Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 86733

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Irreversible changes

Posted by Rakken on December 12, 2001, at 17:40:16

Lately I've been very concerned about irriversible changes from medications. I don't know if I've taken any meds that have caused permanent change. But I'd like to get all the info I can. I'm worried about agreeing to try a med, and finding later that it causes irreversible change. I heard that some anti-depressants (if not all) cause irreversible changes to the brain. Stuff like MAOI's and Remeron specifically. Makes me think that the SSRI's must do it too. I know antipsychotics can cause some irreversible changes such as "twitches" among other things. And I know benzos can impair memory. But I don't know if that goes back to normal (is reversible) overtime. I hope to be med free one of these days, and I really need some reassurance or info so that I can avoid messing myself up. Sometimes it seems that one med leads to another and another. And diagnosis keeps changing. Meaning more meds.
Any info on long term irreversible change from meds would be greatly appreciated. Especially stuff on SSRI's, Remeron, MAOI's, benzos, antipsychotics (seroquel, geodon, risperdal,zyprexa), beta-blockers (propranolol), clonidine, stimulants (ritalin, dexedrine, adderall), GABA meds(depakote, neurontin, baclofen), Buspar or anything else I left out.

And is there any irreversible damage from drug withdrawal? Or from those serotonin/dopamine syndromes (I read somewhere Buspar and SSRI's can cause them sometimes)? And in order for meds to cause irreversible changes, do you have to be on a high dose (how high), or on them for a long time (how long)?

I know I'm asking a lot of questions, but I've tried finding info in the area numerous times and I never get a clear answer. The whole thing is adding to more and more stress and anxiety. Sorry about the long post. Thanks for anything.

 

Re: Irreversible changes

Posted by bob on December 12, 2001, at 21:07:22

In reply to Irreversible changes, posted by Rakken on December 12, 2001, at 17:40:16

Rakken:

I think the things you're asking are all questions anybody would love to have the answer to, but sadly, I'm afraid we might find out the true meaning of life before we answer any of what you've just posed. I've often wondered the very same things you pose. I think the medical community, if they admit anything, will tend toward any evidence of what you're claiming to be scant, and somewhat circumstantial. These are also people who do not take the drugs for the most part. I've taken many of them, and I could swear that a few of them have left me with a "syndrome". Things don't seem to be getting better for me, but worse.

 

Re: Irreversible changes: there's hope

Posted by Anna Laura on December 13, 2001, at 6:39:26

In reply to Irreversible changes, posted by Rakken on December 12, 2001, at 17:40:16

> Lately I've been very concerned about irriversible changes from medications. I don't know if I've taken any meds that have caused permanent change. But I'd like to get all the info I can. I'm worried about agreeing to try a med, and finding later that it causes irreversible change. I heard that some anti-depressants (if not all) cause irreversible changes to the brain. Stuff like MAOI's and Remeron specifically. Makes me think that the SSRI's must do it too. I know antipsychotics can cause some irreversible changes such as "twitches" among other things. And I know benzos can impair memory. But I don't know if that goes back to normal (is reversible) overtime. I hope to be med free one of these days, and I really need some reassurance or info so that I can avoid messing myself up. Sometimes it seems that one med leads to another and another. And diagnosis keeps changing. Meaning more meds.
> Any info on long term irreversible change from meds would be greatly appreciated. Especially stuff on SSRI's, Remeron, MAOI's, benzos, antipsychotics (seroquel, geodon, risperdal,zyprexa), beta-blockers (propranolol), clonidine, stimulants (ritalin, dexedrine, adderall), GABA meds(depakote, neurontin, baclofen), Buspar or anything else I left out.
>
> And is there any irreversible damage from drug withdrawal? Or from those serotonin/dopamine syndromes (I read somewhere Buspar and SSRI's can cause them sometimes)? And in order for meds to cause irreversible changes, do you have to be on a high dose (how high), or on them for a long time (how long)?
>
> I know I'm asking a lot of questions, but I've tried finding info in the area numerous times and I never get a clear answer. The whole thing is adding to more and more stress and anxiety. Sorry about the long post. Thanks for anything.

Hi

There is room for the brain to recover from anatomical changes in nervous pathways; brain changes induced both from illness, injury or meds don't seem to be so irreversible even though further researches need to be done to find a valid device to reverse eventual injuries or changes of the nervous system.
Besides that, brain grows and regenerates over and over again just like a plant does: this is called neural plasticity (you may do some research on this topic and find out more about it). Until few years ago it was believed brain couldn't grow or rigenerate much after the so-called "critical period" ( its early stages of development). Recent studies showed it's not so as brain showed to have more growing capacity then it was supposed to.
An example: a person who was born blind and gets an eye operation doesn't recuperate the ability to see things until brain cells in the occipital area (that would be the prominent part above the neck which controls image perception, colours, movement etc.) begin to grow and "build up" perception of things as they receive light signals through the eyes.
Of course the question is not so simple as it seems as many other factors may interfere in the regrowth process. Still, there's hope and research is moving forward: new drugs and devices are being studied that could help brain regrowth.
There are some drugs available that have been shown to have anti-degenerative properties, such as Selegiline and Adafrinil.

Here are some excerpts from researches i've made on the net:

"Recovery from injury in the peripheral nervous system may be mediated by regrowth over long distances and the appropriate reconnection of damaged nerves. In the brain, the situation is far more grim, for two reasons: regrowth over any but the shortest of distances after injury is generally abortive or at best extremely modest, and nerve cells that die are generally not replaced. The failure of large scale regrowth after injury to the brain appears to depend in part on signaling from specific growth-inhibitory molecules, and surely an attack on these signals will be part of new efforts to promote CNS regeneration. In the last few years, the promotion of new cell divisions by neurons that had long been thought to be completely post-mitotic has also become an attractive strategy. Either or both of these approaches may in the next few years completely change the prospects for recovery from brain injury."

Adult plasticity and neural regeneration

Activity-dependent neural plasticity is clearly present in the brain during adult life. Indeed, some sort of plasticity must underlie the learning of new facts and skills, and there is much interest in its mechanisms and pharmacology. In many cases, adult plasticity appears to resemble the first stages of the plasticity of the critical period, but without the rapid and substantial anatomical re-arrangements.

 

Re: Irreversible changes: maybe Vitamin B12?

Posted by effiesmom on December 13, 2001, at 9:02:25

In reply to Re: Irreversible changes: there's hope, posted by Anna Laura on December 13, 2001, at 6:39:26

Wow! Thanks for looking that up! Another way to at least feel better and feel like you are doing something to help yourself is to try sublingual Vitamin B12 (sublingual means administered under the tongue.) It's NOT regular B12; the package will actually say "sublingual." I couldn't find it at the regular drug store-type chains, so I found it at my local GNC store. I'm suggesting sublingual instead of vitamin tablets because sublingual administration is supposed to be as effective as getting the B12 shot but cheaper and more pleasant. FYI - B12 is used for nervous system regeneration, for added stamina, for aiding in proper blood formation, and often used to help handle stress. I also have been drinking at least 64 oz. of water each day to help me feel like I am flushing the toxins from my body. (Do you think they used the word 'flush' BEFORE toilets were invented? LOLOL) Good luck to you all!

 

Re: Irreversible changes: Positive Changes?

Posted by Simcha on December 13, 2001, at 10:58:48

In reply to Re: Irreversible changes: maybe Vitamin B12?, posted by effiesmom on December 13, 2001, at 9:02:25

OK, supposedly my illness has been caused by a chemical imbalance which is physical. If these drugs permanently change my brain and my neurons, could this possibly be a good-positive thing? Perhaps things might fire better between my synapses. Do I dare to try to take an optimistic stance? I don't know much about the science of what these changes might be like...

> Wow! Thanks for looking that up! Another way to at least feel better and feel like you are doing something to help yourself is to try sublingual Vitamin B12 (sublingual means administered under the tongue.) It's NOT regular B12; the package will actually say "sublingual." I couldn't find it at the regular drug store-type chains, so I found it at my local GNC store. I'm suggesting sublingual instead of vitamin tablets because sublingual administration is supposed to be as effective as getting the B12 shot but cheaper and more pleasant. FYI - B12 is used for nervous system regeneration, for added stamina, for aiding in proper blood formation, and often used to help handle stress. I also have been drinking at least 64 oz. of water each day to help me feel like I am flushing the toxins from my body. (Do you think they used the word 'flush' BEFORE toilets were invented? LOLOL) Good luck to you all!

 

Re: Irreversible changes: maybe Vitamin B12? effiesmom

Posted by IsoM on December 13, 2001, at 14:46:51

In reply to Re: Irreversible changes: maybe Vitamin B12?, posted by effiesmom on December 13, 2001, at 9:02:25

Effiesmom, I'd hate to throw cold water on your idea, but taking just one of the B complex vitamins can develop an inbalance of the other B complex. I'm always bothered when I see on B vitamin tablets the wording "Balanced B Complex". The only thing that's balanced is they're all the same amount - generally 50mg.

The best way I can explain it is to have you understand the difference in making a cake using your regular recipe & then deciding it would be easier to make if you simply used 1 cup of everything - flour, sugar, butter, vanilla, salt, baking powder. Not much of a cake, hey?

It's the same with the nutrients our body needs. That's why even if you picked a couple of the healthiest foods & ate only them, you'd soon show deficiencies symptoms. If you're interested in the B complex vitamins, I'd suggest getting some tasty nutritional yeast flakes (some taste terrible!) with added B12.

The sublingual B12 pills were initially developed for those people who have digestive disorders & lacked the necessary factors to absorb B12 from their diet. If you'd rather have tablets than supplemental food, I'd suggest buying the ones that are labelled Stress Tabs. They are more in line with the amounts of B complex plus vitamin C, that the body needs but at higher doses.

> Wow! Thanks for looking that up! Another way to at least feel better and feel like you are doing something to help yourself is to try sublingual Vitamin B12 (sublingual means administered under the tongue.) It's NOT regular B12; the package will actually say "sublingual." I couldn't find it at the regular drug store-type chains, so I found it at my local GNC store. I'm suggesting sublingual instead of vitamin tablets because sublingual administration is supposed to be as effective as getting the B12 shot but cheaper and more pleasant. FYI - B12 is used for nervous system regeneration, for added stamina, for aiding in proper blood formation, and often used to help handle stress. I also have been drinking at least 64 oz. of water each day to help me feel like I am flushing the toxins from my body. (Do you think they used the word 'flush' BEFORE toilets were invented? LOLOL) Good luck to you all!

 

Re: Irreversible changes: maybe Vitamin B12?

Posted by effiesmom on December 13, 2001, at 15:14:50

In reply to Re: Irreversible changes: maybe Vitamin B12? effiesmom, posted by IsoM on December 13, 2001, at 14:46:51

> Effiesmom, I'd hate to throw cold water on your idea, but > Ok - no cold water, but you burst my bubble AND took the wind out of my sails :o( LOL I am interested in this type of information in general - any good, specific web site info available? AND...I hope I haven't steered anyone wrong - we'll leave THAT to the drug manufacturers! hahahahaha

 

Re: Irreversible changes: maybe Vitamin B12? effiesmom

Posted by IsoM on December 13, 2001, at 15:32:05

In reply to Re: Irreversible changes: maybe Vitamin B12?, posted by effiesmom on December 13, 2001, at 15:14:50

No particular web-site but I'll look for a couple of good ones & post later. Just pulled the info from my years of reading science, medical journals & university courses & textbooks & managing a health food store for a few years.
********************************************************************************************

> > Effiesmom, I'd hate to throw cold water on your idea, but > Ok - no cold water, but you burst my bubble AND took the wind out of my sails :o( LOL I am interested in this type of information in general - any good, specific web site info available? AND...I hope I haven't steered anyone wrong - we'll leave THAT to the drug manufacturers! hahahahaha

 

Re: Irreversible changes: maybe Vitamin B12?

Posted by Kat26 on December 18, 2001, at 15:41:52

In reply to Re: Irreversible changes: maybe Vitamin B12? effiesmom, posted by IsoM on December 13, 2001, at 15:32:05

So taking just B12 is bad? I have been taking it often, since I eat hardly any animal products.
Kat26

 

Vitamin B12 is NOT bad! Kat26

Posted by effiesmom on December 18, 2001, at 15:51:42

In reply to Re: Irreversible changes: maybe Vitamin B12?, posted by Kat26 on December 18, 2001, at 15:41:52

B12 is NOT bad - and it is TOTALLY necessary as a supplement for vegetarians. What the earier post implied about B12 was regarding mega-doses or doses out of balance with proportions of other vitamins and minerals. My first reference to B12 was for sublingual B12, and the only dose I found had 16,667% (YES! 16,667% - not a typo!) of the U.S. R.D.A. How is THAT for mega-dosing? LOL You can see how someone would caution against favoring one vitamin over others. :o)

> So taking just B12 is bad? I have been taking it often, since I eat hardly any animal products.
> Kat26

 

Re: Vitamin B12 is NOT bad!

Posted by Willow on December 18, 2001, at 18:50:52

In reply to Vitamin B12 is NOT bad! Kat26, posted by effiesmom on December 18, 2001, at 15:51:42

I've been on B12 injections for the past five years. When I was first started on them and told that my B12 wasn't low I inquired if there was any harm in the injections? I've been reassured by several doctors that it is okay, that it is a water soluble vitamin, meaning you excrete any excess. Now having said all this I was suprised this summer to find my ferritin, iron, level to be low. I wonder if the B12 caused this?

Willow

ps I have tried the ones that disolve under the tongue, and found them not to be of help like the injections

 

Re: Irreversible changes: maybe Fish/Omega Oils... effiesmom

Posted by jay on December 22, 2001, at 3:52:44

In reply to Re: Irreversible changes: maybe Vitamin B12?, posted by effiesmom on December 13, 2001, at 9:02:25


I would also highly suggest for any folks on medication to consider taking the Omega Fatty Acid oils. The thing is, it requires a "tricky" balance, and often a blend of both the fish as well as a plant based oil can only provide the proper balance. Before you go out and try this, do a bit of research on which oils might best suit you. I take a slightly higher dose of Flax and Evening Primrose with my Salmon Oil capsules.
I take about 6-7 grams each a day in divided doses. (This is based on amounts used in recent medical studies on these suppliments.)

I will report on any benefits once I start taking for a bit longer period of time. I do *also* take meds, including Effexor, Zyprexa (only 2.5 mg's) and Ativan.

I have noticed a slight energy increase, less water retention, as well as elimination of the constipation my medications where causing me.

Jay

> Wow! Thanks for looking that up! Another way to at least feel better and feel like you are doing something to help yourself is to try sublingual Vitamin B12 (sublingual means administered under the tongue.) It's NOT regular B12; the package will actually say "sublingual." I couldn't find it at the regular drug store-type chains, so I found it at my local GNC store. I'm suggesting sublingual instead of vitamin tablets because sublingual administration is supposed to be as effective as getting the B12 shot but cheaper and more pleasant. FYI - B12 is used for nervous system regeneration, for added stamina, for aiding in proper blood formation, and often used to help handle stress. I also have been drinking at least 64 oz. of water each day to help me feel like I am flushing the toxins from my body. (Do you think they used the word 'flush' BEFORE toilets were invented? LOLOL) Good luck to you all!


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