![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 17 to 41 of 50. Go back in thread:
Posted by lou pilder on February 14, 2002, at 21:25:03
In reply to Re: withdrawing from sleeping pill addiction at home? » lou pilder, posted by Greg on February 14, 2002, at 21:03:23
> > > Lou,
> > >
> > > I think that it's important to get one's information from different sources, if possible. I read up on Ambien and asked my pdoc about his experience with it before I started taking it. I decided to try it precisely because of its differences from benzodiazepines (its only known mechanism of action is selective activation of one subtype of benzodiazepine receptor). I continued to be interested in it after I started taking it, and I took note of my own response to it. Finally, I listened to other people's remarks about it, on boards like this one and in RL support groups. I think this has given me a fairly good idea of what the typical effects of Ambien are. As I've said, my impression has been that withdrawal symptoms, if any, consist mainly of rebound insomnia, and that this is generally brief. That doesn't mean that nobody has bad withdrawal reactions, but they are the exception, not the rule. Similarly, tolerance is very rare. In contrast, I wouldn't recommend benzodiazepines for long-term insomnia, as a rule; people who take benzos for very long tend to become tolerant to their sedating effects, and discontinuing benzos after long-term use can be difficult and even potentially dangerous (although it's quite possible to do it safely as long as you exercise some patience).
> > >
> > > -elizabeth
> >
> > Elizebeth;
> > I have read so many reports that are saying something much different than you are saying about Ambian. Onr report says that it a favorered drug on the street for drug addicts. Other reports show withdraw as bad as BZs. Do yu want me to share those with you. ?
> > Lou
>
> If you could post the links to these reports I would like very much to see them. I have been taking Ambien for over two years for insomnia. I have stopped on a few occasions and have experienced nothing more than a little temporary rebound insomnia. I've certainly never heard of Ambien being a drug of choice for street addicts.
>
> GregGreg;
Look at this email address;
www.voy.com/14008/4/488.html
Lou
Posted by lou pilder on February 14, 2002, at 21:44:37
In reply to Re: withdrawing from sleeping pill addiction at home? » lou pilder, posted by Greg on February 14, 2002, at 21:03:23
> > > Lou,
> > >
> > > I think that it's important to get one's information from different sources, if possible. I read up on Ambien and asked my pdoc about his experience with it before I started taking it. I decided to try it precisely because of its differences from benzodiazepines (its only known mechanism of action is selective activation of one subtype of benzodiazepine receptor). I continued to be interested in it after I started taking it, and I took note of my own response to it. Finally, I listened to other people's remarks about it, on boards like this one and in RL support groups. I think this has given me a fairly good idea of what the typical effects of Ambien are. As I've said, my impression has been that withdrawal symptoms, if any, consist mainly of rebound insomnia, and that this is generally brief. That doesn't mean that nobody has bad withdrawal reactions, but they are the exception, not the rule. Similarly, tolerance is very rare. In contrast, I wouldn't recommend benzodiazepines for long-term insomnia, as a rule; people who take benzos for very long tend to become tolerant to their sedating effects, and discontinuing benzos after long-term use can be difficult and even potentially dangerous (although it's quite possible to do it safely as long as you exercise some patience).
> > >
> > > -elizabeth
> >
> > Elizebeth;
> > I have read so many reports that are saying something much different than you are saying about Ambian. Onr report says that it a favorered drug on the street for drug addicts. Other reports show withdraw as bad as BZs. Do yu want me to share those with you. ?
> > Lou
>
> If you could post the links to these reports I would like very much to see them. I have been taking Ambien for over two years for insomnia. I have stopped on a few occasions and have experienced nothing more than a little temporary rebound insomnia. I've certainly never heard of Ambien being a drug of choice for street addicts.
>
> GregGreg;
Try this addresss:
www.sleepnet.com/insomnia7/messages/427.html
Lou
Posted by lou pilder on February 14, 2002, at 22:02:32
In reply to Re: withdrawing from sleeping pill addiction at home? » lou pilder, posted by Greg on February 14, 2002, at 21:03:23
> > > Lou,
> > >
> > > I think that it's important to get one's information from different sources, if possible. I read up on Ambien and asked my pdoc about his experience with it before I started taking it. I decided to try it precisely because of its differences from benzodiazepines (its only known mechanism of action is selective activation of one subtype of benzodiazepine receptor). I continued to be interested in it after I started taking it, and I took note of my own response to it. Finally, I listened to other people's remarks about it, on boards like this one and in RL support groups. I think this has given me a fairly good idea of what the typical effects of Ambien are. As I've said, my impression has been that withdrawal symptoms, if any, consist mainly of rebound insomnia, and that this is generally brief. That doesn't mean that nobody has bad withdrawal reactions, but they are the exception, not the rule. Similarly, tolerance is very rare. In contrast, I wouldn't recommend benzodiazepines for long-term insomnia, as a rule; people who take benzos for very long tend to become tolerant to their sedating effects, and discontinuing benzos after long-term use can be difficult and even potentially dangerous (although it's quite possible to do it safely as long as you exercise some patience).
> > >
> > > -elizabeth
> >
> > Elizebeth;
> > I have read so many reports that are saying something much different than you are saying about Ambian. Onr report says that it a favorered drug on the street for drug addicts. Other reports show withdraw as bad as BZs. Do yu want me to share those with you. ?
> > Lou
>
> If you could post the links to these reports I would like very much to see them. I have been taking Ambien for over two years for insomnia. I have stopped on a few occasions and have experienced nothing more than a little temporary rebound insomnia. I've certainly never heard of Ambien being a drug of choice for street addicts.
>
> GregGreg;
Do a Google serch on: Pharmaceutical Drugs of Abuse. Hint: click on casche when that headline appears.
Ambien is number 14 out of the top 20
Lou
Posted by christophrejmc on February 14, 2002, at 22:04:41
In reply to Re: withdrawing from sleeping pill addiction at home? » Dona, posted by lou pilder on February 14, 2002, at 19:59:36
Yvonne Day is also involved with various anti-benzodiazepine (and anti-psychiatric medication) groups such as http://www.benzo.org.uk. This doesn't invalidate anything she says (or anything on the website), but it's important to know all the facts. Although a lot of their advice may be helpful, I feel that they tend to exaggerate and rely on scare tactics.
> There is a whole group that will help you witdraw from ambian. I have withdrawn from a benzodiazepine and your withdral is supposed to be no worse than that. IfI can do it, you ca do it also. Contact Yvonne Day in Columbus , Ohio. She will tell you how yo can withdraw.
> Lou
Posted by Cam W. on February 14, 2002, at 22:24:15
In reply to Re: withdrawing from sleeping pill addiction at home? » Greg, posted by lou pilder on February 14, 2002, at 22:02:32
Lou - A vast majority of people, if they use hypnotics responsibly, will have absolutely no problem stopping them. Long term Ambien™ (zolpidem) use is far easier to stop than than an equivalent dosage of any benzodiazepine over the same duration of time.
The anecdotal evidence from one or two people must be regarded with caution. We do not know the full medical history of those who posted those responses; nor do we know what other drugs (licit or elicit) they may be using concommitantly. We also do not know if these people have withdrawn slowly (eg. over a period of 2 or more weeks - depending upon what dose they were taking and the duration of the drug's use). Also, some people, due to their individual body chemistry, will have bad reactions (eg. allergic, idiosyncratic, etc.) to some medications.
These are only some factors that must be taken into consideration before a complete story can be elicited. Sweeping generalizations can do more harm than good. One must dig for the facts.
Just my clinical opinion. - Cam
Posted by Alan on February 15, 2002, at 0:54:41
In reply to Yvonne Day, posted by christophrejmc on February 14, 2002, at 22:04:41
Yvonne Day is also involved with various anti-benzodiazepine (and anti-psychiatric medication) groups such as http://www.benzo.org.uk. This doesn't invalidate anything she says (or anything on the website), but it's important to know all the facts. Although a lot of their advice may be helpful, I feel that they tend to exaggerate and rely on scare tactics.
*******************************************Here we go again with the anti-benzo zealots and their scare tactics. These strident minority groups which are mainly political and moralistic (rather than medical) in nature, using hyperbole, half-truths and innuendo are ones to be watched out for.
The constant usage of the term "addiction" as a pejorative when the term "medical dependence" is more appropriate for BZD usage isn't even on their radar screen. "Detox" is their battle cry calling BZD's neurotoxins and treating patients as if they are illicit drug users and lumping them in with poly drug abusers taking heroin and cocaine - even claiming falsely that tapering BZD's is the same "hell" as detoxing from these narcotics...and that after stopping BZD's the original anxiety is 10X's (or is that 100X's? - keeps changing) worse than before.
They have influenced NHS policy in the UK, Canada, and Australia to the anxiety suffer's detriment by taking the freedom of choice away from the patient/doctor relationship to use what they know works.
It is an insideous problem that needs to be addressed head on. They scare people needlessly stigmatising the use of these meds and provoking guilt about taking them from the anxiety sufferer that is being helped by them in the first place and those considering taking a med that could easily turn their life around for the better.
They are well known in the community of pdocs that specalise in the treatment of chronic anxiety disorders and are referred to in cult-like status.
There is so little understanding of these meds by many modern day pdocs that it takes a great stroke of luck or heavy duty searching to find one that is well educated about them to not cause more harm by witholding BZD's as a last resort instead of giving the patient freedom of choice to try them on equal footing with the ssri's.
On top of that there's a tremendous push by the pharms. to have as many docs as possible give the most medicine as possibe from the ssri catagory to recover R&D investment and to claim no withdrawl efffect (like the BZD's do, they imply). Coming to find out that ALL meds have withdrawl effects that must be moderated by slow withdrawl including the antiepileptics, antihypertensives, ssri's etc, etc.
One of the biggest frauds going on in psychiatric medicine today - the trashing of BZD's and similar.
Alan
Posted by christophrejmc on February 15, 2002, at 1:37:15
In reply to Re: the anti BZD zealotry factor., posted by Alan on February 15, 2002, at 0:54:41
Posted by lou pilder on February 15, 2002, at 8:15:13
In reply to Re: withdrawing from sleeping pill addiction at home? » lou pilder, posted by Cam W. on February 14, 2002, at 22:24:15
> Lou - A vast majority of people, if they use hypnotics responsibly, will have absolutely no problem stopping them. Long term Ambien™ (zolpidem) use is far easier to stop than than an equivalent dosage of any benzodiazepine over the same duration of time.
>
> The anecdotal evidence from one or two people must be regarded with caution. We do not know the full medical history of those who posted those responses; nor do we know what other drugs (licit or elicit) they may be using concommitantly. We also do not know if these people have withdrawn slowly (eg. over a period of 2 or more weeks - depending upon what dose they were taking and the duration of the drug's use). Also, some people, due to their individual body chemistry, will have bad reactions (eg. allergic, idiosyncratic, etc.) to some medications.
>
> These are only some factors that must be taken into consideration before a complete story can be elicited. Sweeping generalizations can do more harm than good. One must dig for the facts.
>
> Just my clinical opinion. - CamCam and others,
I accept your challenge to debate Ambein and its use . The co. that makes that drug says not to take it for more than 7-10 days. It appears that the people on this board that are on Ambien have used it way beyond that time frame and are suffering from it. But let those people that want to withdraw from that drug do so. They are asking people on this board how to do so. I know first hand how to do so. I know of people that have devoted their lives to helping people that want off of this drug. If those people that want off of this drug want help to do so, then wouldn't this board be the best for them to come to to get help? Go ahead and have me kicked off this board. Make up the cowardly excuse that I am guilty of telling people that they need help to overcome this addiction that they have. Go ahead and tell me that I am guilty of wanting people to be free from this drug. Go ahead and tell me that I am guilty of wanting people to have their suffering stopped. I don't care about yuo and your quest to advocate the use of psychotropic drugs. I have seen the misery that these drugs have done to people ,over and over. People that want to kill themslves over this drug. People whose memory is impairrred. People whose marriages are ruined. People whose lives are made a shambles from this drug. People that are in jail for forging prescriptions to get this drug. This drug can not be used "responsibly" after 7-10 days. Let us all help those that want off this drug get their help to do so. We can not encourage them to keep taking the drug. Let them get help .
Lou
Posted by Cam W. on February 15, 2002, at 8:25:23
In reply to Re: the anti BZD zealotry factor., posted by Alan on February 15, 2002, at 0:54:41
Posted by Cam W. on February 15, 2002, at 8:59:42
In reply to Lou's answer to Cam and others » Cam W., posted by lou pilder on February 15, 2002, at 8:15:13
Lou - Overgeneralizations and fear-mongering do more harm than good. The reason that "all" hypnotics carry the 7 to 10 day warning is because that rebound insomnia "may" occur in a number of people who stop these meds after this period of time. Remember, the product monographs that contain this warning are lawyers documents written by lawyers for lawyers. To be read properly, a monograph must be interpreted as such (ie. as drug company protection against this excitable and litigous society in which we live).
The people that I am referring to do not have chronic sleep problems, nor are they people with chronic disorders. The guidelines were based on trials of "healthy" people given the drug over a period of time. They were also based on the clinical observations that many people who stopped hypnotics (ie. benzodiazepine hypnotics) after long term use would suffer from rebound insomnia.
Rebound insomnia is, in a very vast majority of cases (ie. in cases where there is not an underlying sleep disorder) a self-limiting phenomena, lasting no more than a week or two. This is irritating to the person experiencing it, but hardly "life-threatening" and most definitely not "addiction"; dependence perhaps (which is also self-limiting, albeit sometimes uncomfortable). Addiction is losing it's true meaning in today's society.
It is very hard to become physically addicted to benzodiazepines, and even harder to do so with Ambien. You actually have to work at it and abuse the drugs (ie. take increasingly higher doses over a long period of time). This, in most cases, happens when the hypnotics are not being used therapeutically, but are being used for "escape."
Please understand, the media must put a sensational spin on stories in order to be able to sell them. Facts don't sell a story, presentation does. This is why our society is hooked on marketing. If the media had said that a few people, who had taken hypnotics for a long period of time had a couple weeks of sleeplessness and anxiety when stopping said drugs, no one would have noticed.
People tend to exaggerate their symptoms, as well. We often (esp. men < lol >) tend to act sicker than we really are, for many reasons: to elicit sympathy; to get out of doing a chore or work because we are feeling less than able; or our bodies telling us to rest so that we can heal more readily.
Lou, do not believe everything that you read. Always ask yourself what are the motives behind any statement. Also, if a claim (esp. exceptional or horrendous) sounds too good/bad it is most probably exaggerated (eg. cold fusion, Ester-C™, shark cartilage, pyramid marketing, 72 willing virgins for eternity, etc.).
- Cam
Posted by lou pilder on February 15, 2002, at 9:32:39
In reply to Re: Lou's answer to Cam and others » lou pilder, posted by Cam W. on February 15, 2002, at 8:59:42
> Lou - Overgeneralizations and fear-mongering do more harm than good. The reason that "all" hypnotics carry the 7 to 10 day warning is because that rebound insomnia "may" occur in a number of people who stop these meds after this period of time. Remember, the product monographs that contain this warning are lawyers documents written by lawyers for lawyers. To be read properly, a monograph must be interpreted as such (ie. as drug company protection against this excitable and litigous society in which we live).
>
> The people that I am referring to do not have chronic sleep problems, nor are they people with chronic disorders. The guidelines were based on trials of "healthy" people given the drug over a period of time. They were also based on the clinical observations that many people who stopped hypnotics (ie. benzodiazepine hypnotics) after long term use would suffer from rebound insomnia.
>
> Rebound insomnia is, in a very vast majority of cases (ie. in cases where there is not an underlying sleep disorder) a self-limiting phenomena, lasting no more than a week or two. This is irritating to the person experiencing it, but hardly "life-threatening" and most definitely not "addiction"; dependence perhaps (which is also self-limiting, albeit sometimes uncomfortable). Addiction is losing it's true meaning in today's society.
>
> It is very hard to become physically addicted to benzodiazepines, and even harder to do so with Ambien. You actually have to work at it and abuse the drugs (ie. take increasingly higher doses over a long period of time). This, in most cases, happens when the hypnotics are not being used therapeutically, but are being used for "escape."
>
> Please understand, the media must put a sensational spin on stories in order to be able to sell them. Facts don't sell a story, presentation does. This is why our society is hooked on marketing. If the media had said that a few people, who had taken hypnotics for a long period of time had a couple weeks of sleeplessness and anxiety when stopping said drugs, no one would have noticed.
>
> People tend to exaggerate their symptoms, as well. We often (esp. men < lol >) tend to act sicker than we really are, for many reasons: to elicit sympathy; to get out of doing a chore or work because we are feeling less than able; or our bodies telling us to rest so that we can heal more readily.
>
> Lou, do not believe everything that you read. Always ask yourself what are the motives behind any statement. Also, if a claim (esp. exceptional or horrendous) sounds too good/bad it is most probably exaggerated (eg. cold fusion, Ester-C™, shark cartilage, pyramid marketing, 72 willing virgins for eternity, etc.).
>
>
> - CamCam and others.
Ambien is classified as a scehdual IV drug by the federal government.
Lou
Posted by lou pilder on February 15, 2002, at 9:58:25
In reply to Re: Lou's answer to Cam and others » Cam W., posted by lou pilder on February 15, 2002, at 9:32:39
> > Lou - Overgeneralizations and fear-mongering do more harm than good. The reason that "all" hypnotics carry the 7 to 10 day warning is because that rebound insomnia "may" occur in a number of people who stop these meds after this period of time. Remember, the product monographs that contain this warning are lawyers documents written by lawyers for lawyers. To be read properly, a monograph must be interpreted as such (ie. as drug company protection against this excitable and litigous society in which we live).
> >
> > The people that I am referring to do not have chronic sleep problems, nor are they people with chronic disorders. The guidelines were based on trials of "healthy" people given the drug over a period of time. They were also based on the clinical observations that many people who stopped hypnotics (ie. benzodiazepine hypnotics) after long term use would suffer from rebound insomnia.
> >
> > Rebound insomnia is, in a very vast majority of cases (ie. in cases where there is not an underlying sleep disorder) a self-limiting phenomena, lasting no more than a week or two. This is irritating to the person experiencing it, but hardly "life-threatening" and most definitely not "addiction"; dependence perhaps (which is also self-limiting, albeit sometimes uncomfortable). Addiction is losing it's true meaning in today's society.
> >
> > It is very hard to become physically addicted to benzodiazepines, and even harder to do so with Ambien. You actually have to work at it and abuse the drugs (ie. take increasingly higher doses over a long period of time). This, in most cases, happens when the hypnotics are not being used therapeutically, but are being used for "escape."
> >
> > Please understand, the media must put a sensational spin on stories in order to be able to sell them. Facts don't sell a story, presentation does. This is why our society is hooked on marketing. If the media had said that a few people, who had taken hypnotics for a long period of time had a couple weeks of sleeplessness and anxiety when stopping said drugs, no one would have noticed.
> >
> > People tend to exaggerate their symptoms, as well. We often (esp. men < lol >) tend to act sicker than we really are, for many reasons: to elicit sympathy; to get out of doing a chore or work because we are feeling less than able; or our bodies telling us to rest so that we can heal more readily.
> >
> > Lou, do not believe everything that you read. Always ask yourself what are the motives behind any statement. Also, if a claim (esp. exceptional or horrendous) sounds too good/bad it is most probably exaggerated (eg. cold fusion, Ester-C™, shark cartilage, pyramid marketing, 72 willing virgins for eternity, etc.).
> >
> >
> > - Cam
>
> Cam and others.
> Ambien is classified as a scehdual IV drug by the federal government.
> LouGroup people;
For those that want to hear about Ambien, AKA Zaleplon, stay on this board and I will give you information that will help you decide. Zaleplon,(Ambien) is listed as a class IV drug along with benzodiazapines and narcotics by the Federal Government. Now that is a fact. It is not my opinion. I will stay with what I have experianced, with facts, and with the reports from people that have taken this drug and wanted offf of it. I have given only 2 reports, but not because there are not more, but because of the time it takes for me to find the report. If anyone wants more of these reports, I will take the time to send them to this board for I believe that it is worth the effort for me to do so. If you want to continue on this drug or any other drug, that is one thing. But let the people thst want to get off of do so. They need to know how to do that and there are ways to withdraw from all drugs. I am only here to help those that want to do that. Drugs are not for evryone. Some people want to get off of them. Let them hear.
Lou
Posted by Cam W. on February 15, 2002, at 10:25:04
In reply to Re: Lou's answer to Cam and others » Cam W., posted by lou pilder on February 15, 2002, at 9:32:39
> Cam and others.
> Ambien is classified as a scehdual IV drug by the federal government.
> LouLou - So? I do not believe that under the definition of a Schedule IV Drug you will find the words "evil" or "do not use".
Also, if you are going to advise on how to withdraw from any drug, please give them the facts on the approved methods of weaning from a substance, not just the anti-drug rhetoric of those with personal agendas. Preferably, advise should be offered to those who ask for it, rather than being given in an unsolicited manner.
- Cam
Posted by jane d on February 15, 2002, at 10:44:29
In reply to Re: withdrawing from sleeping pill addiction at home?, posted by Dona on February 14, 2002, at 19:49:25
Hi Dona,
You seem to have raised a lot of general issues here. I'm not sure I understand your own situation. Are you saying that you only abuse the ambien for a few days a month similar to a drinking binge? And then you take it continually to keep yourself high for several days? If you don't have ambien do you substitute something else? Do you use it at all the rest of the time?You say that you function pretty well. If you are not risking overdose by swallowing handfuls at once and you are managing to hold your job I don't see what the harm is in trying to quit with your husband's help again. You would still have the option of a treatment program later if it didn't work.
I can understand how it would be hard to tell your doctor at this point. If it were me I think I would try to find the nerve to tell him. After all another way of looking at this is that you need to escape for a couple of days a month because the Prozac isn't working adequately. But you do risk being stigmatized as other people here will tell you.
I'm not very helpful I'm afraid but I am wishing you luck.
Jane
Posted by Alan on February 15, 2002, at 11:21:39
In reply to For those that are debating to go off Ambien, posted by lou pilder on February 15, 2002, at 9:58:25
(Ambien) is listed as a class IV drug along with benzodiazapines and narcotics by the Federal Government. Lou
*********************************************Wrong. BZD's are not scheduled the same as heroin or cocaine and for good reason. Even if they were, there is no medicinal value in cocaine and heroin. To equate the two are common scare tacticts spewed by these anti-benzo groups to the vulnerable anxiety sufferer to scaremonger for evangelical purposes.
You're mixing politics and religion with medicine my friend and it is not only wrong but highly unethical. Please stop corrupting this fine informational site with this type of disinformation.
Alan.
Posted by lou pilder on February 15, 2002, at 11:23:18
In reply to Re: Lou's answer to Cam and others » lou pilder, posted by Cam W. on February 15, 2002, at 10:25:04
> > Cam and others.
> > Ambien is classified as a scehdual IV drug by the federal government.
> > Lou
>
> Lou - So? I do not believe that under the definition of a Schedule IV Drug you will find the words "evil" or "do not use".
>
> Also, if you are going to advise on how to withdraw from any drug, please give them the facts on the approved methods of weaning from a substance, not just the anti-drug rhetoric of those with personal agendas. Preferably, advise should be offered to those who ask for it, rather than being given in an unsolicited manner.
>
> - CamCam and others;
It appears that Dona was asking for advise from people on this board, for she "didn't want to go into a treatment center" and she didn't want more Ambien in the mail. Now I am responding to that plea from a destressed person just like I would repond to a destess from a boat that was looking for direction out of a lost posistion. For why else would Dona write to the people on this board? Now it moves me to try to help Dona and not ignore her SOS. I know of a harbor that she can reach. It is chaired by Yvonne Day. The group helps people find their way out of the addiction to drugs like Ambien. For those of you that wish to defame her, call her yourself in Columbus, Ohio and talk with her. I did and I have referred people to her group and they have had their addiction released. There are some people that believe that they should stay on a drug untill death. There are others that believe that you can go "on and off" a drug. They should not call her for they help people to withdraw permenatly.
Lou
Posted by IsoM on February 15, 2002, at 11:23:53
In reply to Can I withdraw from sleeping pill addiction at hom, posted by Dona on February 9, 2002, at 13:14:28
Dona, (& any others), my original answer about not having your husband have to take responsibility for getting you to stop Ambien comes from my heart.
Your situation is diff than mine was. You are, no doubt, totally diff than my husband was (is). But through years of depending on me for his strength (he'd beg me sometimes to stay home with him) & telling me he loved me & needed me, he grew to hate himself & me. The marriage disintegrated & he walked out. I had wanted nothing but to help & tried not to force anything on him but to reason or talk with him. But we should probably never had married in the first place.
What I'm saying is the weight was so, so very much for me to bear & I lost all respect for him as he grew to hate me & I felt like he used me for his conscience instead of trying to get help (he refused to discuss anything with pdocs or therapists - said they didn't know anything).
Like I said, your relationship may be entirely diff but I did love him very much at one time & really wanted to do my best to help. The load can become too much.
Posted by lou pilder on February 15, 2002, at 12:07:41
In reply to Re: We must hear from Dona, posted by Squiggles on February 15, 2002, at 11:31:05
> > > > Cam and others.
> > > > Ambien is classified as a scehdual IV drug by the federal government.
> > > > Lou
> > >
> > > Lou - So? I do not believe that under the definition of a Schedule IV Drug you will find the words "evil" or "do not use".
> > >
> > > Also, if you are going to advise on how to withdraw from any drug, please give them the facts on the approved methods of weaning from a substance, not just the anti-drug rhetoric of those with personal agendas. Preferably, advise should be offered to those who ask for it, rather than being given in an unsolicited manner.
> > >
> > > - Cam
> >
> > Cam and others;
> > It appears that Dona was asking for advise from people on this board, for she "didn't want to go into a treatment center" and she didn't want more Ambien in the mail. Now I am responding to that plea from a destressed person just like I would repond to a destess from a boat that was looking for direction out of a lost posistion. For why else would Dona write to the people on this board? Now it moves me to try to help Dona and not ignore her SOS. I know of a harbor that she can reach. It is chaired by Yvonne Day. The group helps people find their way out of the addiction to drugs like Ambien. For those of you that wish to defame her, call her yourself in Columbus, Ohio and talk with her. I did and I have referred people to her group and they have had their addiction released. There are some people that believe that they should stay on a drug untill death. There are others that believe that you can go "on and off" a drug. They should not call her for they help people to withdraw permenatly.
> > Lou
>
>
>
> Well Lou,
>
> Maybe I just lucked out on compassion, but after
> donating time and money to this group, there came
> a point when I had a stroke/seizure episode from
> withdrawal. If it were not for my husband's good
> sense to reinstate me on the dose, I would have
> followed (at least someone noticed) one of the leader's
> advice to keep going through the head stroke, and
> not be so weak. So much for compassion.
>
> SquigglesSqiggles;
Please tell us about your withdraw experiance. It sounds like you wanted to get off the drug but could not, for you had a siezure. Your contribution in this area will be tremendously valuable to the readers of thie board. Please tell us more.
Lou
Posted by Elizabeth on February 15, 2002, at 12:11:08
In reply to Re: withdrawing from sleeping pill addiction at home?, posted by lou pilder on February 14, 2002, at 17:03:45
> I have read so many reports that are saying something much different than you are saying about Ambian. Onr report says that it a favorered drug on the street for drug addicts. Other reports show withdraw as bad as BZs. Do yu want me to share those with you. ?
I don't draw any conclusions based on isolated "reports" that come from individuals who claim to have had a particular reaction. It appears from some of your (numerous) posts that this is what you meant by "reports."
Since you do seem to be interested in collecting "reports" from individuals about their experiences with Ambien and with benzodiazepines, I will share mine. I first took Ambien in 1996, and I continued taking it for about 1.5 years, nearly every night. I was taking 20 mg/night, which is twice the usual dose (I had tried 10 and 15 mg without success). I didn't have any problem discontinuing it when I no longer needed it. My experience with Ambien was a positive one: it was an effective sleeping pill that did not lose its effectiveness over time. I wonder what would happen if I tried posting my "report" of my experience on your anti-drug site.
It is true that some recreational users enjoy taking Ambien (this doesn't mean that they are "addicted" to it, although some, like Dona, probably are). That has nothing to do with whether or not Ambien causes any serious withdrawal symptoms.
Ambien has been studied for periods longer than the officially recommended 7-10 days. This did not result in any serious discontinuation symptoms either. The 7-10 day recommendation is included in the product labelling for all drugs that are labelled for insomnia -- *regardless* of pharmacologic mechanism.
Ambien has indeed been placed in Schedule IV by the federal government. That means it has low abuse potential. It doesn't say anything about withdrawal symptoms. Drugs like anticonvulsants, antihypertensives, and glucocorticoids, which can have very serious withdrawal symptoms if discontinued abruptly, are not controlled substances at all; some drugs that do not cause any withdrawal symptoms, such as marijuana and LSD, are in Schedule I.
Once again, Ambien is not a benzodiazepine. It's also not zaleplon (Sonata). The generic name of Ambien is zolpidem. If you really want to help people, as you claim, you might try getting your facts right. I think that if you did that, people might take you more seriously.
I don't know of anyone who is trying to have you removed from this site. What I see is you making a lot of claims -- some of which are simply factually wrong -- and a lot of people disagreeing with you. Disagreeing is not censorship.
-elizabeth
Posted by Squiggles on February 15, 2002, at 12:15:53
In reply to Lou asks Sqiggles to tell us » Squiggles, posted by lou pilder on February 15, 2002, at 12:07:41
> > > > > Cam and others.
> > > > > Ambien is classified as a scehdual IV drug by the federal government.
> > > > > Lou
> > > >
> > > > Lou - So? I do not believe that under the definition of a Schedule IV Drug you will find the words "evil" or "do not use".
> > > >
> > > > Also, if you are going to advise on how to withdraw from any drug, please give them the facts on the approved methods of weaning from a substance, not just the anti-drug rhetoric of those with personal agendas. Preferably, advise should be offered to those who ask for it, rather than being given in an unsolicited manner.
> > > >
> > > > - Cam
> > >
> > > Cam and others;
> > > It appears that Dona was asking for advise from people on this board, for she "didn't want to go into a treatment center" and she didn't want more Ambien in the mail. Now I am responding to that plea from a destressed person just like I would repond to a destess from a boat that was looking for direction out of a lost posistion. For why else would Dona write to the people on this board? Now it moves me to try to help Dona and not ignore her SOS. I know of a harbor that she can reach. It is chaired by Yvonne Day. The group helps people find their way out of the addiction to drugs like Ambien. For those of you that wish to defame her, call her yourself in Columbus, Ohio and talk with her. I did and I have referred people to her group and they have had their addiction released. There are some people that believe that they should stay on a drug untill death. There are others that believe that you can go "on and off" a drug. They should not call her for they help people to withdraw permenatly.
> > > Lou
> >
> >
> >
> > Well Lou,
> >
> > Maybe I just lucked out on compassion, but after
> > donating time and money to this group, there came
> > a point when I had a stroke/seizure episode from
> > withdrawal. If it were not for my husband's good
> > sense to reinstate me on the dose, I would have
> > followed (at least someone noticed) one of the leader's
> > advice to keep going through the head stroke, and
> > not be so weak. So much for compassion.
> >
> > Squiggles
>
> Sqiggles;
> Please tell us about your withdraw experiance. It sounds like you wanted to get off the drug but could not, for you had a siezure. Your contribution in this area will be tremendously valuable to the readers of thie board. Please tell us more.
> Lou
Well,I almost died. I was sick for a month after the
electric storm and then axe like stroke in the back
of the head. I coudn't walk and my blood pressure
was going up and down; I could not put my head on
the pillow becuase it hurt, and I would fall asleep
without noticing it and come out disoriented and the
same again 4 times a day, and sweats. I was very
sick, but the worst thing about it was that
I was told to go through with it; but my husband
raised my dose from 0.125 to 0.250, then next two
weeks, anohter "stroke", and he raised to 0.50 and
i started to get better - eventually got sicker,
and now back to 1.0 the original dose - and getting
better.This is K - the anti-convulsant.
But it was my husband who helped me; the person
on the group i relied on, told me to go through
to 0 - which I am glad i did not; as my doctor
allowed me to raise it as much as i needed. The
group is very anti reinstatement on the grounds
that once damage is done there is no use in
taking the drugs again. This is false and dangerous
advice.I think i am lucky to be alive.
Squiggles
Posted by Elizabeth on February 15, 2002, at 12:26:28
In reply to Re: withdrawing from sleeping pill addiction at home?, posted by Dona on February 14, 2002, at 19:49:25
Dona,
I still think that it might be worthwhile to try to stop taking Ambien at home, with your husband's help. I'd suggest making a contract with your husband saying that you won't take any more Ambien and agreeing to seek treatment for drug abuse (your psychiatrist should be able to tell you where the best treatment center in your area is) if you aren't able to stop. (The terms of the contract should be worded very clearly -- no cheating! :-) )
If you do find that you need professional help in order to stay off of Ambien, that doesn't necessarily mean that you have to go to a hospital. There are outpatient substance abuse treatment centers in lots of places. If you end up telling your psychiatrist about your problem with Ambien, stress that you really want to get help as an outpatient, if possible.
Discontinuing Ambien is not dangerous and shouldn't be a problem. The hardest part will be conquering the cravings.
BTW: have you gotten on a different sleeping pill, and if so, which one?
-elizabeth
Posted by lou pilder on February 15, 2002, at 13:01:08
In reply to Re: withdrawing from sleeping pill addiction at home? » lou pilder, posted by Elizabeth on February 15, 2002, at 12:11:08
> > I have read so many reports that are saying something much different than you are saying about Ambian. Onr report says that it a favorered drug on the street for drug addicts. Other reports show withdraw as bad as BZs. Do yu want me to share those with you. ?
>
> I don't draw any conclusions based on isolated "reports" that come from individuals who claim to have had a particular reaction. It appears from some of your (numerous) posts that this is what you meant by "reports."
>
> Since you do seem to be interested in collecting "reports" from individuals about their experiences with Ambien and with benzodiazepines, I will share mine. I first took Ambien in 1996, and I continued taking it for about 1.5 years, nearly every night. I was taking 20 mg/night, which is twice the usual dose (I had tried 10 and 15 mg without success). I didn't have any problem discontinuing it when I no longer needed it. My experience with Ambien was a positive one: it was an effective sleeping pill that did not lose its effectiveness over time. I wonder what would happen if I tried posting my "report" of my experience on your anti-drug site.
>
> It is true that some recreational users enjoy taking Ambien (this doesn't mean that they are "addicted" to it, although some, like Dona, probably are). That has nothing to do with whether or not Ambien causes any serious withdrawal symptoms.
>
> Ambien has been studied for periods longer than the officially recommended 7-10 days. This did not result in any serious discontinuation symptoms either. The 7-10 day recommendation is included in the product labelling for all drugs that are labelled for insomnia -- *regardless* of pharmacologic mechanism.
>
> Ambien has indeed been placed in Schedule IV by the federal government. That means it has low abuse potential. It doesn't say anything about withdrawal symptoms. Drugs like anticonvulsants, antihypertensives, and glucocorticoids, which can have very serious withdrawal symptoms if discontinued abruptly, are not controlled substances at all; some drugs that do not cause any withdrawal symptoms, such as marijuana and LSD, are in Schedule I.
>
> Once again, Ambien is not a benzodiazepine. It's also not zaleplon (Sonata). The generic name of Ambien is zolpidem. If you really want to help people, as you claim, you might try getting your facts right. I think that if you did that, people might take you more seriously.
>
> I don't know of anyone who is trying to have you removed from this site. What I see is you making a lot of claims -- some of which are simply factually wrong -- and a lot of people disagreeing with you. Disagreeing is not censorship.
>
> -elizabethElizebeth;
Forgive me for getting the "Z" drugs mmixed up. I have a rare neurological condition that associates words into music. Right now, since you brought up the Z drugs, I am hearing "Zippity-Do-Dah" This will play for a while and then I will hear another song in the same asssociation. It goes on like a pinball machine. It is part of my affliction and I can do nothing about it. The songs come from my memory and are triggered by any association. I am now hearing "Xanadu" even thogh it starts with an X. So forgive me and I will try to not let my condition cause what you observed.
Lou
Posted by Dona on February 15, 2002, at 13:28:26
In reply to Lou's answer to Elizebeth( partial) » Elizabeth, posted by lou pilder on February 15, 2002, at 13:01:08
I never expected there to be so much controversy and anger generated by my question. Frankly, the differing opinions don't help me much. Right now I am taking 10mg of ambien at night that my husband gives me and 100mg of Seroquel that my psych prescribed for sleep (although she has never known about my ambien problem). I seem to be sleeping although I still get terrified at night that I won't sleep. My biggest problem now, though, is fighting the craving to take the ambien during the day to "zone" out when I do not want to deal with life. But as long as I do not have any of the med, I will have to come up with coping ways to deal with the cravings. I hope I can. WhatI hoped to get from this group was support---it does not matter what anyone thinks about ambien's addictivenes--for me, I know it is.My other biggest fear now also is how to tell the truth to my therapist and psyc. dr next week--I want to be a good person and hate having to admit how much I have been lying
Posted by jane d on February 15, 2002, at 13:38:59
In reply to What a firestorm I caused and an update, posted by Dona on February 15, 2002, at 13:28:26
Dona,
You didn't cause the firestorm. It flares up every so often no matter what anyone does. I'm sorry if I drew you back into this thread after it had changed into something unrelated to your questions. I'll be eagerly looking for your updates on how things are going for you (in another thread if you prefer).
Jane
Posted by lou pilder on February 15, 2002, at 13:42:35
In reply to What a firestorm I caused and an update, posted by Dona on February 15, 2002, at 13:28:26
> I never expected there to be so much controversy and anger generated by my question. Frankly, the differing opinions don't help me much. Right now I am taking 10mg of ambien at night that my husband gives me and 100mg of Seroquel that my psych prescribed for sleep (although she has never known about my ambien problem). I seem to be sleeping although I still get terrified at night that I won't sleep. My biggest problem now, though, is fighting the craving to take the ambien during the day to "zone" out when I do not want to deal with life. But as long as I do not have any of the med, I will have to come up with coping ways to deal with the cravings. I hope I can. WhatI hoped to get from this group was support---it does not matter what anyone thinks about ambien's addictivenes--for me, I know it is.My other biggest fear now also is how to tell the truth to my therapist and psyc. dr next week--I want to be a good person and hate having to admit how much I have been lying
Dona;
It is good that I hear from you and that you are looking for support. I can only tell you my experiance. I had your craving also. I know how you are sufffering. I believe that when a person takes a step in a direction , that they can go the rest of the way. You can overcome. Keep talking on this board, for if two heads are better than one, then 1000 heads are better than 2.
Lou
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