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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 3 to 27 of 27. Go back in thread:
Posted by judy1 on April 30, 2001, at 21:25:52
In reply to Re: POLL : Neurontin or Lamictal 4 BPII/majrdepr.H, posted by JahL on April 30, 2001, at 18:11:22
I'm extremely down on lithium and depakote for depressive symtoms in bipolar disorder- you'll probably have more success with lamictal. I'm always interested in people having success with neurontin- it had no effect on stopping my cycling but as an adjunct med some people have had success. My pdoc really likes to use klonopin in bp comorbid anxiety- it is an excellent anxiolytic med and has some mood stabilizing qualities. So for your presentation, I would ask your pdoc about a lamictal/klonopin combo. Best of luck- judy
Posted by vince on May 1, 2001, at 1:17:27
In reply to POLL : Neurontin or Lamictal 4 BPII/majrdepr.HELP, posted by katrina on April 30, 2001, at 17:46:01
> If one needs anti-depressant and anti-anxiety help which sounds best? Or should one go with the bigger guns of depakote or Lithium??
> Do either Neurontin or lamictal cause sexual dysfunction. I think nuerontin may??
> Oddly, the first day I took neurontin at 300 mgs. was the best I had felt, but thus it has gone away. Weird...same thing with 4 days of zyprexa.
> Symptoms:
> Anhedonia
> Irritable
> Dysphoric states
> Major depression cycling between mild depression
> Mild to moderate hypomanic periods, which drop into depression
> Social Phobia/anti-social that looks like irritability/avoidance
>
> I just don't know what to do. I am seeing Dubovsky in Denver in two weeks...I think I have had many of the same symptoms but I never thought of myself as BP2. I guess because even my best moods still felt like depression.
What do you mean by disphoric states? I have had really bad periods where I suffer from this unexplainable mental pain. It is not sadness, but just a psychological pain that I can't describe. I just have these strong erges to extinguish the pain. I get really suicidal. Is that disphoria?The only thing that has helped me so far is neurontin. When I started on it, one pill would feel really good, like a benzo. Then it would wear off and I would get jittery. It took me a while to get used to neurontin. I'm at 1800 mg/day and some of the worst symptoms have left. I don't get the lows and the psychological pain any more. I don't think about suicide.
I took lamictal once along with an ssri and it didn't seem to do anything for me, but I think ssri's just screw me up.
I'm thinking about adding either lamictal, Zyprexa or Geodon to the neurontin. I can't decide. Zyprexa sounds to me like the best option but I don't want the weight gain.
Hope your doc helps you make a positive choice, complete remission would be nice :)
Vince
Posted by JohnL on May 1, 2001, at 4:42:17
In reply to POLL : Neurontin or Lamictal 4 BPII/majrdepr.HELP, posted by katrina on April 30, 2001, at 17:46:01
I think your best bet would be to return to Zyprexa and add an SSRI to it, preferably Prozac. Another good option could be Adrafinil.
I only mention these things because they work so well on my symtoms, which are nearly identical to yours, after trying everything else.
Generally I have not seen any real encouraging results with any of the mood stabilizers. I think Zyprexa is a much better bet, but it often needs another med with it to maintain the good response. Such as Prozac, Adrafinil, or both. I take all three and feel better than ever before in my life. I also experienced that quick relapse after a decent start with Zyprexa, but the addition of Prozac and Adrafinil completely jumpstarted it again and made it even better than ever.
John
Posted by Kingfish on May 1, 2001, at 8:14:40
In reply to Re: POLL : Neurontin or Lamictal 4 BPII/majrdepr.HELP, posted by JohnL on May 1, 2001, at 4:42:17
Katrina:
(I love your name, incidentally).
I, too, have very similar symptoms. Topamax, 250 mg, Celexa, 40 mg, and Neurontin, 2400 mg, has helped me. The Neurontin did not have any affect without the Topamax.
The only problem that continues is some sedation, which does interfere at times.
Good luck.
- K.
Posted by katrina on May 1, 2001, at 13:17:02
In reply to Re: dysphoria » vince, posted by JahL on May 1, 2001, at 10:10:32
John..Do you think Adrafanil (olmifon?) is stimulating like anxiety wise? You guys are the best to answer me cuz I have two weeks until I see a pdoc in Denver and I am kinda playin doctor on my own but with my pdoc here in Aspen. Takin zoloft at 50 mgs., 300 neurontin, up to 2 mgs. of klonopin...so I am quite stable, but on a scale of 1-10 it's a 5.5.
Posted by Chris A. on May 1, 2001, at 14:27:33
In reply to POLL : Neurontin or Lamictal 4 BPII/majrdepr.HELP, posted by katrina on April 30, 2001, at 17:46:01
I am seeing Dubovsky in Denver in two weeks...
Why don't you wait and see what he says? He is an excellent pDoc and also
personable. My husband likes his office:) It sounds like we have similar, perhaps
identical symptoms and the same consultant. I just saw him last week. Now to sort
out what direction we're going to go in. He isn't enthusiastic about Neurontin but
there wasn't enough time in the hour for me to pick his brain as to why. Would you
ask for me? He never runs out of treatment alternatives.
My pDoc is willing to try daring combos and cutting edge treatments when he has it
in writing from Dr. D. Some work better than others.Hope it goes well,
Chris A.
Posted by Doo on May 3, 2001, at 12:15:05
In reply to Re: POLL : Neurontin or Lamictal 4 BPII/majrdepr.HELP » katrina, posted by Chris A. on May 1, 2001, at 14:27:33
I take Neurontin 2400 mg along with Moclobemide (Manerix) and I can't say exactly how Neurontin helps me, but I feel it makes me more comfortable with others. I'm still pretty phobic, but I can sometimes relate well with a friend, without being defensive as soon as he or she opens the mouth.
I think it also helps me with dysphoria, I'm less often in intense inner raging.
I have heard Lamictal to have AD properties. I don't think this is true of neurontin, although it has anxiolythic ones.
Take care,
Doo
Posted by ricfabio on May 7, 2001, at 8:48:52
In reply to POLL : Neurontin or Lamictal 4 BPII/majrdepr.HELP, posted by katrina on April 30, 2001, at 17:46:01
> If one needs anti-depressant and anti-anxiety help which sounds best? Or should one go with the bigger guns of depakote or Lithium??
> Do either Neurontin or lamictal cause sexual dysfunction. I think nuerontin may??
> Oddly, the first day I took neurontin at 300 mgs. was the best I had felt, but thus it has gone away. Weird...same thing with 4 days of zyprexa.
> Symptoms:
> Anhedonia
> Irritable
> Dysphoric states
> Major depression cycling between mild depression
> Mild to moderate hypomanic periods, which drop into depression
> Social Phobia/anti-social that looks like irritability/avoidance
>
> I just don't know what to do. I am seeing Dubovsky in Denver in two weeks...
hey I too have had good success on a lamictal/klonopin combo acually the only progress I have made in 6 years - I am currently upping my neurontin dosage to 400mg
peace
Ric
Posted by Doo on May 7, 2001, at 10:56:22
In reply to POLL : Neurontin or Lamictal 4 BPII/majrdepr.HELP, posted by katrina on April 30, 2001, at 17:46:01
> Do either Neurontin or lamictal cause sexual dysfunction. I think nuerontin may??
Neurontin, at least for me, doesn't have such an effect. I don't think it's an issue with this med, but I may be wrong.
Doo
Posted by SalArmy4me on May 7, 2001, at 13:51:45
In reply to Re: POLL : Neurontin or Lamictal 4 BPII/majrdepr.H, posted by Doo on May 7, 2001, at 10:56:22
I haven't heard many complaints about Neurontin or Lamictal causing sexual dysfunction.
> > Do either Neurontin or lamictal cause sexual dysfunction. I think nuerontin may??
>
> Neurontin, at least for me, doesn't have such an effect. I don't think it's an issue with this med, but I may be wrong.
>
> Doo
Posted by Doo on May 7, 2001, at 23:28:24
In reply to Re: POLL : Neurontin or Lamictal 4 BPII/majrdepr.H, posted by SalArmy4me on May 7, 2001, at 13:51:45
Hello everyone,
I was taking Neurontin 1600 mg (4 doses of 400) and it seemed all right, but my pdoc and I decided to give it a try at a higher dosage. Now I take 4 x 600 mg. It might be also because of something that happened to me last week, but the last two days I felt on the edges of psychosis. Dysphoric, self-detructive impulses, self-hatred. Tomorrow, I meet my pdoc.
Has anyone heard of such a 'revival effect' of psychosis with Neurontin?
The other effects of Neurontin right now is some kind of 'fluffyness' like I was in a cloud. That effect is not disabilitating in any way.
oh and btw, I also take Manerix (moclobemide) 300 mg.
Any feedback appreciated.
Doo, feeling no good.
Posted by Lawrence S. on May 9, 2001, at 10:22:51
In reply to Re: POLL : Neurontin or Lamictal 4 BPII/majrdepr.H, posted by judy1 on April 30, 2001, at 21:25:52
>I'm extremely down on lithium and depakote for depressive symtoms in bipolar disorder- you'll probably have more success with lamictal. I'm always interested in people having success with neurontin- it had no effect on stopping my cycling but as an adjunct med some people have had success. My pdoc really likes to use klonopin in bp comorbid anxiety- it is an excellent anxiolytic med and has some mood stabilizing qualities. So for your presentation, I would ask your pdoc about a lamictal/klonopin combo. Best of luck- judy
>I too am extremely down on Lithum. What are your reasons?
Posted by Lawrence S. on May 9, 2001, at 10:44:49
In reply to Re: POLL : Neurontin or Lamictal 4 BPII/majrdepr.H, posted by Doo on May 7, 2001, at 23:28:24
> Hello everyone,
>
> I was taking Neurontin 1600 mg (4 doses of 400) and it seemed all right, but my pdoc and I decided to give it a try at a higher dosage. Now I take 4 x 600 mg. It might be also because of something that happened to me last week, but the last two days I felt on the edges of psychosis. Dysphoric, self-detructive impulses, self-hatred. Tomorrow, I meet my pdoc.>
> Has anyone heard of such a 'revival effect' of psychosis with Neurontin?
>
> The other effects of Neurontin right now is some kind of 'fluffyness' like I was in a cloud. That effect is not disabilitating in any way.
>
> oh and btw, I also take Manerix (moclobemide) 300 mg.
>
> Any feedback appreciated.
> Doo, feeling no good.
> Yes, I had a "paradoxical" effect to Neurontin. I began experiencing psycosis like symptoms for the first time in my life. Fortunately, I returned to my normal self after discontinuation.
Posted by Doo on May 9, 2001, at 11:16:35
In reply to Re: POLL : Neurontin or Lamictal 4 BPII/majrdepr.H, posted by Lawrence S. on May 9, 2001, at 10:44:49
> Yes, I had a "paradoxical" effect to Neurontin. I began experiencing psycosis like symptoms for the first time in my life. Fortunately, I returned to my normal self after discontinuation.
Hi Lawrence, thank's for your reply
Can you describe those symptoms?
I met my pdoc, and I will lower the dose to 2000mg then maybe to 1600mg. Depends how I feel with 2000. In fact I'm tempted to lower directly to 1600. I don't want to feel like I did in the last few days.
I makes me angry when I think that I can never tell for sure if a med helps me or not.
Bye,
Doo> > Hello everyone,
> >
> > I was taking Neurontin 1600 mg (4 doses of 400) and it seemed all right, but my pdoc and I decided to give it a try at a higher dosage. Now I take 4 x 600 mg. It might be also because of something that happened to me last week, but the last two days I felt on the edges of psychosis. Dysphoric, self-detructive impulses, self-hatred. Tomorrow, I meet my pdoc.
>
> >
> > Has anyone heard of such a 'revival effect' of psychosis with Neurontin?
> >
> > The other effects of Neurontin right now is some kind of 'fluffyness' like I was in a cloud. That effect is not disabilitating in any way.
> >
> > oh and btw, I also take Manerix (moclobemide) 300 mg.
> >
> > Any feedback appreciated.
> > Doo, feeling no good.
Posted by Lawrence s. on May 10, 2001, at 11:31:59
In reply to Re: Neurontin and psychosis, posted by Doo on May 9, 2001, at 11:16:35
> > Yes, I had a "paradoxical" effect to Neurontin. I began experiencing psycosis like symptoms for the first time in my life. Fortunately, I returned to my normal self after discontinuation.
>
> Hi Lawrence, thank's for your reply
>
> Can you describe those symptoms?
>
> > >My symptoms were: vivid hallucinations, and fragments of nonsensical dreams while wide awake. Very scarey!
>
> I met my pdoc, and I will lower the dose to 2000mg then maybe to 1600mg. Depends how I feel with 2000. In fact I'm tempted to lower directly to 1600. I don't want to feel like I did in the last few days.
>
> I makes me angry when I think that I can never tell for sure if a med helps me or not.
>
> Bye,
> Doo
>
> > > Hello everyone,
> > >
> > > I was taking Neurontin 1600 mg (4 doses of 400) and it seemed all right, but my pdoc and I decided to give it a try at a higher dosage. Now I take 4 x 600 mg. It might be also because of something that happened to me last week, but the last two days I felt on the edges of psychosis. Dysphoric, self-detructive impulses, self-hatred. Tomorrow, I meet my pdoc.
> >
> > >
> > > Has anyone heard of such a 'revival effect' of psychosis with Neurontin?
> > >
> > > The other effects of Neurontin right now is some kind of 'fluffyness' like I was in a cloud. That effect is not disabilitating in any way.
> > >
> > > oh and btw, I also take Manerix (moclobemide) 300 mg.
> > >
> > > Any feedback appreciated.
> > > Doo, feeling no good.
Posted by Doo on May 10, 2001, at 17:00:52
In reply to Re: Neurontin and psychosis, posted by Lawrence s. on May 10, 2001, at 11:31:59
> > Can you describe those symptoms?> My symptoms were: vivid hallucinations, and fragments of nonsensical dreams while wide awake. Very scarey!
Pfew I have no doubt it must be very, VERY scarey! Were you taking a high dosage?
I'm on my second day with 2000 mg, it seems to be better, I'm a little bit more calm.
Read you later,
Doo
Posted by Mitch on May 11, 2001, at 10:24:24
In reply to Re: Neurontin and psychosis, posted by Doo on May 9, 2001, at 11:16:35
> > > Has anyone heard of such a 'revival effect' of psychosis with Neurontin?
I take Neurontin, but only at a very low dose. I am what most docs call "treatment intolerant" and it is tough to find stuff that I can stand to take(I have had bipolarII for 22 years now-chronic maybe euthymic about half that time or less). I had my Neurontin pushed up to 1800mg for a very *short* time, and experienced an intense depersonalization experience (my arms and legs seem detached and/or belonged to someone else), I also became agitated and very nervous. It got lowered down down down and it is still beneficial at the low dose I take (300mg/day), but can't tolerate much more than that. I also got an even worse depersonalization experience with Gabitril, just an FYI. Anti-convulsants seem to be worse for that.
Posted by Doo on May 11, 2001, at 11:38:13
In reply to Re: Neurontin and psychosis, posted by Mitch on May 11, 2001, at 10:24:24
Hi Mitch, thank's for your post. Indeed, 300mg is a very low dose. I'm presently somewhere between 1600 and 2000, but still not so sure it's of any help. Since it seems to be a very safe drug, I continue taking it, but I don't know for how much longer...
Take care,
Doo.
> > Has anyone heard of such a 'revival effect' of psychosis with Neurontin?
> I take Neurontin, but only at a very low dose. I am what most docs call "treatment intolerant" and it is tough to find stuff that I can stand to take(I have had bipolarII for 22 years now-chronic maybe euthymic about half that time or less). I had my Neurontin pushed up to 1800mg for a very *short* time, and experienced an intense depersonalization experience (my arms and legs seem detached and/or belonged to someone else), I also became agitated and very nervous. It got lowered down down down and it is still beneficial at the low dose I take (300mg/day), but can't tolerate much more than that. I also got an even worse depersonalization experience with Gabitril, just an FYI. Anti-convulsants seem to be worse for that.
Posted by Mitch on May 11, 2001, at 13:32:19
In reply to Re: Neurosis and psychontin ;), posted by Doo on May 11, 2001, at 11:38:13
Hi, Doo I like the Neurosis/psychontin! There are a lot of reports of people that get a lot of "diminishing returns" with respect to benefit of increasing the dosage of Neurontin above 900-1200mgs/day. It just winds up costing you an arm and a leg and you only feel marginally better. You might see about adding something else on and titrate it up slowly and see if you can reduce the Neurontin down to a more *affordable* dosage (that is if it is doing any good). I have found it works best for depression and ADD symptoms more than anything else.
Good luck, Mitch
> Hi Mitch, thank's for your post. Indeed, 300mg is a very low dose. I'm presently somewhere between 1600 and 2000, but still not so sure it's of any help. Since it seems to be a very safe drug, I continue taking it, but I don't know for how much longer...
>
> Take care,
>
> Doo.
>
> > > Has anyone heard of such a 'revival effect' of psychosis with Neurontin?
>
> > I take Neurontin, but only at a very low dose. I am what most docs call "treatment intolerant" and it is tough to find stuff that I can stand to take(I have had bipolarII for 22 years now-chronic maybe euthymic about half that time or less). I had my Neurontin pushed up to 1800mg for a very *short* time, and experienced an intense depersonalization experience (my arms and legs seem detached and/or belonged to someone else), I also became agitated and very nervous. It got lowered down down down and it is still beneficial at the low dose I take (300mg/day), but can't tolerate much more than that. I also got an even worse depersonalization experience with Gabitril, just an FYI. Anti-convulsants seem to be worse for that.
Posted by Doo on May 11, 2001, at 14:04:45
In reply to Re: Neurosis and psychontin ;), posted by Mitch on May 11, 2001, at 13:32:19
Hi Mitch,
>There are a lot of reports of people that get a lot of "diminishing returns" with respect to benefit of increasing the dosage of Neurontin above 900-1200mgs/day.
Pfew I'm having trouble with that sentence... My frenchie brain demands reformulation ;)
TIA,
Doo
Posted by Mitch on May 11, 2001, at 23:16:00
In reply to Re: Neurosis and psychontin ;) » Mitch, posted by Doo on May 11, 2001, at 14:04:45
Bottom line, you take twice of much of it and you get 10% improvement with your symptoms-so why take twice as much.. of something if it only helps 10% more.. If you pay $100 for a script and it works OK, but...they double the dosage and you pay $200 for the next script and you feel a *little* better, why spend the next $100 bucks??
> Hi Mitch,
>
> >There are a lot of reports of people that get a lot of "diminishing returns" with respect to benefit of increasing the dosage of Neurontin above 900-1200mgs/day.
>
> Pfew I'm having trouble with that sentence... My frenchie brain demands reformulation ;)
>
> TIA,
>
> Doo
Posted by Doo on May 13, 2001, at 12:06:43
In reply to Re: Neurosis and psychontin ;), posted by Mitch on May 11, 2001, at 23:16:00
> Bottom line, you take twice of much of it and you get 10% improvement with your symptoms-so why take twice as much.. of something if it only helps 10% more.. If you pay $100 for a script and it works OK, but...they double the dosage and you pay $200 for the next script and you feel a *little* better, why spend the next $100 bucks??
Yeah well, here in Quebec we have an insurance, and we cannot pay more than a certain amount$. I have already reached the top, so I could take loads of it, it wouldn't cost me more. But that's no reason to take loads of something that doesn't make such a big difference.
(I know this is probably to be redirected, but anyways...)
I'm not pro-medication. I think we should try to be well with a minimum of drugs in ourselves. That way we can feel WE have something to do with our improvements. Plus, we don't always fear the 'poop-out'. Well I know this is not always that easy in real life.I don't buy that 'neurotransmitters imbalance' theory anyway. It's not completely false, but it's so business-related! I think the biological aspect of disorders is more of a structural nature, structural in terms of development, in the childhood, of how we relate to environment. What is adaptative in childhood becomes pathological in the adult world. Massive repression of emotions (limbic system) is probably the central point here. If one does not have access to his/her emotions, how can he/she have a sane identity?
That's it for now!
Doo
Posted by Mitch on May 13, 2001, at 14:21:45
In reply to Neurosis taking meds, and theoretical aspects, posted by Doo on May 13, 2001, at 12:06:43
Doo, I think you are right on target with the business-aspect. I believe in *some* type of neurotransitter imbalance-but
1) I think it is more complicated than pdocs and especially pharmaceutical companies would lead you to believe (at least in many cases)
2) Drug companies paint everything that is new that comes out of the hatch as a miracle with no side effects. It is interesting that whenever a new drug comes out how rapidly the adverse event reports start to proliferate.
3) Older medications that are now available as generics and are cheaper (I wish I had a Canadian RX plan:))can be just as useful as the newer stuff.
> I don't buy that 'neurotransmitters imbalance' theory anyway. It's not completely false, but it's so business-related! I think the biological aspect of disorders is more of a structural nature, structural in terms of development, in the childhood, of how we relate to environment. What is adaptative in childhood becomes pathological in the adult world. Massive repression of emotions (limbic system) is probably the central point here. If one does not have access to his/her emotions, how can he/she have a sane identity?
>
> That's it for now!
>
> Doo
Posted by Doo on May 14, 2001, at 0:27:25
In reply to Re: Neurosis taking meds, and theoretical aspects, posted by Mitch on May 13, 2001, at 14:21:45
That's interestings points you have here. The 'new medications' are presented like is a 'new car', or a 'new computer'...
Strange world. Ok gotta leave, I have to shop online for a new computer (!!!).
Doo ;)
> Doo, I think you are right on target with the business-aspect. I believe in *some* type of neurotransitter imbalance-but
> 1) I think it is more complicated than pdocs and especially pharmaceutical companies would lead you to believe (at least in many cases)
> 2) Drug companies paint everything that is new that comes out of the hatch as a miracle with no side effects. It is interesting that whenever a new drug comes out how rapidly the adverse event reports start to proliferate.
> 3) Older medications that are now available as generics and are cheaper (I wish I had a Canadian RX plan:))can be just as useful as the newer stuff.
Posted by queenb on May 14, 2001, at 12:14:32
In reply to Re: Neurosis and psychontin ;), posted by Mitch on May 11, 2001, at 13:32:19
Hi - I was taking 900 of nuerontin a day and 1mg of klonopin. I don't know what it was, but I turned suicidal and psychotic. There was no controlling me. Completely out of control. I have been taken off of these meds and put on depakote. Before I started taking the klonopin i was on xanax and i was fine, so maybe it was the klonopin. who knows????? But, i could feel myself each day ready to snap!!!
Queenb
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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