Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 87323

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Re: Provigil-Modafinil-Adrafinil? manowar

Posted by IsoM on January 3, 2002, at 16:34:52

In reply to Provigil-Modafinil-Adrafinil, posted by manowar on January 3, 2002, at 16:21:30

Keep us up-dated on how you find it working, please. I know how well it works for me but want to hear from others. My wonder drug isn't necessarily other's wonder drug.

Did you feel an immediate effect, manowar? Cause I know it took about a week for me to notice anything. Many said the first dose gave them a lift, but not me.

I know what you mean about other stims. I can feel my mood rise & then drop as it wears off. I want to feel normal all the time, not like a sine wave.

***************************************************************************************************

> I would just like to say that I'm very happy to be off the typical pstims. I just started 300 mg of Modafinil yest, and I've been taking Adrafinil before that for about 1 1/2 weeks.
>
> I'll tell you why I don't like the normal pstims: The effect of the drugs is so immediate, and its like if I did something creative, I didn't take credit for it-- I thought it was the drug. I don't like psychological dependence, and now I know why pdocs are very reluctant to use typical pstims.
>
> I hope the Modafinil works; I need to give it time.

 

Re: Provigil-Modafinil-Adrafinil? IsoM

Posted by manowar on January 3, 2002, at 20:12:52

In reply to Re: Provigil-Modafinil-Adrafinil? manowar, posted by IsoM on January 3, 2002, at 16:34:52

Hello IsoM,

> Keep us up-dated on how you find it working, please. I know how well it works for me but want to hear from others. My wonder drug isn't necessarily other's wonder drug.

>
> Did you feel an immediate effect, manowar? Cause I know it took about a week for me to notice anything. Many said the first dose gave them a lift, but not me.

Not at all. I felt nothing, and still don't.
When I took the Adrafinil I felt no side effects, but I didn't seem to experience any noticeable change in mood either. I guess for me it has to build up in my system. Funny thing is, I've been more vigilant over the last week. I mean it's hard to explain. It's like I don't mind doing the dishes, cleaning the bathroom, cooking dinner--generally functioning like a normal human being. My cognitive abilities have increased dramatically, for sure. Give me a couple more weeks, and I'll be able to give you a more definitive answer whether the drug is working or not. I might just be on a positive mood swing, and it may have nothing to do with the Adrafinil/Provigil. But I'm very optimistic at this point. I use the Burns Depression Index twice a week to chart my moods. For the last week and a half I've been in complete remission!

(Doesn't this post sound much like your post to me about 2-3 weeks ago:))


> I know what you mean about other stims. I can feel my mood rise & then drop as it wears off. I want to feel normal all the time, not like a sine wave.

That's a good one. I remember depending on pills throughout the day to help my mood; what a drag. I like the typical AD effect much better. I feel less like a druggy.

>
> ***************************************************************************************************
>
> > I would just like to say that I'm very happy to be off the typical pstims. I just started 300 mg of Modafinil yest, and I've been taking Adrafinil before that for about 1 1/2 weeks.
> >
> > I'll tell you why I don't like the normal pstims: The effect of the drugs is so immediate, and its like if I did something creative, I didn't take credit for it-- I thought it was the drug. I don't like psychological dependence, and now I know why pdocs are very reluctant to use typical pstims.
> >
> > I hope the Modafinil works; I need to give it time.

--Tim

 

Re: an Update update... IsoM

Posted by JGalt on January 4, 2002, at 0:29:44

In reply to Re: an Update update..., posted by IsoM on January 3, 2002, at 15:26:43

> Collette, just a note. Keep track of whether you seem to get sicker (infections) on Provigil. Some people feel their immune system becomes weaker. I've got one thing going for me at least - I never get sick. You can have a flu & sneeze in my face & I won't get sick. I only got pneumonia under the great stress of my marriage breakup & a son wanting to commit suicide. But others find they get sick easier on Provigil. Maybe some extra vitamins may help. > >

IsoM, I realize this is almost completely off topic but can you attribute anything to your immunity. I don't seem to get much either, except occasional sinus infections and a chronically congested nose/throat. I still catch colds every once in a while, though most drug stores have that nose spray (Zicort or something along those lines) that has been proven to make them go away faster...works for me. I also take vit. c, vit. e, and all the B's. What do you recommend?

JGalt

 

for manowar manowar

Posted by IsoM on January 4, 2002, at 1:31:53

In reply to Re: Provigil-Modafinil-Adrafinil? IsoM, posted by manowar on January 3, 2002, at 20:12:52

< ....Funny thing is, I've been more vigilant over the last week. I mean it's hard to explain. It's like I don't mind doing the dishes, cleaning the bathroom, cooking dinner--generally functioning like a normal human being. My cognitive abilities have increased dramatically, for sure.

**************************************************************************************************

Yes, your post sounds much like mine did. I'm so glad for you! All the ordinary humdrum things became enjoyable to do. And it feels like I really have a brain again. I've got an IQ way up there (no boasting, just stating facts) but a lot of good it did me when I couldn't seem to remember what I was even thinking about, or would be in the middle of a sentence & wonder what I was talking about.

My Mom told me when I was little, I was always singing. I do remember my brothers asking her to make me shut up. I wasn't even conscious of starting again, but lately, I'd find myself working at something & quietly singing or humming to myself. It's a sign of the improvement in my mood.

 

Immune System JGalt

Posted by IsoM on January 4, 2002, at 1:40:37

In reply to Re: an Update update... IsoM, posted by JGalt on January 4, 2002, at 0:29:44

I don't mind telling you, John, but why not e-mail me & I'll explain more. It's not some special brand of vitamins/minerals/herbs or anything like that, but I hate explaining much more here as it may sound like I'm some sort of nut to others. I can't even be sure if what I think may be the cause is actually the reason but what I've read suggests that it may be.

****************************************************************************************************
>
> IsoM, I realize this is almost completely off topic but can you attribute anything to your immunity. I don't seem to get much either, except occasional sinus infections and a chronically congested nose/throat. I still catch colds every once in a while, though most drug stores have that nose spray (Zicort or something along those lines) that has been proven to make them go away faster...works for me. I also take vit. c, vit. e, and all the B's. What do you recommend?
>
> JGalt

 

Re: Provigil-Modafinil-Adrafinil? manowar

Posted by kregpark@yahoo.com on January 4, 2002, at 3:22:26

In reply to Re: Provigil-Modafinil-Adrafinil? IsoM, posted by manowar on January 3, 2002, at 20:12:52

Not sure if you knew it or not but Pro"vigil" is named as such for it's "vigilance" promoting effects. I'm not certain but I think the term is even used in the PDR writeup. Anyhow - speaking of vigilance I have got to put vigilance to bed and choose to sleep!! Anybody else noticing that they're choosing not to sleep as much sometimes? :)

kregpark

p.s. amisulpride so far so good actually excellent. If it keeps up I'll post more but right now I'm just adding 12.5mg to 60Nardil+2.5Klonopin+100Provigil. For now I'm with Nardil but would like to try a switch to Eldepryl if this keeps working so well.

http://www.socialfear.com/

> Not at all. I felt nothing, and still don't.
> When I took the Adrafinil I felt no side effects, but I didn't seem to experience any noticeable change in mood either. I guess for me it has to build up in my system. Funny thing is, I've been more vigilant over the last week. I mean it's hard to explain. It's like I don't mind doing the dishes, cleaning the bathroom, cooking dinner--generally functioning like a normal human being. My cognitive abilities have increased dramatically, for sure. Give me a couple more weeks, and I'll be able to give you a more definitive answer whether the drug is working or not. I might just be on a positive mood swing, and it may have nothing to do with the Adrafinil/Provigil. But I'm very optimistic at this point. I use the Burns Depression Index twice a week to chart my moods. For the last week and a half I've been in complete remission!
>
> (Doesn't this post sound much like your post to me about 2-3 weeks ago:))
>
>
> > I know what you mean about other stims. I can feel my mood rise & then drop as it wears off. I want to feel normal all the time, not like a sine wave.
>
> That's a good one. I remember depending on pills throughout the day to help my mood; what a drag. I like the typical AD effect much better. I feel less like a druggy.
>
> >
> > ***************************************************************************************************
> >
> > > I would just like to say that I'm very happy to be off the typical pstims. I just started 300 mg of Modafinil yest, and I've been taking Adrafinil before that for about 1 1/2 weeks.
> > >
> > > I'll tell you why I don't like the normal pstims: The effect of the drugs is so immediate, and its like if I did something creative, I didn't take credit for it-- I thought it was the drug. I don't like psychological dependence, and now I know why pdocs are very reluctant to use typical pstims.
> > >
> > > I hope the Modafinil works; I need to give it time.
>
> --Tim

 

Provigil=Pstims for me

Posted by Hattree on January 4, 2002, at 9:41:47

In reply to Re: Provigil-Modafinil-Adrafinil? manowar, posted by kregpark@yahoo.com on January 4, 2002, at 3:22:26

I find that I respond Modafinil more or less the same way as I respond to the more traditional stimulants. It varies from dex, adderall, and phentermine not much more than they vary among themselves. Anyone else?

 

Provigil=Pstims for me

Posted by Hattree on January 4, 2002, at 9:42:17

In reply to Re: Provigil-Modafinil-Adrafinil? manowar, posted by kregpark@yahoo.com on January 4, 2002, at 3:22:26

I find that I respond Modafinil more or less the same way as I respond to the more traditional stimulants. It varies from dex, adderall, and phentermine not much more than they vary among themselves. Anyone else?

 

I'm happy for ya. IsoM

Posted by manowar on January 4, 2002, at 14:14:27

In reply to for manowar manowar, posted by IsoM on January 4, 2002, at 1:31:53

> < ....Funny thing is, I've been more vigilant over the last week. I mean it's hard to explain. It's like I don't mind doing the dishes, cleaning the bathroom, cooking dinner--generally functioning like a normal human being. My cognitive abilities have increased dramatically, for sure.
>
> **************************************************************************************************
>
> Yes, your post sounds much like mine did. I'm so glad for you! All the ordinary humdrum things became enjoyable to do. And it feels like I really have a brain again. I've got an IQ way up there (no boasting, just stating facts) but a lot of good it did me when I couldn't seem to remember what I was even thinking about, or would be in the middle of a sentence & wonder what I was talking about.
>
> My Mom told me when I was little, I was always singing. I do remember my brothers asking her to make me shut up. I wasn't even conscious of starting again, but lately, I'd find myself working at something & quietly singing or humming to myself. It's a sign of the improvement in my mood.
***********************************************
I hope that you continue to do well. Thanks, for taking the time to share posts with me a few weeks ago concerning Adrafinil/Modafinil. I really think the Adrafinil/Modafinil have made a huge difference so far, but I'm keeping my fingers crossed:)

--Tim


 

Optimistic too - but think this will really work! (nm) manowar

Posted by IsoM on January 4, 2002, at 14:27:36

In reply to I'm happy for ya. IsoM, posted by manowar on January 4, 2002, at 14:14:27

 

Re: Provigil-Modafinil-Adrafinil? kregpark@yahoo.com

Posted by Rick on January 5, 2002, at 0:58:52

In reply to Re: Provigil-Modafinil-Adrafinil? manowar, posted by kregpark@yahoo.com on January 4, 2002, at 3:22:26

>For now I'm with Nardil but would like to try a switch to Eldepryl if this keeps working so well.

I came into this thread late, but am forbidding myself to go back and review it right now because I *do* -- to answer your question -- sometimes deny myself sufficient sleep since starting Provigil.

But if you're talking about using Eldepryl (selegiline) as a replacement for Nardil for Social Phobia...I strongly recommend against it. That was a 100% absolute unmitigated disaster for me. Just *thinking* about my experience on solo selegiline gives me the shakes. Even a tiny dose that I later used to (successfully) offset slight Klonopin-induced dulling added back some anxiety. There was a study in which selegiline was tried as a primary SP treatment, based on evidence of dopamine deficiency in social phobics, and it was of no benefit. (Again, sorry if I've missed a key point of your idea by not reading the whole thread.)

Rick

P.S. Are you convinced that mixing MAOI's and Provigil is safe? I don't see why it wouldn't be, although the mfr cautions against the combo since it hasn't been studied.

 

Re: Immune System IsoM

Posted by Lorraine on January 5, 2002, at 11:44:48

In reply to Immune System JGalt, posted by IsoM on January 4, 2002, at 1:40:37

Wish I could convince you to keep it on the board--there are a number of people here who are working with the natural/immune system approach that could benefit. I know that I am trying to work with mine and I know Shelli is planning on seeing a naturopathic doctor in DC. Everything is an experiment with an N of 1 here (I happen to believe that that is true of meds as well.) I am trying to beef up my intestinal flora. My naturalpathic doctor tested my aminos and I was deficient in a number of neurotransmitter precursors. She then prescribed a custom blend amino acid mix, but after taking it a few days my depression worsened significantly. Plus, I know that I eat enough proteins so there must be some reason why I am not assimilating them. She is interested in doing a mercury toxicity challenge with me. Perhaps we could start a thread on this topic here that is not an argument against meds (I take them and don't see an end to that in this other venture) but just an exploration of what alternative, immune or herbal approaches other folks are using and what seems to be working or not. By the way, I am even going to start working with a healer (which I suppose certifies me as either crazy or open minded depending on your approach).

Lorraine

I don't mind telling you, John, but why not e-mail me & I'll explain more. It's not some special brand of vitamins/minerals/herbs or anything like that, but I hate explaining much more here as it may sound like I'm some sort of nut to others. I can't even be sure if what I think may be the cause is actually the reason but what I've read suggests that it may be.
>
> ****************************************************************************************************
> >
> > IsoM, I realize this is almost completely off topic but can you attribute anything to your immunity. I don't seem to get much either, except occasional sinus infections and a chronically congested nose/throat. I still catch colds every once in a while, though most drug stores have that nose spray (Zicort or something along those lines) that has been proven to make them go away faster...works for me. I also take vit. c, vit. e, and all the B's. What do you recommend?
> >
> > JGalt

 

Immune System (very LONG post)

Posted by IsoM on January 5, 2002, at 13:52:24

In reply to Re: Immune System IsoM, posted by Lorraine on January 5, 2002, at 11:44:48

So many alternative treatment for illness, depression, etc are controversial & I've found people can get such hurt feelings or such anger discussing this that I've veered away from saying much. But I'll give a quick breakdown. If anything seems offensive to anyone, I'm sorry - this is just my opinion.
First, I'll say that I managed a health food store many years ago & am a firm believer in good, solid nutrition & a healthy life style. But I feel most naturopaths are simply experimenting or trying different products as a rebound for the overdependence on meical & chemical interventions in our health. I've never seen anyone who's had continued benefits from seeing chiroproactors or naturopaths. They seem to go from one doctor to another, trying one treatment after treatment. Most seem to help initially, but soon fade away. Placebo effect? Possibly. I've tried these treatments too but found little help & heard far too much mumble-jumble from the practicioners. My science/physiology background is solid enough to know that they were spouting nonsense.

Okay, here's what I opine is the main cause of my good immune system, but I've done this for ,30 years. I don't think there's any magic overnight change that could happen. Three possible interactions:

1. I've always eaten soy (in the form of soy flour & soy beans) for < 30 years. I started doing it as a cheap way of including protein in my diet. All my bread & other baked products is made with added soy flour. I read years ago how the Cornell University had developed a bread with the protein content of meat with added soy flour, wheat germ, & milk powder. that's what started me. I'll snack on roasted soy nuts too. I happen to enjoy the taste! I make my own huumus with 1/3 cooked soy beans & 2/3 chick peas. I love it too. My 3-bean salad has cooked soy beans & my baked beans use soy beans. I use tofu, soy & other beans in many foods. If done properly, they taste great. I don't use expensive soy products that are now on the market. Soy milk is still just basically water & I don't like the taste of soy cheeses. While I ate soy to increase protein in my diet, soy has been found to boost the immune system wonderfully - honest research behind these claims. (See my note at the end of all this about soy.)

2. I just happen to love the taste of vegetables that belong to the brassicae family & is supposed to be so good for us. I never tire of brocolli, Brussel sprouts, kale, cabbage, etc. And tomatoes! Mmmmm! Also supposed to have so many health benefits.

3. Vitamin D. I'm not a sun-lover - my Mom has had & keeps on too, having pre-cancerous spots removed from her skin from sun damage. Because I've avoided the sun, I always took extra vitamin D. The 400 IU recommended is actually very low. It's to prevent any possible overdoses from this vitamin as it's stored in the liver & high continued doses can be toxic. I researched as much as possible & have taken about 1000-1500 IU daily instead. I want strong bones after menopause. I never thought vitamin D did anything else, but in reading science/medical journals recently, vitamin D has been found necessary in maintaining a strong immune system. Does the amount I take help me this way? Possibly.

It's not genetics. My two brothers look so old & both are overweight; one a little, the other very much so. Both get sick a lot. My poor dear Mom is sick a lot too with frequent colds, so I don't think it's good genetics. I haven't had a flu for 27 years now, don't get colds, or other infections. I did get pneumonia when my marriage was breaking up & one son was suicidal & had to be hospitalised. The stress at the time was overwhelming.

*About soy. There's a professor, Dr. Claire Hasler, at the Universtity of Illinois who's been researching soy benefits for over 20 years. She's a firm believer in using the whole soy bean & not just extracting the isoflavones & other components from soy. She believes (& so do I) that there may be other components in the whole food that acts synergistically together to bring the greatest benefits. It's similar to how beta-carotene was isolated from foods & made into capsules. The benefits were almost nil as it needs to be in the foods to have the most effect. In fact, isolated soy extracts has sometimes been thought to have an opposite effect from strenghtening the immune system. What I've read is not from sites promoting their own products & interests, but from bonafide science journals written about the research that's being done.

If you want to check out some of Dr. Hasler's views, here's a site she has:
http://www.ag.uiuc.edu/~stratsoy/expert/askhealth.html

**************************************************************************************************

> Wish I could convince you to keep it on the board--there are a number of people here who are working with the natural/immune system approach that could benefit. I know that I am trying to work with mine and I know Shelli is planning on seeing a naturopathic doctor in DC.

 

Re: Provigil-Modafinil-Adrafinil? Rick

Posted by christophrejmc on January 5, 2002, at 14:15:53

In reply to Re: Provigil-Modafinil-Adrafinil? kregpark@yahoo.com, posted by Rick on January 5, 2002, at 0:58:52

> Even a tiny dose that I later used to (successfully) offset slight Klonopin-induced dulling added back some anxiety.

Have you ever been on an amphetamine (Adderall, Dexedrine, Desoxyn)? If so, did it cause the same anxiety you experienced with selegiline? (As I'm sure you know, two of selegiline's metabolites are l-amphetamine and l-methamphetamine.)

I'm considering trying selegiline for my depression & social phobia. (Amphetamines don't really increase my anxiety (in fact, sometimes they relieve it).)

Thanks,
Christophre

 

Re: Provigil-Modafinil-Adrafinil? christophrejmc

Posted by Rick on January 5, 2002, at 15:03:13

In reply to Re: Provigil-Modafinil-Adrafinil? Rick, posted by christophrejmc on January 5, 2002, at 14:15:53

Christophre

No, never been on amphetamines. The selegiline metabolites are the closest I've come.

But the key here is that the amphetamine metabolites are likely *not* the cause of the anxiety selegiline produced. Instead -- despite the talk of dopamine deficiency in social phobia -- I find that dopaminergic agents in general make me a lot more anxious. And I'm not the only one...most attempts to harness dopamine for social phobia have been major failures, such as the selegiline study I mentioned as well as a pergolide study where the results were so negative that the study was quickly aborted.

That doesn't mean dopamine enhancement can't play a role in social phobia treatment in some as-yet undetermined fashion. But dopamine's a complex and rather mysterious substance that can have diametrically opposing mental and physical (e.g., blood pressure modulating) impact at different binding sites, etc.

If you do give selegiline a try, please let us know how it goes.

Rick

> > Even a tiny dose that I later used to (successfully) offset slight Klonopin-induced dulling added back some anxiety.
>
> Have you ever been on an amphetamine (Adderall, Dexedrine, Desoxyn)? If so, did it cause the same anxiety you experienced with selegiline? (As I'm sure you know, two of selegiline's metabolites are l-amphetamine and l-methamphetamine.)
>
> I'm considering trying selegiline for my depression & social phobia. (Amphetamines don't really increase my anxiety (in fact, sometimes they relieve it).)
>
> Thanks,
> Christophre

 

Prov, Mod, Adraf. AMISULPRIDE. THANKS ANDREW B. Rick

Posted by kregpark@yahoo.com on January 6, 2002, at 8:36:05

In reply to Re: Provigil-Modafinil-Adrafinil? christophrejmc, posted by Rick on January 5, 2002, at 15:03:13

I saw a small study with selegiline open trial around 12 people completed I think. I read it, was inconclusive, no clearcut benefit but a few had good results and the rest unchanged.

I do think selegiline can be very useful for SP in augmention. I've tried it myself 5mg both alone and in combo.
This in spite of the fact that taken alone I also experience agitation, prosexual but generally unpleasant effect.
I do think Elderpyl can probide an excellent "base" to build on for both cases of SP which are dopaminergically responsive as well as bipolar low.

Actually I have long liked Eldepryl, but have chosen Nardil because it was just easier to work with so far, requiring less complicated combo (majority of my history is Nardil alone or Nardil + Klonopin, no other meds).

Amisulpride has been incredible so far at 25mg with my current regimen. I mentioned the possibility of Eldepryl due to so far noticing a lowered energy level, (Not surprising with my regimen). Provigil and/or W/B at high enough doses cause me hair loss so I've hestitated going higher there with my regimen for now. Other stimulants and MAOI's do not give me that problem. Energy is generally fine, but I don't have my previous level of desire to excercise and exert physically. Always into athletics and not the type to sit and watch TV, (maybe is better but ...) I am not fired up so much about physical exercise as I have always been before. Well it's just like AndrewB said, something like the "desire to grab the tiger by the tail" - I think I'm talking the same kind of thing - a more DA / NE base for amilsulpride might work better (probably at >25mg amisulpride).

I threw out the Elderpyl idea a bit early, I will not be changing anytime soon. Things are going well and I can work with and perhaps even simplify my current regimen.

To Andrew B:
Wanted to thank you for sharing your invaluable experiences, thoughts, ideas, opinion.
If not for your posts I wouldn't have known a thing about amisulpride and, crucially, so much insight into how to *use* amisulpride succesfully for dysthmia and social phobia.
There *is* some info on Medline for Dysthmia, but not for SP, and there is nothing really to "catch the eye" that amisulpride is the "med to go with" for Dysthmia.

Reading through all your posts I was able to catch enough of your insight to give it a shot, and though time will tell even 1 week has been so eye-opening!

kregpark
http://www.socialfear.com/


> But the key here is that the amphetamine metabolites are likely *not* the cause of the anxiety selegiline produced. Instead -- despite the talk of dopamine deficiency in social phobia -- I find that dopaminergic agents in general make me a lot more anxious. And I'm not the only one...most attempts to harness dopamine for social phobia have been major failures, such as the selegiline study I mentioned as well as a pergolide study where the results were so negative that the study was quickly aborted.
> That doesn't mean dopamine enhancement can't play a role in social phobia treatment in some as-yet undetermined fashion. But dopamine's a complex and rather mysterious substance that can have diametrically opposing mental and physical (e.g., blood pressure modulating) impact at different binding sites, etc.
> do give selegiline a try, please let us know how it goes.
>
> Rick

> > Have you ever been on an amphetamine (Adderall, Dexedrine, Desoxyn)? If so, did it cause the same anxiety you experienced with selegiline? (As I'm sure you know, two of selegiline's metabolites are l-amphetamine and l-methamphetamine.)
> >
> > I'm considering trying selegiline for my depression & social phobia. (Amphetamines don't really increase my anxiety (in fact, sometimes they relieve it).)
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Christophre

 

Re: Provigil-Modafinil-Adrafinil? Rick

Posted by kregpark@yahoo.com on January 6, 2002, at 9:52:10

In reply to Re: Provigil-Modafinil-Adrafinil? christophrejmc, posted by Rick on January 5, 2002, at 15:03:13

Rick -

I had a hard time not acknowledging the "SP and dopamine" issue:
I definitely do *not* think dopamine agonists are required for all people with SP.
I'm also not too clear if dopaminergics work equally well for women as men.
I *do* think a majority of males with moderate to severe SP AND timidity AND high rejection sensitivity will attain their best results with dopamine augmentation.

Although I could cite solid suggesting evidence (best) or my own regimen and experience, instead I suggest your regimen acts as a dopamine and GABA agonist with less effect on SE and NE.

100 Provigil (5ht, DA): (effect perhaps partially indirect via GABA) Site specific but clearly has characteristics of DA agonist and ex vivo shows DA re-uptake. Higher doses lead to increased wakefullness, stimulant and (at first) euphoric properties. Is self-reinforcing. Increased libido, hair loss, effective antagonist of the atypical antipsychotic clozaril.

300 Serzone: Often "prosexual" (suggestive dopamine agonist or at worst lacks net DA decline, probably indirectly by primary action as 5ht-2 antagonist.) Common side effects: increased sex drive, agitation, irritablity, hypotension. Up to date info (Medline) indicates that Serzone has *weak* 5ht re-uptake and it's *primary* effect is as 5ht-2 antagonist.

1.25 Klonopin: May cause Increase libido (in PDR also), paradoxic reaction at high dose such as aggressive behavior, hyperactivity, increased locomotion, agitation, impulsiveness, increased self-confidence, reduced rejection sensitivity. Klonopin is a 2nd line MOOD STABILIZER for bipolar swings. This suggests Klonopin compensate for low dopamine levels. Also, Davidson (1992) suggest Klonopin may have dopaminergic agonism, possibly by the overall anti-serotonin properties of Klonopin (unlike Xanax for example, which is sometimes used as anti-depressant).

Sum: Provigil: DA++ (dose dependent)
Serzone: DA or DA+
Klonopin: DA, DA+, unlikely DA-

Provigil's ability to effectively antagonize clozaril,
and ability to offset amisulpride induced energy/motor deficits
both additional evidence for DA agonism.

"Dopaminergics and anxiety": Many DA agonists also boost NE, and NE is typically more responsibe for anxiety reactions.

Examples: Eldepryl: DA++, NE++ (predict anxiety)
Wellbutrin: DA++, NE++ (predict anxiety)
Ritalin: DA++, NE++ (predict anxiety)
aminetpine: DA++, NE++ (predict anxiety)
Provigil: SE+,DA+ (predict stimulating mood lift)
Dexedrine: SE++,DA++,NE++ (predict activating feel good, confidence, energy)

amantadine: DA++, NE+ (high energy, boost sex, mild anxiety)

kregpark
http://www.socialfear.com/

> No, never been on amphetamines. The selegiline metabolites are the closest I've come.
> But the key here is that the amphetamine metabolites are likely *not* the cause of the anxiety selegiline produced. Instead -- despite the talk of dopamine deficiency in social phobia -- I find that dopaminergic agents in general make me a lot more anxious. And I'm not the only one...most attempts to harness dopamine for social phobia have been major failures, such as the selegiline study I mentioned as well as a pergolide study where the results were so negative that the study was quickly aborted.
> That doesn't mean dopamine enhancement can't play a role in social phobia treatment in some as-yet undetermined fashion. But dopamine's a complex and rather mysterious substance that can have diametrically opposing mental and physical (e.g., blood pressure modulating) impact at different binding sites, etc.
> Rick
>
>
> > > Even a tiny dose that I later used to (successfully) offset slight Klonopin-induced dulling added back some anxiety.
> > Have you ever been on an amphetamine (Adderall, Dexedrine, Desoxyn)? If so, did it cause the same anxiety you experienced with selegiline? (As I'm sure you know, two of selegiline's metabolites are l-amphetamine and l-methamphetamine.)
> > I'm considering trying selegiline for my depression & social phobia. (Amphetamines don't really increase my anxiety (in fact, sometimes they relieve it).)
> > Thanks,
> > Christophre

 

Re: Provigil-Modafinil-Adrafinil? kregpark@yahoo.com

Posted by Rick on January 6, 2002, at 14:58:37

In reply to Re: Provigil-Modafinil-Adrafinil? Rick, posted by kregpark@yahoo.com on January 6, 2002, at 9:52:10

Craig -

Most of the studies I've seen suggest that modafinil has minimal dopaminergic activity.
A quote from the mongraph:

Modafinil is not a direct- or indirect-acting dopamine receptor agonist and is inactive in several in vivo preclinical models capable of detecting enhanced dopaminergic activity. In vitro, modafinil binds to the dopamine reuptake site and causes an increase in extracellular dopamine, but no increase in dopamine release. In a preclinical model, the wakefulness induced by amphetamine, but not modafinil, is antagonized by the dopamine receptor antagonist haloperidol.

Neither have I seen anything to suggest that clonazepam is dopaminergic. In fact, some work at Ontario's McMaster University (which coincidentally is one of the primary Social Phobia research insttutions) has suggested that clonazepam may have antidopaminergic effects in the striatum:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9517437&dopt=Abstract

Now, as for serotonergic AD's, that's a very different story. One theory of their frequent efficacy in social phobia relates to the dopamine reuptake blockade some of the SSRI's possess. And we know that the MAOI Nardil which is has an excellent track reord treating SP, preserves dopamine in addition to serotonin and noradrenaline.

But the point is that these agents that have shown success treating SP are NOT 100% dopaminergic meds. Again, studies of purely dopaminergic drugs - whether direct or indirect acting -- have all failed to produce significant benefit in social phobia treatment, and have sometimes worsened the condition.

Reiterating, I'm by no means arguing the point that dopamine dysfunction could be a key factor in Social Phobia (as are serotonin, noradrenaline and GABA). And that very likely applies to me, too. I'm only stating that, for whatever reason, purely dopaminergic meds tested thus far generaly don't work, and may in fact increase anxiety. In essence, the "brute force" methods for preserving/increasing dopamine don't seem to work for SP. But that doesn't mean dopamine enhancement couldn't be very beneficial to SP in a less direct, synergistic way. Note that Wellbutrin, which has proven helpful in at least some cases of SP, has adrenergic activity in addition to its dopaminergic properties.

BTW, 2.5 mg selegiline diminished the effectiveness of my Klonopin a bit, but provided enough cognitive, energy, and sexual benefits that I'd likely try adding it back if I had to give up Provigil -- assuming, for safety's sake, that I was still off Serzone.

Rick

P.S. If you haven't already done so, I suggest you get your hands on the fascinating article "Drugs in Development for Social Anxiety" Disorder: More to Social Anxiety Than Meets the SSRI. The 11- page (not including references) article was written by Van Ameringen et, al. of McMaster, and is in the October 2000 issue of "Expert Opinion in Investigational Drugs."
> Rick -
>
> I had a hard time not acknowledging the "SP and dopamine" issue:
> I definitely do *not* think dopamine agonists are required for all people with SP.
> I'm also not too clear if dopaminergics work equally well for women as men.
> I *do* think a majority of males with moderate to severe SP AND timidity AND high rejection sensitivity will attain their best results with dopamine augmentation.
>
> Although I could cite solid suggesting evidence (best) or my own regimen and experience, instead I suggest your regimen acts as a dopamine and GABA agonist with less effect on SE and NE.
>
> 100 Provigil (5ht, DA): (effect perhaps partially indirect via GABA) Site specific but clearly has characteristics of DA agonist and ex vivo shows DA re-uptake. Higher doses lead to increased wakefullness, stimulant and (at first) euphoric properties. Is self-reinforcing. Increased libido, hair loss, effective antagonist of the atypical antipsychotic clozaril.
>
> 300 Serzone: Often "prosexual" (suggestive dopamine agonist or at worst lacks net DA decline, probably indirectly by primary action as 5ht-2 antagonist.) Common side effects: increased sex drive, agitation, irritablity, hypotension. Up to date info (Medline) indicates that Serzone has *weak* 5ht re-uptake and it's *primary* effect is as 5ht-2 antagonist.
>
> 1.25 Klonopin: May cause Increase libido (in PDR also), paradoxic reaction at high dose such as aggressive behavior, hyperactivity, increased locomotion, agitation, impulsiveness, increased self-confidence, reduced rejection sensitivity. Klonopin is a 2nd line MOOD STABILIZER for bipolar swings. This suggests Klonopin compensate for low dopamine levels. Also, Davidson (1992) suggest Klonopin may have dopaminergic agonism, possibly by the overall anti-serotonin properties of Klonopin (unlike Xanax for example, which is sometimes used as anti-depressant).
>
> Sum: Provigil: DA++ (dose dependent)
> Serzone: DA or DA+
> Klonopin: DA, DA+, unlikely DA-
>
> Provigil's ability to effectively antagonize clozaril,
> and ability to offset amisulpride induced energy/motor deficits
> both additional evidence for DA agonism.
>
> "Dopaminergics and anxiety": Many DA agonists also boost NE, and NE is typically more responsibe for anxiety reactions.
>
> Examples: Eldepryl: DA++, NE++ (predict anxiety)
> Wellbutrin: DA++, NE++ (predict anxiety)
> Ritalin: DA++, NE++ (predict anxiety)
> aminetpine: DA++, NE++ (predict anxiety)
> Provigil: SE+,DA+ (predict stimulating mood lift)
> Dexedrine: SE++,DA++,NE++ (predict activating feel good, confidence, energy)
>
> amantadine: DA++, NE+ (high energy, boost sex, mild anxiety)
>
> kregpark
> http://www.socialfear.com/
>
>
>
> > No, never been on amphetamines. The selegiline metabolites are the closest I've come.
> > But the key here is that the amphetamine metabolites are likely *not* the cause of the anxiety selegiline produced. Instead -- despite the talk of dopamine deficiency in social phobia -- I find that dopaminergic agents in general make me a lot more anxious. And I'm not the only one...most attempts to harness dopamine for social phobia have been major failures, such as the selegiline study I mentioned as well as a pergolide study where the results were so negative that the study was quickly aborted.
> > That doesn't mean dopamine enhancement can't play a role in social phobia treatment in some as-yet undetermined fashion. But dopamine's a complex and rather mysterious substance that can have diametrically opposing mental and physical (e.g., blood pressure modulating) impact at different binding sites, etc.
> > Rick
> >
> >
> > > > Even a tiny dose that I later used to (successfully) offset slight Klonopin-induced dulling added back some anxiety.
> > > Have you ever been on an amphetamine (Adderall, Dexedrine, Desoxyn)? If so, did it cause the same anxiety you experienced with selegiline? (As I'm sure you know, two of selegiline's metabolites are l-amphetamine and l-methamphetamine.)
> > > I'm considering trying selegiline for my depression & social phobia. (Amphetamines don't really increase my anxiety (in fact, sometimes they relieve it).)
> > > Thanks,
> > > Christophre


 

Re: Provigil-Modafinil-Adrafinil? -P.S

Posted by Rick on January 6, 2002, at 15:27:45

In reply to Re: Provigil-Modafinil-Adrafinil? kregpark@yahoo.com, posted by Rick on January 6, 2002, at 14:58:37

P.S. None of what I wrote below was meant to deny that some of the unstudied (for SP) dopaminergics could be useful for social phobia, at least for some people (as evidenced by testimonials on this board). But I sure can't recommend selegiline as a *primary* agent for SP, and the preponderace of evidence seems to support me. But then, there are always some people who have a paradoxical, or at least atypical, reaction to a given med.

Rick
> Craig -
>
> Most of the studies I've seen suggest that modafinil has minimal dopaminergic activity.
> A quote from the mongraph:
>
> Modafinil is not a direct- or indirect-acting dopamine receptor agonist and is inactive in several in vivo preclinical models capable of detecting enhanced dopaminergic activity. In vitro, modafinil binds to the dopamine reuptake site and causes an increase in extracellular dopamine, but no increase in dopamine release. In a preclinical model, the wakefulness induced by amphetamine, but not modafinil, is antagonized by the dopamine receptor antagonist haloperidol.
>
> Neither have I seen anything to suggest that clonazepam is dopaminergic. In fact, some work at Ontario's McMaster University (which coincidentally is one of the primary Social Phobia research insttutions) has suggested that clonazepam may have antidopaminergic effects in the striatum:
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9517437&dopt=Abstract
>
> Now, as for serotonergic AD's, that's a very different story. One theory of their frequent efficacy in social phobia relates to the dopamine reuptake blockade some of the SSRI's possess. And we know that the MAOI Nardil which is has an excellent track reord treating SP, preserves dopamine in addition to serotonin and noradrenaline.
>
> But the point is that these agents that have shown success treating SP are NOT 100% dopaminergic meds. Again, studies of purely dopaminergic drugs - whether direct or indirect acting -- have all failed to produce significant benefit in social phobia treatment, and have sometimes worsened the condition.
>
> Reiterating, I'm by no means arguing the point that dopamine dysfunction could be a key factor in Social Phobia (as are serotonin, noradrenaline and GABA). And that very likely applies to me, too. I'm only stating that, for whatever reason, purely dopaminergic meds tested thus far generaly don't work, and may in fact increase anxiety. In essence, the "brute force" methods for preserving/increasing dopamine don't seem to work for SP. But that doesn't mean dopamine enhancement couldn't be very beneficial to SP in a less direct, synergistic way. Note that Wellbutrin, which has proven helpful in at least some cases of SP, has adrenergic activity in addition to its dopaminergic properties.
>
> BTW, 2.5 mg selegiline diminished the effectiveness of my Klonopin a bit, but provided enough cognitive, energy, and sexual benefits that I'd likely try adding it back if I had to give up Provigil -- assuming, for safety's sake, that I was still off Serzone.
>
> Rick
>
> P.S. If you haven't already done so, I suggest you get your hands on the fascinating article "Drugs in Development for Social Anxiety" Disorder: More to Social Anxiety Than Meets the SSRI. The 11- page (not including references) article was written by Van Ameringen et, al. of McMaster, and is in the October 2000 issue of "Expert Opinion in Investigational Drugs."
> > Rick -
> >
> > I had a hard time not acknowledging the "SP and dopamine" issue:
> > I definitely do *not* think dopamine agonists are required for all people with SP.
> > I'm also not too clear if dopaminergics work equally well for women as men.
> > I *do* think a majority of males with moderate to severe SP AND timidity AND high rejection sensitivity will attain their best results with dopamine augmentation.
> >
> > Although I could cite solid suggesting evidence (best) or my own regimen and experience, instead I suggest your regimen acts as a dopamine and GABA agonist with less effect on SE and NE.
> >
> > 100 Provigil (5ht, DA): (effect perhaps partially indirect via GABA) Site specific but clearly has characteristics of DA agonist and ex vivo shows DA re-uptake. Higher doses lead to increased wakefullness, stimulant and (at first) euphoric properties. Is self-reinforcing. Increased libido, hair loss, effective antagonist of the atypical antipsychotic clozaril.
> >
> > 300 Serzone: Often "prosexual" (suggestive dopamine agonist or at worst lacks net DA decline, probably indirectly by primary action as 5ht-2 antagonist.) Common side effects: increased sex drive, agitation, irritablity, hypotension. Up to date info (Medline) indicates that Serzone has *weak* 5ht re-uptake and it's *primary* effect is as 5ht-2 antagonist.
> >
> > 1.25 Klonopin: May cause Increase libido (in PDR also), paradoxic reaction at high dose such as aggressive behavior, hyperactivity, increased locomotion, agitation, impulsiveness, increased self-confidence, reduced rejection sensitivity. Klonopin is a 2nd line MOOD STABILIZER for bipolar swings. This suggests Klonopin compensate for low dopamine levels. Also, Davidson (1992) suggest Klonopin may have dopaminergic agonism, possibly by the overall anti-serotonin properties of Klonopin (unlike Xanax for example, which is sometimes used as anti-depressant).
> >
> > Sum: Provigil: DA++ (dose dependent)
> > Serzone: DA or DA+
> > Klonopin: DA, DA+, unlikely DA-
> >
> > Provigil's ability to effectively antagonize clozaril,
> > and ability to offset amisulpride induced energy/motor deficits
> > both additional evidence for DA agonism.
> >
> > "Dopaminergics and anxiety": Many DA agonists also boost NE, and NE is typically more responsibe for anxiety reactions.
> >
> > Examples: Eldepryl: DA++, NE++ (predict anxiety)
> > Wellbutrin: DA++, NE++ (predict anxiety)
> > Ritalin: DA++, NE++ (predict anxiety)
> > aminetpine: DA++, NE++ (predict anxiety)
> > Provigil: SE+,DA+ (predict stimulating mood lift)
> > Dexedrine: SE++,DA++,NE++ (predict activating feel good, confidence, energy)
> >
> > amantadine: DA++, NE+ (high energy, boost sex, mild anxiety)
> >
> > kregpark
> > http://www.socialfear.com/
> >
> >
> >
> > > No, never been on amphetamines. The selegiline metabolites are the closest I've come.
> > > But the key here is that the amphetamine metabolites are likely *not* the cause of the anxiety selegiline produced. Instead -- despite the talk of dopamine deficiency in social phobia -- I find that dopaminergic agents in general make me a lot more anxious. And I'm not the only one...most attempts to harness dopamine for social phobia have been major failures, such as the selegiline study I mentioned as well as a pergolide study where the results were so negative that the study was quickly aborted.
> > > That doesn't mean dopamine enhancement can't play a role in social phobia treatment in some as-yet undetermined fashion. But dopamine's a complex and rather mysterious substance that can have diametrically opposing mental and physical (e.g., blood pressure modulating) impact at different binding sites, etc.
> > > Rick
> > >
> > >
> > > > > Even a tiny dose that I later used to (successfully) offset slight Klonopin-induced dulling added back some anxiety.
> > > > Have you ever been on an amphetamine (Adderall, Dexedrine, Desoxyn)? If so, did it cause the same anxiety you experienced with selegiline? (As I'm sure you know, two of selegiline's metabolites are l-amphetamine and l-methamphetamine.)
> > > > I'm considering trying selegiline for my depression & social phobia. (Amphetamines don't really increase my anxiety (in fact, sometimes they relieve it).)
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > Christophre

 

Re: Provigil-Modafinil-Adrafinil? Rick

Posted by kregpark@yahoo.com on January 6, 2002, at 17:20:34

In reply to Re: Provigil-Modafinil-Adrafinil? kregpark@yahoo.com, posted by Rick on January 6, 2002, at 14:58:37

Hi Rick -

I think you make some good points.

Provigil: I did see the reference to haloperidal on Medline, and the PDR blurb (newer studies seem to contradict some of that). Haloperidal versus clozaril challenge seem contractictory, as well as NE challenges. Some stuff says they don't know *what* is the mode of action, but otherwise what I see implicates DA. Regardless how it works, the effect seems to MIMIC closely actual DA + 5ht enhancement. ie; Treating it that way can be useful.
Klonopin: Not a dopamine agonist. Niether is gabapentin clearly, (often even sedating), but how is it that some who take gabapentin for SP develop mania, and how does gabapentin help prevent bipolar swings to "low dopamine" state?
Serzone: Serzone (similar to the older trazodone) is a basically sedating and/or agitating sertononin BLOCKER. Newer data show very little whole level serotonin increase, insignificant compared to the SSRI's. Dr's used to wonder why it didn't seem to help significant depression.

I've never seen anyone suggest 100% DA drugs for SP. I'm only saying that low dopamine to exist in a substantial number of SP patients.
The higher (factor of 5) incidence of Parkinson's in SP versus non SP folks may provide clues.
Caffeine (mild dopamine and choline enhancement) appears to dose dependently prevent later life onset of Parkinson's, reduction up to factor of 5 in those drinking somethiing like 5 cups of coffee a day.
Smoking (MAOI-B) maybe other, reduces Parkinson's about factor of 5 also.

kregpark


The article - I haven't read but did see abstract and liked it! I remember showing to my Dr. who has few SP patients.

In the only such study I've seen, Nardil increases DA and NE slightly and more robustly.


------------

> Craig -
>
> Most of the studies I've seen suggest that modafinil has minimal dopaminergic activity.
> A quote from the mongraph:
>
> Modafinil is not a direct- or indirect-acting dopamine receptor agonist and is inactive in several in vivo preclinical models capable of detecting enhanced dopaminergic activity. In vitro, modafinil binds to the dopamine reuptake site and causes an increase in extracellular dopamine, but no increase in dopamine release. In a preclinical model, the wakefulness induced by amphetamine, but not modafinil, is antagonized by the dopamine receptor antagonist haloperidol.
>
> Neither have I seen anything to suggest that clonazepam is dopaminergic. In fact, some work at Ontario's McMaster University (which coincidentally is one of the primary Social Phobia research insttutions) has suggested that clonazepam may have antidopaminergic effects in the striatum:
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9517437&dopt=Abstract
>
> Now, as for serotonergic AD's, that's a very different story. One theory of their frequent efficacy in social phobia relates to the dopamine reuptake blockade some of the SSRI's possess. And we know that the MAOI Nardil which is has an excellent track reord treating SP, preserves dopamine in addition to serotonin and noradrenaline.
>
> But the point is that these agents that have shown success treating SP are NOT 100% dopaminergic meds. Again, studies of purely dopaminergic drugs - whether direct or indirect acting -- have all failed to produce significant benefit in social phobia treatment, and have sometimes worsened the condition.
>
> Reiterating, I'm by no means arguing the point that dopamine dysfunction could be a key factor in Social Phobia (as are serotonin, noradrenaline and GABA). And that very likely applies to me, too. I'm only stating that, for whatever reason, purely dopaminergic meds tested thus far generaly don't work, and may in fact increase anxiety. In essence, the "brute force" methods for preserving/increasing dopamine don't seem to work for SP. But that doesn't mean dopamine enhancement couldn't be very beneficial to SP in a less direct, synergistic way. Note that Wellbutrin, which has proven helpful in at least some cases of SP, has adrenergic activity in addition to its dopaminergic properties.
>
> BTW, 2.5 mg selegiline diminished the effectiveness of my Klonopin a bit, but provided enough cognitive, energy, and sexual benefits that I'd likely try adding it back if I had to give up Provigil -- assuming, for safety's sake, that I was still off Serzone.
>
> Rick
>
> P.S. If you haven't already done so, I suggest you get your hands on the fascinating article "Drugs in Development for Social Anxiety" Disorder: More to Social Anxiety Than Meets the SSRI. The 11- page (not including references) article was written by Van Ameringen et, al. of McMaster, and is in the October 2000 issue of "Expert Opinion in Investigational Drugs."

 

Re: Immune System (very LONG post) IsoM

Posted by Leor on December 23, 2002, at 4:01:31

In reply to Immune System (very LONG post), posted by IsoM on January 5, 2002, at 13:52:24

Please tell me - what form do you take Vitamin
D in (i.e. D2 or D3)? What format is it best
taken in so as to avoid toxicity AND-OR
avoid the Vitamin D acting on calcium to form calclum stones.

Many thanks,

Leor


> 3. Vitamin D. I'm not a sun-lover - my Mom has had & keeps on too, having pre-cancerous spots removed from her skin from sun damage. Because I've avoided the sun, I always took extra vitamin D. The 400 IU recommended is actually very low. It's to prevent any possible overdoses from this vitamin as it's stored in the liver & high continued doses can be toxic. I researched as much as possible & have taken about 1000-1500 IU daily instead. I want strong bones after menopause. I never thought vitamin D did anything else, but in reading science/medical journals recently, vitamin D has been found necessary in maintaining a strong immune system. Does the amount I take help me this way? Possibly.
>
> It's not genetics. My two brothers look so old & both are overweight; one a little, the other very much so. Both get sick a lot. My poor dear Mom is sick a lot too with frequent colds, so I don't think it's good genetics. I haven't had a flu for 27 years now, don't get colds, or other infections. I did get pneumonia when my marriage was breaking up & one son was suicidal & had to be hospitalised. The stress at the time was overwhelming.
>
> *About soy. There's a professor, Dr. Claire Hasler, at the Universtity of Illinois who's been researching soy benefits for over 20 years. She's a firm believer in using the whole soy bean & not just extracting the isoflavones & other components from soy. She believes (& so do I) that there may be other components in the whole food that acts synergistically together to bring the greatest benefits. It's similar to how beta-carotene was isolated from foods & made into capsules. The benefits were almost nil as it needs to be in the foods to have the most effect. In fact, isolated soy extracts has sometimes been thought to have an opposite effect from strenghtening the immune system. What I've read is not from sites promoting their own products & interests, but from bonafide science journals written about the research that's being done.
>
> If you want to check out some of Dr. Hasler's views, here's a site she has:
> http://www.ag.uiuc.edu/~stratsoy/expert/askhealth.html
>
> **************************************************************************************************
>
> > Wish I could convince you to keep it on the board--there are a number of people here who are working with the natural/immune system approach that could benefit. I know that I am trying to work with mine and I know Shelli is planning on seeing a naturopathic doctor in DC.

 

Re: vitamin D Leor

Posted by IsoM on December 23, 2002, at 12:30:55

In reply to Re: Immune System (very LONG post) IsoM, posted by Leor on December 23, 2002, at 4:01:31

Leor, I take D3, or cholecalciferol, which is found in fish liver oils. The other form is ergocalciferol which is generally added to foods. If I recall correctly vitamin D doesn't cause calcium stone formation but an excess can cause calcium deposits in soft tissue but this excess is REALLY high - like 50,000 or more IU daily over a long period of time, one or two years! And not enough D causes calcium deposits too.

Winter doldrums for me, so I'm going to include a remark made by a director of a health institute & a link to what she mentions for you, if you'll excuse my laziness.

from Jenny Thompson, Health Sciences Institute in Baltimore:
"On the other hand, for years, nutritionally oriented physicians have been teaching us about the benefits of much higher levels of vitamin D, and the best ways to boost our intake. For example, alternative medicine pioneer Dr. Jonathan Wright urges everyone to get between 1600 and 2000 IUs of vitamin D each day, and as much as 4000 IUs for those of us over 40! According to Dr. Wright, it's impossible for most people to get enough vitamin D from the sun alone - and he discourages the use of dairy products because of the many other health concerns they may raise. Instead, Dr. Wright recommends other food sources like salmon and sardines - or even good old-fashioned cod liver oil, which provides over 1300 IUs of vitamin D per tablespoon."
<<Personally, I'd gag on cod liver oil straight. I use halibut liver oil capsules.>>

The web-site: http://www.wrightnewsletter.com/misc/nah_0202.shtml

 

Re: started trial of Provigil...help??

Posted by Sab on February 7, 2004, at 7:24:16

In reply to started trial of Provigil...help??, posted by Collette1 on January 3, 2002, at 11:06:07

> > I want to be in this thread. I will be starting a trial of Provigal within the next few days. I also have a supply of adrafinil, but my pdoc want me to start with Provigil(samples) to see how it affects me. I am not totally sure why, but it might be because he is familiar with Provigil. If it works, he is not opposed to my trying adrafinil to see if it is as effective (It's WAY cheaper!)Collette
>
> Ok, hear is my update. I started Provigil 3 days ago. My Pdoc gave me 200mg tablets and told me to take in the AM before food. I made a mistake and took the first one about 1-2 hours AFTER I had eaten. Didn't feel anything special on that day. The 2nd day I had some nausea and otherwise, not much effect yet. Today, I feel lousy. I can't even tell if I am hungry or have no appetite because of the nausea. I did a major search here and have come to the conclusion that: I need to start at a much lower dose( I'm thinking 50mg) and/or I need to take this pill with food. Does anyone have any advice for me? Actually, what I FEEL like doing is not taking any more of this at all! I will appreciate any input. Thanks, Collette

I started on provagil 100 mg 1x daily 2 months ago. The only time I had particular nausea was when I upped the dose to 200 for 2 days. I take it before food by the way. I have just tried this double dose again for two days and this time no nausea. I dont get at all hungry till about 5 hors after so for some people this might cause nausea. I find on the whole it helps a lot. No side effects have put me off it.
>

 

Re: started trial of Provigil...help??

Posted by eugenia on February 8, 2004, at 15:54:44

In reply to Re: started trial of Provigil...help??, posted by Sab on February 7, 2004, at 7:24:16

I never cease to be amazed by how differently the same drug can make people feel. I took Provigil years ago and I loved it. I mean, I really loved it. It gave me a speed like feeling. Whenever I like a drug that much within fifteen minutes of taking it I know I can't take it. But because I loved it and because I have an addictive personality, I kept taking it. I was taking like two hundred in the morning and two hundred in the afternoon. Eventually, I became really zoned out and then I had the paradoxical reaction of basically slipping into a deep sleep that I didn''t awaken from for twelve hours. Don't remember when I finally tossed the bottle. But I also remember that it began to give me really bad, awakening at four am anxiety. But, some people love Provigil and don't feel any addictive pull. They are lucky. By the way, a peculariar side effect was that it made my pee smell really strange!

 

Re: started trial of Provigil...help?? eugenia

Posted by Rick on February 10, 2004, at 11:44:06

In reply to Re: started trial of Provigil...help??, posted by eugenia on February 8, 2004, at 15:54:44

I absolutely love Provigil. When I take it, I take just 100 mg and it works quite nicely 90% of the time. I like the fact that I can stop and start it at wil with no problem. I couldn't understand why on earth it's a controlled substance. I do get a very mild euphoria when I take it after a hiatus, but that doesn't last long. But it sounds from your personal experience as if maybe if it can indeed cause dependence or even addiction in some people.

My only problems with Provigil are:

1) It causes dry mouth, sometimes to the point that I'm "foaming at the mouth" and get profuse sticky mucus in my throat (sorry to be gross). There may be some other factors contributung to this problem, but I believe Provigil makes it worse.

2) It sometimes raises my blood pressure and or heart rate. My BP med generally takes care of these problems, but they can still pop through sometimes. (Ironically, when I had Serzone in the cocktail, it completley obliterated any cardiovascular effects from Provigil.)

3) It is extremley expensive (even when I get 200mg pills and (easily) snap them in half. This issue is coming to a head since my drug insurance administrator (Medco) has started balking against covering it, even though they always paid before. Now they say they'll only cover it for ertain conditions. My trump in appealing the denial *may* be that I was once diagnosed with obstructive sleep apnea, and just a few weeks ago Provigil received a new FDA indication for excessive daytime sleepiness in those with apnea.

But overall, I love it. It's the med that lets you mentally tell it what you want it to do. If you want it to keep you bright and alert, it does, But if you want to take a daytime nap...no problem. For me the biggest benefit is that it adds a wonderful talkability/sociability aspect to the mainstay (godsend) Klonopin that I take for Social Phobia.

Rick


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