Psycho-Babble 2000 Thread 345369

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Re: Preparing...

Posted by SLS on May 10, 2004, at 16:20:53

In reply to Re: Preparing... » SLS, posted by judy1 on May 10, 2004, at 15:57:41

Hi Judy.

> please let me know that you are getting help.

I have an appointment to see the doctor tomorrow at 12:30. I don't know what to ask for. I hope he has some strong feelings as to what to do next.

Thanks you all for your support.


- Scott

 

Re: Preparing... (lonnnnnnnnnnnnnng)

Posted by finelinebob on May 10, 2004, at 16:33:05

In reply to Re: Preparing... » SLS, posted by NikkiT2 on May 10, 2004, at 14:42:10

Since you meant to post here, Scott, I'm glad I hesistated to reply on the other board....

I had two responses to what you had to say -- one about the meds and the other about life. I was going to put up the meds one first, but let me defer that.

I can understand your position. I'll be turning 42 in a few months. Being depressed and 40-something is such a bee-yatch, isn't it? I mean, I look back 40 years and I look ahead 40 years, and the prospect of living through what I've already been through is more than a little wearying. Too much future too struggle with. The thing for me, tho, is that I really only started struggling productively when I got into therapy at 35. In five years, I managed to work myself into a place where I thought I really had my act together.

Then I lost all of it. I don't know if you read my "I'm back!" thread above, so forgive me for repeating myself if you have. After 9/11, I went on a downward spiral that has landed me in my parents' basement, any chance of recovering what I had lost completely vanished. I feel like my life is over. Not that I want to kill myself -- nowhere near that. But I am halfway through my biological life and my mental/social/productive life is done.

The funny thing about big, complex, unsolveable problems is that they often have simple answers that escape our notice. Kinda like one of those Star Trek movies, I think, where some Vulcan says something like "When all possible solutions have failed, the logical path is to do something that is not possible" or something like that.

So, for ME, the answer to "My life is over" is: "Start a new one."

Okay, I said the answer was simple. I didn't say anything about the SOLUTION being simple. Implementation is always a b!tch. And starting a new life at 40 is an incredibly daunting, frightening, monstrously huge sort of task. But what else is there to do? Sit in my parents' basement till they die? Fine, but when their social security and retirement fund checks stop coming, what then?

Off myself? If I've learned anything, it is NOT to trust my opinion of myself unless it happens to agree with what my friends and family think of me. I'm a poor judge of my own character. And you know, there are a number of people who find it worthwhile -- gadzooks! even enjoyable and valuable -- to be around me.

I've decided that it is worth all the hard work, all the pain, all the despair if somehow, someway in the next 40 years, should I have that much time, that I should find out for myself why my friends feel about me the way I do.

**They** enjoy the life that I am living ... there has got to be the chance the **I** could learn to enjoy the life that I am living, too.

Now Scott, go ahead and tell me that there is no one in your life that qould make you qualify. You'll find many dissenting opinions here ... and if we disagree with you, then I'm sure those who know you "in person" will disagree even more vehemently. And even if it were only one other person, it would still be worth the chance.

So, if you could be willing to abandon your first 40 years for a clean start on your second 40 years, it is time to come up with a plan of action.

For people like us Babblelanders, being thoughtful, analytic, critical and planful about meds is essential. If you've been through the mill, it's time to review. I don't care how tired you are of it -- just treat me like a complete idiot ignorant of your situation and lets go over it again, okay?

At least do this for yourself: have you kept records? a journal? Do you have accurate information about dates, meds, combinations, responses? I'm glad I have Babble because when I reread some of my posts from '99, I realized just how much I had forgotten ... like how lithium ripped my system to shreds at even minimal does.

Putting it down accurately on paper is the only way you will ever be able to determine that (a) yes, you really HAVE been through every variation there is; (b) if that is true, what may have worked in the past that is worth revisiting; or (c) oops! there's an avenue or two that I haven't explored.

Get in writing. Make a chart so you have a visual cue for comparing time periods on different meds. Get it outside of your head and out into the world, because what we think and what we say are two different things. Making thoughts public changes what we think ... it at leasts forces us to be more complete.

Once you've gotten it out and visible, take it to your doctor and analyze it. Break it down by categories of medications. Is there a category that you haven't tried? Is there a category of meds that works better than the others? Is there a medication in that category that you haven't tried? What is it about this category, what do those meds work on? Is there another way of addressing that issue? After you go through them individually -- and you must address each med individually if you want to understand its effect on you -- move on to combinations of two meds. Any combination of two meds means three effects: the effects of the separate meds and the effect they produce together. Go through by category, then by individual meds. When you are done with that, its time to look at any three med cocktails....

Robert Pirsig said that the point to climbing a mountain is not reaching the top. The top of a mountain is barren. It is the sides of the mountain that support life. All of the struggle happens on the sides of the mountain, and if you don't pay attention to the struggle then you are missing what life is about. The struggle is worth it.

Last thing about the meds: are you sure that this Voice of Preparation isn't the chemicals talking to you?

I'm no expert, but I've never heard of memantine before. I did a search on the web and found lots of references to Parkinson's, Alzheimer's, age-related dementia and other degenerative diseases of the nervous system. The only depression-related reference I could find was a mention of interaction effects with SSRIs. No mention whether those interactions could actually mean a boost in their effect, tho.

My concern is that I have no information to help out here and, given what I could find, I wonder if anyone else out there is using that med. If you were a newbie to meds starting up on zoloft, I know I could tell you that two weeks was nowhere near enough time to judge the efficacy of the med and if you were bouncing off the walls, there are things you can do to get you through the next few weeks.

What does your doctor know about its use? Has he informed you about what you might experience building up to a therapeutic level or how long that might take? Have you talked to your doctor at all about the initial success and then the crash you've had? I know these are basic, "obvious" questions ... but I forget to ask them of myself. I'd need your help to think of them if our places were reversed.

Other than a PS, I've said more than enough ... I hope you could bear all my goings on and that maybe you could connect with some of it.

Hang in there,
flb

PS. about analyzing the meds and how it would have worked for me. I'm lucky -- TCAs seem to work for me. It took me 30 months of SSRI hell to get there. If I could have charted out the time I spent on zoloft and paxil, and then the time I spent on wellbutrin (another seratonin reuptake inhibitor in part) and then wellbutrin and prozac ... well, maybe my pdoc and I could have made a better decision eight months earlier. As it was, we decided to retry zoloft with lithium and, when the lithium failed, with nortriptyline. If we hadn't been so set on having an SSRI in the mix, then maybe we would have tried a TCA on its own much, much earlier. It should have been obvious, if I had charted things out, that seratonin was not my problem. So, what does that leave? Norepinephrine and dopamine, or am I missing something? TCAs for the first. It should have been obvious, but juggling things in our heads and in conversation, 30 minutes per month, it escaped me and my pdoc.

Now wellbutrin also made me psychotic. It's a dopamine reuptake inhibitor as well ... also works on norepinephrine. Methylphenidate, on the other hand, boosts production of dopamine (if I recall correctly). Same neurotransmitter, different effect. Turns out taking Ritalin didn't make me psychotic, but in combination with nortriptyline it improves my mood and my cognition both.

Last December, my negative cashflow finally caught up with me. No money for doctors, no money for meds. In April, it finally occurred to my med-free, unadulterated state of mind that I really needed my meds to function. Personally, I don't know what happy is. The only baseline I have for what to feel is my unmedicated state. Being off medication for 4-5 months got me back in touch with that baseline and although nothing worth mentioning happened in my life during that period, I do not regret going off my meds. I learned a lot, and I got back on. Quite frankly, I don't recall nortriptyline working as well for me as it is right now (1 month back on, rock steady mood since about 1 week on). Of course, the circumstances of my life now and the majority of the time I have been on nortrip are radically different but, arguably, I've got a lot more to complain about now. Still, I'm not second guessing myself or how I feel. I've got some "traction" back in my life. I know things can get better from here on out. I refuse to have hope -- its done more harm to me than good -- but I am optimistic nonetheless.

phew ... just hit the Submit button already!....

 

Re: Preparing... » judy1

Posted by Racer on May 10, 2004, at 16:37:09

In reply to Re: Preparing... » SLS, posted by judy1 on May 10, 2004, at 15:57:41

Dear Scott,

I won't try to say that I know how you feel, but I think from what you've said that you're feeling something akin to what I'm feeling. In a way, it's made me want to be close to you, because it is a bond between us -- from my standpoint, when I'm not so blindly selfish from the depression. I get so wrapped up in my own misery, that I just ask for support and forget to offer anything in return. I'm sorry for that, because knowing that you're there and will offer up what you got if I need it means so much to me, and I wish I could say that I do the same for you -- but, in fact, I don't. Doesn't mean I don't think of you, with a great deal of respect and affection, just means I can't always express it directly.

You've always impressed me as being informed, intelligent, straightforward, and generous. Those are all traits I particularly admire. I suspect that they also go hand in hand with depressive tendencies and stress, but that's another story. I think, from reading what you write, that you're what I call a Polygon. You're not a square peg trying to fit into a round hole, and you're not a round peg, either. You have too many facets to fit into any preformed space, you need a space of your own, custom fit to your needs. I don't mean that in terms of a therapeutic space -- I mean that in terms of a life space. (I have a friend with a short memory who claims to have left a promising career in the sciences to struggle along with a non-profit. In truth, he's another Polygon, and he wasn't satisfied, nor winning brownie points, in his scientific life. He left because he found a way to build his many-faceted life-space. Guess what? Took a while, got him in trouble with most people around him, but he's successful, happy, productive -- everything, in short, that we want to be, right? I hold him up in front of my mental eye to remind me that it is possible. If you want to hold him up, too, he's blond, middling height, thinning hair, beard, a little plump -- and the handsomest man I know besides you and Phil and Greg and my husband. Especially when he smiles.) I guess what I'm saying is that you're not failing. You aren't miserable because you're too little -- you aren't succeeding because you're too MUCH. You have so much more than most people, and yes -- that is a burden, because it does cause problems, and it does make us feel as if we should have enough to get over this. No bootstrapping. Sure, we have a lot to fall back on, because we have so much, but if we're bitten by a shark, we still need a doctor, right? Same thing with depression.

I wish to god there was something I could say to you, Scott, that would help in any meaningful way. You surely know much more about medications than I do, so I can't help with any suggestions, and I don't think that would really offer what you need right now, anyway. All I can say is that you make my world better, and I'm grateful to you for it. If you can point me in the right direction, I'll offer all I've got to you. If that helps.

Much affection,
Racer

 

Sorry, that's for SLS (nm)

Posted by Racer on May 10, 2004, at 19:01:24

In reply to Re: Preparing... » judy1, posted by Racer on May 10, 2004, at 16:37:09

 

thank you » SLS

Posted by judy1 on May 10, 2004, at 21:52:22

In reply to Re: Preparing..., posted by SLS on May 10, 2004, at 16:20:53

I really appreciate you taking the time to post, I was/am very worried about you. good luck with your appt.tomorrow, and let us know how it goes.
take care, judy

 

Re: Preparing... » Racer

Posted by SLS on May 11, 2004, at 8:58:52

In reply to Re: Preparing... » judy1, posted by Racer on May 10, 2004, at 16:37:09

Thanks, Racer.

> I wish I could say that I do the same for you -- but, in fact, I don't.

No. Never. :-)

Thanks to your wonderful insights, you have given me a few things to think about that will be very helpful.

For now, I'm just trying to keep myself distracted and not thinking too much about my predicament.


- Scott

 

Re: Preparing...

Posted by SLS on May 11, 2004, at 9:00:09

In reply to Re: Preparing... » Racer, posted by SLS on May 11, 2004, at 8:58:52

Hi All.

Thanks for the support and the warm feelings.


- Scott

 

SLS ... thanks for checking in! =^) (nm)

Posted by finelinebob on May 11, 2004, at 12:29:07

In reply to Re: Preparing..., posted by SLS on May 11, 2004, at 9:00:09

 

Re: Preparing...

Posted by SLS on May 11, 2004, at 13:50:56

In reply to Re: Preparing..., posted by SLS on May 11, 2004, at 9:00:09

I saw my doctor today. He raised my dosage of memantine (Namenda) to 30mg. The target dosage used for Alzheimer's is 20mg, but clinical trials included dosages up to 40mg. I don't think it will work, but it was the logical thing to do.

I am not as despondent today as I was yesterday. I have been trying not to think about things. It really isn't denial, but more like a refusal to attend to things for the sake of survival. The support here helps a lot.


- Scott

 

Re: Preparing... » SLS

Posted by NikkiT2 on May 11, 2004, at 14:53:08

In reply to Re: Preparing..., posted by SLS on May 11, 2004, at 13:50:56

Thansk for the update scott..

And denial isn't always such a bad thing.. avoidance can be helpful in the short term I say.

Do what ever it takes to get you thorugh this rough patch..

Nikki xx

 

feeling a little better » SLS

Posted by judy1 on May 11, 2004, at 15:13:04

In reply to Re: Preparing..., posted by SLS on May 11, 2004, at 13:50:56

I'm really glad today is better than yesterday- for whatever reason. we all have our coping skills, so please do whatever you need to in order to stay safe. please stay in touch Scott and let us continue to support you.
take care, judy

 

Re: feeling a little better

Posted by shar on May 11, 2004, at 16:49:31

In reply to feeling a little better » SLS, posted by judy1 on May 11, 2004, at 15:13:04

SLS,
When I read your initial post, I tried about 3 times to write responses and they were all lame, and I just didn't know what to say. I was in shock. You were the last person I thought would feel so down. You know so much, you're warm and bright. It scared me and I couldn't stand you feeling so bad. I was helpless to do anything positive, and so I just felt paralyzed.

I am so relieved to see that you are feeling better. The one thing is, you can't go via suicide until you are 50 or over. That's the rule.

Please take very good care!
Shar

 

Re: feeling a little better

Posted by finelinebob on May 11, 2004, at 22:52:23

In reply to Re: feeling a little better, posted by shar on May 11, 2004, at 16:49:31

> ...The one thing is, you can't go via suicide until you are 50 or over. That's the rule.

ps. the rule changes when you hit 50. you have to wait until you're 60 or over.

flb

 

nooooooooooooo !!!! (nm) » finelinebob

Posted by shar on May 11, 2004, at 23:53:59

In reply to Re: feeling a little better, posted by finelinebob on May 11, 2004, at 22:52:23

 

Okay ... 50 ... it IS your rule ;^) (nm) » shar

Posted by finelinebob on May 11, 2004, at 23:58:18

In reply to nooooooooooooo !!!! (nm) » finelinebob, posted by shar on May 11, 2004, at 23:53:59

 

Re: Preparing... » SLS

Posted by noa on May 12, 2004, at 20:39:11

In reply to Re: Preparing..., posted by SLS on May 11, 2004, at 13:50:56

Hang in there, Scott.

(I posted a response to you on the main PB page)

I'm not here much this week because of some computer problems. Finally was able to download some patches and updates and then when I checked, MS says I don't have the Sasser virus, but I don't know....my computer suddenly starting having problems and freezing up just when this virus hit hard.

I've backed up my files and am going to see my computer dealer for a clean up, check up and total reinstallation of the software.

So I might be here but sometimes it is a big pain to try to get the windows to work right.

I'll be thinking about you, though. Take care.

 

this age thing!

Posted by NikkiT2 on May 13, 2004, at 7:09:41

In reply to Re: Preparing... » SLS, posted by noa on May 12, 2004, at 20:39:11

OK.. laugh at me all you like.. But I'm having a little 30 crisis *l*

Seriously.. I know its only 30,a nd I *know* 30 is still young these days.. but.. 30 seems, to me, to bring a whole load of responsibility issues with it.. OK, so I mean babies. I want babies, I've been broody for years.. but suddenly, now that this is in the real future I'm totally freaking about it! The fact that this time next year I could well be pregnant.. That I always said I'd have babies at 30 (well, me and hubby said before 30 really, but thats too late now!!).. My mother in law gave me a lecture about how I should have babies before I'm 30 (though as its 6 months away I'm not sure how I can manage that!! But she thought I was a year younger than I am).. How hubby wants two, and both before he is 40 (4 years away)..

And I always said I would give up smokong before my 30th birthday - thats in hand (giving hypnotherapy a bash!).. but.. now I want to rebel against that!!

But.. 30 was always my cut off point - If I wasn't WELL by 30, that was my point. But why is 30 any idfferent to 20??

OK, I'm just rambling (and please, no one tell me I'm just a baby and have years ahead of me.. I *hate* being told that!!)..

Nikki x

 

Re: this age thing! » NikkiT2

Posted by finelinebob on May 13, 2004, at 8:06:02

In reply to this age thing!, posted by NikkiT2 on May 13, 2004, at 7:09:41

I know what you mean about the Crisis @ 30 stuff -- it happened to me. I think for me it was because being 20-something in a lot of ways isn't all that different from being a teenager. Yeah, 30-something means you're supposed to be getting on with your life, and at 29.9 the idea that you have a decade of 30-something stretching out in front of you just doesn't help one bit.

When I was 29.9, a sister of mine who had already hit her mid-40's shared a little relevation with me. When you hit 40, you look back at 30 and wish you could be there. On the other hand, how many 30 yr olds would really want to see 20 again?

For me, living in NYC kinda erased all of those biological clock issues. I mean, walking around, seeing men with gray hair holding infants and knowing that is the guy's child, not grandchild, and not being surprised? There are so many people there, you can find someone at any age starting just about any "life task" regardless of whether it's "appropriate" or not.

just someone's $.02
flb

 

Re: this age thing! » finelinebob

Posted by NikkiT2 on May 13, 2004, at 8:39:51

In reply to Re: this age thing! » NikkiT2, posted by finelinebob on May 13, 2004, at 8:06:02

yeah.. I know you're right with the ay age thing.. I live in Central London.. kinda similar to NYC in that ANYTHING goes really *laughing*

And I can understand my husbands wish to have kids before he is 40.. he wants to be young with them.. and also, I already know we will more than likely have problems in the baby making area so I know its best to start trying as early as possible.. the adoption laws here are kinda antiquated (very hard to adopt once you're over 40) so if we needed to go down that route, we do kinda need to know asap!

And *everyone* tells me their 30's are the best years of their life.. and I can see that, I really can.. I already have so much more confidence and not as hung up on what others will think of me!

I had a 22 crisis aswell (when you're a kid, you want to a be a teen, when a teen you want to be 18, then when 18 you want to be 21, but then suddenly at 22 there was no more ages to look forward to in my eyes!!!) so know this is just a passing thing..

And actually - I wouldn't mind be 20 / 21 again *grins* I had HUGE fun at that age.. left home and bought my own house, discovered freedom and all that kinda thing!! Its just after that that things started getting really bad!! And I'd love to do it again knowing everything I know now *laughing*

Thanks for letting me rant it all out here though.. I've tried talking to others and I just get the p*** taken out of me for it!

Nikki xx

 

Re: this age thing!

Posted by noa on May 14, 2004, at 19:02:04

In reply to Re: this age thing! » finelinebob, posted by NikkiT2 on May 13, 2004, at 8:39:51

My sister in law told me that reaching her 40's felt good because she noticed people in work situations started taking her much more seriously. I think I find that is true, too.

But easy for her to say because she already was doen with having her 3 children. On that front, being in my 40's isn't so great.

But preconceived notions about when things should happen--these hardly ever work out as planned. We like to think we can control Every thing, but of course we can't, so it's good to give up the specific age notions. J will be as youngish as he needs to be with his children no matter what his age.

 

Re: (*g*) just noticed--no pun intended (nm)

Posted by noa on May 14, 2004, at 19:08:55

In reply to Re: this age thing!, posted by noa on May 14, 2004, at 19:02:04

 

Re: Preparing... (lonnnnnnnnnnnnnng) » finelinebob

Posted by SLS on May 16, 2004, at 9:27:05

In reply to Re: Preparing... (lonnnnnnnnnnnnnng), posted by finelinebob on May 10, 2004, at 16:33:05

Please forgive me. I never properly thanked you for posting such a generous offering to me of support and guidence.

Thank you.


- Scott

 

You mean you actually READ all that?! ;^) » SLS

Posted by finelinebob on May 16, 2004, at 10:33:56

In reply to Re: Preparing... (lonnnnnnnnnnnnnng) » finelinebob, posted by SLS on May 16, 2004, at 9:27:05

Well, I figured that IF I wrote something really, really long and IF you really tried to read it all, then maybe you'd wind up falling asleep or forget what was on your mind prior to starting to read it ... knowhutimean?

glad you're doing better =^)
flb

 

I will HAPPILY settle for 50 from you!!! (nm) » finelinebob

Posted by shar on June 12, 2004, at 2:57:03

In reply to Okay ... 50 ... it IS your rule ;^) (nm) » shar, posted by finelinebob on May 11, 2004, at 23:58:18

 

SLS: I will HAPPILY settle for 50 from you!!!

Posted by shar on June 12, 2004, at 3:05:56

In reply to I will HAPPILY settle for 50 from you!!! (nm) » finelinebob, posted by shar on June 12, 2004, at 2:57:03

I haven't been here much due to computer problems. Not a 'guru' like some of us...<grin>....

But, if you ain't 50 yet, well don't plan on going anywhere, ok?

Let me know...?
Shar
P.S. You are so special to me.


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