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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 9 of 9. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Alex01 on October 4, 2001, at 4:38:17
Am wondering if anyone has any knowledge on why it might be that my usual depression/anhedonia anxiety problems are helped by sleep deprivation.
If I am short of a few hours sleep I feel, for a day or two, much brighter, my mind is clearer and I feel more emotional (as distinct from normal flat nothingness), I even manage to cry, which I consider a an achievement.
I do feel the usual tired symptoms, aching body, harder to concentrate etc but for a while it does great things for my mood and clarity of mind. After a day or two though I crash and just get tired.
Is it endorphins? Something else? A Dr once said it was about the brain readjusting itself in some way. If there were a med which could replicate the effects I would be very interested.
Posted by Dinah on October 4, 2001, at 8:24:04
In reply to Sleep deprivation as an anti depressant, posted by Alex01 on October 4, 2001, at 4:38:17
I don't understand the mechanism behind it but it certainly works. I admit to choosing to stay up past the point of tiredness a few nights in a row sometimes to deliberately induce a mild sort of hypomania. Probably NOT a good idea.
I, too, would be interested in knowing the biochemistry behind it.
Dinah
Posted by SLS on October 4, 2001, at 10:18:26
In reply to Re: Sleep deprivation as an anti depressant » Alex01, posted by Dinah on October 4, 2001, at 8:24:04
> I don't understand the mechanism behind it but it certainly works. I admit to choosing to stay up past the point of tiredness a few nights in a row sometimes to deliberately induce a mild sort of hypomania. Probably NOT a good idea.
> I, too, would be interested in knowing the biochemistry behind it.
> Dinah
Hi.One strategy used to make the most of sleep deprivation is to go to bed at your normal time and wake up at 2:00am - 3:00am. The key is to force a phase *advance* in the circadian rhythm. Retarding the rhythm (going to bed late and over-sleeping) can actually make depression worse. There are some reports that using sleep deprivation can accelerate the response to antidepressants. I haven't researched it enough to know how to go about using sleep deprivation on a regular basis, but I imagine it involves periodic rather than continuous application.
I believe the current thought is that the antidepressant effects of sleep deprivation involve dopaminergic function. A number of years ago, researchers at the NIMH tried to establish an association between a patient's response to a single night's total sleep deprivation and the drugs that they respond to. I wish I could remember for sure what they found, but I don't. I think non-response to SD prognosticated for reduced rates of response to Wellbutrin and MAOIs. Not sure.
- Scott
Posted by Simcha on October 4, 2001, at 10:33:46
In reply to Re: Sleep deprivation as an anti depressant, posted by SLS on October 4, 2001, at 10:18:26
Geez NO!
For me sleep deprivation (alla insomnia) was part of my depression. It did not help me. It made things much worse. If I don't get my 7-8 hours, I'm a mess.
I also didn't eat when I was down in the dumps. It's strange how we all have different symptoms for the same illness...
> > I don't understand the mechanism behind it but it certainly works. I admit to choosing to stay up past the point of tiredness a few nights in a row sometimes to deliberately induce a mild sort of hypomania. Probably NOT a good idea.
> > I, too, would be interested in knowing the biochemistry behind it.
> > Dinah
>
>
> Hi.
>
> One strategy used to make the most of sleep deprivation is to go to bed at your normal time and wake up at 2:00am - 3:00am. The key is to force a phase *advance* in the circadian rhythm. Retarding the rhythm (going to bed late and over-sleeping) can actually make depression worse. There are some reports that using sleep deprivation can accelerate the response to antidepressants. I haven't researched it enough to know how to go about using sleep deprivation on a regular basis, but I imagine it involves periodic rather than continuous application.
>
> I believe the current thought is that the antidepressant effects of sleep deprivation involve dopaminergic function. A number of years ago, researchers at the NIMH tried to establish an association between a patient's response to a single night's total sleep deprivation and the drugs that they respond to. I wish I could remember for sure what they found, but I don't. I think non-response to SD prognosticated for reduced rates of response to Wellbutrin and MAOIs. Not sure.
>
>
> - Scott
Posted by SLS on October 4, 2001, at 12:29:17
In reply to Re: Sleep deprivation as an anti depressant, posted by Simcha on October 4, 2001, at 10:33:46
> Geez NO!
>
> For me sleep deprivation (alla insomnia) was part of my depression. It did not help me. It made things much worse. If I don't get my 7-8 hours, I'm a mess.
>
> I also didn't eat when I was down in the dumps. It's strange how we all have different symptoms for the same illness...
>You make a good point. Insomnia, particularly early morning awakenings, is a defining symptom of the more classic major unipolar (melancholic and psychotic) depressions as opposed to the hypersomnia of the atypical type. Usually, these aberrations of sleep patterns resolve with remission.
Sleep deprivation does not work if it is used every day. The therapeutic effect is more the result of a phase advancement of the circadian rhythm relative to one's baseline entrainment rather than a simple reduction in the total number of hours of sleep. If one follows the same pattern of sleep deprivation for any lenth of time, this pattern entrains a new baseline circadian rhythm. Then, you are pretty much back to square one.
- Scott
Posted by nathan on October 4, 2001, at 12:42:27
In reply to Re: Sleep deprivation as an anti depressant, posted by Simcha on October 4, 2001, at 10:33:46
What are you taking now? Sleep deprivation is also a problem for me. How did you overcome it?
> Geez NO!
>
> For me sleep deprivation (alla insomnia) was part of my depression. It did not help me. It made things much worse. If I don't get my 7-8 hours, I'm a mess.
>
> I also didn't eat when I was down in the dumps. It's strange how we all have different symptoms for the same illness...
>
>
> > > I don't understand the mechanism behind it but it certainly works. I admit to choosing to stay up past the point of tiredness a few nights in a row sometimes to deliberately induce a mild sort of hypomania. Probably NOT a good idea.
> > > I, too, would be interested in knowing the biochemistry behind it.
> > > Dinah
> >
> >
> > Hi.
> >
> > One strategy used to make the most of sleep deprivation is to go to bed at your normal time and wake up at 2:00am - 3:00am. The key is to force a phase *advance* in the circadian rhythm. Retarding the rhythm (going to bed late and over-sleeping) can actually make depression worse. There are some reports that using sleep deprivation can accelerate the response to antidepressants. I haven't researched it enough to know how to go about using sleep deprivation on a regular basis, but I imagine it involves periodic rather than continuous application.
> >
> > I believe the current thought is that the antidepressant effects of sleep deprivation involve dopaminergic function. A number of years ago, researchers at the NIMH tried to establish an association between a patient's response to a single night's total sleep deprivation and the drugs that they respond to. I wish I could remember for sure what they found, but I don't. I think non-response to SD prognosticated for reduced rates of response to Wellbutrin and MAOIs. Not sure.
> >
> >
> > - Scott
Posted by Simcha on October 4, 2001, at 14:35:11
In reply to simcha ..., posted by nathan on October 4, 2001, at 12:42:27
Nathan,
I've been in therapy for the past 10 years or so. I've dealt with many of my abuse issues. Much of the reason I could not sleep was that every time I fell asleep I would have nightmares.
I'm now on 20mg of Celexa/day. Celexa tends to make me drowsy. I am also on 200mg of Wellbutrin SR. This is activating. It seems that now that the depression is under control I don't have insomnia. I sleep like a baby.
I really think that the depression and anxiety were the reasons for my insomnia.
I hope that helps. Keep going on your journey. I hope you stumble on the answer. I seem to have found an answer for now. I just hope it keeps working..
Take Care,
Simcha> What are you taking now? Sleep deprivation is also a problem for me. How did you overcome it?
>
>
>
> > Geez NO!
> >
> > For me sleep deprivation (alla insomnia) was part of my depression. It did not help me. It made things much worse. If I don't get my 7-8 hours, I'm a mess.
> >
> > I also didn't eat when I was down in the dumps. It's strange how we all have different symptoms for the same illness...
> >
> >
> > > > I don't understand the mechanism behind it but it certainly works. I admit to choosing to stay up past the point of tiredness a few nights in a row sometimes to deliberately induce a mild sort of hypomania. Probably NOT a good idea.
> > > > I, too, would be interested in knowing the biochemistry behind it.
> > > > Dinah
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi.
> > >
> > > One strategy used to make the most of sleep deprivation is to go to bed at your normal time and wake up at 2:00am - 3:00am. The key is to force a phase *advance* in the circadian rhythm. Retarding the rhythm (going to bed late and over-sleeping) can actually make depression worse. There are some reports that using sleep deprivation can accelerate the response to antidepressants. I haven't researched it enough to know how to go about using sleep deprivation on a regular basis, but I imagine it involves periodic rather than continuous application.
> > >
> > > I believe the current thought is that the antidepressant effects of sleep deprivation involve dopaminergic function. A number of years ago, researchers at the NIMH tried to establish an association between a patient's response to a single night's total sleep deprivation and the drugs that they respond to. I wish I could remember for sure what they found, but I don't. I think non-response to SD prognosticated for reduced rates of response to Wellbutrin and MAOIs. Not sure.
> > >
> > >
> > > - Scott
Posted by dennison on October 4, 2001, at 22:31:59
In reply to Sleep deprivation as an anti depressant, posted by Alex01 on October 4, 2001, at 4:38:17
> Am wondering if anyone has any knowledge on why it might be that my usual depression/anhedonia anxiety problems are helped by sleep deprivation.
>
> If I am short of a few hours sleep I feel, for a day or two, much brighter, my mind is clearer and I feel more emotional (as distinct from normal flat nothingness), I even manage to cry, which I consider a an achievement.
>
> I do feel the usual tired symptoms, aching body, harder to concentrate etc but for a while it does great things for my mood and clarity of mind. After a day or two though I crash and just get tired.
>
> Is it endorphins? Something else? A Dr once said it was about the brain readjusting itself in some way. If there were a med which could replicate the effects I would be very interested.Hi--Sleep deprivation does indeed help depression it turns up the dopamine system and the effects are extremely similiarto psychostimulants (dex-rit) etc!!! Personally I use sleep deprivation my self and i've found it to be extremely effective . I notice the big improvement in the early morninghours and it continues throughout the day (as long as I don't sleep). The benefits are dramatic for me increased energy substantially, mood elevated, sense of calmness and confidence. When I go to bed the following day I loose the increased mood in about a day but i have no rebound, meaning increased depression or other symptoms. I've always noticed over sleepin dramatically intensifies all symptoms depression,lethargy lack of motivation and poor outlook.
Posted by Ted on October 5, 2001, at 12:02:25
In reply to Sleep deprivation as an anti depressant, posted by Alex01 on October 4, 2001, at 4:38:17
One thing to think about and be careful of is bipolar disorder. Sleep deprivation for me is a real problem because of that. If you use it as a treatment method, just be careful and make sure you have someone to help evaluate your moods to make sure you don't have latent and undiagnosed bipolar disorder which might rear its ugly head.
Ted
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