Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 86991

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Re: psychopharm consultation - NYC or NC

Posted by OldSchool on December 19, 2001, at 10:08:10

In reply to Re: psychopharm consultation - NYC or NC, posted by OldSchool on December 19, 2001, at 10:04:55

Correction: John Beyer at DUMC is head of the Duke Anxiety disorders clinic, not the Duke mood disorders clinic. Beyer is an excellent psychopharmacologist.

Old School

 

Re: Double Hmmmm....

Posted by stjames on December 19, 2001, at 10:18:15

In reply to Double Hmmmm...., posted by Cam W. on December 18, 2001, at 23:37:25

> Anyone got any comments? James, I'd like your opinion (seems like someone is doing their homework).
>
> - Cam

A fool and his money are easily parted.

 

Re: Hmmmm....vitamin chemical use - some facts » IsoM

Posted by Annie Z. on December 19, 2001, at 11:48:27

In reply to Re: Hmmmm....vitamin chemical use - some facts, posted by IsoM on December 17, 2001, at 0:45:05

> I did some checking about their supplement & found it's a multi-vitamin & mineral supplement.

Actually the supplement contain more than multi-vitamins and minerals. The supplement contains dl-phenylalanine, glutamine, citrus bioflavonoids, grape seed, choline, inositol, ginkgo biloba, methionine, organic germanium, as well.

What I'd like to know is why "their" supplement will make someone so much better but the competitor's supplement doesn't? Just a bunch of hype.

How and where are they hyping their product, saying it is better than the competitors?

> I also like the little disclaimer that's put on at the end:
> "These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease."

This statement is required by the FDA to be put on all nutritional supplements. The last sentence of the statement doesn’t seem to make sense, since the supplement company claims that their supplement will help cure mental illness throughout their website. Sounds to me like the FDA is trying to abridge the supplement companies’ right to free speech.

> A person using this supplements supposed to take 16 tablets a day at a cost of $68.98 a bottle! And it doesn't even let you know how many tablets in a bottle. Cheap? I hardly think so.

For about $68.98 you get 448 supplements. If you take 16 pills per day, that would last you about a month. I take 32 pills per day, costing me about $140 per month. However, the cost for the amount of medications which I gave up, and which didn’t do nearly as much for me as the supplement, is over $200.


 

About the Supplement » Annie Z.

Posted by IsoM on December 19, 2001, at 13:11:13

In reply to Re: Hmmmm....vitamin chemical use - some facts » IsoM, posted by Annie Z. on December 19, 2001, at 11:48:27

Annie, I know there are extras added to the vitamin/mineral combination - I just wonder how much is added. It would be good if they stated the amounts too. I've probably given you the impression that I'm against supplementing your diet with other nutrients. I'm definitely not! I used to manage a health food store for a number of years before it changed hands, plus have a good background in biology & some chemistry from university courses & a lot of science journal reading.

In working in the health food environment, I learned how much hype there sometimes is. It's a mult-billion dollar industry itself & wouldn't flourish if hype & advertising wasn't done. Some of the information being presented is factual about health foods & supplements but much is "hearsay". Many individuals presenting the information are not properly trained in nutrition (standard or otherwise) or biochemsitry & tend to rely on a lot of New Age fluff. It's exactly because of all this fluff, that many sensible people are scared away from taking the good information seriously.

I honestly believe that while many psychotropic medications may get the brain's chemistry working again (I compare it to a defibullator for the heart - only an illustration, not how drugs actually work), something more is needed to keep the brain working properly.

Without the proper nutrients, our body cannot optimumly make the precursors & neurotransmitters needed for healthy brain activity. Now that I'm older, I don't have the mega-appetite that I used to when young & KNOW that I can't possibly get all the nutrients I need through my diet only. I supplement. But I prefer rather than all-in-one combination to buy the supplements individually & balance them myself. I won't use gingo biloba as I don't want my blood to clot less. Whenever I've been checked in the hospital, my blood's always been at the 100% oxygenated level besides. I've eaten carefully & well & taken supplements for over 30 years & the benefits show. I don't get ill - no colds or such, but despite all this, I HAVE needed medication for depression - it has a strong hereditary streak in my family & I had a very stressful marriage with an alcoholic husband.

It's not that True Hope's supplements are bad (except if I remember right, their potassium is quite low) or that psych meds don't cost lots, it's just that their supplement is VERY expensive & a person could pay FAR, FAR less by just buying their own combination. This company is making a lot of money (yes, I know drug companies are raking it in too but they also have to fund their own research - True Hope doesn't) & they're making *overblown* statements about the benefits. THAT'S what bothers me so much - not that supplementing your diet with extra nutrients is wrong. I think it's a very good idea for everyone.

****************************************************************************************************

> > I did some checking about their supplement & found it's a multi-vitamin & mineral supplement.
>
> Actually the supplement contain more than multi-vitamins and minerals. The supplement contains dl-phenylalanine, glutamine, citrus bioflavonoids, grape seed, choline, inositol, ginkgo biloba, methionine, organic germanium, as well.
>
> What I'd like to know is why "their" supplement will make someone so much better but the competitor's supplement doesn't? Just a bunch of hype.
>
> How and where are they hyping their product, saying it is better than the competitors?
>
> > I also like the little disclaimer that's put on at the end:
> > "These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease."
>
> This statement is required by the FDA to be put on all nutritional supplements. The last sentence of the statement doesn’t seem to make sense, since the supplement company claims that their supplement will help cure mental illness throughout their website. Sounds to me like the FDA is trying to abridge the supplement companies’ right to free speech.
>
> > A person using this supplements supposed to take 16 tablets a day at a cost of $68.98 a bottle! And it doesn't even let you know how many tablets in a bottle. Cheap? I hardly think so.
>
> For about $68.98 you get 448 supplements. If you take 16 pills per day, that would last you about a month. I take 32 pills per day, costing me about $140 per month. However, the cost for the amount of medications which I gave up, and which didn’t do nearly as much for me as the supplement, is over $200.

 

Re: Double Hmmmm....

Posted by susan C on December 19, 2001, at 13:53:24

In reply to Re: Double Hmmmm...., posted by stjames on December 19, 2001, at 10:18:15

> > Anyone got any comments? James, I'd like your opinion (seems like someone is doing their homework).
> >
> > - Cam
>
> A fool and his money are easily parted.

A sucker is born every minute

mouse on a ferris wheel

 

Re: About the Supplement

Posted by stjames on December 19, 2001, at 14:11:51

In reply to About the Supplement » Annie Z., posted by IsoM on December 19, 2001, at 13:11:13

It's not that True Hope's supplements are bad (except if I remember right, their potassium is quite low) or that psych meds don't cost lots, it's just that their supplement is VERY expensive & a person could pay FAR, FAR less by just buying their own combination. This company is making a lot of money (yes, I know drug companies are raking it in too but they also have to fund their own research - True Hope doesn't) & they're making *overblown* statements about the benefits. THAT'S what bothers me so much - not that supplementing your diet with extra nutrients is wrong. I think it's a very good idea for everyone.

James here.....

Yes ! I am not saying it is foolish to supplement, it is just foolish to pay excessive
prices for common nutrients.

james

 

Re: About the Supplement » stjames

Posted by Annie Z. on December 19, 2001, at 16:26:37

In reply to Re: About the Supplement, posted by stjames on December 19, 2001, at 14:11:51

> It's not that True Hope's supplements are bad (except if I remember right, their potassium is quite low) or that psych meds don't cost lots, it's just that their supplement is VERY expensive & a person could pay FAR, FAR less by just buying their own combination.


Where is your evidence for your accusations that you make above?

Here is some evidence that seems to prove you wrong:

True Hope’s Supplement

68.98 per bottle divided by 448 supplements = 6.5 cents per tablet

Life Extension Mix

$89 divided by 519 supplements = 17 cents per tablet

GNC Multi Ultra Without Iron, Timed Release Tablets

$24.99 divided by 90 = 26 cents per tablet

Geritol: Complete Multi-Vitamin Mineral Supplement, Tablets

$9.99 divided by 100 = 10 cents per tablet

Centrum Multivitamin/Multimineral with Lutein, Buy 100 Get 30 Free, Tablets

$9.99 divided by 130 = 7.6 cents per tablet


Doesn’t seem like it is fair of you to make accusations like you did above without doing any homework and offering no evidence on the subject. I think it would be fair to say though that this post does expose a pre-existing prejudice that you have against the supplement.


 

Re: About the Supplement

Posted by stjames on December 19, 2001, at 17:17:51

In reply to Re: About the Supplement » stjames, posted by Annie Z. on December 19, 2001, at 16:26:37

I think you are clueless. Dosage, honey, not pills !

 

Re: $40.00 vs 150.00 (basic math)

Posted by stjames on December 19, 2001, at 17:30:27

In reply to Re: About the Supplement, posted by stjames on December 19, 2001, at 17:17:51

From the archives:

http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20010530/msgs/65133.html

I have spent a little time evaluating what appeared to me to be a rather hight cost for E.M.POWER+
as quoted by the Synergy Group of Canada for their supplement: basically US $150.00/month.
The results I what I find: purchasing the equivalent would probably cost your abour $40.00/month

The E.M.POWER+ Ingredient List contains (1) Vitamins (2) Minerals (3) "Proprietary Blend"

(1) The Vitamin daily dosage (32 pills), when compared to a widely available commercial product (Theragran-M, by Bristol-Myers) works out to almost exactly 4 times the amount in each of the "Theragran" tablets.
(2) The Mineral daily dosages are mostly substantially higher than the "Theragran" product (including Theragran's "Vitamin/Mineral" supplement)
(3) The non-mineral "proprietary blend" (Ginko, Grape Seed, etc.) dosages are not stated on their web site, but I have been told by a research pharmacologist who has seen the data that the dosage level is so low as to be "negligible". I would state this Dr.'s name, but I have not asked his permission to quote this.

Cost evaluation:
(1) The equivalent vitamins purchased as "Theragran" would cost approximately $6.00 to $8.00/month.
This is computed: (30 days * 4 capsules * $.06/capsule)

(2) The minerals, as priced from Web sources, would cost approx $20.00 month
This is based on sample prices for "Mega Multi Mineral formula" from Solaray.
This is computed: (30 days * 8 capsules * $.08/capsule)
Please note that the following minerals in both "Truehope" and "Solaray's" products include the AMINO ACID CHELATED form of the mineral: Calcium, Iron, Manganese, Chromium, Molybdenum, Boron, Vanadiuim, and Nickel.
As chelated forms of the minerals, they appear to be more expensive than those minerals found in "standard" vitamin/mineral supplements.

(3) As the information I have been given about the Ginko, etc. is that the dosage levels are very low, I can only state that the cost must also be pretty low....

So, the "equivalent" cost"
..Theragran vitamins (or equiv).........$ 8.00
..Minerals (chelelated)......................$20.00
..Ginko, extra Vit B12/C etc.(estimate!)$12.00
Estimated Probable total............ $40.00/month

Pills per day
....The Truehope formula requires 32 capsules/day
....An "equivalent" works out to about 20 or so pills/day
........(4 regular vitamin pills)
........(8 mineral pills)
........(4 "extra" vitamin pills: C,B12, etc.)
........("x" "herbal supplement pills)

When I confronted a "Truehope" representative about the comparatively hight cost of their product, they advised me that their's had a very high "bio-availabilty" rating. However, no one has been able to give me any evidence of either direct or comparative measurement of that!

NOTE: I AM NOT RECOMMENDING TAKING THIS MUCH "STUFF". PARTICULARYLY SOME MINERAL DOSES IN HIGH LEVELS HAVE BEEN REPORTED TO CAUSE PROBLEMS, AS WELL AS VITAMIN A IN DOSES THIS HIGH
FURTHERMORE, IF ONE'S LIVER OR KIDNEY FUNCTION IS IMPARIED, HIGH DOSES MAY (I UNDERSTAND) CAUSE PROBLEMS.

NOR AM I RECOMMENDING ANY BRAND OF VITAMIN OR MINERAL SUPPLIER! THOSE NAMES PROVIDED ARE FOR REFERENCE ONLY, SHOULD YOU CARE TO VALIDATE MY INFORMATION.


 

Re: About the Supplement » IsoM

Posted by Annie Z. on December 19, 2001, at 17:33:18

In reply to About the Supplement » Annie Z., posted by IsoM on December 19, 2001, at 13:11:13

Finally…someone with a calmer, more reasonable approach to the subject. I appreciate this.
Actually, I agree with a lot with what you said.

I think you make a good point about the Gingo Biloba. Gingo Biloba must me stopped some days before elective surgery, due to the blood issue. (True Hope does say, also, to stop this drug some time before elective surgery.)

If I remember correctly, TH’s dosage of GB (per 8 or 16 tablets) is much lower than by those who supplement with GB alone. Sorry, I can’t remember the figures. If anyone is interested, please contact TH.

>. . . it's just that their supplement is VERY expensive & a person could pay FAR, FAR less by just buying their own combination.

Didn’t realize that this passage was your writing, I thought it was stjames.’ I see now that it is your’s. I respond to this paragraph in a post to stjames. Had I read your above statements first, I would have been a lot gentler than I am to stjames.

 

Balancing Supplements » Annie Z.

Posted by IsoM on December 19, 2001, at 18:07:28

In reply to Re: About the Supplement » IsoM, posted by Annie Z. on December 19, 2001, at 17:33:18

Annie, a lot of people have no idea of what kind of nutrients we need or how much, or the difference between minimum daily requirements, recommended daily requirements, & special requirements due to illness, heredity, or stresses, both physical or mental. But seeing how eager people are to do it right, it's not that difficult to learn & educate themselves correctly.

I buy my supplements separately, halibut liver oil capsules, a calcium/magnesium/B6 mixture (because of my special needs), vitamin E capsules, time-released vitamin C, & more, then mix mine. It does mean I have more pills to swallow than I want to but cheaper & I'd say, more effective. I also don't buy them at a health food store. I've found most times, health food stroes are expensive as compared to large chain grocery & pharmacy stores.

Some vitamins that are synthesized in a lab are different than the natural vitamins. Vitamin E is one. Just like people have been reading that there's a new one-sided form of Celexa coming out & have learned about different isomers of a chemical, so it is with E. The left-handed man-made version is not nearly as effective & has side-effects. The natural right-handed vitamin E is therefor the one I buy. But many other vitamins whether made in a lab or made by a plant are the same form. And if it's identical, I'm not going to pay more to have it extracted from a plant than the much cheaper, but just as effective version that's been synthesized in a lab instead.

One reason I'm leery about gingo biloba is it's blood-thinning properties. Yes, it should be stopped before elective surgery but many people don't even think about it when needing a tooth pulled. And unless, a person has medically "thick" blood, we never know when we could have a serious accident & suffer major blood loss from such a herb.

I'm as equally skeptical about any claims I read from drug companies, new research, news bulletins, & health food claims. I like to investigate myself, reading all the pros & cons, & by holding it up to known tried & true science.

Remember the big news a few years ago how shark cartilage was such a cure-all for cancers? It became so overblown so fast. All the scientists had reported is that there seemed to be a protective agent in their cartilage that stopped cancer. Soon everyone wanted it & sharks were killed by the hundreds of thousands just for their cartilage, upsetting the balance in sea life. The problem was this compound is too large & complex a molecule to be taken orally. And the flurry over sharks not developing cancer was found to be false anyway. I prefer common sense & caution in all things.

**************************************************************************************************

> Finally…someone with a calmer, more reasonable approach to the subject. I appreciate this.
> Actually, I agree with a lot with what you said.
>
> I think you make a good point about the Gingo Biloba. Gingo Biloba must me stopped some days before elective surgery, due to the blood issue. (True Hope does say, also, to stop this drug some time before elective surgery.)
>
> If I remember correctly, TH’s dosage of GB (per 8 or 16 tablets) is much lower than by those who supplement with GB alone. Sorry, I can’t remember the figures. If anyone is interested, please contact TH.
>
> >. . . it's just that their supplement is VERY expensive & a person could pay FAR, FAR less by just buying their own combination.
>
> Didn’t realize that this passage was your writing, I thought it was stjames.’ I see now that it is your’s. I respond to this paragraph in a post to stjames. Had I read your above statements first, I would have been a lot gentler than I am to stjames.

 

Elizabeth -- either a lame or a brilliant idea :-)

Posted by Augusta on December 21, 2001, at 8:48:59

In reply to psychopharm consultation - NYC or NC, posted by Elizabeth on December 15, 2001, at 12:04:05

Elizabeth,

It just occurred to me -- could you ask Dr. Bob? Who would better know the movers and shakers in the field! And since he is in Chicago . . . .

Yes, I can anticipate the problems with this suggestion but . . . worth a try? (maybe?)

 

Re: Hmmmm....herbal/vitamin chemical use

Posted by Guinnee Pig on December 21, 2001, at 10:33:47

In reply to Re: Hmmmm....herbal/vitamin chemical use » Cam W., posted by jay on December 16, 2001, at 17:54:36

Well, I just visited the site thanks to your bad publicity that will surely get more people to the site rather than less just by mentioning it...Anyway I agree something stinks around there of a potential future lawsuit.
Kristin

 

Re: Hmmmm....herbal/vitamin chemical use » Guinnee Pig

Posted by Cam W. on December 21, 2001, at 18:00:22

In reply to Re: Hmmmm....herbal/vitamin chemical use, posted by Guinnee Pig on December 21, 2001, at 10:33:47

Kristin - Actually, it is the Truehope people (or someone related to them) that log in here as posters, touting this wonderful new product for mental disorders. This last assault was, I believe, at least the 3rd time I have seen them in here. I have been told that they do this on other sites, as well. As well as personally not liking their product, I do not like their methods of advertising. But, what can one do ..... hmmmm ..... what can one do.

- Cam

 

Re: Hmmmm....herbal/vitamin chemical use

Posted by Guinnee Pig on December 22, 2001, at 11:18:57

In reply to Re: Hmmmm....herbal/vitamin chemical use » Guinnee Pig, posted by Cam W. on December 21, 2001, at 18:00:22

Right on Cam...Thanks for giving us all the heads up. I agree with you completely.
Kristin

 

Re: psychopharm consultation - NYC or NC

Posted by shellir on December 22, 2001, at 11:29:07

In reply to psychopharm consultation - NYC or NC, posted by Elizabeth on December 15, 2001, at 12:04:05

> I'm interested in getting a consultation with a psychopharmacologist who's well-known, respected, etc., who might have ideas that could help me (I've tried most conventional AD and augmentations with limited success). I'd prefer a person with a research background (since researchers are usually most likely to know about nontraditional techniques), but that's not an absolute must.
>

Hi Elizabeth. I'm going to ask you some questions later about methadone, but I wanted to tell you the situation in washington, d.c., since I have spent my entire adult life here.

I don't believe there is anyone worth seeing once in washington. It is very very conservative here and I have been searching. I had been with Dr. Suzanne Griffin, the best known psychopharmachologist (actually chevy chase, md) for eight years and when the nardil stopped working, there was nothing that she suggested that I hadn't already known from this board. So I truely feel that a consultation would be a waste of time and money. (I like her very much as a person; she is informed , e.g., goes to all the APA meetings, but anti anti opiates.)

I have a name in d.c. that I am going to see (Dr. Richard Hedeya) but he can't see me for three weeks unless he gets a cancellation. He is a psychiatrist (wholistic) who does many many tests, including thyroid, hormone, etc.). He teaches at Georgetown University, but he is not affiliated with the hospital. Even my conventional last pdoc has a lot of respect for him.

Elizabeth, unfortunately, I don't think he is the kind of pscychiatrist that you see once for a consultation.

I once spent an hour on the phone with Richard Brown, who Mair mentioned that she also spoke with. I liked him very much, and at time he wasn't accepting any patients. What he did with me is go through a list of things to augment nardil with, starting with lamictal. As it turned out, I *did* have the most luck with nardil and lamictal, gained 15lbs of water weight and went off. Second time on, not as successful and I hated hated hated the extra 15lbs--my body felt very uncomfortable.

Is Boston out of the question? I actually had been on the way to Johns Hopkins when I got sidetracked and commmited in d.c., but my guess is that they are also conservative. Have you heard of anyone out of Hopkins?

Right now I am taking very low methadone to survive until I can get back home to d.c. It is,of course, the worst possible time to fall apart.

Sorry, no answers, hope someone comes up with something.

Shelli

 

Re: Hmmmm....herbal/vitamin chemical use

Posted by Annie Z. on December 22, 2001, at 14:03:48

In reply to Re: Hmmmm....herbal/vitamin chemical use » Guinnee Pig, posted by Cam W. on December 21, 2001, at 18:00:22

I am not associated with True Hope at all. Again, you make statements with nothing to back them up. Please stop your slander.

> Kristin - Actually, it is the Truehope people (or someone related to them) that log in here as posters, touting this wonderful new product for mental disorders. This last assault was, I believe, at least the 3rd time I have seen them in here. I have been told that they do this on other sites, as well. As well as personally not liking their product, I do not like their methods of advertising. But, what can one do ..... hmmmm ..... what can one do.
>
> - Cam

 

Re: psychopharm consultation - NYC or NC » Bill L

Posted by shellir on December 22, 2001, at 16:39:29

In reply to Re: psychopharm consultation - NYC or NC, posted by Bill L on December 17, 2001, at 9:46:09

But if you really want to go out of state, and you want to go the orthomolecular route, you could call Dr. Robert Hedaya who is a clinician and a psychiatry professor at Georgetown University. . He has a website. You can start with http://www.wholepsych.com/HedayaBio.html and then go to his home page from there. I read his book a few years a go and he specializes in hard to treat cases. BUT, if you get the full battery of tests on your blood, saliva, hair, etc. it costs a few thousand dollars for the tests including the consultations.
>
> According to his book, he usually does NOT replace traditional prescription antidepressants. His treatment only helps to augment your treatment.

This is so incredible that I am just reading this. I am staying with my parents in philadelphia but live in washington, d.c. After a major fall after getting off opiates I called my friend who is a clinical psychologist in d.c. and she absolutely unequivically endorced Hedaya. I talked to him last night, and they are trying to get me in before his next openning in three weeks.

So just having stumbled on your post, I feel very encouraged. My friend is very intelligent and very strong in heart, so her recommendation was major and it's nice to see you have also heard of him. And yes, estimated cost is $3000-$7,000 for all the tests plus his time. Are you from D.C. or how did you hear of him?

Shelli

 

Re: Hmmmm....herbal/vitamin chemical use

Posted by Guinnee Pig on December 23, 2001, at 0:05:50

In reply to Re: Hmmmm....herbal/vitamin chemical use, posted by Annie Z. on December 22, 2001, at 14:03:48

I'm beginning to fill with doubt that anyone is honest in here. Please -- to those who are full of it, please don't ruin it for those of us that seek at least a little truth on this site. Find another place to play.

 

Re: Hmmmm....herbal/vitamin chemical use » Annie Z.

Posted by jay on December 23, 2001, at 1:51:46

In reply to Re: Hmmmm....herbal/vitamin chemical use, posted by Annie Z. on December 22, 2001, at 14:03:48

Annie:

The bottom line is, "True Hope" promote the idea of dumping medication use in favour of this vitamin/mineral/herbal combination. They talk explicitly on their website about the process. A landmark legal precedent was set when Thomas Szaz told one of his patients to stop his medications, and the guy ended up hanging himself with battery cables. Szaz was found guilty of a number of charges, including incompetence, failure to provide necessary medical treatment, and numerous other charges.

If you are truly interested in the value of dietary supplements, I would encourage you *not* to be spreading the word of "True Hope" (who really offer nothing unique. you can get this stuff in any health food store.), and post about the general benefits, using scientific studies, on any of the ingredients in the supplements.

As you have read, many on here are quite open-minded to using supplements in their diets. Sometimes, they do provide help as a compliment to the medications we are taking.

Jay


> I am not associated with True Hope at all. Again, you make statements with nothing to back them up. Please stop your slander.
>
> > Kristin - Actually, it is the Truehope people (or someone related to them) that log in here as posters, touting this wonderful new product for mental disorders. This last assault was, I believe, at least the 3rd time I have seen them in here. I have been told that they do this on other sites, as well. As well as personally not liking their product, I do not like their methods of advertising. But, what can one do ..... hmmmm ..... what can one do.
> >
> > - Cam

 

Re: please be civil » Cam W., Annie Z.

Posted by Dr. Bob on December 25, 2001, at 9:42:18

In reply to Re: Hmmmm....herbal/vitamin chemical use, posted by Annie Z. on December 22, 2001, at 14:03:48

> > Actually, it is the Truehope people (or someone related to them) that log in here as posters, touting this wonderful new product for mental disorders.

> I am not associated with True Hope at all. Again, you make statements with nothing to back them up. Please stop your slander.

It's fine to have different points of view, but please don't post anything that others could take as accusatory:

http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil

Thanks, and happy holidays,

Bob

PS: Follow-ups regarding civility should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration; otherwise, they may be deleted.

 

Dr. Thomas Szasz found guilty? » jay

Posted by Mitchell on December 28, 2001, at 0:13:50

In reply to Re: Hmmmm....herbal/vitamin chemical use » Annie Z., posted by jay on December 23, 2001, at 1:51:46

> > > A landmark legal precedent was set when Thomas Szaz told one of his patients to stop his medications, and the guy ended up hanging himself with battery cables. Szaz was found guilty of a number of charges, including incompetence, failure to provide necessary medical treatment, and numerous other charges.

Can you please tell me more about the case in which you say Thomas S. Szasz, M.D. was found guilty? I would like to review the case to which you refer. Can you tell me when and in what state this case was tried? If you cannot cite the case, can you direct me to the source where you found information that suggested Dr. Szasz had been found guilty of "incompetence"?

I suppose if there is much discussion of this, it should be redirected to Pscyhosocial, but I wanted to pose the question here, since your reference to legal action against Szasz is posted here.

It would surprise me if, had there been civil or criminal actions against this prominent and controversial professor, I could find no reference to the case on the Internet.

 

Re: Dr. Thomas Szasz found guilty? » Mitchell

Posted by jay on December 28, 2001, at 13:50:14

In reply to Dr. Thomas Szasz found guilty? » jay, posted by Mitchell on December 28, 2001, at 0:13:50

> > > > A landmark legal precedent was set when Thomas Szaz told one of his patients to stop his medications, and the guy ended up hanging himself with battery cables. Szaz was found guilty of a number of charges, including incompetence, failure to provide necessary medical treatment, and numerous other charges.
>
> Can you please tell me more about the case in which you say Thomas S. Szasz, M.D. was found guilty? I would like to review the case to which you refer. Can you tell me when and in what state this case was tried? If you cannot cite the case, can you direct me to the source where you found information that suggested Dr. Szasz had been found guilty of "incompetence"?
>
> I suppose if there is much discussion of this, it should be redirected to Pscyhosocial, but I wanted to pose the question here, since your reference to legal action against Szasz is posted here.
>
> It would surprise me if, had there been civil or criminal actions against this prominent and controversial professor, I could find no reference to the case on the Internet.


Hi:

It is documented in Kay Redfield Jamison's book "Night Falls Fast". 1994, State of New York Vs. Thomas Szaz. The court ruled Szaz had to pay $650,000 to the widow of one of his patients he told to stop taking his lithium, who then commited suicide with battery cables a few months later. Szaz also "failed to render psychiatric medical care and treatment in conformity with customary and accepted sound standards of medical care."...and numerous other similar charges. It was also the American Psychiatric Association's insurance that paid his charge, and as much as he hated the organization, he belonged to it.

The case trial number, and all, are in
Redfield's book. Why would you even think of questioning that this guy could be found guilty of negligence is way beyond me.

Jay

 

Re: psychopharm consultation - NYC or NC » OldSchool

Posted by Elizabeth on December 28, 2001, at 14:51:35

In reply to Re: psychopharm consultation - NYC or NC, posted by OldSchool on December 19, 2001, at 10:04:55

Hi, "OldSchool." I believe I recognize you from your writing style and some things you've said. Nice to chat with you again.

I used to have a really good pdoc in W-S, but she's not taking new patients right now. Dr. Mattox seems like he might be a good choice. I wonder if he would be willing to try stuff like amantadine, pramipexole, vigabatrin, amisulpride, etc. that I think might have potential.

I tried getting in touch with Duke and I agree with you about them -- although there may be some research types there who are willing to try anything vaguely exotic, their outpatient clinic is definitely not the place to go if you haven't had adequate success from conventional treatments. My problem is that although regular ADs like Parnate and desipramine improve my mood, the anergia and anhedonia aren't as easy to get rid of.

My doctor in NJ recommended some people at Chapel Hill who might be willing to see me for a consultation. I'm hoping that if I can't find a really good psychiatrist here to see regularly, I can at least see someone good once for a consultation and that person can make some recommendations that my regular pdoc will be willing to listen to.

Unfortunately, a lot of pdocs who are very arrogant seem to be well respected around here. The outpatient clinic at Baptist is much like what you describe experiencing at Duke.

BTW: I haven't been diagnosed with epilepsy because none of the tests confirm that the episodes I've been having (which are very infrequent so I haven't been able to have an EEG while I was having one) are seizures. I think the neurology department at Baptist is supposed to be pretty good (certainly better than the psych department!) and hopefully I will be able to get some help there. Trileptal is a pretty good, side effect free anticonvulsant; the only problem I have with it is that it's so expensive.

-elizabeth

 

Redirect: Dr. Thomas Szasz found guilty?

Posted by Dr. Bob on December 28, 2001, at 16:10:31

In reply to Re: Dr. Thomas Szasz found guilty? » Mitchell, posted by jay on December 28, 2001, at 13:50:14

> > I suppose if there is much discussion of this, it should be redirected to Pscyhosocial...

Yes, please, thanks.

Bob


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