![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 22 to 46 of 83. Go back in thread:
Posted by Elizabeth on December 17, 2001, at 23:47:23
In reply to Re: psychopharm consultation -Mclean » Elizabeth, posted by Chloe on December 17, 2001, at 20:20:28
Chloe,
I don't know any of those people. But John Gunderson, who is a specialist in BPD, is at McLean, and I imagine he would be able to see you for a consultation or refer you to someone who'd be good to see if what you're interested in specifically is psychopharm issues relating to BPD (I don't think he's very psychopharm-oriented himself).
As for the cost, psych consults are expensive. I would expect to pay about the same at Columbia or Chicago.
So, you can't tolerate *any* mood stabilizers? There are so many of them, that's surprising. Which ones have you tried?
-elizabeth
Posted by Chloe on December 18, 2001, at 19:07:15
In reply to Re: psychopharm consultation -Mclean » Chloe, posted by Elizabeth on December 17, 2001, at 23:47:23
> > I don't know any of those people. But John Gunderson, who is a specialist in BPD, is at McLean, and I imagine he would be able to see you for a consultation or refer you to someone who'd be good to see if what you're interested in specifically is psychopharm issues relating to BPD (I don't think he's very psychopharm-oriented himself).
Elizabeth,
I am all too familar with the illustrious Dr. Gunderson. And no, he is not med oriented. His treatment approach is to see how enraged he can get a patient. An out of control angry patient is progress to him. Unfortunately, I know first hand. He was my evaluator at a treatment conference when I was a patient at Mclean when it was in it's hayday many many years ago. He was extremely rude, unkind and not a patient advocate. It's amazing that he is working with BPD's.Anyway, Mclean is just a shell of what it was once was. The rolling hills and gorgeous brick buildings on the campus are mostly over grown and vacant. My unit is long closed and boarded up. Most buildings are converted to halfway and quarterway houses. No one has insurance to pay for long term impatient care anymore...Including me, anymore! I digress. I have no ties to Mclean anymore. So I am just getting referals from my therapist who is just making cold inquiries.
>
> > As for the cost, psych consults are expensive. I would expect to pay about the same at Columbia or Chicago.I canceled my appointment for tomorrow. I can't pay $250 dollars for one session. Since I know even the smartest guy could put back on track after just one session. I have never beeen a quick fix. I need someone who can take insurance.
>
> > So, you can't tolerate *any* mood stabilizers? There are so many of them, that's surprising. Which ones have you tried?I am very med sensitive. I only need small doses of things, since I am a small person, about #105.
I am tolerating a small amount of neurontin ok. But if I go above 400 mgs, I get increased scalp pain which is very uncomfortable. BUT this amount is doing nothing to help with my cylcing!
Tegretol (AC)-heartburn, constipation, bad taste, headache, unsteadiness, fluish, blah, unhappy
Trileptal (AC)-dry painful, burning skin/scalp, photosensitivity reaction, interrupted sleep
Topomax (AC)-eczema, painful skin and hair, extreme anxiety and angst
Lamictal (AC)-headache, insomnia, edginess, activation, actinic rash
Neurontin (AC)-pleasant tiredness, transient heartburn, mild dry skin, scalp pain over 400 mgs.
Depakote (AC)-hair loss, blah feeling, wierd dreams-This one is probably the most benign of the group, except for the hair thing of course :(
Lithium- great AD and stablization response. But, I get an INTENSE burning scalp and dry hair aftere a few weeks. The pain becomes so sharp it hurts to lie on a pillow. Even at just 300 mgs.
This is probably more information than you wanted! But I am very revved at the moment. Oh, and does Klonopin have any mood stab. qualities? I have never tried that. my pdoc is a real adovocate of valium for some reason...I take about 10 mgs a day. I wonder if K would be more stabilizing???
Thanks for listening. Any thoughts?
Chloe
Posted by Cam W. on December 18, 2001, at 23:37:25
In reply to Hmmmm...., posted by Cam W. on December 16, 2001, at 1:38:02
Re: truehope
I was surfing some of my bookmarked sites out of sheer boredom and came across this. I thought that it was rather interesting:
http://www.healthwatcher.net/Quackerywatch/Synergy/index.html
Anyone got any comments? James, I'd like your opinion (seems like someone is doing their homework).
- Cam
Posted by Annie Z. on December 19, 2001, at 7:17:42
In reply to Hmmmm...., posted by Cam W. on December 16, 2001, at 1:38:02
>I have to wonder about a company who tests there product "after" they market it. That seems a little bass-ackwards from the way the science is supposed to be done. Where are the phase trials?There are countless studies being conducted on prescription drugs and products after they have been marketed, also. Furthermore, many prescription drugs have not had phase trials done on them either; for example, all of the products that were on the market before the phase trials were required – aspirin, for instance. Also, I believe that generic drugs, which are not exactly the same as the original, do not have phase trials done on them.
As I am sure you are aware, the supplement companies do not do phase trials of their supplements, before or after they put them on the market, because of the hundreds of millions of dollars it takes to fund these trials. Supplement companies do look at the usually abundant existing evidence for the effectiveness and non-toxicity of their products, as well as the risks that these products may pose. That’s why many supplement companies offer some excellent products that greatly ease people’s pain and suffering, and that greatly extend and enhance peoples’ lives. However, there is no question that supplement companies product can also be ineffective, as well as harmful or deadly products to some.
Prescription drug company’s medications, also, offer excellent products that have eased and extended the lives of millions. However, prescription medication has also caused great harm and countless deaths in this country. Several years ago, the American Medical Association published in their Journal of the American Medical Association, a study, the largest and most complete of its kind, which shows that more than 2 million Americans become seriously ill every year because of toxic reactions to correctly prescribed medicines taken properly, and 106,000 die from those reactions. That surprisingly high number makes prescription drug side effects at least the sixth, and perhaps even the fourth, most common cause of death in this country.
Lastly, many doctors and health professionals offer advice and services which helpful and life saving -- or ineffective, harmful and deadly. Physician and health-care mistakes are one of the major causes of death in this country -- ranks up there with the most common causes of peoples’ death, also.
I see the supplement industry in the same way I see the rest of the health industry: it can be good or bad, effective or ineffective, dangerous or benign. I wholeheartedly believe that a health consumer should closely examine any health service or product he chooses. After all, you are (usually) the only one that will suffer or die, if you make the wrong choices.
>"Oh, it's only vitamins." Whew, that's a relief, for a minute there I thought it was a medication, silly me.
I, for one, never said, “It’s only vitamins.” As I mentioned above, I happen to believe that vitamins or supplements can be as benign or dangerous as any drug. I suggest that people do research on the supplement company and on the supplements’ ingredients, and talk to their doctor before using this product.
>I have heard so many stories about these guys, I am not sure what to believe, anymore. The wording of a lot of the sentences in their J Clin Psychiatry article, make them sound like they are hiding something (even more so than some the usual drug company party lines that must be waded through and dissected).
You don’t support your contention that “they are hiding something” at all. You give no examples. It’s just a feeling (prejudice) that you have with the limited knowledge of your subject.
> I would like to hear Stahl's take on this article; how'd it get past him? I don't get it?
I don’t know what are you talking about here.
>Also, did anyone else notice that the guy who wrote the editorial, supposedly being critical of the article, was thanked by the research group for his, "support and consultation".
Doesn’t sound suspicious to me at all. Just sounds like the research group is open minded. I would thank anyone for his or her “support and consultation” who offered legitimate, thoughtful criticism of me or my work. Afterall, dealing with critiicsm is a major way people may improve.
>Something that I am also curious about (but I usually am with any journal artical) is the time lag between first submission of the article to the journal, it's initial rejection, and finally it's acceptance. I would really like to know what was wrong with that first submission. Was it too many typos; was it unbackable statements; what?
You provide no evidence at all for any lag time. Where are your dates? Where are your sources? Also, shouldn’t you at least model the behavior of which you accuse others? Your whole post consists of unbackable statements, and yet you are complaining about unbackable statements that may or may not have been in the first draft of an article that was never published. You spelled the word “article” wrong in the above paragraph, and you who used the word there for their at least twice in your post, just to name a few of your writing errors; and then you complain about typos in an unpublished first draft for which there is no evidence of even existing!
Finally, even if you did have evidence of a lag time, you haven’t convinced me that a lag time means there is something wrong with the final quality of the article.
>I hope these guys (ie. Synergy) have deep pockets. The way that they are bringing there product out smells of lawsuit (the kind that professional, falling-off-a-trolley-experts bring against a company). If one person starts this vitamin, has a manic episode, and does harm to themselves (or others), what sort of defense does the company have? This scenario could be compounded by the person also stopping his/her meds for their bipolar disorder. If there is a waiver that needs to be signed to use this product, I would be extremely leery about signing it.
Well, I hope that the prescription drug companies have deep pockets, too, (and they do), because it happens all the time that someone switches psychiatric medication, has a manic episode, and does harm to himself or others.
For your infomation, a signed waiver is not required to use the product. Certainly, there are very real risks involved in using this product, as there are in using many drugs or supplements. This non-profit organization cautions you about the risks and tries to minimize them.. The organization gives you pamphlet of a lot of important information, which you should share with your doctor, before you take the product. Also, assistants from the organization call you every week to offer you support and to answer your questions. You may even call these assistants yourself at any time.
>--Cam (who has a very uneasy feeling about this whole thing, but has no proof to refute their claims, other than common sense, and a few observations).
I certainly agree with you that you have no proof to refute their claims. However, I don’t see common sense operating here. By writing a post like this that contains no evidence to support any of your contentions, you are just spewing unexamined propaganda. You are doing a large disservice to the readers of this thread. You are modeling a behavior that is very inappropriate of a health professional, and you are leading people away from a supplement that could potentially make the quality of their life a great deal better, using nothing but emotion, prejudice, and unproved assertions.
--Annie Z.
Posted by Annie Z. on December 19, 2001, at 7:25:43
In reply to Double Hmmmm...., posted by Cam W. on December 18, 2001, at 23:37:25
> Re: truehope
>
> I was surfing some of my bookmarked sites out of sheer boredom and came across this. I thought that it was rather interesting:
>
> http://www.healthwatcher.net/Quackerywatch/Synergy/index.html
>
> Anyone got any comments? James, I'd like your opinion (seems like someone is doing their homework).
>
> - CamI sure the same or worse can be said about the drug companies and their doctors. Does this prove that the supplement doesn't work for a lot of people? I don't think so.
Posted by Cam W. on December 19, 2001, at 8:06:00
In reply to Re: Double Hmmmm...., posted by Annie Z. on December 19, 2001, at 7:25:43
> > Re: truehope
> >
> > I was surfing some of my bookmarked sites out of sheer boredom and came across this. I thought that it was rather interesting:
> >
> > http://www.healthwatcher.net/Quackerywatch/Synergy/index.html
> >
> > Anyone got any comments? James, I'd like your opinion (seems like someone is doing their homework).
> >
> > - Cam
>
> I sure the same or worse can be said about the drug companies and their doctors. Does this prove that the supplement doesn't work for a lot of people? I don't think so.
Annie .......and does it prove that it does works? I don't think so. It is not for me to refute claims. To quote Carl Sagan, "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." All I ask for is some "possible" or "potentially valid" mechanism of action for how this drug combination works.Doesn't it TERRIFY you, that if some UNPROVEN combination of CHEMICALS (and vitamins and minerals are chemicals) TO CHILDREN, when it has such a PROFOUND ACTION ON MOOD (similar to, or better than, the most potent mood stabilizers - which are inherently toxic), when NO one has any IDEA OF HOW IT WORKS? Would you give your child an new combination of say, Neurontin + lithium + Zyprexa + Laetril, because someone said that it would CURE them? I don't think so.
BTW, I can produce at least four people who paid hundreds of dollars a month for a couple of bucks worth of vitamins and minerals to some group who claims to be doing this "non-profit". Also, none of these four people was seemingly helped by the medication, and although none came off of their regular medication, one still had a manic episode.
You ask for proof, when it is you who should be providing the proof. THAT is how science works.
Sanely Yours - Cam
Posted by Mitch on December 19, 2001, at 9:40:03
In reply to Re: Double Hmmmm.... » Annie Z., posted by Cam W. on December 19, 2001, at 8:06:00
> BTW, I can produce at least four people who paid hundreds of dollars a month for a couple of bucks worth of vitamins and minerals to some group who claims to be doing this "non-profit". Also, none of these four people was seemingly helped by the medication, and although none came off of their regular medication, one still had a manic episode.
I knew someone (my brother-in-law's father) who is confirmed Bipolar I (now!) who put his family through all sorts of misery (being undiagnosed/untreated). Well, his wife believed in astrology and thought he just had personality changes and paid astrologer's to attempt to forecast when he would "switch". (I am recalling all of this when I was a teenager). They started to get some clues that it was maybe a "mood" problem brought on by a nutritional deficit of sorts. They sought out a nutritional specialist and paid him a LOT of money to come to the conclusion that he needed "nutritional lithium"! Well, there was just a tiny amount of lithium in the tablets he was taking and needless to say, he continued to "switch personalities". I told them about 20 years ago he needed to see a shrink. They finally saw one about 15 years ago (when he lied to get loans and they almost got busted by the feds and went bankrupt)-they put him on 900mg/day of lithium and his personality "switches" magically disappeared. The doctor asked him if he wanted to reduce the lithium afer he had been on it for several months and he didn't want to! HMMMM.Mitch
Posted by OldSchool on December 19, 2001, at 10:04:55
In reply to psychopharm consultation - NYC or NC, posted by Elizabeth on December 15, 2001, at 12:04:05
> I'm interested in getting a consultation with a psychopharmacologist who's well-known, respected, etc., who might have ideas that could help me (I've tried most conventional AD and augmentations with limited success). I'd prefer a person with a research background (since researchers are usually most likely to know about nontraditional techniques), but that's not an absolute must.
>
> Does anyone know of any such people? I'm currently in NC and would be willing to travel within the state; I could also see someone in NYC or DC without much difficulty since I have relatives in both places.
>
> This would be a one-time thing; the idea is to get some recommendations from someone who's well-known and well-respected to help me convince whatever doctor around here I end up seeing to try stuff that they wouldn't be willing to try otherwise.
>
> Thanks!
>
> -elizabeth
Hi Elizabeth, as you already know you are located in a cesspool area as far as psychiatry goes. However there are a few decent options available to you in your area. There is a good psychopharmacologist right in your hometown of Winston Salem by the name of James D. Mattox. He has a reputation as an excellent and aggressive psychopharmacologist. He referred one of his patients to NIMH a year or so back...pretty impressive for a psychiatrist to do that. He is a psychiatrist at "New Directions Treatment Center" in Winston Salem. He is probably your best bet in the Triad area as far as aggressive and creative psychopharmacology goes.As far as Duke goes, Ive used Duke psychiatry and quite honestly, Duke is highly overrated. Duke psychiatry is a stodgy and very conservative place. There are a few good doctors there, but many of them are very stodgy and insolent. The best psychopharmacology guy there is someone named John Beyer, Dr. Beyer is head of the Duke mood disorders clinic. He is an excellent psychopharmacologist and also a nice guy. Another guy at Duke who Ive heard is good is someone named Gaddhi. He is a research oriented psychiatrist who used to work at NIMH with Dr. Mark George. However Gaddhi is focused mostly on research and doesnt take many patients. However you never know you might be able to get in with him if you called him directly. Dont try to hook up with Gaddhi thru the TRIAGE nurse at Duke, call Gaddhi's office yourself. You might click with him as he is research oriented.
One person at Duke I would recommend you not using is Susan Van Meter. She is head of the Duke mood disorders clinic. She doesnt exactly have the best personality in the world, I dont know how she ever got that position at Duke to begin with. I dont recommend her as she doesnt exactly have the best personality in the world. I found her to be very impersonal and kind of remote...cold acting.
Probably the best thing about Duke psychiatry is the Duke ECT unit run by Dr. Richard Weiner, its an excellent ECT unit if you are considering having that. Duke does have an excellent ECT unit, I will give Duke that. In fact thats probably the best thing about the Duke psychiatry program is its ECT program...its good.
Probably the best research oriented psychiatry outfit in the Carolinas is down at the Medical University of South Carolina in Charleston. There are some outstanding research psychiatrists at MUSC. I found MUSC to be very much superior to Duke psychiatry. Dr. Mark George is there and he does a lot of really cool, unique neuropsychiatry research that is as good as any you'd find up in Boston or NYC. There is also a guy at MUSC named Zihad Nahas, he is George's assistant and Nahas is not a bad psychopharmacologist. Nahas has a good personality, he is friendly and knows his psychopharmacology. Nahas is openminded. James Ballenger was head of MUSC psychiatry until recently, he left I dont know where he went.
Since much of the research at MUSC is Neuropsychiatry related, it might be a good place to go since you have been diagnosed with epilepsy recently. Perhaps Dr. George and the like at MUSC could tie things together with your seizure problems and your depression.
Good luck,
Old School
Posted by OldSchool on December 19, 2001, at 10:08:10
In reply to Re: psychopharm consultation - NYC or NC, posted by OldSchool on December 19, 2001, at 10:04:55
Correction: John Beyer at DUMC is head of the Duke Anxiety disorders clinic, not the Duke mood disorders clinic. Beyer is an excellent psychopharmacologist.
Old School
Posted by stjames on December 19, 2001, at 10:18:15
In reply to Double Hmmmm...., posted by Cam W. on December 18, 2001, at 23:37:25
> Anyone got any comments? James, I'd like your opinion (seems like someone is doing their homework).
>
> - CamA fool and his money are easily parted.
Posted by Annie Z. on December 19, 2001, at 11:48:27
In reply to Re: Hmmmm....vitamin chemical use - some facts, posted by IsoM on December 17, 2001, at 0:45:05
> I did some checking about their supplement & found it's a multi-vitamin & mineral supplement.
Actually the supplement contain more than multi-vitamins and minerals. The supplement contains dl-phenylalanine, glutamine, citrus bioflavonoids, grape seed, choline, inositol, ginkgo biloba, methionine, organic germanium, as well.
What I'd like to know is why "their" supplement will make someone so much better but the competitor's supplement doesn't? Just a bunch of hype.
How and where are they hyping their product, saying it is better than the competitors?
> I also like the little disclaimer that's put on at the end:
> "These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease."This statement is required by the FDA to be put on all nutritional supplements. The last sentence of the statement doesn’t seem to make sense, since the supplement company claims that their supplement will help cure mental illness throughout their website. Sounds to me like the FDA is trying to abridge the supplement companies’ right to free speech.
> A person using this supplements supposed to take 16 tablets a day at a cost of $68.98 a bottle! And it doesn't even let you know how many tablets in a bottle. Cheap? I hardly think so.
For about $68.98 you get 448 supplements. If you take 16 pills per day, that would last you about a month. I take 32 pills per day, costing me about $140 per month. However, the cost for the amount of medications which I gave up, and which didn’t do nearly as much for me as the supplement, is over $200.
Posted by IsoM on December 19, 2001, at 13:11:13
In reply to Re: Hmmmm....vitamin chemical use - some facts » IsoM, posted by Annie Z. on December 19, 2001, at 11:48:27
Annie, I know there are extras added to the vitamin/mineral combination - I just wonder how much is added. It would be good if they stated the amounts too. I've probably given you the impression that I'm against supplementing your diet with other nutrients. I'm definitely not! I used to manage a health food store for a number of years before it changed hands, plus have a good background in biology & some chemistry from university courses & a lot of science journal reading.
In working in the health food environment, I learned how much hype there sometimes is. It's a mult-billion dollar industry itself & wouldn't flourish if hype & advertising wasn't done. Some of the information being presented is factual about health foods & supplements but much is "hearsay". Many individuals presenting the information are not properly trained in nutrition (standard or otherwise) or biochemsitry & tend to rely on a lot of New Age fluff. It's exactly because of all this fluff, that many sensible people are scared away from taking the good information seriously.
I honestly believe that while many psychotropic medications may get the brain's chemistry working again (I compare it to a defibullator for the heart - only an illustration, not how drugs actually work), something more is needed to keep the brain working properly.
Without the proper nutrients, our body cannot optimumly make the precursors & neurotransmitters needed for healthy brain activity. Now that I'm older, I don't have the mega-appetite that I used to when young & KNOW that I can't possibly get all the nutrients I need through my diet only. I supplement. But I prefer rather than all-in-one combination to buy the supplements individually & balance them myself. I won't use gingo biloba as I don't want my blood to clot less. Whenever I've been checked in the hospital, my blood's always been at the 100% oxygenated level besides. I've eaten carefully & well & taken supplements for over 30 years & the benefits show. I don't get ill - no colds or such, but despite all this, I HAVE needed medication for depression - it has a strong hereditary streak in my family & I had a very stressful marriage with an alcoholic husband.
It's not that True Hope's supplements are bad (except if I remember right, their potassium is quite low) or that psych meds don't cost lots, it's just that their supplement is VERY expensive & a person could pay FAR, FAR less by just buying their own combination. This company is making a lot of money (yes, I know drug companies are raking it in too but they also have to fund their own research - True Hope doesn't) & they're making *overblown* statements about the benefits. THAT'S what bothers me so much - not that supplementing your diet with extra nutrients is wrong. I think it's a very good idea for everyone.
****************************************************************************************************
> > I did some checking about their supplement & found it's a multi-vitamin & mineral supplement.
>
> Actually the supplement contain more than multi-vitamins and minerals. The supplement contains dl-phenylalanine, glutamine, citrus bioflavonoids, grape seed, choline, inositol, ginkgo biloba, methionine, organic germanium, as well.
>
> What I'd like to know is why "their" supplement will make someone so much better but the competitor's supplement doesn't? Just a bunch of hype.
>
> How and where are they hyping their product, saying it is better than the competitors?
>
> > I also like the little disclaimer that's put on at the end:
> > "These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease."
>
> This statement is required by the FDA to be put on all nutritional supplements. The last sentence of the statement doesn’t seem to make sense, since the supplement company claims that their supplement will help cure mental illness throughout their website. Sounds to me like the FDA is trying to abridge the supplement companies’ right to free speech.
>
> > A person using this supplements supposed to take 16 tablets a day at a cost of $68.98 a bottle! And it doesn't even let you know how many tablets in a bottle. Cheap? I hardly think so.
>
> For about $68.98 you get 448 supplements. If you take 16 pills per day, that would last you about a month. I take 32 pills per day, costing me about $140 per month. However, the cost for the amount of medications which I gave up, and which didn’t do nearly as much for me as the supplement, is over $200.
Posted by susan C on December 19, 2001, at 13:53:24
In reply to Re: Double Hmmmm...., posted by stjames on December 19, 2001, at 10:18:15
> > Anyone got any comments? James, I'd like your opinion (seems like someone is doing their homework).
> >
> > - Cam
>
> A fool and his money are easily parted.A sucker is born every minute
mouse on a ferris wheel
Posted by stjames on December 19, 2001, at 14:11:51
In reply to About the Supplement » Annie Z., posted by IsoM on December 19, 2001, at 13:11:13
It's not that True Hope's supplements are bad (except if I remember right, their potassium is quite low) or that psych meds don't cost lots, it's just that their supplement is VERY expensive & a person could pay FAR, FAR less by just buying their own combination. This company is making a lot of money (yes, I know drug companies are raking it in too but they also have to fund their own research - True Hope doesn't) & they're making *overblown* statements about the benefits. THAT'S what bothers me so much - not that supplementing your diet with extra nutrients is wrong. I think it's a very good idea for everyone.
James here.....
Yes ! I am not saying it is foolish to supplement, it is just foolish to pay excessive
prices for common nutrients.james
Posted by Annie Z. on December 19, 2001, at 16:26:37
In reply to Re: About the Supplement, posted by stjames on December 19, 2001, at 14:11:51
> It's not that True Hope's supplements are bad (except if I remember right, their potassium is quite low) or that psych meds don't cost lots, it's just that their supplement is VERY expensive & a person could pay FAR, FAR less by just buying their own combination.
Where is your evidence for your accusations that you make above?Here is some evidence that seems to prove you wrong:
True Hope’s Supplement
68.98 per bottle divided by 448 supplements = 6.5 cents per tablet
Life Extension Mix
$89 divided by 519 supplements = 17 cents per tablet
GNC Multi Ultra Without Iron, Timed Release Tablets
$24.99 divided by 90 = 26 cents per tablet
Geritol: Complete Multi-Vitamin Mineral Supplement, Tablets
$9.99 divided by 100 = 10 cents per tablet
Centrum Multivitamin/Multimineral with Lutein, Buy 100 Get 30 Free, Tablets
$9.99 divided by 130 = 7.6 cents per tablet
Doesn’t seem like it is fair of you to make accusations like you did above without doing any homework and offering no evidence on the subject. I think it would be fair to say though that this post does expose a pre-existing prejudice that you have against the supplement.
Posted by stjames on December 19, 2001, at 17:17:51
In reply to Re: About the Supplement » stjames, posted by Annie Z. on December 19, 2001, at 16:26:37
I think you are clueless. Dosage, honey, not pills !
Posted by stjames on December 19, 2001, at 17:30:27
In reply to Re: About the Supplement, posted by stjames on December 19, 2001, at 17:17:51
From the archives:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20010530/msgs/65133.html
I have spent a little time evaluating what appeared to me to be a rather hight cost for E.M.POWER+
as quoted by the Synergy Group of Canada for their supplement: basically US $150.00/month.
The results I what I find: purchasing the equivalent would probably cost your abour $40.00/monthThe E.M.POWER+ Ingredient List contains (1) Vitamins (2) Minerals (3) "Proprietary Blend"
(1) The Vitamin daily dosage (32 pills), when compared to a widely available commercial product (Theragran-M, by Bristol-Myers) works out to almost exactly 4 times the amount in each of the "Theragran" tablets.
(2) The Mineral daily dosages are mostly substantially higher than the "Theragran" product (including Theragran's "Vitamin/Mineral" supplement)
(3) The non-mineral "proprietary blend" (Ginko, Grape Seed, etc.) dosages are not stated on their web site, but I have been told by a research pharmacologist who has seen the data that the dosage level is so low as to be "negligible". I would state this Dr.'s name, but I have not asked his permission to quote this.Cost evaluation:
(1) The equivalent vitamins purchased as "Theragran" would cost approximately $6.00 to $8.00/month.
This is computed: (30 days * 4 capsules * $.06/capsule)(2) The minerals, as priced from Web sources, would cost approx $20.00 month
This is based on sample prices for "Mega Multi Mineral formula" from Solaray.
This is computed: (30 days * 8 capsules * $.08/capsule)
Please note that the following minerals in both "Truehope" and "Solaray's" products include the AMINO ACID CHELATED form of the mineral: Calcium, Iron, Manganese, Chromium, Molybdenum, Boron, Vanadiuim, and Nickel.
As chelated forms of the minerals, they appear to be more expensive than those minerals found in "standard" vitamin/mineral supplements.(3) As the information I have been given about the Ginko, etc. is that the dosage levels are very low, I can only state that the cost must also be pretty low....
So, the "equivalent" cost"
..Theragran vitamins (or equiv).........$ 8.00
..Minerals (chelelated)......................$20.00
..Ginko, extra Vit B12/C etc.(estimate!)$12.00
Estimated Probable total............ $40.00/monthPills per day
....The Truehope formula requires 32 capsules/day
....An "equivalent" works out to about 20 or so pills/day
........(4 regular vitamin pills)
........(8 mineral pills)
........(4 "extra" vitamin pills: C,B12, etc.)
........("x" "herbal supplement pills)When I confronted a "Truehope" representative about the comparatively hight cost of their product, they advised me that their's had a very high "bio-availabilty" rating. However, no one has been able to give me any evidence of either direct or comparative measurement of that!
NOTE: I AM NOT RECOMMENDING TAKING THIS MUCH "STUFF". PARTICULARYLY SOME MINERAL DOSES IN HIGH LEVELS HAVE BEEN REPORTED TO CAUSE PROBLEMS, AS WELL AS VITAMIN A IN DOSES THIS HIGH
FURTHERMORE, IF ONE'S LIVER OR KIDNEY FUNCTION IS IMPARIED, HIGH DOSES MAY (I UNDERSTAND) CAUSE PROBLEMS.NOR AM I RECOMMENDING ANY BRAND OF VITAMIN OR MINERAL SUPPLIER! THOSE NAMES PROVIDED ARE FOR REFERENCE ONLY, SHOULD YOU CARE TO VALIDATE MY INFORMATION.
Posted by Annie Z. on December 19, 2001, at 17:33:18
In reply to About the Supplement » Annie Z., posted by IsoM on December 19, 2001, at 13:11:13
Finally…someone with a calmer, more reasonable approach to the subject. I appreciate this.
Actually, I agree with a lot with what you said.I think you make a good point about the Gingo Biloba. Gingo Biloba must me stopped some days before elective surgery, due to the blood issue. (True Hope does say, also, to stop this drug some time before elective surgery.)
If I remember correctly, TH’s dosage of GB (per 8 or 16 tablets) is much lower than by those who supplement with GB alone. Sorry, I can’t remember the figures. If anyone is interested, please contact TH.
>. . . it's just that their supplement is VERY expensive & a person could pay FAR, FAR less by just buying their own combination.
Didn’t realize that this passage was your writing, I thought it was stjames.’ I see now that it is your’s. I respond to this paragraph in a post to stjames. Had I read your above statements first, I would have been a lot gentler than I am to stjames.
Posted by IsoM on December 19, 2001, at 18:07:28
In reply to Re: About the Supplement » IsoM, posted by Annie Z. on December 19, 2001, at 17:33:18
Annie, a lot of people have no idea of what kind of nutrients we need or how much, or the difference between minimum daily requirements, recommended daily requirements, & special requirements due to illness, heredity, or stresses, both physical or mental. But seeing how eager people are to do it right, it's not that difficult to learn & educate themselves correctly.
I buy my supplements separately, halibut liver oil capsules, a calcium/magnesium/B6 mixture (because of my special needs), vitamin E capsules, time-released vitamin C, & more, then mix mine. It does mean I have more pills to swallow than I want to but cheaper & I'd say, more effective. I also don't buy them at a health food store. I've found most times, health food stroes are expensive as compared to large chain grocery & pharmacy stores.
Some vitamins that are synthesized in a lab are different than the natural vitamins. Vitamin E is one. Just like people have been reading that there's a new one-sided form of Celexa coming out & have learned about different isomers of a chemical, so it is with E. The left-handed man-made version is not nearly as effective & has side-effects. The natural right-handed vitamin E is therefor the one I buy. But many other vitamins whether made in a lab or made by a plant are the same form. And if it's identical, I'm not going to pay more to have it extracted from a plant than the much cheaper, but just as effective version that's been synthesized in a lab instead.
One reason I'm leery about gingo biloba is it's blood-thinning properties. Yes, it should be stopped before elective surgery but many people don't even think about it when needing a tooth pulled. And unless, a person has medically "thick" blood, we never know when we could have a serious accident & suffer major blood loss from such a herb.
I'm as equally skeptical about any claims I read from drug companies, new research, news bulletins, & health food claims. I like to investigate myself, reading all the pros & cons, & by holding it up to known tried & true science.
Remember the big news a few years ago how shark cartilage was such a cure-all for cancers? It became so overblown so fast. All the scientists had reported is that there seemed to be a protective agent in their cartilage that stopped cancer. Soon everyone wanted it & sharks were killed by the hundreds of thousands just for their cartilage, upsetting the balance in sea life. The problem was this compound is too large & complex a molecule to be taken orally. And the flurry over sharks not developing cancer was found to be false anyway. I prefer common sense & caution in all things.
**************************************************************************************************
> Finally…someone with a calmer, more reasonable approach to the subject. I appreciate this.
> Actually, I agree with a lot with what you said.
>
> I think you make a good point about the Gingo Biloba. Gingo Biloba must me stopped some days before elective surgery, due to the blood issue. (True Hope does say, also, to stop this drug some time before elective surgery.)
>
> If I remember correctly, TH’s dosage of GB (per 8 or 16 tablets) is much lower than by those who supplement with GB alone. Sorry, I can’t remember the figures. If anyone is interested, please contact TH.
>
> >. . . it's just that their supplement is VERY expensive & a person could pay FAR, FAR less by just buying their own combination.
>
> Didn’t realize that this passage was your writing, I thought it was stjames.’ I see now that it is your’s. I respond to this paragraph in a post to stjames. Had I read your above statements first, I would have been a lot gentler than I am to stjames.
Posted by Augusta on December 21, 2001, at 8:48:59
In reply to psychopharm consultation - NYC or NC, posted by Elizabeth on December 15, 2001, at 12:04:05
Elizabeth,
It just occurred to me -- could you ask Dr. Bob? Who would better know the movers and shakers in the field! And since he is in Chicago . . . .
Yes, I can anticipate the problems with this suggestion but . . . worth a try? (maybe?)
Posted by Guinnee Pig on December 21, 2001, at 10:33:47
In reply to Re: Hmmmm....herbal/vitamin chemical use » Cam W., posted by jay on December 16, 2001, at 17:54:36
Well, I just visited the site thanks to your bad publicity that will surely get more people to the site rather than less just by mentioning it...Anyway I agree something stinks around there of a potential future lawsuit.
Kristin
Posted by Cam W. on December 21, 2001, at 18:00:22
In reply to Re: Hmmmm....herbal/vitamin chemical use, posted by Guinnee Pig on December 21, 2001, at 10:33:47
Kristin - Actually, it is the Truehope people (or someone related to them) that log in here as posters, touting this wonderful new product for mental disorders. This last assault was, I believe, at least the 3rd time I have seen them in here. I have been told that they do this on other sites, as well. As well as personally not liking their product, I do not like their methods of advertising. But, what can one do ..... hmmmm ..... what can one do.
- Cam
Posted by Guinnee Pig on December 22, 2001, at 11:18:57
In reply to Re: Hmmmm....herbal/vitamin chemical use » Guinnee Pig, posted by Cam W. on December 21, 2001, at 18:00:22
Right on Cam...Thanks for giving us all the heads up. I agree with you completely.
Kristin
Posted by shellir on December 22, 2001, at 11:29:07
In reply to psychopharm consultation - NYC or NC, posted by Elizabeth on December 15, 2001, at 12:04:05
> I'm interested in getting a consultation with a psychopharmacologist who's well-known, respected, etc., who might have ideas that could help me (I've tried most conventional AD and augmentations with limited success). I'd prefer a person with a research background (since researchers are usually most likely to know about nontraditional techniques), but that's not an absolute must.
>Hi Elizabeth. I'm going to ask you some questions later about methadone, but I wanted to tell you the situation in washington, d.c., since I have spent my entire adult life here.
I don't believe there is anyone worth seeing once in washington. It is very very conservative here and I have been searching. I had been with Dr. Suzanne Griffin, the best known psychopharmachologist (actually chevy chase, md) for eight years and when the nardil stopped working, there was nothing that she suggested that I hadn't already known from this board. So I truely feel that a consultation would be a waste of time and money. (I like her very much as a person; she is informed , e.g., goes to all the APA meetings, but anti anti opiates.)
I have a name in d.c. that I am going to see (Dr. Richard Hedeya) but he can't see me for three weeks unless he gets a cancellation. He is a psychiatrist (wholistic) who does many many tests, including thyroid, hormone, etc.). He teaches at Georgetown University, but he is not affiliated with the hospital. Even my conventional last pdoc has a lot of respect for him.
Elizabeth, unfortunately, I don't think he is the kind of pscychiatrist that you see once for a consultation.
I once spent an hour on the phone with Richard Brown, who Mair mentioned that she also spoke with. I liked him very much, and at time he wasn't accepting any patients. What he did with me is go through a list of things to augment nardil with, starting with lamictal. As it turned out, I *did* have the most luck with nardil and lamictal, gained 15lbs of water weight and went off. Second time on, not as successful and I hated hated hated the extra 15lbs--my body felt very uncomfortable.
Is Boston out of the question? I actually had been on the way to Johns Hopkins when I got sidetracked and commmited in d.c., but my guess is that they are also conservative. Have you heard of anyone out of Hopkins?
Right now I am taking very low methadone to survive until I can get back home to d.c. It is,of course, the worst possible time to fall apart.
Sorry, no answers, hope someone comes up with something.
Shelli
Posted by Annie Z. on December 22, 2001, at 14:03:48
In reply to Re: Hmmmm....herbal/vitamin chemical use » Guinnee Pig, posted by Cam W. on December 21, 2001, at 18:00:22
I am not associated with True Hope at all. Again, you make statements with nothing to back them up. Please stop your slander.
> Kristin - Actually, it is the Truehope people (or someone related to them) that log in here as posters, touting this wonderful new product for mental disorders. This last assault was, I believe, at least the 3rd time I have seen them in here. I have been told that they do this on other sites, as well. As well as personally not liking their product, I do not like their methods of advertising. But, what can one do ..... hmmmm ..... what can one do.
>
> - Cam
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.