Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 87323

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Re: Olmifon (adrafinil)

Posted by Collette1 on December 31, 2001, at 16:30:33

In reply to Re: Olmifon (adrafinil) manowar, posted by IsoM on December 25, 2001, at 0:31:53

I want to be in this thread. I will be starting a trial of Provigal within the next few days. I also have a supply of adrafinil, but my pdoc want me to start with Provigil(samples) to see how it affects me. I am not totally sure why, but it might be because he is familiar with Provigil. If it works, he is not opposed to my trying adrafinil to see if it is as effective (It's WAY cheaper!)Collette

 

Hope It Helps You!! (nm) Collette1

Posted by IsoM on December 31, 2001, at 16:49:49

In reply to Re: Olmifon (adrafinil), posted by Collette1 on December 31, 2001, at 16:30:33

 

started trial of Provigil...help??

Posted by Collette1 on January 3, 2002, at 11:06:07

In reply to Re: Olmifon (adrafinil), posted by Collette1 on December 31, 2001, at 16:30:33

> I want to be in this thread. I will be starting a trial of Provigal within the next few days. I also have a supply of adrafinil, but my pdoc want me to start with Provigil(samples) to see how it affects me. I am not totally sure why, but it might be because he is familiar with Provigil. If it works, he is not opposed to my trying adrafinil to see if it is as effective (It's WAY cheaper!)Collette

Ok, hear is my update. I started Provigil 3 days ago. My Pdoc gave me 200mg tablets and told me to take in the AM before food. I made a mistake and took the first one about 1-2 hours AFTER I had eaten. Didn't feel anything special on that day. The 2nd day I had some nausea and otherwise, not much effect yet. Today, I feel lousy. I can't even tell if I am hungry or have no appetite because of the nausea. I did a major search here and have come to the conclusion that: I need to start at a much lower dose( I'm thinking 50mg) and/or I need to take this pill with food. Does anyone have any advice for me? Actually, what I FEEL like doing is not taking any more of this at all! I will appreciate any input. Thanks, Collette

 

Re: started trial of Provigil...help?? Collette1

Posted by Rick on January 3, 2002, at 12:32:29

In reply to started trial of Provigil...help??, posted by Collette1 on January 3, 2002, at 11:06:07

What other psychotropic or non-psychotropic meds and/or supplements are you taking the Provigil with? That can make a difference -- not that I can give you any specific rundown of what works, other than my own experience. For me Provigil's been a great help from day one with combined Serzone and Klonopin, at 100 mg/day first thing in the morning, with an occasional spike to 200 (but I don't stay at that level for more than a few days, otherwise I get a bit wired). A few things I've noticed: 1) An initial euphoria effect that wears off after a few days 2) Brief, occasional poop-out days 3) Also, works well when I take it with Klonopin *without* the Serzone (curently experimenting with that), but in that case seems to raise my blood pressure and heart rate some, especially at the higher dose 4) The nootropic memory-enhancing claim doesn't seem to apply in my case, especially when I'm taking Serzone. (Despite its reputation, low-dose Klonopin doesn't seem to have a significant amnesic effect for me)

Most importantly, Provigil makes a BIG addition to my social phobia treatment. Since taking it, I've had several comments about how I seem so much more confident and self-assured (not always in thsoe words, of course). And this has all happened *after* Klonopin had already done so much to treat my basic fear of social interaction.

Depending on your weight and med sensitivity, maybe 50 mg *would* make more sense to try, at least as a start. And again, it can make a big difference re what else, if anything, you're taking. (For all I know, without the Klonopin Provigil could make me MORE anxious.) It may not be for you, but consider the factors I others mention, and give it a fair trial.

Good Luck,
Rick

> > I want to be in this thread. I will be starting a trial of Provigal within the next few days. I also have a supply of adrafinil, but my pdoc want me to start with Provigil(samples) to see how it affects me. I am not totally sure why, but it might be because he is familiar with Provigil. If it works, he is not opposed to my trying adrafinil to see if it is as effective (It's WAY cheaper!)Collette
>


> Ok, hear is my update. I started Provigil 3 days ago. My Pdoc gave me 200mg tablets and told me to take in the AM before food. I made a mistake and took the first one about 1-2 hours AFTER I had eaten. Didn't feel anything special on that day. The 2nd day I had some nausea and otherwise, not much effect yet. Today, I feel lousy. I can't even tell if I am hungry or have no appetite because of the nausea. I did a major search here and have come to the conclusion that: I need to start at a much lower dose( I'm thinking 50mg) and/or I need to take this pill with food. Does anyone have any advice for me? Actually, what I FEEL like doing is not taking any more of this at all! I will appreciate any input. Thanks, Collette

 

Maybe some hints for Provigil?? Collette1

Posted by IsoM on January 3, 2002, at 14:12:47

In reply to started trial of Provigil...help??, posted by Collette1 on January 3, 2002, at 11:06:07

hi Collette. I feel a certain responsibility to someone when I mention how good a med works for me & they end up with side-effects instead.

I did a search about Provigil & nausea and found on Sleep.net forums some comments from other users of Provigil. Many had no nausea at all, but for those who did, it seems that the nausea fades. A few have had nausea off & on for a long time, & one user had felt just awful on Provigil, not just nausea but headaches, sleeplessness, sore throat, the works - to the point where she discontinued it.

I know I have a hard time putting up with nausea from meds - no tolerance for nausea. I stuck with Prozac for 5-6 weeks waiting for it to work. I had nausea the whole time & no benefits, so I quit it. When I tried Zoloft, I always threw up less than an hour after taking it. I could see the dissolved pill remains, so that was out for me.

If you think you can manage the nausea for a while, give it a try to see if it fades. I never take any pills first thing in the morning on an empty stomach. Water on an empty stomach in the morning gives me cramps & nausea. I drink "baby" tea - hot, sweet, & lots of milk in it. It's the first thing I drink in the morning & I take my meds with it. See if taking your meds first thing in the morn with a warm, sweet drink helps (unless warm sweet drinks make you sick!). I don't eat for a half-hour to hour afterwards.

Seeing I take adrafinil rather than modafinil, I don't know if there'd be differences but I don't think so. One person in Sleep.net said the nausea lasted about a month before it faded away.

**************************************************************************************************

> > I want to be in this thread. I will be starting a trial of Provigal within the next few days. I also have a supply of adrafinil, but my pdoc want me to start with Provigil(samples) to see how it affects me. I am not totally sure why, but it might be because he is familiar with Provigil. If it works, he is not opposed to my trying adrafinil to see if it is as effective (It's WAY cheaper!)Collette
>
> Ok, hear is my update. I started Provigil 3 days ago. My Pdoc gave me 200mg tablets and told me to take in the AM before food. I made a mistake and took the first one about 1-2 hours AFTER I had eaten. Didn't feel anything special on that day. The 2nd day I had some nausea and otherwise, not much effect yet. Today, I feel lousy. I can't even tell if I am hungry or have no appetite because of the nausea. I did a major search here and have come to the conclusion that: I need to start at a much lower dose( I'm thinking 50mg) and/or I need to take this pill with food. Does anyone have any advice for me? Actually, what I FEEL like doing is not taking any more of this at all! I will appreciate any input. Thanks, Collette

 

an Update update...

Posted by Collette1 on January 3, 2002, at 15:09:49

In reply to Maybe some hints for Provigil?? Collette1, posted by IsoM on January 3, 2002, at 14:12:47

Thanks for the responses. I must add that it is now evening and I have spent the day getting progressively sicker and now have a VERY painful sore throat and sinus infection. I think this illness is IN NO WAY a "side effect" but it may have made the pill reaction seem much worse! I am going to stop for a few days since I just started, and when I start my trial again, I will try 50 mgs and drink *my* sweet coffee with milk first! I'll be back to report at that time. Collette

 

Re: an Update update...

Posted by IsoM on January 3, 2002, at 15:26:43

In reply to an Update update..., posted by Collette1 on January 3, 2002, at 15:09:49

Collette, just a note. Keep track of whether you seem to get sicker (infections) on Provigil. Some people feel their immune system becomes weaker. I've got one thing going for me at least - I never get sick. You can have a flu & sneeze in my face & I won't get sick. I only got pneumonia under the great stress of my marriage breakup & a son wanting to commit suicide. But others find they get sick easier on Provigil. Maybe some extra vitamins may help.

**************************************************************************************************

> Thanks for the responses. I must add that it is now evening and I have spent the day getting progressively sicker and now have a VERY painful sore throat and sinus infection. I think this illness is IN NO WAY a "side effect" but it may have made the pill reaction seem much worse! I am going to stop for a few days since I just started, and when I start my trial again, I will try 50 mgs and drink *my* sweet coffee with milk first! I'll be back to report at that time. Collette

 

Provigil-Modafinil-Adrafinil

Posted by manowar on January 3, 2002, at 16:21:30

In reply to Re: an Update update..., posted by IsoM on January 3, 2002, at 15:26:43

I would just like to say that I'm very happy to be off the typical pstims. I just started 300 mg of Modafinil yest, and I've been taking Adrafinil before that for about 1 1/2 weeks.

I'll tell you why I don't like the normal pstims: The effect of the drugs is so immediate, and its like if I did something creative, I didn't take credit for it-- I thought it was the drug. I don't like psychological dependence, and now I know why pdocs are very reluctant to use typical pstims.

I hope the Modafinil works; I need to give it time.

 

Re: Provigil-Modafinil-Adrafinil? manowar

Posted by IsoM on January 3, 2002, at 16:34:52

In reply to Provigil-Modafinil-Adrafinil, posted by manowar on January 3, 2002, at 16:21:30

Keep us up-dated on how you find it working, please. I know how well it works for me but want to hear from others. My wonder drug isn't necessarily other's wonder drug.

Did you feel an immediate effect, manowar? Cause I know it took about a week for me to notice anything. Many said the first dose gave them a lift, but not me.

I know what you mean about other stims. I can feel my mood rise & then drop as it wears off. I want to feel normal all the time, not like a sine wave.

***************************************************************************************************

> I would just like to say that I'm very happy to be off the typical pstims. I just started 300 mg of Modafinil yest, and I've been taking Adrafinil before that for about 1 1/2 weeks.
>
> I'll tell you why I don't like the normal pstims: The effect of the drugs is so immediate, and its like if I did something creative, I didn't take credit for it-- I thought it was the drug. I don't like psychological dependence, and now I know why pdocs are very reluctant to use typical pstims.
>
> I hope the Modafinil works; I need to give it time.

 

Re: Provigil-Modafinil-Adrafinil? IsoM

Posted by manowar on January 3, 2002, at 20:12:52

In reply to Re: Provigil-Modafinil-Adrafinil? manowar, posted by IsoM on January 3, 2002, at 16:34:52

Hello IsoM,

> Keep us up-dated on how you find it working, please. I know how well it works for me but want to hear from others. My wonder drug isn't necessarily other's wonder drug.

>
> Did you feel an immediate effect, manowar? Cause I know it took about a week for me to notice anything. Many said the first dose gave them a lift, but not me.

Not at all. I felt nothing, and still don't.
When I took the Adrafinil I felt no side effects, but I didn't seem to experience any noticeable change in mood either. I guess for me it has to build up in my system. Funny thing is, I've been more vigilant over the last week. I mean it's hard to explain. It's like I don't mind doing the dishes, cleaning the bathroom, cooking dinner--generally functioning like a normal human being. My cognitive abilities have increased dramatically, for sure. Give me a couple more weeks, and I'll be able to give you a more definitive answer whether the drug is working or not. I might just be on a positive mood swing, and it may have nothing to do with the Adrafinil/Provigil. But I'm very optimistic at this point. I use the Burns Depression Index twice a week to chart my moods. For the last week and a half I've been in complete remission!

(Doesn't this post sound much like your post to me about 2-3 weeks ago:))


> I know what you mean about other stims. I can feel my mood rise & then drop as it wears off. I want to feel normal all the time, not like a sine wave.

That's a good one. I remember depending on pills throughout the day to help my mood; what a drag. I like the typical AD effect much better. I feel less like a druggy.

>
> ***************************************************************************************************
>
> > I would just like to say that I'm very happy to be off the typical pstims. I just started 300 mg of Modafinil yest, and I've been taking Adrafinil before that for about 1 1/2 weeks.
> >
> > I'll tell you why I don't like the normal pstims: The effect of the drugs is so immediate, and its like if I did something creative, I didn't take credit for it-- I thought it was the drug. I don't like psychological dependence, and now I know why pdocs are very reluctant to use typical pstims.
> >
> > I hope the Modafinil works; I need to give it time.

--Tim

 

Re: an Update update... IsoM

Posted by JGalt on January 4, 2002, at 0:29:44

In reply to Re: an Update update..., posted by IsoM on January 3, 2002, at 15:26:43

> Collette, just a note. Keep track of whether you seem to get sicker (infections) on Provigil. Some people feel their immune system becomes weaker. I've got one thing going for me at least - I never get sick. You can have a flu & sneeze in my face & I won't get sick. I only got pneumonia under the great stress of my marriage breakup & a son wanting to commit suicide. But others find they get sick easier on Provigil. Maybe some extra vitamins may help. > >

IsoM, I realize this is almost completely off topic but can you attribute anything to your immunity. I don't seem to get much either, except occasional sinus infections and a chronically congested nose/throat. I still catch colds every once in a while, though most drug stores have that nose spray (Zicort or something along those lines) that has been proven to make them go away faster...works for me. I also take vit. c, vit. e, and all the B's. What do you recommend?

JGalt

 

for manowar manowar

Posted by IsoM on January 4, 2002, at 1:31:53

In reply to Re: Provigil-Modafinil-Adrafinil? IsoM, posted by manowar on January 3, 2002, at 20:12:52

< ....Funny thing is, I've been more vigilant over the last week. I mean it's hard to explain. It's like I don't mind doing the dishes, cleaning the bathroom, cooking dinner--generally functioning like a normal human being. My cognitive abilities have increased dramatically, for sure.

**************************************************************************************************

Yes, your post sounds much like mine did. I'm so glad for you! All the ordinary humdrum things became enjoyable to do. And it feels like I really have a brain again. I've got an IQ way up there (no boasting, just stating facts) but a lot of good it did me when I couldn't seem to remember what I was even thinking about, or would be in the middle of a sentence & wonder what I was talking about.

My Mom told me when I was little, I was always singing. I do remember my brothers asking her to make me shut up. I wasn't even conscious of starting again, but lately, I'd find myself working at something & quietly singing or humming to myself. It's a sign of the improvement in my mood.

 

Immune System JGalt

Posted by IsoM on January 4, 2002, at 1:40:37

In reply to Re: an Update update... IsoM, posted by JGalt on January 4, 2002, at 0:29:44

I don't mind telling you, John, but why not e-mail me & I'll explain more. It's not some special brand of vitamins/minerals/herbs or anything like that, but I hate explaining much more here as it may sound like I'm some sort of nut to others. I can't even be sure if what I think may be the cause is actually the reason but what I've read suggests that it may be.

****************************************************************************************************
>
> IsoM, I realize this is almost completely off topic but can you attribute anything to your immunity. I don't seem to get much either, except occasional sinus infections and a chronically congested nose/throat. I still catch colds every once in a while, though most drug stores have that nose spray (Zicort or something along those lines) that has been proven to make them go away faster...works for me. I also take vit. c, vit. e, and all the B's. What do you recommend?
>
> JGalt

 

Re: Provigil-Modafinil-Adrafinil? manowar

Posted by kregpark@yahoo.com on January 4, 2002, at 3:22:26

In reply to Re: Provigil-Modafinil-Adrafinil? IsoM, posted by manowar on January 3, 2002, at 20:12:52

Not sure if you knew it or not but Pro"vigil" is named as such for it's "vigilance" promoting effects. I'm not certain but I think the term is even used in the PDR writeup. Anyhow - speaking of vigilance I have got to put vigilance to bed and choose to sleep!! Anybody else noticing that they're choosing not to sleep as much sometimes? :)

kregpark

p.s. amisulpride so far so good actually excellent. If it keeps up I'll post more but right now I'm just adding 12.5mg to 60Nardil+2.5Klonopin+100Provigil. For now I'm with Nardil but would like to try a switch to Eldepryl if this keeps working so well.

http://www.socialfear.com/

> Not at all. I felt nothing, and still don't.
> When I took the Adrafinil I felt no side effects, but I didn't seem to experience any noticeable change in mood either. I guess for me it has to build up in my system. Funny thing is, I've been more vigilant over the last week. I mean it's hard to explain. It's like I don't mind doing the dishes, cleaning the bathroom, cooking dinner--generally functioning like a normal human being. My cognitive abilities have increased dramatically, for sure. Give me a couple more weeks, and I'll be able to give you a more definitive answer whether the drug is working or not. I might just be on a positive mood swing, and it may have nothing to do with the Adrafinil/Provigil. But I'm very optimistic at this point. I use the Burns Depression Index twice a week to chart my moods. For the last week and a half I've been in complete remission!
>
> (Doesn't this post sound much like your post to me about 2-3 weeks ago:))
>
>
> > I know what you mean about other stims. I can feel my mood rise & then drop as it wears off. I want to feel normal all the time, not like a sine wave.
>
> That's a good one. I remember depending on pills throughout the day to help my mood; what a drag. I like the typical AD effect much better. I feel less like a druggy.
>
> >
> > ***************************************************************************************************
> >
> > > I would just like to say that I'm very happy to be off the typical pstims. I just started 300 mg of Modafinil yest, and I've been taking Adrafinil before that for about 1 1/2 weeks.
> > >
> > > I'll tell you why I don't like the normal pstims: The effect of the drugs is so immediate, and its like if I did something creative, I didn't take credit for it-- I thought it was the drug. I don't like psychological dependence, and now I know why pdocs are very reluctant to use typical pstims.
> > >
> > > I hope the Modafinil works; I need to give it time.
>
> --Tim

 

Provigil=Pstims for me

Posted by Hattree on January 4, 2002, at 9:41:47

In reply to Re: Provigil-Modafinil-Adrafinil? manowar, posted by kregpark@yahoo.com on January 4, 2002, at 3:22:26

I find that I respond Modafinil more or less the same way as I respond to the more traditional stimulants. It varies from dex, adderall, and phentermine not much more than they vary among themselves. Anyone else?

 

Provigil=Pstims for me

Posted by Hattree on January 4, 2002, at 9:42:17

In reply to Re: Provigil-Modafinil-Adrafinil? manowar, posted by kregpark@yahoo.com on January 4, 2002, at 3:22:26

I find that I respond Modafinil more or less the same way as I respond to the more traditional stimulants. It varies from dex, adderall, and phentermine not much more than they vary among themselves. Anyone else?

 

I'm happy for ya. IsoM

Posted by manowar on January 4, 2002, at 14:14:27

In reply to for manowar manowar, posted by IsoM on January 4, 2002, at 1:31:53

> < ....Funny thing is, I've been more vigilant over the last week. I mean it's hard to explain. It's like I don't mind doing the dishes, cleaning the bathroom, cooking dinner--generally functioning like a normal human being. My cognitive abilities have increased dramatically, for sure.
>
> **************************************************************************************************
>
> Yes, your post sounds much like mine did. I'm so glad for you! All the ordinary humdrum things became enjoyable to do. And it feels like I really have a brain again. I've got an IQ way up there (no boasting, just stating facts) but a lot of good it did me when I couldn't seem to remember what I was even thinking about, or would be in the middle of a sentence & wonder what I was talking about.
>
> My Mom told me when I was little, I was always singing. I do remember my brothers asking her to make me shut up. I wasn't even conscious of starting again, but lately, I'd find myself working at something & quietly singing or humming to myself. It's a sign of the improvement in my mood.
***********************************************
I hope that you continue to do well. Thanks, for taking the time to share posts with me a few weeks ago concerning Adrafinil/Modafinil. I really think the Adrafinil/Modafinil have made a huge difference so far, but I'm keeping my fingers crossed:)

--Tim


 

Optimistic too - but think this will really work! (nm) manowar

Posted by IsoM on January 4, 2002, at 14:27:36

In reply to I'm happy for ya. IsoM, posted by manowar on January 4, 2002, at 14:14:27

 

Re: Provigil-Modafinil-Adrafinil? kregpark@yahoo.com

Posted by Rick on January 5, 2002, at 0:58:52

In reply to Re: Provigil-Modafinil-Adrafinil? manowar, posted by kregpark@yahoo.com on January 4, 2002, at 3:22:26

>For now I'm with Nardil but would like to try a switch to Eldepryl if this keeps working so well.

I came into this thread late, but am forbidding myself to go back and review it right now because I *do* -- to answer your question -- sometimes deny myself sufficient sleep since starting Provigil.

But if you're talking about using Eldepryl (selegiline) as a replacement for Nardil for Social Phobia...I strongly recommend against it. That was a 100% absolute unmitigated disaster for me. Just *thinking* about my experience on solo selegiline gives me the shakes. Even a tiny dose that I later used to (successfully) offset slight Klonopin-induced dulling added back some anxiety. There was a study in which selegiline was tried as a primary SP treatment, based on evidence of dopamine deficiency in social phobics, and it was of no benefit. (Again, sorry if I've missed a key point of your idea by not reading the whole thread.)

Rick

P.S. Are you convinced that mixing MAOI's and Provigil is safe? I don't see why it wouldn't be, although the mfr cautions against the combo since it hasn't been studied.

 

Re: Immune System IsoM

Posted by Lorraine on January 5, 2002, at 11:44:48

In reply to Immune System JGalt, posted by IsoM on January 4, 2002, at 1:40:37

Wish I could convince you to keep it on the board--there are a number of people here who are working with the natural/immune system approach that could benefit. I know that I am trying to work with mine and I know Shelli is planning on seeing a naturopathic doctor in DC. Everything is an experiment with an N of 1 here (I happen to believe that that is true of meds as well.) I am trying to beef up my intestinal flora. My naturalpathic doctor tested my aminos and I was deficient in a number of neurotransmitter precursors. She then prescribed a custom blend amino acid mix, but after taking it a few days my depression worsened significantly. Plus, I know that I eat enough proteins so there must be some reason why I am not assimilating them. She is interested in doing a mercury toxicity challenge with me. Perhaps we could start a thread on this topic here that is not an argument against meds (I take them and don't see an end to that in this other venture) but just an exploration of what alternative, immune or herbal approaches other folks are using and what seems to be working or not. By the way, I am even going to start working with a healer (which I suppose certifies me as either crazy or open minded depending on your approach).

Lorraine

I don't mind telling you, John, but why not e-mail me & I'll explain more. It's not some special brand of vitamins/minerals/herbs or anything like that, but I hate explaining much more here as it may sound like I'm some sort of nut to others. I can't even be sure if what I think may be the cause is actually the reason but what I've read suggests that it may be.
>
> ****************************************************************************************************
> >
> > IsoM, I realize this is almost completely off topic but can you attribute anything to your immunity. I don't seem to get much either, except occasional sinus infections and a chronically congested nose/throat. I still catch colds every once in a while, though most drug stores have that nose spray (Zicort or something along those lines) that has been proven to make them go away faster...works for me. I also take vit. c, vit. e, and all the B's. What do you recommend?
> >
> > JGalt

 

Immune System (very LONG post)

Posted by IsoM on January 5, 2002, at 13:52:24

In reply to Re: Immune System IsoM, posted by Lorraine on January 5, 2002, at 11:44:48

So many alternative treatment for illness, depression, etc are controversial & I've found people can get such hurt feelings or such anger discussing this that I've veered away from saying much. But I'll give a quick breakdown. If anything seems offensive to anyone, I'm sorry - this is just my opinion.
First, I'll say that I managed a health food store many years ago & am a firm believer in good, solid nutrition & a healthy life style. But I feel most naturopaths are simply experimenting or trying different products as a rebound for the overdependence on meical & chemical interventions in our health. I've never seen anyone who's had continued benefits from seeing chiroproactors or naturopaths. They seem to go from one doctor to another, trying one treatment after treatment. Most seem to help initially, but soon fade away. Placebo effect? Possibly. I've tried these treatments too but found little help & heard far too much mumble-jumble from the practicioners. My science/physiology background is solid enough to know that they were spouting nonsense.

Okay, here's what I opine is the main cause of my good immune system, but I've done this for ,30 years. I don't think there's any magic overnight change that could happen. Three possible interactions:

1. I've always eaten soy (in the form of soy flour & soy beans) for < 30 years. I started doing it as a cheap way of including protein in my diet. All my bread & other baked products is made with added soy flour. I read years ago how the Cornell University had developed a bread with the protein content of meat with added soy flour, wheat germ, & milk powder. that's what started me. I'll snack on roasted soy nuts too. I happen to enjoy the taste! I make my own huumus with 1/3 cooked soy beans & 2/3 chick peas. I love it too. My 3-bean salad has cooked soy beans & my baked beans use soy beans. I use tofu, soy & other beans in many foods. If done properly, they taste great. I don't use expensive soy products that are now on the market. Soy milk is still just basically water & I don't like the taste of soy cheeses. While I ate soy to increase protein in my diet, soy has been found to boost the immune system wonderfully - honest research behind these claims. (See my note at the end of all this about soy.)

2. I just happen to love the taste of vegetables that belong to the brassicae family & is supposed to be so good for us. I never tire of brocolli, Brussel sprouts, kale, cabbage, etc. And tomatoes! Mmmmm! Also supposed to have so many health benefits.

3. Vitamin D. I'm not a sun-lover - my Mom has had & keeps on too, having pre-cancerous spots removed from her skin from sun damage. Because I've avoided the sun, I always took extra vitamin D. The 400 IU recommended is actually very low. It's to prevent any possible overdoses from this vitamin as it's stored in the liver & high continued doses can be toxic. I researched as much as possible & have taken about 1000-1500 IU daily instead. I want strong bones after menopause. I never thought vitamin D did anything else, but in reading science/medical journals recently, vitamin D has been found necessary in maintaining a strong immune system. Does the amount I take help me this way? Possibly.

It's not genetics. My two brothers look so old & both are overweight; one a little, the other very much so. Both get sick a lot. My poor dear Mom is sick a lot too with frequent colds, so I don't think it's good genetics. I haven't had a flu for 27 years now, don't get colds, or other infections. I did get pneumonia when my marriage was breaking up & one son was suicidal & had to be hospitalised. The stress at the time was overwhelming.

*About soy. There's a professor, Dr. Claire Hasler, at the Universtity of Illinois who's been researching soy benefits for over 20 years. She's a firm believer in using the whole soy bean & not just extracting the isoflavones & other components from soy. She believes (& so do I) that there may be other components in the whole food that acts synergistically together to bring the greatest benefits. It's similar to how beta-carotene was isolated from foods & made into capsules. The benefits were almost nil as it needs to be in the foods to have the most effect. In fact, isolated soy extracts has sometimes been thought to have an opposite effect from strenghtening the immune system. What I've read is not from sites promoting their own products & interests, but from bonafide science journals written about the research that's being done.

If you want to check out some of Dr. Hasler's views, here's a site she has:
http://www.ag.uiuc.edu/~stratsoy/expert/askhealth.html

**************************************************************************************************

> Wish I could convince you to keep it on the board--there are a number of people here who are working with the natural/immune system approach that could benefit. I know that I am trying to work with mine and I know Shelli is planning on seeing a naturopathic doctor in DC.

 

Re: Provigil-Modafinil-Adrafinil? Rick

Posted by christophrejmc on January 5, 2002, at 14:15:53

In reply to Re: Provigil-Modafinil-Adrafinil? kregpark@yahoo.com, posted by Rick on January 5, 2002, at 0:58:52

> Even a tiny dose that I later used to (successfully) offset slight Klonopin-induced dulling added back some anxiety.

Have you ever been on an amphetamine (Adderall, Dexedrine, Desoxyn)? If so, did it cause the same anxiety you experienced with selegiline? (As I'm sure you know, two of selegiline's metabolites are l-amphetamine and l-methamphetamine.)

I'm considering trying selegiline for my depression & social phobia. (Amphetamines don't really increase my anxiety (in fact, sometimes they relieve it).)

Thanks,
Christophre

 

Re: Provigil-Modafinil-Adrafinil? christophrejmc

Posted by Rick on January 5, 2002, at 15:03:13

In reply to Re: Provigil-Modafinil-Adrafinil? Rick, posted by christophrejmc on January 5, 2002, at 14:15:53

Christophre

No, never been on amphetamines. The selegiline metabolites are the closest I've come.

But the key here is that the amphetamine metabolites are likely *not* the cause of the anxiety selegiline produced. Instead -- despite the talk of dopamine deficiency in social phobia -- I find that dopaminergic agents in general make me a lot more anxious. And I'm not the only one...most attempts to harness dopamine for social phobia have been major failures, such as the selegiline study I mentioned as well as a pergolide study where the results were so negative that the study was quickly aborted.

That doesn't mean dopamine enhancement can't play a role in social phobia treatment in some as-yet undetermined fashion. But dopamine's a complex and rather mysterious substance that can have diametrically opposing mental and physical (e.g., blood pressure modulating) impact at different binding sites, etc.

If you do give selegiline a try, please let us know how it goes.

Rick

> > Even a tiny dose that I later used to (successfully) offset slight Klonopin-induced dulling added back some anxiety.
>
> Have you ever been on an amphetamine (Adderall, Dexedrine, Desoxyn)? If so, did it cause the same anxiety you experienced with selegiline? (As I'm sure you know, two of selegiline's metabolites are l-amphetamine and l-methamphetamine.)
>
> I'm considering trying selegiline for my depression & social phobia. (Amphetamines don't really increase my anxiety (in fact, sometimes they relieve it).)
>
> Thanks,
> Christophre

 

Prov, Mod, Adraf. AMISULPRIDE. THANKS ANDREW B. Rick

Posted by kregpark@yahoo.com on January 6, 2002, at 8:36:05

In reply to Re: Provigil-Modafinil-Adrafinil? christophrejmc, posted by Rick on January 5, 2002, at 15:03:13

I saw a small study with selegiline open trial around 12 people completed I think. I read it, was inconclusive, no clearcut benefit but a few had good results and the rest unchanged.

I do think selegiline can be very useful for SP in augmention. I've tried it myself 5mg both alone and in combo.
This in spite of the fact that taken alone I also experience agitation, prosexual but generally unpleasant effect.
I do think Elderpyl can probide an excellent "base" to build on for both cases of SP which are dopaminergically responsive as well as bipolar low.

Actually I have long liked Eldepryl, but have chosen Nardil because it was just easier to work with so far, requiring less complicated combo (majority of my history is Nardil alone or Nardil + Klonopin, no other meds).

Amisulpride has been incredible so far at 25mg with my current regimen. I mentioned the possibility of Eldepryl due to so far noticing a lowered energy level, (Not surprising with my regimen). Provigil and/or W/B at high enough doses cause me hair loss so I've hestitated going higher there with my regimen for now. Other stimulants and MAOI's do not give me that problem. Energy is generally fine, but I don't have my previous level of desire to excercise and exert physically. Always into athletics and not the type to sit and watch TV, (maybe is better but ...) I am not fired up so much about physical exercise as I have always been before. Well it's just like AndrewB said, something like the "desire to grab the tiger by the tail" - I think I'm talking the same kind of thing - a more DA / NE base for amilsulpride might work better (probably at >25mg amisulpride).

I threw out the Elderpyl idea a bit early, I will not be changing anytime soon. Things are going well and I can work with and perhaps even simplify my current regimen.

To Andrew B:
Wanted to thank you for sharing your invaluable experiences, thoughts, ideas, opinion.
If not for your posts I wouldn't have known a thing about amisulpride and, crucially, so much insight into how to *use* amisulpride succesfully for dysthmia and social phobia.
There *is* some info on Medline for Dysthmia, but not for SP, and there is nothing really to "catch the eye" that amisulpride is the "med to go with" for Dysthmia.

Reading through all your posts I was able to catch enough of your insight to give it a shot, and though time will tell even 1 week has been so eye-opening!

kregpark
http://www.socialfear.com/


> But the key here is that the amphetamine metabolites are likely *not* the cause of the anxiety selegiline produced. Instead -- despite the talk of dopamine deficiency in social phobia -- I find that dopaminergic agents in general make me a lot more anxious. And I'm not the only one...most attempts to harness dopamine for social phobia have been major failures, such as the selegiline study I mentioned as well as a pergolide study where the results were so negative that the study was quickly aborted.
> That doesn't mean dopamine enhancement can't play a role in social phobia treatment in some as-yet undetermined fashion. But dopamine's a complex and rather mysterious substance that can have diametrically opposing mental and physical (e.g., blood pressure modulating) impact at different binding sites, etc.
> do give selegiline a try, please let us know how it goes.
>
> Rick

> > Have you ever been on an amphetamine (Adderall, Dexedrine, Desoxyn)? If so, did it cause the same anxiety you experienced with selegiline? (As I'm sure you know, two of selegiline's metabolites are l-amphetamine and l-methamphetamine.)
> >
> > I'm considering trying selegiline for my depression & social phobia. (Amphetamines don't really increase my anxiety (in fact, sometimes they relieve it).)
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Christophre

 

Re: Provigil-Modafinil-Adrafinil? Rick

Posted by kregpark@yahoo.com on January 6, 2002, at 9:52:10

In reply to Re: Provigil-Modafinil-Adrafinil? christophrejmc, posted by Rick on January 5, 2002, at 15:03:13

Rick -

I had a hard time not acknowledging the "SP and dopamine" issue:
I definitely do *not* think dopamine agonists are required for all people with SP.
I'm also not too clear if dopaminergics work equally well for women as men.
I *do* think a majority of males with moderate to severe SP AND timidity AND high rejection sensitivity will attain their best results with dopamine augmentation.

Although I could cite solid suggesting evidence (best) or my own regimen and experience, instead I suggest your regimen acts as a dopamine and GABA agonist with less effect on SE and NE.

100 Provigil (5ht, DA): (effect perhaps partially indirect via GABA) Site specific but clearly has characteristics of DA agonist and ex vivo shows DA re-uptake. Higher doses lead to increased wakefullness, stimulant and (at first) euphoric properties. Is self-reinforcing. Increased libido, hair loss, effective antagonist of the atypical antipsychotic clozaril.

300 Serzone: Often "prosexual" (suggestive dopamine agonist or at worst lacks net DA decline, probably indirectly by primary action as 5ht-2 antagonist.) Common side effects: increased sex drive, agitation, irritablity, hypotension. Up to date info (Medline) indicates that Serzone has *weak* 5ht re-uptake and it's *primary* effect is as 5ht-2 antagonist.

1.25 Klonopin: May cause Increase libido (in PDR also), paradoxic reaction at high dose such as aggressive behavior, hyperactivity, increased locomotion, agitation, impulsiveness, increased self-confidence, reduced rejection sensitivity. Klonopin is a 2nd line MOOD STABILIZER for bipolar swings. This suggests Klonopin compensate for low dopamine levels. Also, Davidson (1992) suggest Klonopin may have dopaminergic agonism, possibly by the overall anti-serotonin properties of Klonopin (unlike Xanax for example, which is sometimes used as anti-depressant).

Sum: Provigil: DA++ (dose dependent)
Serzone: DA or DA+
Klonopin: DA, DA+, unlikely DA-

Provigil's ability to effectively antagonize clozaril,
and ability to offset amisulpride induced energy/motor deficits
both additional evidence for DA agonism.

"Dopaminergics and anxiety": Many DA agonists also boost NE, and NE is typically more responsibe for anxiety reactions.

Examples: Eldepryl: DA++, NE++ (predict anxiety)
Wellbutrin: DA++, NE++ (predict anxiety)
Ritalin: DA++, NE++ (predict anxiety)
aminetpine: DA++, NE++ (predict anxiety)
Provigil: SE+,DA+ (predict stimulating mood lift)
Dexedrine: SE++,DA++,NE++ (predict activating feel good, confidence, energy)

amantadine: DA++, NE+ (high energy, boost sex, mild anxiety)

kregpark
http://www.socialfear.com/

> No, never been on amphetamines. The selegiline metabolites are the closest I've come.
> But the key here is that the amphetamine metabolites are likely *not* the cause of the anxiety selegiline produced. Instead -- despite the talk of dopamine deficiency in social phobia -- I find that dopaminergic agents in general make me a lot more anxious. And I'm not the only one...most attempts to harness dopamine for social phobia have been major failures, such as the selegiline study I mentioned as well as a pergolide study where the results were so negative that the study was quickly aborted.
> That doesn't mean dopamine enhancement can't play a role in social phobia treatment in some as-yet undetermined fashion. But dopamine's a complex and rather mysterious substance that can have diametrically opposing mental and physical (e.g., blood pressure modulating) impact at different binding sites, etc.
> Rick
>
>
> > > Even a tiny dose that I later used to (successfully) offset slight Klonopin-induced dulling added back some anxiety.
> > Have you ever been on an amphetamine (Adderall, Dexedrine, Desoxyn)? If so, did it cause the same anxiety you experienced with selegiline? (As I'm sure you know, two of selegiline's metabolites are l-amphetamine and l-methamphetamine.)
> > I'm considering trying selegiline for my depression & social phobia. (Amphetamines don't really increase my anxiety (in fact, sometimes they relieve it).)
> > Thanks,
> > Christophre


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