Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 64575

Shown: posts 1 to 9 of 9. This is the beginning of the thread.

 

EFFEXOR POOP-OUT ??? Anyone - Bad and Good Stories

Posted by SLS on May 29, 2001, at 9:12:29

Hi all.

Sorry to yell again.

Again, although I have not gone back to review a great many posts, I get the impression that Effexor doesn't seem to poop-out for people who experience a significant antidepressant response from it and feel greatly improved.

Gil has made an important point about the population of people posting on Psycho-Babble. In my prior post, I set up a list of ideal inclusion criteria in an attempt to produce less ambiguous results and conclusions. I see that this is a pretty silly thing to do here. We are too special. :-)

So here's the question - again:

Does Effexor poop-out?

I would like to hear from anyone who has used Effexor, with or without other medication.

Good stories and bad stories are welcome.

* For anyone who has had Effexor poop-out on them, please include the maximum dosage that you tried, and how long it worked for you.

Again - It is becoming increasingly apparent that some people don't respond well to Effexor until the dosage is brought up to dosages as high as 600mg per day. This does not mean, however, that it makes sense for everyone to try going that high. I'll see if I can talk to a few people and get a better idea as to when such high dosages are indicated. Maybe there has to be some sort of indication at lower dosages that high dosages have the potential to work.

I am grateful to anyone who contributes to this survey.

:-)

Thanks.


- Scott

 

Re: EFFEXOR POOP-OUT ??? Anyone - Bad and Good Stories

Posted by stjames on May 29, 2001, at 18:15:11

In reply to EFFEXOR POOP-OUT ??? Anyone - Bad and Good Stories, posted by SLS on May 29, 2001, at 9:12:29

I am 6 years on Effexor, with no poop out in sight.

James

 

Re: EFFEXOR POOP-OUT ??? Anyone - Bad and Good Stories » SLS

Posted by Cam W. on May 29, 2001, at 18:34:02

In reply to EFFEXOR POOP-OUT ??? Anyone - Bad and Good Stories, posted by SLS on May 29, 2001, at 9:12:29

Scott - I haven't seen poop-out, yet. I've seen it not working by 10 weeks, with doses up to 300mg. - Cam

 

Re: EFFEXOR POOP-OUT ??? Anyone - Bad and Good Stories » SLS

Posted by paulk on May 29, 2001, at 22:45:21

In reply to EFFEXOR POOP-OUT ??? Anyone - Bad and Good Stories, posted by SLS on May 29, 2001, at 9:12:29

No poop out - BUT - after years of being on it I started getting memory problems - cutting the dose didn't help - Ended up with a choice be happy and non functional or try a different med. Memory problems improved only after going below 25mg/day at which point depression also returned.

 

Re: EFFEXOR POOP-OUT ??? Anyone - Bad and Good Stories

Posted by SLS on May 30, 2001, at 7:42:51

In reply to Re: EFFEXOR POOP-OUT ??? Anyone - Bad and Good Stories » SLS, posted by paulk on May 29, 2001, at 22:45:21

> No poop out - BUT - after years of being on it I started getting memory problems - cutting the dose didn't help - Ended up with a choice be happy and non functional or try a different med. Memory problems improved only after going below 25mg/day at which point depression also returned.


Paul - I addressed a post to you along another thread. It might be that your memory problems are a manifestation of a partial relapse of depression, and that raising the dosage up to a minimum of 150mg will resolve them. 75mg is a very, very low dosage. You really have nothing to lose, except for having to discontinue it again. Well, I guess that can be a significant consideration. How bad were your withdrawal symptoms?

Cam - I wonder if using Zyprexa at dosages between 2.5mg - 5.0mg would help with SSRI / Effexor withdrawal syndrome.

Any thoughts on this?


- Scott

 

Re: EFFEXOR POOP-OUT ??? Anyone - Bad and Good Stories » SLS

Posted by Cam W. on May 30, 2001, at 9:21:02

In reply to Re: EFFEXOR POOP-OUT ??? Anyone - Bad and Good Stories, posted by SLS on May 30, 2001, at 7:42:51

Scott - Because of the 5-HT2A block with Zyprexa, I would think that Zyprexa may actually worsen serotonergic withdrawl syndrome, to a small extent. The withdrawl syndrome is thought to occur because of a sudden withdrawl of serotonin. The best way to treat this state is to slowly remove the serotonin to allow the body to either re-adjust its neurotransmitter complement or to (hopefully) prod the body into increasing the amount of serotonin it produces (or probably a mixture of both).

Scott, I've just had a radical thought on antidepressants and the progression from a reactive depression to a chronic depresssion. This is most definitely "thinking out loud", as it just occurred to me while typing the above post. Hopefully you have some comments on this.

There has been some discussion over the years on cold medicines. Decongestants, like pseudoephedrine and phenylpropranolamine, draw body water into the sinuses to get the mucus (snot) moving. Antihistamines, like chlorpheniramine and bromopheniramine, dry out the sinus lining once the mucus has drained. Some scientists have shown that taking these products, which only treat the symptoms of a cold, actually prolong the cold by tricking the body into thinking that cold is clearing. Thus the body doesn't mount as strong of an attack against the virus and the cold lasts longer than it normally would. Hey, maybe Grandma was right, and lots of fluids (pee off the bug) and bed rest (let the body heal itself) are the best way to treat a cold.

Let's take this a step further to antidepressants (esp. SSRIs). Could antidepressants cause a reactive depression, which, if not too severe, to change to a chronic depression? My theory being that the artificial increase in serotonin causes the body to slow down natural serotonin production. If left long enough, could this possible decrease in natural serotonin be maintained after the antidepressant is removed, thus setting the person up for a relapse. I have not thought this through, yet, but what do you think?

Damn, I hate my overactive brain, sometimes. Looking forward to hearing from you. Your buddy in the bizarre workings of the mind. - Cam

 

Re: EFFEXOR POOP-OUT ??? Anyone - Bad and Good Stories

Posted by SLS on May 31, 2001, at 8:04:09

In reply to Re: EFFEXOR POOP-OUT ??? Anyone - Bad and Good Stories » SLS, posted by Cam W. on May 30, 2001, at 9:21:02

Hi People.

Although this thread has mutated just a bit, I am still interested for people to respond to the original post.

http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20010522/msgs/64575.html

Thank you.


---------------------------------------


Hi Camarooski.

> Scott, I've just had a radical thought on antidepressants and the progression from a reactive depression to a chronic depresssion. This is most definitely "thinking out loud", as it just occurred to me while typing the above post. Hopefully you have some comments on this.
>
> There has been some discussion over the years on cold medicines. Decongestants, like pseudoephedrine and phenylpropranolamine, draw body water into the sinuses to get the mucus (snot) moving. Antihistamines, like chlorpheniramine and bromopheniramine, dry out the sinus lining once the mucus has drained. Some scientists have shown that taking these products, which only treat the symptoms of a cold, actually prolong the cold by tricking the body into thinking that cold is clearing. Thus the body doesn't mount as strong of an attack against the virus and the cold lasts longer than it normally would.

This is fascinating. The body seems to have its own language. Peptidinese?

> Hey, maybe Grandma was right, and lots of fluids (pee off the bug) and bed rest (let the body heal itself) are the best way to treat a cold.

I have been wonderfully amazed that so much of Grandma's folk medicine has been validated by modern science.

> Let's take this a step further to antidepressants (esp. SSRIs). Could antidepressants cause a reactive depression, which, if not too severe, to change to a chronic depression? My theory being that the artificial increase in serotonin causes the body to slow down natural serotonin production. If left long enough, could this possible decrease in natural serotonin be maintained after the antidepressant is removed, thus setting the person up for a relapse. I have not thought this through, yet, but what do you think?

Right now, my fuzzy logic points me in the direction that this is a possibility. I should think that discontinuation-induced antidepressant refractoriness would be a demonstration of this. Perhaps this might also partially explain SSRI poop-out. I have a tough time buying the dopamine-depletion model.

Someone who at the time used the handle "shellie" submitted a post that's wording implied exactly what you are proposing. He or she suggested that it might be that one can be on an antidepressant for too long, and that this is what is responsible for future treatment-resistance. I told this person that this was a brilliant postulation, but he or she was reluctant to accept the accolades of genius. :-) I kept this idea filed under "intriguing and worth keeping in mind".

I have experienced on several occasions a long-term change in mood and cognition as the result of a short trial of a drug. This is what happened to me last summer. I can't be sure which drug was most responsible, but I suspect Provigil. I had been on the drug for only a week. Here, exposure to a drug yielded a negative change of my unmedicated baseline depression and cognitive impairments. It was pretty heavy-duty.

Now comes the fun part. What are some possible mechanisms by which a drug could produce a long-term change in psychobiological function so as to promote a depressive vulnerability or treatment-resistence?

You first. :-)

> Damn, I hate my overactive brain, sometimes.

Only sometimes? With every wish there comes a curse. You thrive on it. ;-)


- Scott

 

Psychobiological Function and Tx Resistance » SLS

Posted by Cam W. on June 2, 2001, at 0:10:05

In reply to Re: EFFEXOR POOP-OUT ??? Anyone - Bad and Good Stories, posted by SLS on May 31, 2001, at 8:04:09

> Now comes the fun part. What are some possible mechanisms by which a drug could produce a long-term change in psychobiological function so as to promote a depressive vulnerability or treatment-resistence?
>
> You first. :-)
>

Scott - Hmmm...Structural changes to neuronal pathways/circuitry (eg altered synaptic pruning) or changes in input or output of various subcortical nuclei or structures (eg changes in hippocampal serotonin output or changes to neuropeptide release in the hypothalamus). Perhaps second messenger changes or alterations in protein/enzyme release.

This is a really tough question because of the complexity of interactions between systems and also the plasticity of the neural circuitry. Also we cannot exclude environmental changes and its effects on circuits and systems.

Going through the scientific data in this area is like building a 100,000 piece car from a 1,000,000 different pieces. For example, I have a blue wire and a red wire; I know what wires do, but what, if any, is the significance of this wire? Is being blue important or is it an arbitrary artifact? Does it even belong in the car?

BTW - The car example hits rather close to home. I just picked up my car from the garage ($600.31 later). I trust the mechanic implicitly and if it wasn't him that did the work, I'd really wonder why my car needs a $277.00 harmonic balancer. Sounds like its aura wasn't right and they had to exorcise it.

I think this topic is too big for either of us right now, but in ten years the answers will seem so obvious. Go figure. - Cam

 

Re: EFFEXOR POOP-OUT ??? Anyone - Bad and Good Stories » Cam W.

Posted by phillybob on June 2, 2001, at 12:38:34

In reply to Re: EFFEXOR POOP-OUT ??? Anyone - Bad and Good Stories » SLS, posted by Cam W. on May 30, 2001, at 9:21:02

> the artificial increase in serotonin causes the body to slow down natural serotonin production. If left long enough, could this possible decrease in natural serotonin be maintained after the antidepressant is removed, thus setting the person up for a relapse.

Haven't posted in a while, but I've thought of this too but never put it as succintly as you have done, Cam.

If such theory holds, I will need a little bit of every darn AD that I've taken for prolonged periods of time in order to reach euthymia. :) How's that for polypharmocology?


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