realizing that you didn't need to ;)

.. well other than continuing to suffer needlessly :)

> >***I was just thinking of that yesterday.

when you're depressed, ECT is better than sex ;)

> ***I've been trying...I've been holding on for years.

... yep, ... i'm at about 7 years now myself... been seeing a half decent doc for 5 months, and things are a hell of a lot better..


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