Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 86944

Shown: posts 25 to 49 of 103. Go back in thread:

 

Re: GABITRIL (tiagabine) new anti-anxiety drug?????

Posted by MB on December 20, 2001, at 0:38:02

In reply to Re: GABITRIL (tiagabine) new anti-anxiety drug????? MB, posted by Mitch on December 19, 2001, at 23:22:55

> Wow!,
>
> I had a relatively decent antidepressant response to Gabitril up to a certain level-about 12mg/day. It sure enough does flatten out your mood. Hmmm..this seems to be a certain spot that others have posted about as well (where the benefits start to switch over to unpleasant side-effects). BTW, "cooling" such hot-spots can be successful with Lithium, Depakote, Topamax, Tegretol, Trileptal, Lamictal, etc.-not just Gabitril.
> Personally---I would back off to 8mg/day and explain that reaction to this doctor and ask him if something else would work better given your adverse reactions to the med. I couldn't stand the stuff above 12mg/day.
>
> So, (IMHO), I believe your doc's assessment of the *fundamentals*-you need a mood stabilizer(s)+SSRI+psychostimulant. I also have done well with that combo (that's the combo I am on NOW-Neurontin+Klonopin+Celexa+Wellbutrin, I am counting the WB as a pstim). You are just getting a bad reaction to the Gabitril. Ask him to switch you to a different MS. Geez- Depakote, Neurontin, Lamictal. I just haven't heard any success stories with Gabitril. I had the worst derealization experience with Gabitril at 24mg/day.
>
> Mitch

Hey Mitch,
I think you're right that the Gabitril might not be the best MS for me...but I still want to give it one more try with a much slower upward titration this time. Before I start switching meds, I want to be 100% sure (or at least close to it) that it's not tolorable. This is more for my own weird obsessive reasons than for any good logical reason. I remember during my first ride on the AD merry-go-round some years ago. If I didn't like the side effects of a drug, I'd switch to a new one within a few days. Then, if I didn't like the side effects of the next drug, I would start obsessing (I mean *really* obsessing) about whether or not I had given the previous drug a good chance (maybe a lower dose would have worked? maybe this? maybe that? etc.) and I would want to go back to it for another try and the doc would be like, "Nope, we've already tried that, let's try something new." I would obsess over the "what ifs" until I drove myself crazy. So, I'm going to try a slower titration and then, if I still can't tolorate the Gabitril, I will call it an unequivocal failure and ask to have my MS changed (another reason I want to give the Gabitril another chance is that i just bought 120 pills yesterday--ouch!). The doc said that the next MS he would want to try if Gabitril didn't work would be Trileptal. Have you heard anything one way or another about its efficacy in treating rage/anger problems? Is it bacically a "safer Tegretol"?

Out of curiosity, what type of titration schedule did you use to get up to 24 mg?

Take it easy,
MB

 

Re: GABITRIL (tiagabine) new anti-anxiety drug????? MB

Posted by Mitch on December 20, 2001, at 9:44:13

In reply to Re: GABITRIL (tiagabine) new anti-anxiety drug?????, posted by MB on December 20, 2001, at 0:38:02

> Hey Mitch,
> I think you're right that the Gabitril might not be the best MS for me...but I still want to give it one more try with a much slower upward titration this time. Before I start switching meds, I want to be 100% sure (or at least close to it) that it's not tolorable. This is more for my own weird obsessive reasons than for any good logical reason. I remember during my first ride on the AD merry-go-round some years ago. If I didn't like the side effects of a drug, I'd switch to a new one within a few days. Then, if I didn't like the side effects of the next drug, I would start obsessing (I mean *really* obsessing) about whether or not I had given the previous drug a good chance (maybe a lower dose would have worked? maybe this? maybe that? etc.) and I would want to go back to it for another try and the doc would be like, "Nope, we've already tried that, let's try something new." I would obsess over the "what ifs" until I drove myself crazy. So, I'm going to try a slower titration and then, if I still can't tolorate the Gabitril, I will call it an unequivocal failure and ask to have my MS changed (another reason I want to give the Gabitril another chance is that i just bought 120 pills yesterday--ouch!). The doc said that the next MS he would want to try if Gabitril didn't work would be Trileptal. Have you heard anything one way or another about its efficacy in treating rage/anger problems? Is it bacically a "safer Tegretol"?
>
> Out of curiosity, what type of titration schedule did you use to get up to 24 mg?
>
> Take it easy,
> MB
>


MG,

I understand what you mean about the *obsessing* about whether you missed out by switching a med too soon. I have crossed paths with several meds with several trials just to *show* myself that something or other doesn't work-sure enough. What seems to work the best for identifying something that is good is noticing a substantial improvement in the symptoms you are treating (relatively early on) without regard to side effects. The one "rule-of-thumb" that hasn't failed me yet is: If something doesn't seem to be helping (something!) after a certain length of time it probably never will.

I was on Trileptal rather briefly. I didn't get the "obviously helping me" reaction to it that I did with Depakote or Neurontin or Lithium. I got nauseated really bad-there were others here that complained of that as well. The *one* thing I did notice-it *did* improve my attentiveness, in other words I didnt' feel all dulled out by it.

As far as MS meds that helped with "rage-anger" problems Lithium and Neurontin helped the most. Depakote helped some, but it made my depression worse-which made me sullen and grouchy. OH yeah-Topamax probably would do a good job (if you can tolerate it). The Gabitril in hindsight helped with grouchiness, too-I just couldn't tolerate the cognitive adverse events. I titrated it at the slowest rate you can 4mg/week. I got to 24mg/day-hey I didn't bail out! But it was a nightmare for me.

Actually, in my honest opinion....MOST of the "anger" and "rage" problems that I have experienced were not the result of a "lack" of or "incorrect" mood stabilizer-it was a freaking antidepressant or an anxiolytic causing the problem. In my personal experience here's a few that made me a real bastard: Remeron, Effexor, Buspar. Prozac could also set me off some. Zoloft to a lesser extent. Celexa and Paxil didn't experience any grouchiness. TCA's would do it rather easily-especially desipramine. The odd-ball one is Wellbutrin. I can "feel" grouchy, but I don't pop off and start adrenalizing and ruminating. It must the impulse control with the ADHD-who knows??

good luck,

Mitch

 

Re: GABITRIL (tiagabine) new anti-anxiety drug?????

Posted by MB on December 20, 2001, at 10:47:15

In reply to Re: GABITRIL (tiagabine) new anti-anxiety drug????? MB, posted by Mitch on December 20, 2001, at 9:44:13

> > Hey Mitch,
> > I think you're right that the Gabitril might not be the best MS for me...but I still want to give it one more try with a much slower upward titration this time. Before I start switching meds, I want to be 100% sure (or at least close to it) that it's not tolorable. This is more for my own weird obsessive reasons than for any good logical reason. I remember during my first ride on the AD merry-go-round some years ago. If I didn't like the side effects of a drug, I'd switch to a new one within a few days. Then, if I didn't like the side effects of the next drug, I would start obsessing (I mean *really* obsessing) about whether or not I had given the previous drug a good chance (maybe a lower dose would have worked? maybe this? maybe that? etc.) and I would want to go back to it for another try and the doc would be like, "Nope, we've already tried that, let's try something new." I would obsess over the "what ifs" until I drove myself crazy. So, I'm going to try a slower titration and then, if I still can't tolorate the Gabitril, I will call it an unequivocal failure and ask to have my MS changed (another reason I want to give the Gabitril another chance is that i just bought 120 pills yesterday--ouch!). The doc said that the next MS he would want to try if Gabitril didn't work would be Trileptal. Have you heard anything one way or another about its efficacy in treating rage/anger problems? Is it bacically a "safer Tegretol"?
> >
> > Out of curiosity, what type of titration schedule did you use to get up to 24 mg?
> >
> > Take it easy,
> > MB
> >
>
>
> MG,
>
> I understand what you mean about the *obsessing* about whether you missed out by switching a med too soon. I have crossed paths with several meds with several trials just to *show* myself that something or other doesn't work-sure enough. What seems to work the best for identifying something that is good is noticing a substantial improvement in the symptoms you are treating (relatively early on) without regard to side effects.


Yeah...saddly, I don't notice any real benifit from the Gabitril (but I'm only on 8mg/day). What I *do* notice is that I'm mildly headachy, nauseated, and I can't remember huge chunks of yesterday...nor can I differeniate the memories I have of yesterday with the memories I have of the day before that. I was having physical symptoms *before* the medication (headache, fatigue, nausea, visual flashes of color/light) and I figured that they were psychosomatic and that they would go away with medication, but this medication is actually making it worse.


> The one "rule-of-thumb" that hasn't failed me yet is: If something doesn't seem to be helping (something!) after a certain length of time it probably never will.


The hard part for me is determining what that length of time is. There are two waiting periods, it seems...a) the time one waits for start-up side effects to diminish and b) the time one waits for the desired effects to kick in. Paxil was a medicine I tolorated pretty well after I had been on it for six months, but when I first took it I thought the doc was crazy: the stuff felt like poison. It was just a matter of waiting it out. However, in the end, it was pointless for me to "wait it out" because the medicine did absolutely nothing positive for my mood and made me gain thirty pounds. THEN, it was living hell getting off the stuff--a nightmare. So, I want to give the drug some time, but not too much time...especially since I don't notice anything good from it. How long at what dose is enough...how long is too much? It's not like I can just call my doc and ask. He's out of state and booked up for months (my next phone appointmet in in three weeks). He said that if I ran into real trouble with the Gabitril to call his secretary and he would schedule 15 minutes on the phone during his lunch hour. I don't want to put him in that situation until I've firmly decided.


> I was on Trileptal rather briefly. I didn't get the "obviously helping me" reaction to it that I did with Depakote or Neurontin or Lithium. I got nauseated really bad-there were others here that complained of that as well. The *one* thing I did notice-it *did* improve my attentiveness, in other words I didnt' feel all dulled out by it.


Trileptal *helped* your attentiveness??!! That's very cool. This stuff I'm on now is making me feel totally stupid. The pharmacist said that was supposed to be transient, though.


> As far as MS meds that helped with "rage-anger" problems Lithium and Neurontin helped the most. Depakote helped some, but it made my depression worse-which made me sullen and grouchy. OH yeah-Topamax probably would do a good job (if you can tolerate it). The Gabitril in hindsight helped with grouchiness, too-I just couldn't tolerate the cognitive adverse events. I titrated it at the slowest rate you can 4mg/week. I got to 24mg/day-hey I didn't bail out! But it was a nightmare for me.
>
> Actually, in my honest opinion....MOST of the "anger" and "rage" problems that I have experienced were not the result of a "lack" of or "incorrect" mood stabilizer-it was a freaking antidepressant or an anxiolytic causing the problem. In my personal experience here's a few that made me a real bastard: Remeron, Effexor, Buspar. Prozac could also set me off some. Zoloft to a lesser extent. Celexa and Paxil didn't experience any grouchiness. TCA's would do it rather easily-especially desipramine. The odd-ball one is Wellbutrin. I can "feel" grouchy, but I don't pop off and start adrenalizing and ruminating. It must the impulse control with the ADHD-who knows??


Interesting...just goes to show that YMMV: Wellbutrin made me absolutely, out-of-my-mind, violently enraged. I could only tolorate it with Xanax. So anxiolytics gave you anger/rage? What do you think the mechanism of *that* was? That seems almost conterintuitive that that would happen. I remember getting restless leg syndrome from Librium. Now *that* was one reaction i didn't see comming.


> good luck,
>
> Mitch


Good luck to you as well,
MB

 

Re: GABITRIL (tiagabine) new anti-anxiety drug????? MB

Posted by Mitch on December 20, 2001, at 23:23:18

In reply to Re: GABITRIL (tiagabine) new anti-anxiety drug?????, posted by MB on December 20, 2001, at 10:47:15

> > I understand what you mean about the *obsessing* about whether you missed out by switching a med too soon. I have crossed paths with several meds with several trials just to *show* myself that something or other doesn't work-sure enough. What seems to work the best for identifying something that is good is noticing a substantial improvement in the symptoms you are treating (relatively early on) without regard to side effects.
>
>
> Yeah...saddly, I don't notice any real benifit from the Gabitril (but I'm only on 8mg/day). What I *do* notice is that I'm mildly headachy, nauseated, and I can't remember huge chunks of yesterday...nor can I differeniate the memories I have of yesterday with the memories I have of the day before that. I was having physical symptoms *before* the medication (headache, fatigue, nausea, visual flashes of color/light) and I figured that they were psychosomatic and that they would go away with medication, but this medication is actually making it worse.


UH OH, That was the problems I was having with it before it got nasty. Short term memory. It was wiped. I may as well have smoked a bunch of grass and went to work. I could be working on the computer and be typing something and ....just get lost...what was it I was trying to say?..who was I writing this too?...it seemed like I was always getting lost and found-wasting a LOT of time.
>
>
> > The one "rule-of-thumb" that hasn't failed me yet is: If something doesn't seem to be helping (something!) after a certain length of time it probably never will.
>
>
> The hard part for me is determining what that length of time is. There are two waiting periods, it seems...a) the time one waits for start-up side effects to diminish and b) the time one waits for the desired effects to kick in. Paxil was a medicine I tolorated pretty well after I had been on it for six months, but when I first took it I thought the doc was crazy: the stuff felt like poison. It was just a matter of waiting it out. However, in the end, it was pointless for me to "wait it out" because the medicine did absolutely nothing positive for my mood and made me gain thirty pounds. THEN, it was living hell getting off the stuff--a nightmare. So, I want to give the drug some time, but not too much time...especially since I don't notice anything good from it. How long at what dose is enough...how long is too much? It's not like I can just call my doc and ask. He's out of state and booked up for months (my next phone appointmet in in three weeks). He said that if I ran into real trouble with the Gabitril to call his secretary and he would schedule 15 minutes on the phone during his lunch hour. I don't want to put him in that situation until I've firmly decided.

Well, it sounds to me that you can trust your feelings on this one. I would give him that call and just lay it out. Hey, you never know-all of this is experimental-he may be wanting to try the Gabitril and is getting *data* from you and others he is treating with it. Not a bad idea-BUT, if it isn't working and it is making things worse-HE needs to get THAT data.

>
>
> > I was on Trileptal rather briefly. I didn't get the "obviously helping me" reaction to it that I did with Depakote or Neurontin or Lithium. I got nauseated really bad-there were others here that complained of that as well. The *one* thing I did notice-it *did* improve my attentiveness, in other words I didnt' feel all dulled out by it.
>
>
> Trileptal *helped* your attentiveness??!! That's very cool. This stuff I'm on now is making me feel totally stupid. The pharmacist said that was supposed to be transient, though.

Oh yes. Tegretol didn't bother me much in that department either. Neurontin helps attentiveness too! It doesn't cause any trouble until I get over 900mg/day. For some reason it seems the GABA affecting anticonvulsants cause all of the stupidity. The calcium and sodium channel blockers don't seem to be nearly as bad.

Well, if it is supposed to be transient, then you could make a compromise and tell him that you will stay with 8mg/day UNTIL the cognitive dysfunction lifts-how about that one? Somehow, I don't think it is going to be transient.

>
>
> > As far as MS meds that helped with "rage-anger" problems Lithium and Neurontin helped the most. Depakote helped some, but it made my depression worse-which made me sullen and grouchy. OH yeah-Topamax probably would do a good job (if you can tolerate it). The Gabitril in hindsight helped with grouchiness, too-I just couldn't tolerate the cognitive adverse events. I titrated it at the slowest rate you can 4mg/week. I got to 24mg/day-hey I didn't bail out! But it was a nightmare for me.
> >
> > Actually, in my honest opinion....MOST of the "anger" and "rage" problems that I have experienced were not the result of a "lack" of or "incorrect" mood stabilizer-it was a freaking antidepressant or an anxiolytic causing the problem. In my personal experience here's a few that made me a real bastard: Remeron, Effexor, Buspar. Prozac could also set me off some. Zoloft to a lesser extent. Celexa and Paxil didn't experience any grouchiness. TCA's would do it rather easily-especially desipramine. The odd-ball one is Wellbutrin. I can "feel" grouchy, but I don't pop off and start adrenalizing and ruminating. It must the impulse control with the ADHD-who knows??
>
>
> Interesting...just goes to show that YMMV: Wellbutrin made me absolutely, out-of-my-mind, violently enraged. I could only tolorate it with Xanax. So anxiolytics gave you anger/rage? What do you think the mechanism of *that* was? That seems almost conterintuitive that that would happen. I remember getting restless leg syndrome from Librium. Now *that* was one reaction i didn't see comming.

Oh, I didn't say *which* anxiolytics made me grouchy. Valium was the worst. I sucker punched my Dad on that when he asked me one morning to do a relatively minor thing and I went off. Buspar made my angry ruminations worse (and did Remeron), BUT I had probably zero anxiety. Take away the anxiety and you have got a real pistol? Klonopin-Ativan-Xanax, those were different, nothing remarkable there.
>
>
> > good luck,
> >
> > Mitch
>
>
> Good luck to you as well,
> MB

 

Re: GABITRIL (tiagabine) new anti-anxiety drug????? Mitch

Posted by MB on December 21, 2001, at 11:32:06

In reply to Re: GABITRIL (tiagabine) new anti-anxiety drug????? MB, posted by Mitch on December 20, 2001, at 23:23:18

> > Yeah...saddly, I don't notice any real benifit from the Gabitril (but I'm only on 8mg/day). What I *do* notice is that I'm mildly headachy, nauseated, and I can't remember huge chunks of yesterday...nor can I differeniate the memories I have of yesterday with the memories I have of the day before that. I was having physical symptoms *before* the medication (headache, fatigue, nausea, visual flashes of color/light) and I figured that they were psychosomatic and that they would go away with medication, but this medication is actually making it worse.
>
>
> UH OH, That was the problems I was having with it before it got nasty. Short term memory. It was wiped. I may as well have smoked a bunch of grass and went to work. I could be working on the computer and be typing something and ....just get lost...what was it I was trying to say?..who was I writing this too?...it seemed like I was always getting lost and found-wasting a LOT of time.


Yeah, it's totally scary. I was driving home last night, and all of a sudden had this horrible realization that I didn't know where I was or where I was going. I looked around and figured it out after a few seconds, but those few seconds were creepy.


> > > The one "rule-of-thumb" that hasn't failed me yet is: If something doesn't seem to be helping (something!) after a certain length of time it probably never will.
> >
> >
> > The hard part for me is determining what that length of time is. There are two waiting periods, it seems...a) the time one waits for start-up side effects to diminish and b) the time one waits for the desired effects to kick in. Paxil was a medicine I tolorated pretty well after I had been on it for six months, but when I first took it I thought the doc was crazy: the stuff felt like poison. It was just a matter of waiting it out. However, in the end, it was pointless for me to "wait it out" because the medicine did absolutely nothing positive for my mood and made me gain thirty pounds. THEN, it was living hell getting off the stuff--a nightmare. So, I want to give the drug some time, but not too much time...especially since I don't notice anything good from it. How long at what dose is enough...how long is too much? It's not like I can just call my doc and ask. He's out of state and booked up for months (my next phone appointmet in in three weeks). He said that if I ran into real trouble with the Gabitril to call his secretary and he would schedule 15 minutes on the phone during his lunch hour. I don't want to put him in that situation until I've firmly decided.
>
> Well, it sounds to me that you can trust your feelings on this one. I would give him that call and just lay it out. Hey, you never know-all of this is experimental-he may be wanting to try the Gabitril and is getting *data* from you and others he is treating with it. Not a bad idea-BUT, if it isn't working and it is making things worse-HE needs to get THAT data.


I'll give it a couple of days longer, but that's it. I can't go back to school if I can't remember my name. That's just plain ridiculous.


> > > I was on Trileptal rather briefly. I didn't get the "obviously helping me" reaction to it that I did with Depakote or Neurontin or Lithium. I got nauseated really bad-there were others here that complained of that as well. The *one* thing I did notice-it *did* improve my attentiveness, in other words I didnt' feel all dulled out by it.
> >
> >
> > Trileptal *helped* your attentiveness??!! That's very cool. This stuff I'm on now is making me feel totally stupid. The pharmacist said that was supposed to be transient, though.
>
> Oh yes. Tegretol didn't bother me much in that department either. Neurontin helps attentiveness too! It doesn't cause any trouble until I get over 900mg/day. For some reason it seems the GABA affecting anticonvulsants cause all of the stupidity. The calcium and sodium channel blockers don't seem to be nearly as bad.


Depakote is a calcium channel blocker, right? That drug kind of scares me. I hear stories of people blowing their livers out, normally thin people gaining 60 lbs in a matter of months, women pulling wads of hair out of the drain after every shower. YIKES. Was your experience with Depakote like this, or was it less severe?


> Well, if it is supposed to be transient, then you could make a compromise and tell him that you will stay with 8mg/day UNTIL the cognitive dysfunction lifts-how about that one? Somehow, I don't think it is going to be transient.


I've often wondered if side effects are ever really transient, or if the patient just "gets used" to feeling like shit. after a year or so on Paxil, I thought the only side effect was drowsyness, but when I quit taking it, I started realising things like: "Wow, my neck isn't stiff anymore," "Wow, I don't get out of breath from walking to the bathreoom anymore," "Wow, I'm not grinding my teeth anymore." I had forgotten what it was like NOT to do those things. The effects never went away, I just accepted them as part of life after a while. I don't want to "accept" being stupid and not knowing what day of the week it is or what town I live in.


> > > As far as MS meds that helped with "rage-anger" problems Lithium and Neurontin helped the most. Depakote helped some, but it made my depression worse-which made me sullen and grouchy. OH yeah-Topamax probably would do a good job (if you can tolerate it).


Isn't Topomax supposed to be even *worse* in the cognative department? Have you taken it (maybe you've said, but right now I can't remember)? Dr. Phelps (the bipolar doc) refers to it on his web site as "Stupimax".


> > > The Gabitril in hindsight helped with grouchiness, too-I just couldn't tolerate the cognitive adverse events. I titrated it at the slowest rate you can 4mg/week. I got to 24mg/day-hey I didn't bail out! But it was a nightmare for me.


At what dose did you find the Gabitril to help with your grouchiness? Was it immediate, or was it only at the 24mg dose?


> > Interesting...just goes to show that YMMV: Wellbutrin made me absolutely, out-of-my-mind, violently enraged. I could only tolorate it with Xanax. So anxiolytics gave you anger/rage? What do you think the mechanism of *that* was? That seems almost conterintuitive that that would happen. I remember getting restless leg syndrome from Librium. Now *that* was one reaction i didn't see comming.
>
> Oh, I didn't say *which* anxiolytics made me grouchy. Valium was the worst. I sucker punched my Dad on that when he asked me one morning to do a relatively minor thing and I went off. Buspar made my angry ruminations worse (and did Remeron), BUT I had probably zero anxiety. Take away the anxiety and you have got a real pistol? Klonopin-Ativan-Xanax, those were different, nothing remarkable there.

Isn't it interesting that different drugs from the same class can cause such different reactions in a person? Ativan makes me completely dissociate from reality, while the other benzos don't. Also, about anxiety...for me there seems to be two components: a) the pounding heart, queasy/cramped stomach, sweaty hand component (i.e., the physical); and b) the ruminating worry, impending doom component (i.e., the psychological). My experience with the BuSpar and (so far) the Gabitril, is that they only take care of the mental component but not the physical.

 

Re: GABITRIL (tiagabine) new anti-anxiety drug????? MB

Posted by Mitch on December 21, 2001, at 13:08:18

In reply to Re: GABITRIL (tiagabine) new anti-anxiety drug????? Mitch, posted by MB on December 21, 2001, at 11:32:06

> > Oh yes. Tegretol didn't bother me much in that department either. Neurontin helps attentiveness too! It doesn't cause any trouble until I get over 900mg/day. For some reason it seems the GABA affecting anticonvulsants cause all of the stupidity. The calcium and sodium channel blockers don't seem to be nearly as bad.
> Depakote is a calcium channel blocker, right? That drug kind of scares me. I hear stories of people blowing their livers out, normally thin people gaining 60 lbs in a matter of months, women pulling wads of hair out of the drain after every shower. YIKES. Was your experience with Depakote like this, or was it less severe?

How all of the anticonvulsants *work* isn't entirely known for all of them. Depakote tends to increase whole brain GABA, so you could say that it is a GABA-ergic medication. I had some mild weight gain (about 10-15 lbs), no hair loss, and it didn't effect my cognitive functioning too adversely. The ones that definitely wrecked my attentiveness/memory were Gabitril and Topamax.
The liver thing with Depakote is overblown. That is mainly a problem with children. It's a good idea to get a liver function test done, however, and check it every six months or so-especially at higher doses. Neurontin is supposed to be a selective calcium-ion channel blocker in the hippocampus, it does't appear to affect GABA like many think (even though the gabapentin molecule "looks" like GABA). BTW, a lot of folks with partial complex seizures worsen on some anti-epileptic drugs (AED's), and experience *increased* seizure activity. Some folks with CPS, do in fact experience *improved* cognitive functioning IF they find the right AED. How strong the relationship between seizures/epilepsy and bipolar?? Who knows.


> > > > As far as MS meds that helped with "rage-anger" problems Lithium and Neurontin helped the most. Depakote helped some, but it made my depression worse-which made me sullen and grouchy. OH yeah-Topamax probably would do a good job (if you can tolerate it).
>
>
> Isn't Topomax supposed to be even *worse* in the cognative department? Have you taken it (maybe you've said, but right now I can't remember)? Dr. Phelps (the bipolar doc) refers to it on his web site as "Stupimax".

Yes, I have, and yes it did! However, I didn't get a problem with it as I did with Gabitril. However, I only took 50mg/day of Topamax. I found if I only took 25mg/day at bedtime it worked fairly OK, but it took several hours after I got up to get to functioning again. Probably not a good pick if you are reacting this badly to the Gabitril as I did.

>
> > > > The Gabitril in hindsight helped with grouchiness, too-I just couldn't tolerate the cognitive adverse events. I titrated it at the slowest rate you can 4mg/week. I got to 24mg/day-hey I didn't bail out! But it was a nightmare for me.
>
>
> At what dose did you find the Gabitril to help with your grouchiness? Was it immediate, or was it only at the 24mg dose?

I noticed an antidepresant effect as soon as I got up to 8mg/day. When I reached 12mg/day that was when I began to notice the mood stabilization. However I couldn't THINK. What good is an MS if it impairs nearly everything, just so you are not a little grouchy. There are superior alternatives, combinations.


>
>
> > > Interesting...just goes to show that YMMV: Wellbutrin made me absolutely, out-of-my-mind, violently enraged. I could only tolorate it with Xanax. So anxiolytics gave you anger/rage? What do you think the mechanism of *that* was? That seems almost conterintuitive that that would happen. I remember getting restless leg syndrome from Librium. Now *that* was one reaction i didn't see comming.
> >
> > Oh, I didn't say *which* anxiolytics made me grouchy. Valium was the worst. I sucker punched my Dad on that when he asked me one morning to do a relatively minor thing and I went off. Buspar made my angry ruminations worse (and did Remeron), BUT I had probably zero anxiety. Take away the anxiety and you have got a real pistol? Klonopin-Ativan-Xanax, those were different, nothing remarkable there.
>
> Isn't it interesting that different drugs from the same class can cause such different reactions in a person? Ativan makes me completely dissociate from reality, while the other benzos don't. Also, about anxiety...for me there seems to be two components: a) the pounding heart, queasy/cramped stomach, sweaty hand component (i.e., the physical); and b) the ruminating worry, impending doom component (i.e., the psychological). My experience with the BuSpar and (so far) the Gabitril, is that they only take care of the mental component but not the physical.

Interesting, I noticed more improvement with the physical manifestations of panic anxiety, rather than the mental-probably because I suffer from derealization/depersonalization problems and any meds that can cause DR/DP can really aggravate my psychic symptoms.

Mitch

 

Re: GABITRIL (tiagabine) new anti-anxiety drug????? Mitch

Posted by MB on December 21, 2001, at 18:46:04

In reply to Re: GABITRIL (tiagabine) new anti-anxiety drug????? MB, posted by Mitch on December 21, 2001, at 13:08:18

OK, I finally called the clinic and left a message for the doctor that I'm worried about the Gabitril...that the side effects at 8mg are lame and that they get worse at 12mg. He's on vacation, but the pdoc filling in is going to give me instructions...I'm just waiting for the call. I've had illusions before where things look different than they're supposed to, but today...today, I've been looking at things, and they look they way they are supposed to, but the stimulous is registering in my mind as something else. I read a word on the TV today, it looked the way it was suppsed to, but my mind told me I had just seen the image of a troll. That's too weird. Yesterday, I screamed and had a panic attack because I thought my coat was a person. It feels like a low dose of PCP (which I smoked by accident when I was a kid). I really want to get to a therapeutic dose of *something* (because the depression and anxiety are literally driving me crazy) but all that the Gabitril is doing is causing me to feel like I'm in a dream and that nothing's real. I probably speak for eveyone when I say that I just wish they could come up with something that works, works fast, and doesn't give side effects worse than the original problem. Sorry about the negativity, but terminal negativity is one of my problems...heh heh heh(sad nervous laughter).

I'll let you know what instructions the doc calls back with. By the way, I really appreciate being able to discuss my Gabitril experience with you...I'd really be worried if I didn't have acces to someone who had taken the stuff before. So, Thanks.

MB

 

Re: GABITRIL (tiagabine) new anti-anxiety drug????? MB

Posted by Mitch on December 21, 2001, at 21:26:40

In reply to Re: GABITRIL (tiagabine) new anti-anxiety drug????? Mitch, posted by MB on December 21, 2001, at 18:46:04

> OK, I finally called the clinic and left a message for the doctor that I'm worried about the Gabitril...that the side effects at 8mg are lame and that they get worse at 12mg. He's on vacation, but the pdoc filling in is going to give me instructions...I'm just waiting for the call. I've had illusions before where things look different than they're supposed to, but today...today, I've been looking at things, and they look they way they are supposed to, but the stimulous is registering in my mind as something else. I read a word on the TV today, it looked the way it was suppsed to, but my mind told me I had just seen the image of a troll. That's too weird. Yesterday, I screamed and had a panic attack because I thought my coat was a person. It feels like a low dose of PCP (which I smoked by accident when I was a kid). I really want to get to a therapeutic dose of *something* (because the depression and anxiety are literally driving me crazy) but all that the Gabitril is doing is causing me to feel like I'm in a dream and that nothing's real. I probably speak for eveyone when I say that I just wish they could come up with something that works, works fast, and doesn't give side effects worse than the original problem. Sorry about the negativity, but terminal negativity is one of my problems...heh heh heh(sad nervous laughter).
>
> I'll let you know what instructions the doc calls back with. By the way, I really appreciate being able to discuss my Gabitril experience with you...I'd really be worried if I didn't have acces to someone who had taken the stuff before. So, Thanks.
>
> MB


OMG!,

You are getting that derealization side-effect from that med. I would back off to 4mg at bedtime and coast through this until you get some communication with your pdoc. I tried PCP once when I was a teenager (about 25 years ago) and come to think of it-is very similar to the worse sfx of this med. When I get cognitive side-effects from anticonvulsants that is what they are like. I would distinctively mention "derealization" and "depersonalization" reactions-may he can get the banana!-let's hope.
Hang in there,

Mitch

 

Re: GABITRIL (tiagabine) new anti-anxiety drug?????

Posted by MB on December 22, 2001, at 10:34:46

In reply to Re: GABITRIL (tiagabine) new anti-anxiety drug????? MB, posted by Mitch on December 21, 2001, at 21:26:40

> > OK, I finally called the clinic and left a message for the doctor that I'm worried about the Gabitril...that the side effects at 8mg are lame and that they get worse at 12mg. He's on vacation, but the pdoc filling in is going to give me instructions...I'm just waiting for the call. I've had illusions before where things look different than they're supposed to, but today...today, I've been looking at things, and they look they way they are supposed to, but the stimulous is registering in my mind as something else. I read a word on the TV today, it looked the way it was suppsed to, but my mind told me I had just seen the image of a troll. That's too weird. Yesterday, I screamed and had a panic attack because I thought my coat was a person. It feels like a low dose of PCP (which I smoked by accident when I was a kid). I really want to get to a therapeutic dose of *something* (because the depression and anxiety are literally driving me crazy) but all that the Gabitril is doing is causing me to feel like I'm in a dream and that nothing's real. I probably speak for eveyone when I say that I just wish they could come up with something that works, works fast, and doesn't give side effects worse than the original problem. Sorry about the negativity, but terminal negativity is one of my problems...heh heh heh(sad nervous laughter).
> >
> > I'll let you know what instructions the doc calls back with. By the way, I really appreciate being able to discuss my Gabitril experience with you...I'd really be worried if I didn't have acces to someone who had taken the stuff before. So, Thanks.
> >
> > MB
>
>
> OMG!,
>
> You are getting that derealization side-effect from that med. I would back off to 4mg at bedtime and coast through this until you get some communication with your pdoc. I tried PCP once when I was a teenager (about 25 years ago) and come to think of it-is very similar to the worse sfx of this med. When I get cognitive side-effects from anticonvulsants that is what they are like. I would distinctively mention "derealization" and "depersonalization" reactions-may he can get the banana!-let's hope.
> Hang in there,
>
> Mitch


The nurse called me back and said that the fill-in doc wanted me off the medication, but to titrate down...not to just quit taking it. I was up to 12mg (Thursday night) so last night I took 8mg, and I figure that tonight I'll drop to 4mg and hold it there a few before stopping completely. I haven't been on it more than a week, I figure that won't be too quick. I wonder what the side effects are to withdrawing too quickly. I guess if I have a seizure, I dropped the dose too quickly (LOL)!! An interesting note: before I started this medication, I was getting these weird pressure headaches (more pressure than ache, actually) accompanied by nausea, sensitivity to light, stomach cramps, etc. They usually happend about 2 - 2.5 hrs after jogging or weight lifting. I would usually get extremely spacy during the precipitation workout and see some flashing lights and weird visual effects. I thought these symptoms were totally psychosomatic and that after I got on some meds, they'd go away. When I started the Gabitril, the symptoms got worse, and I, in my infinite paranoia, decided I must have a brain tumor so I went to urgent care at 8pm and the doc told me he thought it was something called a migraine eqivalent (bacically a migraine without the severe headache). He wants me to quit all caffeine and see my regualar doc in a week (ouch on the no caffine). Anyway, the reason I bring this up is that the Gabitril caused me to see the flashing lights even without the the "migraine-like episodes". I wonder if there's some connection here. I'm still worried about a brain tumor (yes paranoia). The urgent care doc looked in my eyes, looked in my throat, listened to my lungs and said, "well, you don't have a brain tumor or anything like that." I felt kind of patrinized. He probably saw "Gabitril" on my chart and figured that since I was "crazy" he should probably do some fluff exam to placate me. This is the medical clinic where it took me A MONTH to find out my foot was broken. It took me almost that long to find out that I actually DID have a tumor in my foot. This was after the doctor told me it was a BLISTER and that it needed to be aspirated. I don't know what the ramifications are of aspirating a tumor, but I don't think they're good. Luckily it was not cancer, otherwise my blood stream probably would have been full of it. Sometimes I get so sick of the medical comminity. If I burst an aneurysm and die, he is *SO* going to be haunted < g >

wow, I really got off topic there, didn't I?


peace,
MB


 

Re: methadone JahL

Posted by shellir on December 22, 2001, at 16:21:53

In reply to Re: methadone NikkiT2, posted by JahL on December 17, 2001, at 15:43:32

> > Jah,
> >
> > Just out of interest, are you getting your methadone prescribed?? (if you don;'t want to mention it on here, feel free to email me!!) I'm interested as I have a friend who is trying to get off heroin, and has met alot fo resistance from doctors... he's currently buying "on the street" and self medicating with it.
>

jah,

I just put a new message on today re methadone. I detoxed from over 100mg and am now on 10mg. I don't know if it is habituating, like other opiates, etc. Also, of course I don't know how I would get it after the 50 I have now. I'm not sure that knowing how to get it in england would help me in usa, but I'm curious how you get it (stacie1012km@yahoo.com).

I have just gotten out of four hospitals, forced by handcuffs when my friend took me to the emergency room and I was sent to a prison-looking hospital in washington, d.c. Then I've been at supposedly the best psychiatric hospital in pennsylvania, and I know you'll love this--they told me I need extensive therapy and discharged me. Now I am comfortably at my parents nursing the methadone that I have and debating about unilateral ect to get me out of this steep steep decline.

Are you still taking the methadone? Is it helping you?

Merry Christmas, almost.

Shellli
> I'll mail ya. So what you're saying is pdocs let opiophobia/fear of govt crackdown come before helping someone off H? I mean, isn't that what Methadone's for? I'd be interested to know just what they do prescribe M for.
>
> > I know I have been very anti methadone use in the past as I have seena friend come cold turkey off it, and it was a scary experience... but, sometimes it takes my mind a while to catch up, and I speak now eating humble pie. The idea's of its use in mental health now has me interested.
>
> Glad you've come round :-)
> I guess if you were naive about Effexor and saw a friend come off it cold turkey, you'd form a similar opinion. Of course this doesn't necessarily detract from its clinical usefulness (as w/ Methadone).
>
> Constipation not withstanding ( :-0 ), Methadone is remarkably side-effect free. Far from being a stupefacient, personally speaking it seems to improve mental clarity and enhance energy (tho' I actually feel calmer). An example: the one thing I force myself to do everyday is work out on the punch-bag for half an hour. BPII slows me down generally; I have less strength, stamina & coordination. Since taking low-dose Methadone I've managed to break a knuckle (no 6 & counting) and the rest are covered in blood-blisters (& this when wearing 1" thick gloves). In other words, I'm hitting a lot harder than usual. My body actually functions better. Weird but exciting...
>
> >Do you know of its use in helping the symptoms of BPD - not just the depression that comes with it, but the ruminating, psyhcotic thoughts etc.
>
> I probably don't know much more about Meth. than yourself. Elizabeth's the one to ask probably. Just from where I'm sitting tho', when opioids do work, they seem to help quite a broad spectrum of symptoms...
>
> So far as ruminating thoughts go, I've found Sulpiride+Lamictal to be most useful on that front. As far as Meth goes, I'd have to maintain myself on a higher dose before I could comment. I'll let ya know. Are your thoughts truly psychotic at times?
>
> Best,
> J.

 

Re: GABITRIL (tiagabine) new anti-anxiety drug????? MB

Posted by Mitch on December 22, 2001, at 17:06:39

In reply to Re: GABITRIL (tiagabine) new anti-anxiety drug?????, posted by MB on December 22, 2001, at 10:34:46

> The nurse called me back and said that the fill-in doc wanted me off the medication, but to titrate down...not to just quit taking it. I was up to 12mg (Thursday night) so last night I took 8mg, and I figure that tonight I'll drop to 4mg and hold it there a few before stopping completely. I haven't been on it more than a week, I figure that won't be too quick. I wonder what the side effects are to withdrawing too quickly. I guess if I have a seizure, I dropped the dose too quickly (LOL)!! An interesting note: before I started this medication, I was getting these weird pressure headaches (more pressure than ache, actually) accompanied by nausea, sensitivity to light, stomach cramps, etc. They usually happend about 2 - 2.5 hrs after jogging or weight lifting. I would usually get extremely spacy during the precipitation workout and see some flashing lights and weird visual effects. I thought these symptoms were totally psychosomatic and that after I got on some meds, they'd go away. When I started the Gabitril, the symptoms got worse, and I, in my infinite paranoia, decided I must have a brain tumor so I went to urgent care at 8pm and the doc told me he thought it was something called a migraine eqivalent (bacically a migraine without the severe headache). He wants me to quit all caffeine and see my regualar doc in a week (ouch on the no caffine). Anyway, the reason I bring this up is that the Gabitril caused me to see the flashing lights even without the the "migraine-like episodes". I wonder if there's some connection here. I'm still worried about a brain tumor (yes paranoia). The urgent care doc looked in my eyes, looked in my throat, listened to my lungs and said, "well, you don't have a brain tumor or anything like that." I felt kind of patrinized. He probably saw "Gabitril" on my chart and figured that since I was "crazy" he should probably do some fluff exam to placate me. This is the medical clinic where it took me A MONTH to find out my foot was broken. It took me almost that long to find out that I actually DID have a tumor in my foot. This was after the doctor told me it was a BLISTER and that it needed to be aspirated. I don't know what the ramifications are of aspirating a tumor, but I don't think they're good. Luckily it was not cancer, otherwise my blood stream probably would have been full of it. Sometimes I get so sick of the medical comminity. If I burst an aneurysm and die, he is *SO* going to be haunted < g >
>
> wow, I really got off topic there, didn't I?
>
>
> peace,
> MB

I doubt if you will have a seizure if you stopped taking it abruptly if you are down to 8mg/day anyhow. Believe it or not, people that are taking Gabitril for intractable seizures are taking between 24-56mg/day!

The migraine thing sounds interesting. I don't know if you were aware that Depakote is used for migraines 250-500mg/day. Perhaps Depakote would be a better match for you as a mood stabilizer if you are having troubles with migraines, too. According to what you said previously, your doc wants to find the "right" mood stabilizer first, then add an SSRI (the "right" one I assume), and then a stimulant,correct? Wow, that will take a while, but at least it sounds like a good plan. I wonder if he could work on the SSRI at the same time? It sounds like all of this experimentation has gotten you ruminating a lot. It isn't nice when you are withdrawn from something that didn't work and don't have anything else in place, yet.

Mitch

 

Re: GABITRIL (tiagabine) new anti-anxiety drug????? Mitch

Posted by MB on December 22, 2001, at 19:31:18

In reply to Re: GABITRIL (tiagabine) new anti-anxiety drug????? MB, posted by Mitch on December 22, 2001, at 17:06:39


> I doubt if you will have a seizure if you stopped taking it abruptly if you are down to 8mg/day anyhow. Believe it or not, people that are taking Gabitril for intractable seizures are taking between 24-56mg/day!


YIKES! How do people tolorate it in such high doses? I bet if I were suffering seizures, I would be willing to put up with a lot more in the side effects department.


> The migraine thing sounds interesting. I don't know if you were aware that Depakote is used for migraines 250-500mg/day. Perhaps Depakote would be a better match for you as a mood stabilizer if you are having troubles with migraines, too. According to what you said previously, your doc wants to find the "right" mood stabilizer first, then add an SSRI (the "right" one I assume), and then a stimulant,correct? Wow, that will take a while, but at least it sounds like a good plan.


I think it's a great plan, but the waiting is lame. Comming off the Gabitril doesn't worry me, since it never really did anything for me anyway. What *does* worry me though, is that the doctor didn't think I was going to really feel better until I was on all three medications. That could take a long time, it seems (if my intolorance to antiepileptics is anything like my intolorance to antidepressants). I guess tolorance is related to willingness (i.e., how bad am I willing to feel in exchange for relief of original symptoms). Maybe three years ago when I was taking mushrooms and smoking weed, derealization and depersonalization wouldn't have bothered me. I want a new life though, now, one based on *reality*. I mean, I'd like to finish school and get a job some day. I guess, right now, I'm not willing to put up with feeling very bad at all. If the medication feels like it's hurting my ability (or desire) to live life *in reality* then screw it.

The antiepileptic is supposed to increase my tolorance to the AD by "smoothing things out," but the idea of adding Prozac to the mix when I feel the way I do on the Gabitril scares the hell out of me. Also, now it's going to be hard to tell how the Gabitril withdrawal is affecting me because I am also weaning myself off caffeine (I tried cold-turkey and made it about 24 hrs when I said "screw this!"). One thing that is definitely food for rumination (for me) is making a change in more than one area and not knowing *which* change is making me feel the way I do.


> I wonder if he could work on the SSRI at the same time? It sounds like all of this experimentation has gotten you ruminating a lot.


That's an understatement. Also, the length of my posts is starting to scare me. I'm definitely obsessing.


> It isn't nice when you are withdrawn from something that didn't work and don't have anything else in place, yet.
>
> Mitch


Yeah, I want to move on, too. I could possibly tolorate the Prozac without an antiepileptic if I had a benzo (and that would take care of the anxiety there and then without months of waiting) but the doc wants to save that as a last resort because of my history of alcohlism. I agree with him that an AE would probably be best for the rage attacks. Did you experience any discontinuation symptoms from quitting Gabitril?

MB


 

migraine equiv. MB

Posted by christophreJMC on December 22, 2001, at 23:20:22

In reply to Re: GABITRIL (tiagabine) new anti-anxiety drug?????, posted by MB on December 22, 2001, at 10:34:46

> An interesting note: before I started this >medication, I was getting these weird pressure >headaches (more pressure than ache, actually) accompanied by nausea, sensitivity to light, stomach cramps, etc. They usually happend about 2 - 2.5 hrs after jogging or weight lifting. I would usually get extremely spacy during the precipitation workout and see some flashing lights and weird visual effects.

I sometimes have similar symptoms usually after exercise. Please let me (us) know if you find out anything more about them.

Thanks,
Christophre

 

Re: migraine equiv.

Posted by MB on December 22, 2001, at 23:31:54

In reply to migraine equiv. MB, posted by christophreJMC on December 22, 2001, at 23:20:22

> > An interesting note: before I started this >medication, I was getting these weird pressure >headaches (more pressure than ache, actually) accompanied by nausea, sensitivity to light, stomach cramps, etc. They usually happend about 2 - 2.5 hrs after jogging or weight lifting. I would usually get extremely spacy during the precipitation workout and see some flashing lights and weird visual effects.
>
> I sometimes have similar symptoms usually after exercise. Please let me (us) know if you find out anything more about them.
>
> Thanks,
> Christophre

Yeah, I'll let you know when I find out more. Are you taking any medication? Caffeine?

 

Re: migraine equiv. MB

Posted by christophreJMC on December 23, 2001, at 10:10:32

In reply to Re: migraine equiv., posted by MB on December 22, 2001, at 23:31:54

I've had them off and on medication. I don't drink much caffeine, but I can't say for sure if it played a part or not.

Out of curiosity, have you ever had an EEG?

 

Re: migraine equiv. christophreJMC

Posted by MB on December 23, 2001, at 10:44:03

In reply to Re: migraine equiv. MB, posted by christophreJMC on December 23, 2001, at 10:10:32

> I've had them off and on medication. I don't drink much caffeine, but I can't say for sure if it played a part or not.
>
> Out of curiosity, have you ever had an EEG?

No, I've never had an EEG. What would it show?

 

Re: methadone shellir

Posted by JahL on December 23, 2001, at 21:03:51

In reply to Re: methadone JahL, posted by shellir on December 22, 2001, at 16:21:53

Hi Shelli. Hope you're doing OK.

I tried mailing you but apparently yr address doesn't exist. Have you posted it right?

Best,
J.


> jah,
>
> I just put a new message on today re methadone. I detoxed from over 100mg and am now on 10mg. I don't know if it is habituating, like other opiates, etc. Also, of course I don't know how I would get it after the 50 I have now. I'm not sure that knowing how to get it in england would help me in usa, but I'm curious how you get it (stacie1012km@yahoo.com).

 

Re: methadone JahL

Posted by shellir on December 23, 2001, at 22:26:30

In reply to Re: methadone shellir, posted by JahL on December 23, 2001, at 21:03:51

> Hi Shelli. Hope you're doing OK.
>
> I tried mailing you but apparently yr address doesn't exist. Have you posted it right?
>
> Best,
> J.
>
>
> > jah,

woops, I wrote the e-mail address wrong. It's stacey1012km@yahoo.com. Sorry. If you still have the email, please send.
I'm now up to 15mg (x3) of methodone already--looks pretty habituating unfortunately.

Do you have brothers and sisters? If so, any relationship with them. Also, have you seen the new doctor again?

Shelli

 

Re: GABITRIL (tiagabine) new anti-anxiety drug????? MB

Posted by Mitch on December 26, 2001, at 18:28:14

In reply to Re: GABITRIL (tiagabine) new anti-anxiety drug????? Mitch, posted by MB on December 22, 2001, at 19:31:18

> Yeah, I want to move on, too. I could possibly tolorate the Prozac without an antiepileptic if I had a benzo (and that would take care of the anxiety there and then without months of waiting) but the doc wants to save that as a last resort because of my history of alcohlism. I agree with him that an AE would probably be best for the rage attacks. Did you experience any discontinuation symptoms from quitting Gabitril?
>
> MB


Hi, I am back. Been on the road. I had no problems stopping it (Gabitril). I immediately went back to Neurontin, but at a lower dose (300mg/day). I think low-dose Prozac+low-dose Klonopin might work great.

Mitch

 

Re: GABITRIL (tiagabine) new anti-anxiety drug????? Mitch

Posted by MB on December 26, 2001, at 19:07:21

In reply to Re: GABITRIL (tiagabine) new anti-anxiety drug????? MB, posted by Mitch on December 26, 2001, at 18:28:14

Well, I tried the Gabitril for a few more days at 12mg just to see (heck, maybe something would have clicked and it would have gotten better). It just got worse so yesterday, I only took 8mg and today I took none. Got the AE switched to Trileptal and will start that tomorrow night. I am in the middle of quitting caffeine so it might get weird differentiating Trileptal side-effects with caffeine withdrawal. I think now is a good time to start keeping a medication journal.

You mention low dose of Prozac, but the doc said he wants me on 60mg minimum for OCD (says higher doses needed for OCD than for depression). This seems really high to me, since I've only taken 20 mg before (when I talked to him the first time, I made a mistake and said I had taken 40 mg before). I guess if it helps with the obsessed thinking, I can put up with no sex life...well, maybe for a while. Do you know if Adderal (as it is a dopaminergic) will help with Prozac induced anorgasmia?

MB


> Hi, I am back. Been on the road. I had no problems stopping it (Gabitril). I immediately went back to Neurontin, but at a lower dose (300mg/day). I think low-dose Prozac+low-dose Klonopin might work great.
>
> Mitch

 

Re: GABITRIL (tiagabine) new anti-anxiety drug????? MB

Posted by Mitch on December 27, 2001, at 15:09:22

In reply to Re: GABITRIL (tiagabine) new anti-anxiety drug????? Mitch, posted by MB on December 26, 2001, at 19:07:21

> Well, I tried the Gabitril for a few more days at 12mg just to see (heck, maybe something would have clicked and it would have gotten better). It just got worse so yesterday, I only took 8mg and today I took none. Got the AE switched to Trileptal and will start that tomorrow night. I am in the middle of quitting caffeine so it might get weird differentiating Trileptal side-effects with caffeine withdrawal. I think now is a good time to start keeping a medication journal.

Good luck with the Trileptal. It made me pretty nauseous though. It didn't seem to dull my thinking however and seemed to have an antidepressant effect. I am REAL touchy with anything that causes nausea. You might do fine with it, though.

>
> You mention low dose of Prozac, but the doc said he wants me on 60mg minimum for OCD (says higher doses needed for OCD than for depression). This seems really high to me, since I've only taken 20 mg before (when I talked to him the first time, I made a mistake and said I had taken 40 mg before). I guess if it helps with the obsessed thinking, I can put up with no sex life...well, maybe for a while. Do you know if Adderal (as it is a dopaminergic) will help with Prozac induced anorgasmia?
>
> MB


Wow! 60mg! I know that folks with OCD need a pretty high dose. I just wonder if that much would be too destabilizing (worsen cycling). FWIW, I found that Zoloft gave me the least trouble with reduced libido, anorgasmia, etc. It blocks the dopamine transporter a lot more than the other SSRi's. But of course YMMV. Have you ever tried Neurontin for ruminations/OCD?? It helps some people. Maybe you can take Trileptal+Neurontin and not need an SSRI for the OCD? Just a thought.

Mitch

 

Re: GABITRIL (tiagabine) new anti-anxiety drug????? Mitch

Posted by MB on December 27, 2001, at 16:09:56

In reply to Re: GABITRIL (tiagabine) new anti-anxiety drug????? MB, posted by Mitch on December 27, 2001, at 15:09:22


> Good luck with the Trileptal. It made me pretty nauseous though. It didn't seem to dull my thinking however and seemed to have an antidepressant effect. I am REAL touchy with anything that causes nausea. You might do fine with it, though.


I hope this works (Trileptal). My stomach seems to do well with medicine that cause nausea. Today is my second day off of the Gabitril and I still feel weird, but I think some of that must be caffeine withdrawal. Today is first day off of all caffeine. I hear day three will be the worst, then it will get better. I thought about waitng until then to start Trileptal, but I want to get up and moving on some kind of regimen; the waves of anxiety/depression are getting so bad. Did you think trileptal had an anti-anxiety effect?


> > You mention low dose of Prozac, but the doc said he wants me on 60mg minimum for OCD (says higher doses needed for OCD than for depression). This seems really high to me, since I've only taken 20 mg before (when I talked to him the first time, I made a mistake and said I had taken 40 mg before). I guess if it helps with the obsessed thinking, I can put up with no sex life...well, maybe for a while. Do you know if Adderal (as it is a dopaminergic) will help with Prozac induced anorgasmia?
> >
> > MB
>
>
> Wow! 60mg! I know that folks with OCD need a pretty high dose. I just wonder if that much would be too destabilizing (worsen cycling). FWIW, I found that Zoloft gave me the least trouble with reduced libido, anorgasmia, etc. It blocks the dopamine transporter a lot more than the other SSRi's. But of course YMMV. Have you ever tried Neurontin for ruminations/OCD?? It helps some people. Maybe you can take Trileptal+Neurontin and not need an SSRI for the OCD? Just a thought.
>
> Mitch


Well, I'll try the Prozac, but I've decided I'm not going to take anything that makes me more uncomfortable than the original symptoms. That's been my experience with the SSRIs in the past. The mood stabalizer is supposed to mitigate the anxiogenic side effects of the Prozac. I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

MB

 

Re: GABITRIL (tiagabine) new anti-anxiety drug????? MB

Posted by Mitch on December 27, 2001, at 19:01:58

In reply to Re: GABITRIL (tiagabine) new anti-anxiety drug????? Mitch, posted by MB on December 27, 2001, at 16:09:56

> I hope this works (Trileptal). My stomach seems to do well with medicine that cause nausea. Today is my second day off of the Gabitril and I still feel weird, but I think some of that must be caffeine withdrawal. Today is first day off of all caffeine. I hear day three will be the worst, then it will get better. I thought about waitng until then to start Trileptal, but I want to get up and moving on some kind of regimen; the waves of anxiety/depression are getting so bad. Did you think trileptal had an anti-anxiety effect?


You are lucky you can handle nausea-provoking meds! Unfortunately, I didn't get too much of an anti-anxiety effect from Trileptal. As far as mood stabilizers that helped with anxiety/agitation I would have to say that Lithium, Neurontin, Depakote, and Topamax worked the best.


> Well, I'll try the Prozac, but I've decided I'm not going to take anything that makes me more uncomfortable than the original symptoms. That's been my experience with the SSRIs in the past. The mood stabalizer is supposed to mitigate the anxiogenic side effects of the Prozac. I'm keeping my fingers crossed.
>
> MB


Well....Prozac tends to provoke more anxiety than the other SSRI's and tends to be the most activating. Also, I haven't found mood stabilizers to "mitigate" adverse effects of antidepressants very well. Then can reduce hypomania and agitation that AD's can cause, but I think all the flak you are going to catch from taking antidepressants is going to have more to do with the AD itself and the dosage used despite whatever mood stabilizers are in place. I think it would be best to find the least destabilizing antidepressant that will help with GAD/OCD sfx, THEN find which mood stabilizer works the best on your cycling. But that's just an opinion.

Mitch

 

Re: GABITRIL (tiagabine) new anti-anxiety drug????? Mitch

Posted by MB on December 27, 2001, at 22:04:47

In reply to Re: GABITRIL (tiagabine) new anti-anxiety drug????? MB, posted by Mitch on December 27, 2001, at 19:01:58


< cut >

>I think it would be best to find the least destabilizing antidepressant that will help with GAD/OCD sfx, THEN find which mood stabilizer works the best on your cycling. But that's just an opinion.
>
> Mitch


Yeah, I figure once I get on a mood stabilizer that is both tolorable and effective, I'll have to go through the same process with the SSRIs (find one that's tolorable and effective), and then, later, do the same with the stimulants. I've tried all the SSRIs, and I liked Prozac the best (but I was also smoking weed and drinking on it, so I wouldn't have noticed anxiety/rage anyway. I found Serzone the most tolorable. No restlessness, no fatigue, no anxiety, and no anorgasmia. I haven't heard good results of treating OCD with Serzone. Have you? I'll ask my doc about it. Also, do you think the Adderal will counteract the sexual side effects of the Prozac? Just wondered since sometimes Wellbutrin is used for this (both are dopaminergic).

Anyway, enough about me. How are you doing on your medications (was it Neurontin, Celexa, Klonopin and Wellbutrin)? The only time I could handle Wellbutrin without rage attacks was with a benzo. Probably the best combo I've been on for anxiety and depression was Xanax and Wellbutrin (did nothing for my OCD though).

MB

 

Re: GABITRIL (tiagabine) new anti-anxiety drug????? MB

Posted by Mitch on December 27, 2001, at 22:48:33

In reply to Re: GABITRIL (tiagabine) new anti-anxiety drug????? Mitch, posted by MB on December 27, 2001, at 22:04:47

> Yeah, I figure once I get on a mood stabilizer that is both tolorable and effective, I'll have to go through the same process with the SSRIs (find one that's tolorable and effective), and then, later, do the same with the stimulants. I've tried all the SSRIs, and I liked Prozac the best (but I was also smoking weed and drinking on it, so I wouldn't have noticed anxiety/rage anyway. I found Serzone the most tolorable. No restlessness, no fatigue, no anxiety, and no anorgasmia. I haven't heard good results of treating OCD with Serzone. Have you?

You are kind of begging your own question there! :) You found Serzone the most tolerable and you must have noticed its effect on your OCD-you said "no anxiety".
You may already have found your "SSRI". Serzone is a weak SSri-BTW. It just also happens to antagonize 5-HT2a receptors.


> I'll ask my doc about it. Also, do you think the Adderal will counteract the sexual side effects of the Prozac? Just wondered since sometimes Wellbutrin is used for this (both are dopaminergic).

It might. But, I have found that switching the med that is causing the problem is a superior solution to finding an additional med to "reverse" side-effects.

> Anyway, enough about me. How are you doing on your medications (was it Neurontin, Celexa, Klonopin and Wellbutrin)? The only time I could handle Wellbutrin without rage attacks was with a benzo. Probably the best combo I've been on for anxiety and depression was Xanax and Wellbutrin (did nothing for my OCD though).
>
> MB

That's my combo. I "like" Zoloft better than the Celexa and I have added back a little Zoloft lately. But the sertraline just shreds my guts (IBS probs). I have also heard that Zoloft can be effective for depersonalization/derealization and I get that sfx from other meds easily-that might explain why I respond to sertraline better than the other SSRi's. The Wellbutrin is there just because of seasonal depression. Things would be pretty black right now if it wasn't for the WB. But, I am getting headaches, elevated heart rate, blurry vision (worse than nortripytline), and it doesn't help with ADHD as well as the Zoloft+nortripytline combination (both very low dose). To be honest, I think after this seasonal spell starts diminishing (in 3-4 weeks)I will probably be back on Neurontin+Klonopin+Zoloft+Nortriptyline.

Mitch


Go forward in thread:


Show another thread

URL of post in thread:


Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ


[dr. bob] Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD, bob@dr-bob.org

Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.