Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 75408

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Re: MAOI dose and dizziness Lisa01

Posted by Elizabeth on January 18, 2002, at 10:37:51

In reply to Re: MAOI diet short list-Lisa01, posted by Lisa01 on January 17, 2002, at 19:18:45

> I take only 10 mg. of Parnate once a day. When I upped it to twice a day (after 3 weeks at once) I had severe dizzy spells and was always cold.

I'm generally intolerant to cold, but I think that Parnate made it worse. The dizziness should subside after a while. Some people find that taking salt tablets relieves MAOI-induced dizziness.

> I have low blood pressure when not on meds so I didn't think it was a good thing to make it too low...

It's really not dangerous unless you start fainting, then you have to worry about falls!

> As I understand it, it can take 4-6 weeks to perceive therapeutic benefits even at higher doses, right?

It can, although I've encountered a number of people for whom it worked faster. But I wouldn't expect 10 mg/day to be a sufficient dose. 30 mg/day is generally the minimum effective dose, I think (some people might notice partial effects at 20).

-elizabeth

 

Re: So, what is left on the danger list?

Posted by Seamus2 on January 18, 2002, at 22:01:59

In reply to So, what is left on the danger list? , posted by Augusta on January 17, 2002, at 18:35:33

Salami was the only thing I had a bad reaction to while on Nardil.

But I was, and am (now on Parnate), still pretty careful.

Like Elizabeth, I still steer clear of
- sauerkraut
- miso soup
- yeast and protein extracts (e.g., Marmite, Bovril)
- certain herbal teas containing ingredients such as "ma huang" (ephedrine)

as well as
- liver (seems to be implicated in a lot of reactions even when it doesn't seem to be spoiled)

But I have no problem with
- coffee and other high-caffeine beverages


Seamus

 

Re: MAOI dose and dizziness

Posted by Seamus2 on January 18, 2002, at 22:11:19

In reply to Re: MAOI dose and dizziness Lisa01, posted by Elizabeth on January 18, 2002, at 10:37:51

> I'm generally intolerant to cold, but I think that Parnate made it worse.< <

Jeez, you can say that again! I restarted on Dec 18 and have been freezing ever since. I take thyroid, on top of it, too, but the peripheral circulation just shuts down completely. Maybe if I quit smoking .... and that 1.5 cups of coffee in the morning doesn't help, I don't think.


> > I have low blood pressure when not on meds so I didn't think it was a good thing to make it too low...
>
> It's really not dangerous unless you start fainting, then you have to worry about falls!
>

I have naturally low BP too. Just get used to bending over and putting your head between your legs. Actually, nobody realy looks at you funny, and it beats passing out! (Was doing this long before MAOI therapy)


> > As I understand it, it can take 4-6 weeks to perceive therapeutic benefits even at higher doses, right?
>
> It can, although I've encountered a number of people for whom it worked faster. But I wouldn't expect 10 mg/day to be a sufficient dose. 30 mg/day is generally the minimum effective dose, I think (some people might notice partial effects at 20).

FOr me it kicked in 80% within three weeks, 50% within two; and noticeable at 30 mg/day within one week.

And I get by on 20 mg/day for maintenance, but woe if I think I can get along without it.

Seamus

 

Re: MAOI diet short list Elizabeth

Posted by Rick on January 19, 2002, at 4:20:14

In reply to Re: MAOI diet short list Rick, posted by Elizabeth on January 18, 2002, at 10:12:45

> The "pretzel excuse?" This is one I'm not familiar with (and I try to keep up with the latest research in excuses!).

Referring to George W. Bush's recent brief fainting spell after he choked on a pretzel. Not to make light of Mr. Bush's travails, but since this was a Presidential Excuse, I'm shocked that it hasn't surfaced in your excusional research. I suppose you have an excuse?

> Did the fludrocortisone have any bad side effects?

No.

Rick

 

Re: MAOI dose and dizziness-Seamus

Posted by Lisa01 on January 19, 2002, at 9:11:31

In reply to Re: MAOI dose and dizziness, posted by Seamus2 on January 18, 2002, at 22:11:19


> FOr me it kicked in 80% within three weeks, 50% within two; and noticeable at 30 mg/day within one week.
>
> And I get by on 20 mg/day for maintenance, but woe if I think I can get along without it.

Seamus and Elizabeth: Thanks for all the info. I'm sure you've heard of a book called Feeling Good by David Burns--it's there that I got the idea that 10-20 mg. of Parnate would be sufficient. Also my MD didn't want to put me on any more than 10 at first.

Seamus, how long before you reduced to a maintenance dose? I haven't gone to 20 mg. yet. but plan to start next week. Also, do you do, or have you done, any CBT? That is what I hope will be my permanent solution as I hear these meds "poop out" and I don't want to be switching back and forth with other meds. Do you ever fear you are messing with your brain chemistry and may permanently screw it up?

Lisa

 

Re: MAOI diet short list and Zyvox

Posted by fran on January 19, 2002, at 23:17:44

In reply to Re: MAOI diet short list, posted by Seamus2 on January 15, 2002, at 21:49:17

I'm on Effexor for depression, but do know a
little about MAOI and that they require diet
restrictions which are not necessary for SSRIs.
But now I've been started on Zyvox,which is a new
antibiotic which has been out only about 2 months.
It's used for serious infections with "super-bugs",
i.e. bacteria that are resistant to all other
existing antibiotics. Amazingly, it requires
adherence to an MAOI diet, but I found this out
only by looking it up in the new PDR. My doctor
(an infectious diseases specialist) didn't tell me
and there was no warning on the prescription
bottle. *UNBELIEVABLE!!!*
So, I'm very grateful to all of you for having
already shared your experiences on-line. I had
been following the old MAOI recommendations
(sloppily provided even by my recently trained
pharmacist), and was just resigned to a month or
two of those restrictions (I totally admire all of
you who have been doing this long-term). But even
there, I had a ton of unanswered questions. Now
I'm a much happier camper!
BTW, I did read in a reputable (I think) article
that, if you stop an MAOI, you have to continue
the diet restrictions for an additional 4 weeks.
Have any of you come across any information like
this, or to the contrary?
Thanks again, to all of you!

 

Re: MAOI diet short list and Zyvox fran

Posted by Rick on January 20, 2002, at 0:15:34

In reply to Re: MAOI diet short list and Zyvox , posted by fran on January 19, 2002, at 23:17:44

> BTW, I did read in a reputable (I think) article
> that, if you stop an MAOI, you have to continue
> the diet restrictions for an additional 4 weeks.
> Have any of you come across any information like
> this, or to the contrary?

It was a couple years ago, but I recall that I had to stay on the diet *at least* a couple weeks after stopping Nardil. Same hold-off period applies to taking meds that are verboten with MAOI's such as other AD's and many OTC cold remedies. Not surprising, then, that some of my side effects, especially severe sexual dysfunction, persisted for more than three weeks afer I stopped Nardil.

Rick

 

Re: MAOI diet short list and Zyvox

Posted by djmmm on January 20, 2002, at 0:31:33

In reply to Re: MAOI diet short list and Zyvox , posted by fran on January 19, 2002, at 23:17:44

> I'm on Effexor for depression, but do know a
> little about MAOI and that they require diet
> restrictions which are not necessary for SSRIs.
> But now I've been started on Zyvox,which is a new
> antibiotic which has been out only about 2 months.
> It's used for serious infections with "super-bugs",
> i.e. bacteria that are resistant to all other
> existing antibiotics. Amazingly, it requires
> adherence to an MAOI diet, but I found this out
> only by looking it up in the new PDR. My doctor
> (an infectious diseases specialist) didn't tell me
> and there was no warning on the prescription
> bottle. *UNBELIEVABLE!!!*
> So, I'm very grateful to all of you for having
> already shared your experiences on-line. I had
> been following the old MAOI recommendations
> (sloppily provided even by my recently trained
> pharmacist), and was just resigned to a month or
> two of those restrictions (I totally admire all of
> you who have been doing this long-term). But even
> there, I had a ton of unanswered questions. Now
> I'm a much happier camper!
> BTW, I did read in a reputable (I think) article
> that, if you stop an MAOI, you have to continue
> the diet restrictions for an additional 4 weeks.
> Have any of you come across any information like
> this, or to the contrary?
> Thanks again, to all of you!

an irreversible covalent bond is formed by conventional MAOIs (non-reversible) so if discontinued, a new MAO enzyme must be resynthesized before "normal" MAO activity resumes... 4 weeks, seems a little excessive, but Im not a doctor.

also..Zyvox interacts with MAOIs because it is a MAOI itself,--so it also has potential interactions with SSRIs, TCAs, bupropion, and Buspar

 

Re: MAOI dose and dizziness-Seamus

Posted by Seamus2 on January 20, 2002, at 9:37:49

In reply to Re: MAOI dose and dizziness-Seamus, posted by Lisa01 on January 19, 2002, at 9:11:31


> Seamus, how long before you reduced to a maintenance dose? I haven't gone to 20 mg. yet. but plan to start next week. Also, do you do, or have you done, any CBT? < <


I'll probably drop back at the start of my sixth week.

No CBT. I think my brain IS screwed up already, and look on the Parnate as a vitamin to keep it working well.

Seamus

 

Re: MAOI dose and dizziness-Seamus Lisa01

Posted by Krazy Kat on January 20, 2002, at 18:13:42

In reply to Re: MAOI dose and dizziness-Seamus, posted by Lisa01 on January 19, 2002, at 9:11:31

Lisa:

Sorry I'm jumping in here - my understanding is that you can't mess with your brain chemistry - the effects of drugs, legal or otherwise, are fleeting.

Perhaps if we Could change our "chemistries", we could take a med once and then be cured. That Would be nice.

- KK

 

Re: MAOI dose and dizziness-Seamus

Posted by djmmm on January 20, 2002, at 18:47:33

In reply to Re: MAOI dose and dizziness-Seamus Lisa01, posted by Krazy Kat on January 20, 2002, at 18:13:42

> Lisa:
>
> Sorry I'm jumping in here - my understanding is that you can't mess with your brain chemistry - the effects of drugs, legal or otherwise, are fleeting.
>
> Perhaps if we Could change our "chemistries", we could take a med once and then be cured. That Would be nice.
>
> - KK

well, not exactly...the problem is we do mess with our brain chemistry, and the greater problem is, for many, the effect is not fleeting...

many drugs are neurotoxins...drugs like MDMA (Ecstasy) and the popular diet drug Pondomin have the potential to "manipulate" the serotonin system, by destroying axon terminals, and even the very neurons that contain the mitochondria which produce the serotonin.

SSRI, TCAs and all other Psychiatric drugs seem to change brain chemistry, too. They too manipulate the serotonin system, perhaps not to the extent that MDMA does, but the result would be considered long-term downregulation of specific serotonin (or norepineprine) receptor sites.

 

Re: MAOI dose and dizziness-Seamus

Posted by Lisa01 on January 20, 2002, at 19:02:47

In reply to Re: MAOI dose and dizziness-Seamus, posted by djmmm on January 20, 2002, at 18:47:33

> > Sorry I'm jumping in here - my understanding is that you can't mess with your brain chemistry - the effects of drugs, legal or otherwise, are fleeting.

> > Perhaps if we Could change our "chemistries", we could take a med once and then be cured. That Would be nice.
> >
That certainly seems to be true in the sense that, once meds are out of our systmes, the original symptoms re-emerge.

> well, not exactly...the problem is we do mess with our brain chemistry, and the greater problem is, for many, the effect is not fleeting...
>
> many drugs are neurotoxins...drugs like MDMA (Ecstasy) and the popular diet drug Pondomin have the potential to "manipulate" the serotonin system, by destroying axon terminals, and even the very neurons that contain the mitochondria which produce the serotonin.
>
> SSRI, TCAs and all other Psychiatric drugs seem to change brain chemistry, too. They too manipulate the serotonin system, perhaps not to the extent that MDMA does, but the result would be considered long-term downregulation of specific serotonin (or norepineprine) receptor sites.

I can't attest the technical accuracy of these statements but I'll take your word on it!! What I'm simply thinking of is the strange things that occur when beginning a med. When I began Parnate, for example, I had twitching in my left eye, pulsing temples, and a mild, on and off headache. I just kept thinking: what is this doing to me?? It shows you how desperate we are for relief from symptoms--of Social Anxiety in my case--that we will put up with such things. I just sometimes wonder what the long-term result will be.

Best to all of you, and thanks for your input.

Lisa

 

Brain Chemistry/Lasting Social Phobia Benefits Lisa01

Posted by Rick on January 21, 2002, at 3:40:48

In reply to Re: MAOI dose and dizziness-Seamus, posted by Lisa01 on January 20, 2002, at 19:02:47

> It shows you how desperate we are for relief from symptoms--of Social Anxiety in my case--that we will put up with such things. I just sometimes wonder what the long-term result will be.

The general wisdom -- and I'm not saying it's 100% correct -- is that medication changes brain chemistry temporarily; while successful CBT can effect permanent changes.

On the other hand, the continuation vs. discontinuation summarized study below shows clear evidence of maintained post-treatment benefit from Klonopin (clonazepam), the med which has demonstrated the highest level of controlled-study efficacy to-date for SP. Despite the overblown fears of dependence, addiction (HUGELY exaggerated), and tolerance (excuse me, why have I been able to REDUCE my theraputic dose from 3mg to 1mg over two years??), this med is physically safer than AD's and generally a lot more tolerable. But I digress...I'd imagine the kinds of post-treatment Social Phobia benefits described here would likely apply to MAOI responders as well.

P.S. Despite my Klonopin boosterism I think if you stick it out you have a great chance of doing well with Parnate. And if even if not, there are quite a few meds than can help, with some promising new ones in development.

Rick
-----

J Clin Psychopharmacol 1998 Oct;18(5):373-8

Discontinuation of clonazepam in the treatment of social phobia.

Connor KM, Davidson JR, Potts NL, Tupler LA, Miner CM, Malik ML, Book SW, Colket JT, Ferrell F.

Department of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences, Duke University Medical Center, Durham, North Carolina 27710, USA.

Patients with social phobia who responded well to 6 months of open-label treatment with clonazepam were assigned to receive either continuation treatment (CT) with clonazepam for another 5 months, or to undergo discontinuation treatment (DT) using a clonazepam taper at the rate of 0.25 mg every 2 weeks, with double-blind placebo substitution. Clinical efficacy was compared between the CT and DT groups using three different social phobia scales. Benzodiazepine withdrawal symptoms were also measured. Relapse rates were 0 and 21.1% in the CT and DT groups, respectively. Subjects in the CT group generally showed a more favorable clinical response at midpoint and/or endpoint, although even in the DT group clinical response remained good. With respect to withdrawal symptoms, the rates were low in both groups (12.5% for CT and 27.7% for DT) with no real evidence suggesting significant withdrawal difficulties. At the end of 11 months of treatment with clonazepam, however, a more rapid withdrawal rate was associated with greater distress. This study offers preliminary evidence to suggest that continuation therapy with clonazepam in the treatment of social phobia is safe and effective, producing a somewhat greater clinical benefit than a slow-taper discontinuation regime. However, even in the DT group, withdrawal symptoms were not found to be a major problem. The study can be taken as supportive of benefit for longterm clonazepam treatment in social phobia, as well as being compatible with a reasonably good outcome after short-term treatment and slow taper.


 

Re: Brain Chemistry/Lasting Social Phobia Benefits Rick

Posted by spike4848 on January 21, 2002, at 9:47:56

In reply to Brain Chemistry/Lasting Social Phobia Benefits Lisa01, posted by Rick on January 21, 2002, at 3:40:48


> The general wisdom -- and I'm not saying it's 100% correct -- is that medication changes brain chemistry temporarily; while successful CBT can effect permanent changes.
responders as well.

Hey Rick,

I think we are pretty much in agreement. As I understand it, *any* active treatment *modified* brain chemistry. With medication, active treatment last only as long as the duration you take it. With CBT, you retrain behavior, and thus "treating" the brain for as long as the behavioral changes last. Often these changes can be life long. So if we are able to correct any maladaptive behavior contributing to our illness, and maintain that behavior, we can in a sense permenently change brain chemistry.

I am not sure if an "imbalance" in brain neurotransmiters levels is the etilogy of mood disorders. These imbalances we see may just be secondary to the real pathologic process. We simply just don't know enough about the brain.

We know the human brain in the most complex of all the organs. Many scientists believe we will never completely understand how it works. We need something "smarter" than our own brains to figure out the inner workings of the brain. Thus, we may never fully realize the pathology of mood disorders.

Spike

PS Rick ... I alway enjoy reading your posts ... they are very informative and insightful

 

Re: Great info of enormous usefulness nm Rick

Posted by Lorraine on January 21, 2002, at 11:40:32

In reply to Brain Chemistry/Lasting Social Phobia Benefits Lisa01, posted by Rick on January 21, 2002, at 3:40:48

> > It shows you how desperate we are for relief from symptoms--of Social Anxiety in my case--that we will put up with such things. I just sometimes wonder what the long-term result will be.
>
> The general wisdom -- and I'm not saying it's 100% correct -- is that medication changes brain chemistry temporarily; while successful CBT can effect permanent changes.
>
> On the other hand, the continuation vs. discontinuation summarized study below shows clear evidence of maintained post-treatment benefit from Klonopin (clonazepam), the med which has demonstrated the highest level of controlled-study efficacy to-date for SP. Despite the overblown fears of dependence, addiction (HUGELY exaggerated), and tolerance (excuse me, why have I been able to REDUCE my theraputic dose from 3mg to 1mg over two years??), this med is physically safer than AD's and generally a lot more tolerable. But I digress...I'd imagine the kinds of post-treatment Social Phobia benefits described here would likely apply to MAOI responders as well.
>
> P.S. Despite my Klonopin boosterism I think if you stick it out you have a great chance of doing well with Parnate. And if even if not, there are quite a few meds than can help, with some promising new ones in development.
>
> Rick
> -----
>
> J Clin Psychopharmacol 1998 Oct;18(5):373-8
>
> Discontinuation of clonazepam in the treatment of social phobia.
>
> Connor KM, Davidson JR, Potts NL, Tupler LA, Miner CM, Malik ML, Book SW, Colket JT, Ferrell F.
>
> Department of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences, Duke University Medical Center, Durham, North Carolina 27710, USA.
>
> Patients with social phobia who responded well to 6 months of open-label treatment with clonazepam were assigned to receive either continuation treatment (CT) with clonazepam for another 5 months, or to undergo discontinuation treatment (DT) using a clonazepam taper at the rate of 0.25 mg every 2 weeks, with double-blind placebo substitution. Clinical efficacy was compared between the CT and DT groups using three different social phobia scales. Benzodiazepine withdrawal symptoms were also measured. Relapse rates were 0 and 21.1% in the CT and DT groups, respectively. Subjects in the CT group generally showed a more favorable clinical response at midpoint and/or endpoint, although even in the DT group clinical response remained good. With respect to withdrawal symptoms, the rates were low in both groups (12.5% for CT and 27.7% for DT) with no real evidence suggesting significant withdrawal difficulties. At the end of 11 months of treatment with clonazepam, however, a more rapid withdrawal rate was associated with greater distress. This study offers preliminary evidence to suggest that continuation therapy with clonazepam in the treatment of social phobia is safe and effective, producing a somewhat greater clinical benefit than a slow-taper discontinuation regime. However, even in the DT group, withdrawal symptoms were not found to be a major problem. The study can be taken as supportive of benefit for longterm clonazepam treatment in social phobia, as well as being compatible with a reasonably good outcome after short-term treatment and slow taper.

 

Makes sense to me!...and Re PS: Thanks+same to you (nm) spike4848

Posted by Rick on January 21, 2002, at 13:00:37

In reply to Re: Brain Chemistry/Lasting Social Phobia Benefits Rick, posted by spike4848 on January 21, 2002, at 9:47:56

 

Re: Great info of enormous usefulness nm Lorraine

Posted by Rick on January 21, 2002, at 13:22:46

In reply to Re: Great info of enormous usefulness nm Rick, posted by Lorraine on January 21, 2002, at 11:40:32

Lorraine -

Glad you found it useful!

BTW, anything by Duke's JR (Jonathan RT) Davidson on anxiety -- especially social phobia -- is worth reading. He was listed as the second author in the Klonopin/clonazepam discontinuation abstract, and was the lead researcher for the original placebo-controlled study that demonstrated the med's appx 70% response rate in social phobia. Those just scratch the surface of the work he's done on SP etiology, measurement, and treatment.

Rick

 

Re: Some links Rick

Posted by Lorraine on January 21, 2002, at 19:25:28

In reply to Re: Great info of enormous usefulness nm Lorraine, posted by Rick on January 21, 2002, at 13:22:46

Rick:

You may have seen this

http://www.psychiatrist.com/supplenet/59s17/59s17toc.htm

> Lorraine -
>
> Glad you found it useful!
>
> BTW, anything by Duke's JR (Jonathan RT) Davidson on anxiety -- especially social phobia -- is worth reading. He was listed as the second author in the Klonopin/clonazepam discontinuation abstract, and was the lead researcher for the original placebo-controlled study that demonstrated the med's appx 70% response rate in social phobia. Those just scratch the surface of the work he's done on SP etiology, measurement, and treatment.
>
> Rick

 

Re: Some links Lorraine

Posted by Rick on January 21, 2002, at 21:45:43

In reply to Re: Some links Rick, posted by Lorraine on January 21, 2002, at 19:25:28

Lorraine -

Yes I've seen it, and it's nice that the Journal of Psychiatry (or Glaxxo Smith Kline??) has made that supplement available electronically for free.

The same journal also published an updated supplement on Social Anxiety in 2001. I had to order the hardcopy, purchased online from the Orders section at http://www.psychiatrist.com , but it was well worth the $10. (Don't know if that would be possible at the moment though, because I just visited the site to verify that this price still applies, and the Orders link doesn't seem to be functioning properly.)

I've pasted the table of contents for the 2001 supplement below.

Volume 62 2001 Supplement 1

Advances and Emerging Treatments in Social Phobia

3 Disclosure Statements.

4 Introduction: Advances and Emerging Treatments in Social Phobia. Jonathan R. T. Davidson

5 Social Phobia: Prevalence and Diagnostic Threshold. Ariel J. Lang and Murray B. Stein

11 Social Anxiety Disorder: An Unrecognized Problem in Primary Care. David J. Katzelnick and John H. Greist

17 Social Anxiety Disorder: Comorbidity and Its Implications. R. Bruce Lydiard

25 Social Phobia: Etiology, Neurobiology, and Treatment. Nicholas J. Coupland

36 Current Status of Psychotherapeutic Interventions for Social Phobia. Richard G. Heimberg

43 Treatment of Social Phobia With Antidepressants. Franklin R. Schneier

50 Benzodiazepines and Anticonvulsants for Social Phobia (Social Anxiety Disorder). James W. Jefferson


Rick

> Rick:
>
> You may have seen this
>
> http://www.psychiatrist.com/supplenet/59s17/59s17toc.htm
>
> > Lorraine -
> >
> > Glad you found it useful!
> >
> > BTW, anything by Duke's JR (Jonathan RT) Davidson on anxiety -- especially social phobia -- is worth reading. He was listed as the second author in the Klonopin/clonazepam discontinuation abstract, and was the lead researcher for the original placebo-controlled study that demonstrated the med's appx 70% response rate in social phobia. Those just scratch the surface of the work he's done on SP etiology, measurement, and treatment.
> >
> > Rick

 

Re: Brain Chemistry/Lasting Social Phobia Benefits Rick

Posted by Elizabeth on January 22, 2002, at 23:30:23

In reply to Brain Chemistry/Lasting Social Phobia Benefits Lisa01, posted by Rick on January 21, 2002, at 3:40:48

Lisa:

Medications typically work as long as you're taking them (sometimes people develop tolerance, but this doesn't generally happen with most common psychiatric drugs). The evidence regarding talk therapies (mainly CBT, although other talk therapies are now being studied too) is less clear. Advocates of CBT and other nonmedical therapies have claimed that these therapies get to the "root of the problem" and therefore can permanently cure mental disorders (medications that are used presently constitute "treatment" rather than a "cure"). On the other hand, some studies show that people who don't remain in therapy frequently relapse.

Personally, I didn't have much luck with CBT, but I think that each person is different. Another type of talk therapy, interpersonal therapy (IPT), seems promising for social phobia, and I think that group therapy can be helpful too (there are lots of CBT and IPT groups, some of which are specifically intended for people with SP).

I do think that, if you can afford it and if you can find a therapist who you "click" with, it's nice to be in *some* sort of talk therapy (depending on what you feel most comfortable with). My impression is that family or marital counseling can be especially helpful for couples or families where one or more members suffer from a mental disorder. On the other hand, I believe that it's usually not prudent to attempt to treat serious mental illness with talk therapy alone. (Social phobia comes in mild forms too, of course.)

Re Parnate dose:
Even many physicians don't know much about using MAOIs. Burns, if I recall, is a psychologist, so while the book you have is supposed to be a great self-help resource, I don't suggest relying on it for medical information.

-elizabeth

 

Re: David Burns is a psychiatrist

Posted by OldSchool on January 23, 2002, at 14:33:08

In reply to Re: Brain Chemistry/Lasting Social Phobia Benefits Rick, posted by Elizabeth on January 22, 2002, at 23:30:23

> Re Parnate dose:
> Even many physicians don't know much about using MAOIs. Burns, if I recall, is a psychologist, so while the book you have is supposed to be a great self-help resource, I don't suggest relying on it for medical information.

The above information is totally incorrect. I have David Burns's book Feeling Good right in front of me and it clearly says "David Burns, MD." His credentials are the following according to the book. "Clinical Associate Professor of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences, Stanford University School of Medicine."

Clearly Burns is a psychiatrist, not a psychologist. I have his latest updated Feeling Good and while Im not a big fan of any kind of talk therapy, I found the updated drugs section in the second half of the book to be OUTSTANDING. In fact, the drugs section of Feeling Good is worth the price of the book IMO. Its written in plain English and is clear, concise, useful information about psychiatry drugs used to treat depression. I would rely on this information anyday. One thing I like about Burns is he obviously does not believe in overmedicating his patients and this is clearly obvious in his drugs section of Feeling Good.

His drug information is first class info.

Old School
>

 

Re: David Burns is a psychiatrist

Posted by Lisa01 on January 23, 2002, at 15:13:36

In reply to Re: David Burns is a psychiatrist , posted by OldSchool on January 23, 2002, at 14:33:08

> Clearly Burns is a psychiatrist, not a psychologist. I have his latest updated "Feeling Good" and while Im not a big fan of any kind of talk therapy, I found the updated drugs section in the second half of the book to be OUTSTANDING. In fact, the drugs section of "Feeling Good" is worth the price of the book IMO. Its written in plain English and is clear, concise, useful information about psychiatry drugs used to treat depression. I would rely on this information anyday. One thing I like about Burns is he obviously does not believe in overmedicating his patients and this is clearly obvious in his drugs section of Feeling Good.
>
> His drug information is first class info.
>
> Old School

I was quite sure that he could not have prescribed drugs as a psychologist--I believe only M.D.'s and psychiatrists only have this 'power'--and he talks extensively in the book about his prescribing experience with the various drugs and the feedback from his patients.

I would also point out that I did not take the dosage advise from the book alone but also from my family physician, who thought that beginning on the 10 mg. dose would be best. He has since approved a move to twice daily with a close watch on side effects (I still get dizzy and disoriented following the afternoon dose, but am waiting this out hoping for the benefits!)

Lisa

 

Re: David Burns

Posted by Cecilia on January 24, 2002, at 3:50:02

In reply to Re: David Burns is a psychiatrist , posted by Lisa01 on January 23, 2002, at 15:13:36

> > Clearly Burns is a psychiatrist, not a psychologist. I have his latest updated "Feeling Good" and while Im not a big fan of any kind of talk therapy, I found the updated drugs section in the second half of the book to be OUTSTANDING. In fact, the drugs section of "Feeling Good" is worth the price of the book IMO. Its written in plain English and is clear, concise, useful information about psychiatry drugs used to treat depression. I would rely on this information anyday. One thing I like about Burns is he obviously does not believe in overmedicating his patients and this is clearly obvious in his drugs section of Feeling Good.
> >
> > His drug information is first class info.
> >
> > Old School
>
> I was quite sure that he could not have prescribed drugs as a psychologist--I believe only M.D.'s and psychiatrists only have this 'power'--and he talks extensively in the book about his prescribing experience with the various drugs and the feedback from his patients.
>
> I would also point out that I did not take the dosage advise from the book alone but also from my family physician, who thought that beginning on the 10 mg. dose would be best. He has since approved a move to twice daily with a close watch on side effects (I still get dizzy and disoriented following the afternoon dose, but am waiting this out hoping for the benefits!)
>
> Lisa

Does anyone know if anything happened to Dr. Burns? I used to read his web site (feelinggood.com) in which he would personally answer readers questions, but he stopped writing in it after Sep. 11 and now his web site has disappeared altogether. Dr. Burns is indeed a psychiatrist, but makes it clear in his web site that he has little faith in medication and believes CBT to be much more effective. I guess CBT works well for some people, but I`ve never figured how you make yourself BELIEVE the so-called rational thoughts, especially on an emotional, not just intellectual, level. And some of it is pretty oversimplistic, like the shame-attacking exersises where you do embarrassing things on purpose; for someone with deep rooted shame issues this makes about as much sense as curing broken bones by breaking a few more. Cecilia

 

Re: David Burns

Posted by Cecilia on January 24, 2002, at 4:32:09

In reply to Re: David Burns is a psychiatrist , posted by Lisa01 on January 23, 2002, at 15:13:36

> > Clearly Burns is a psychiatrist, not a psychologist. I have his latest updated "Feeling Good" and while Im not a big fan of any kind of talk therapy, I found the updated drugs section in the second half of the book to be OUTSTANDING. In fact, the drugs section of "Feeling Good" is worth the price of the book IMO. Its written in plain English and is clear, concise, useful information about psychiatry drugs used to treat depression. I would rely on this information anyday. One thing I like about Burns is he obviously does not believe in overmedicating his patients and this is clearly obvious in his drugs section of Feeling Good.
> >
> > His drug information is first class info.
> >
> > Old School
>
> I was quite sure that he could not have prescribed drugs as a psychologist--I believe only M.D.'s and psychiatrists only have this 'power'--and he talks extensively in the book about his prescribing experience with the various drugs and the feedback from his patients.
>
> I would also point out that I did not take the dosage advise from the book alone but also from my family physician, who thought that beginning on the 10 mg. dose would be best. He has since approved a move to twice daily with a close watch on side effects (I still get dizzy and disoriented following the afternoon dose, but am waiting this out hoping for the benefits!)
>
> Lisa

Does anyone know if anything happened to Dr. Burns? I used to read his web site (feelinggood.com) in which he would personally answer readers questions, but he stopped writing in it after Sep. 11 and now his web site has disappeared altogether. Dr. Burns is indeed a psychiatrist, but makes it clear in his web site that he has little faith in medication and believes CBT to be much more effective. I guess CBT works well for some people, but I`ve never figured how you make yourself BELIEVE the so-called rational thoughts, especially on an emotional, not just intellectual, level. And some of it is pretty oversimplistic, like the shame-attacking exersises where you do embarrassing things on purpose; for someone with deep rooted shame issues this makes about as much sense as curing broken bones by breaking a few more. Cecilia

 

Re: David Burns

Posted by OldSchool on January 24, 2002, at 10:30:56

In reply to Re: David Burns , posted by Cecilia on January 24, 2002, at 3:50:02

>
> Does anyone know if anything happened to Dr. Burns? I used to read his web site (feelinggood.com) in which he would personally answer readers questions, but he stopped writing in it after Sep. 11 and now his web site has disappeared altogether. Dr. Burns is indeed a psychiatrist, but makes it clear in his web site that he has little faith in medication and believes CBT to be much more effective. I guess CBT works well for some people, but I`ve never figured how you make yourself BELIEVE the so-called rational thoughts, especially on an emotional, not just intellectual, level. And some of it is pretty oversimplistic, like the shame-attacking exersises where you do embarrassing things on purpose; for someone with deep rooted shame issues this makes about as much sense as curing broken bones by breaking a few more. Cecilia


I have his book Feeling Good. I dont agree with much of the stuff in it. He criticizes the idea of depression having a chemical imbalance root cause, but then goes onto giving rave reviews of MAOIs. MAOIs are the most potent antidepressants available. What gives with that? What a hypocrite. Its obvious Burns is another idiot who has this mindblock many psychology buffs have to the basic fact that all of your thoughts, moods, feelings, perceptions, etc. are brain based. Everything starts in your brain.

He also admits bipolar disorder is heavily biological and genetic, but denies depression is biological. LOL

Old School


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