Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 16921

Shown: posts 1 to 24 of 24. This is the beginning of the thread.

 

difference bet no 'future' and wanting to die?

Posted by jane on December 14, 1999, at 19:16:13

I wanted some feedback from folks on the difference between the "big black hole" where you struggle every minute to not die (been there - this isn't as bad) versus where I am now- I just can't see a future, not tomorrow , next week or anytime. So is this another bout of depression (but less intense) or is it midlife crisis and I should just 'get my act together'.
I "function" day to day because I have responsibilities but I have no plans, joy or happiness.
I am on meds and I thought they were working, but I'm not sure. I also am having trouble with concentration and putting together any complex thought (expressing myself now is a struggle) I don't have a pdoc anymore bec of insurance, so no one has the big picture of all my meds. The idea of re-evaluating my 'chemical cocktail' is overwhelming, but I really would appreciate any input. Thanks

 

Re: difference bet no 'future' and wanting to die?

Posted by Adam on December 14, 1999, at 20:01:01

In reply to difference bet no 'future' and wanting to die?, posted by jane on December 14, 1999, at 19:16:13


I have experienced both the sincere desire to die, and also the less severe but no less important
anhedonia that you describe. I would say both are symptoms of depression. If you are no longer
feeling suicidal, that's probably a sign that your meds are working, but perhaps your depression
isn't in full remission. Please refresh my memory: What are you taking?

I have literally drifted since I got out of college. I had the grades and the work experience to
make me an attractive candidate to at least some medical and gradute schools, but could never get up
the courage or resolve to even take the entrance exams. I would say my depression now is in almost full
remission, and I nowhere near have my act together. It's only been a couple months since I have
felt this way, so it would be a lot to expect at this point that I would get right back on track, I
suppose. I would like to just have fun for a while and see what it is that I need out of life. I mourn
bad decisions, missed opportunities, good things had and lost because I could not appreciate them. I
think we all need some sense of purpose, but having ambitions and pursuing goals are not the means to
happiness, IMO. I am amazed how small things move me these days, how just having a few close friends
and something interesting to do on Friday night can make me as happy as I need to be.

I think you need first and foremost to find a more effective treatment for your depression. Make
that your primary ambition at this point-attack this illness with extreme prejudice. I doubt "getting
your act together" will bring you the joy you are looking for. It is kind of a corny proverb, but
I think the saying "there is no way to happiness, but rather, happiness is the way" has a lot of truth
to it.

> I wanted some feedback from folks on the difference between the "big black hole" where you struggle every minute to not die (been there - this isn't as bad) versus where I am now- I just can't see a future, not tomorrow , next week or anytime. So is this another bout of depression (but less intense) or is it midlife crisis and I should just 'get my act together'.
> I "function" day to day because I have responsibilities but I have no plans, joy or happiness.
> I am on meds and I thought they were working, but I'm not sure. I also am having trouble with concentration and putting together any complex thought (expressing myself now is a struggle) I don't have a pdoc anymore bec of insurance, so no one has the big picture of all my meds. The idea of re-evaluating my 'chemical cocktail' is overwhelming, but I really would appreciate any input. Thanks

 

Re: difference bet no 'future' and wanting to die?

Posted by jane on December 14, 1999, at 20:11:20

In reply to Re: difference bet no 'future' and wanting to die?, posted by Adam on December 14, 1999, at 20:01:01

>
> I have experienced both the sincere desire to die, and also the less severe but no less important
> anhedonia that you describe. I would say both are symptoms of depression. If you are no longer
> feeling suicidal, that's probably a sign that your meds are working, but perhaps your depression
> isn't in full remission. Please refresh my memory: What are you taking?

Adam - you left me in tears - thank you for your kindness - I'll answer soon jane

 

Re: difference bet no 'future' and wanting to die?

Posted by Adam on December 14, 1999, at 21:05:49

In reply to Re: difference bet no 'future' and wanting to die?, posted by jane on December 14, 1999, at 20:11:20

You're welcome jane. I should clarify everything I have said above with the statement
that I don't think it would be a good idea to abandon ambitions or goals at this point
just because you haven't been treated optimally yet. Rather, don't elevate them to the
point that you expect them to have curative powers. Do what you need to do and
prioritise. Joy will come from within. The surest way to find it is to sucessfully
treat your depression. Take care of yourself.

> >
> > I have experienced both the sincere desire to die, and also the less severe but no less important
> > anhedonia that you describe. I would say both are symptoms of depression. If you are no longer
> > feeling suicidal, that's probably a sign that your meds are working, but perhaps your depression
> > isn't in full remission. Please refresh my memory: What are you taking?
>
> Adam - you left me in tears - thank you for your kindness - I'll answer soon jane

 

My Dr calls this "Emotional Constipation"

Posted by Racer on December 14, 1999, at 21:48:50

In reply to difference bet no 'future' and wanting to die?, posted by jane on December 14, 1999, at 19:16:13

and I think that's a good way to describe it!

I got this way on Paxil. I wasn't depressed, really, but I wasn't much of anything besides fat, sleepy, and sluglike. I couldn't feel anything much, but whatever I felt by default was not unpleasant. Just not much of anything.

Don't get me wrong, I didn't feel tranquilized, nor sedated, just ... removed. And I had no hope, beyond existing for a while longer. I had no reason to think of this existance as being a good thing or a bad thing, it just was.

So, yes, I've experienced something that seems similar, and got over it, but that doesn't help you much, does it?

For what it's worth, here's what my doctor and I decided on for me, which works reasonably well: Effexor XR fixes the high anxiety portion of the depression, but not the depression itself. Prozac helps the depression more, but has the nasty side effects that keep me off SSRIs. So, high doses of Effexor XR for the depression and anxiety augmented by very low doses of the Prozac mostly help my depression, and while I have fears and anxieties that seem reasonable to me, and I feel a little less productive than I'd like, I'm doing rather well - compared to where I was when I started all this!

Good luck to you, and here's hoping you find a good fix for the Emotional Constipation. Anyone got a little Spiritual Metamucil? (<<<<

 

Re: difference bet no 'future' and wanting to die?

Posted by jensy on December 15, 1999, at 1:20:20

In reply to difference bet no 'future' and wanting to die?, posted by jane on December 14, 1999, at 19:16:13

jane,

it's funny that those who read and respond to this sort-of thing are often those in the thick of it all. but maybe this is best so you don't get a lot of keep your chin up, kid talk. your description sounds very much like a clinical checklist for depression: ahedonia, hoplessness, helplessness, difficulty concentrating...
i'd suspect that even if your
life reduced to the mudane problems of women's magazines (what to cook for dinner tonite! what shade of nail polish to wear!) that you'd still lack the spark of happiness...and that's depression for you. you could probably live this way forever, being marginally productive and knowing that there has to be something more there, in a way it is more dangerous than the tooth and claw depression simply because of this. you know you can't live the other way for long, but this kinda sneaks up on you--gradually then suddenly. you say that reevaluating your chemical coctail seems overwhelming, but does it seem more overwhelming than living like this indefinately?
i hope you realize that things don't have to, and shouldn't, be this way. if you responded to medication (a good sign!) then perhaps your body has become used to your dosage and it may need to be increased, i do not think that this is uncommon with many antidepressants. no matter how exhausting it may seem, nothing is more exhausting than seeing no future--isn't this what keeps most people going?
i wish you the best of luck in your search, you appear to have a kind heart and obviously have the will and courage to begin a change (or you wouldn't have written).


peace to you,
jensy


I wanted some feedback from folks on the difference between the "big black hole" where you struggle every minute to not die (been there - this isn't as bad) versus where I am now- I just can't see a future, not tomorrow , next week or anytime. So is this another bout of depression (but less intense) or is it midlife crisis and I should just 'get my act together'.
> I "function" day to day because I have responsibilities but I have no plans, joy or happiness.
> I am on meds and I thought they were working, but I'm not sure. I also am having trouble with concentration and putting together any complex thought (expressing myself now is a struggle) I don't have a pdoc anymore bec of insurance, so no one has the big picture of all my meds. The idea of re-evaluating my 'chemical cocktail' is overwhelming, but I really would appreciate any input. Thanks

 

Re: difference bet no 'future' and wanting to die?

Posted by JohnL on December 15, 1999, at 3:51:37

In reply to difference bet no 'future' and wanting to die?, posted by jane on December 14, 1999, at 19:16:13

Hi Jane. You sound like me. And probably thousands of other people battling the beast. I know exactly how you feel. I know it doesn't help much, but you are far from being alone. I do not think your situation has much to do with getting your act together, but that substantial residual depressive symptoms are impeding the ability to get one's act together. Your symptoms sound like textbook depression of the dysthymic melancholic subtype. Able to function, but no spark, no joy.

Not knowing what drugs you take right now, it's worth mentioning that the SSRIs are often disappointing in your kind of depression. I've seen a lot of research studies on TCAs compared to SSRIs in melancholic depression. If the goal is 50% improvement, they are equally effective. However, if the goal is a Hamilton score of 10 or less, the TCAs are 70%-86% effective where the SSRIs are only 10%-30% effective. I believe Effexor is also considered to be more suitable for melancholics than SSRIs. So if your cocktail doesn't have a TCA component, you might want to see a doc about that. Nortriptyline or Desipramine are probably the best choices due to their relatively milder side effects compared to other TCAs. And since you don't have insurance, the TCAs are a lot cheaper as well.

Zoloft according to the literature has the most effect on melancholia compared to other SSRIs due to its 'relatively' stronger action on dopamine. But overall it's hard to find anything more convincing than TCAs for melancholic subtypes. This is all based on the assumption that I am interpreting your symptoms correctly as melancholic dysthymia. You sound exactly like me, and that is my diagnosis. Sometimes I have severe epidsodes, and then it is called double depression. When I read the symptoms of melancholic subtypes, it fits me like a glove. Fits you pretty well too. So in the confusion of messing with the cocktail, I just wanted to put in a vote for the TCAs. They are generally better suited for your symptoms than SSRIs. Correct approach would be TCA alone, TCA agumentation of an SSRI, or Lithium augmentation of SSRI or TCA.

 

Re: difference bet no 'future' and wanting to die?

Posted by dove on December 15, 1999, at 8:59:02

In reply to Re: difference bet no 'future' and wanting to die?, posted by JohnL on December 15, 1999, at 3:51:37

This is a very comforting thread, I am not alone. It is so strange how the meds affect people, many people with the same symptoms, same dx's, but still polar effects. I have just gone thru some sort of prozac-induced double depression/emotional-shutdown/edge of death kinda thing. I felt completely numb except for the negative feelings, which ripped thru me and disabled me from verbalizing anything going on in my head.

I also had my act together for the first time in my life, really, my house was clean, the kids schedules were organized, everything prepared ahead of time. Yet, I felt no joy, no accomplishment, felt worthless even with the so-called "act-togetherness" which I had expected would make me undepressed and my self-worth would increase. No, I felt even worse, enlightening me to the fact that it is in the mind, no outside activity changes, no beautiful facades like a perfect house, is/are going to fix what beats in my heart and brews in my mind.

In some ways this is almost reassuring, I feel less pressure to be perfect, I feel less worthless because I know that goals attained or lost are not the bottom line, the journey is. I can pursue the things that are important but even clutching the prize in my tightly-clenched hand is not going to make everything rosy, it does not fullfill me. This is a real surprise to me. I did not ever believe this until last week. Major break-thru in self-knowledge, hopefully I won't lose sight of it.

I would encourage you to find some way of getting help, I do believe you may be experiencing the pangs of depression, even if you're medicated and not suicidal. The emptiness, the hopelessness, are very dangerous feelings, they lead the way to the real bad feelings. The meds are not working optimally and you should seek help if possible.

I thank you for sharing your questions and giving me the opportunity to think and share. My blessings and gratitude to all.

dove

 

RE: Racer and Effexor

Posted by DC on December 15, 1999, at 16:15:54

In reply to My Dr calls this "Emotional Constipation", posted by Racer on December 14, 1999, at 21:48:50

Dear Racer,

You said:
> Effexor XR fixes the high anxiety portion of the depression, but not the depression itself.

That's very interesting. I always thought that effexor was one of the more stimulating AD's and hence more likely to cause anxiety. It made me anxious when I tried it. But a friend I know with depression and social phobia did very well on it. I wonder if I never got the dosage high enough. I know the Norephinephrine effect only occurs at higher doses. When did you notice the improvement in anxiety?

 

Re: difference bet no 'future' and wanting to die?

Posted by To Dove on December 15, 1999, at 23:05:42

In reply to Re: difference bet no 'future' and wanting to die?, posted by dove on December 15, 1999, at 8:59:02

> This is a very comforting thread, I am not alone. It is so strange how the meds affect people, many people with the same symptoms, same dx's, but still polar effects. I have just gone thru some sort of prozac-induced double depression/emotional-shutdown/edge of death kinda thing. I felt completely numb except for the negative feelings, which ripped thru me and disabled me from verbalizing anything going on in my head.
>
> I also had my act together for the first time in my life, really, my house was clean, the kids schedules were organized, everything prepared ahead of time. Yet, I felt no joy, no accomplishment, felt worthless even with the so-called "act-togetherness" which I had expected would make me undepressed and my self-worth would increase. No, I felt even worse, enlightening me to the fact that it is in the mind, no outside activity changes, no beautiful facades like a perfect house, is/are going to fix what beats in my heart and brews in my mind.
>
> In some ways this is almost reassuring, I feel less pressure to be perfect, I feel less worthless because I know that goals attained or lost are not the bottom line, the journey is. I can pursue the things that are important but even clutching the prize in my tightly-clenched hand is not going to make everything rosy, it does not fullfill me. This is a real surprise to me. I did not ever believe this until last week. Major break-thru in self-knowledge, hopefully I won't lose sight of it.
>
> I would encourage you to find some way of getting help, I do believe you may be experiencing the pangs of depression, even if you're medicated and not suicidal. The emptiness, the hopelessness, are very dangerous feelings, they lead the way to the real bad feelings. The meds are not working optimally and you should seek help if possible.
>
> I thank you for sharing your questions and giving me the opportunity to think and share. My blessings and gratitude to all.
>
> dove

Dove,
You are so elequant. The way you described your feelings and their relationship to your accomplishments was enlightening. I often fool mmyself into thinking, "If only... then I would be happy." I was fat. I got thin. Thin is better! Am I now happy with who I am and the life I live? No.
My quest for an ADD cure led me to a self diagnosis of dysthemic disorder, after taking many depression surveys, and repeatedly honestly reassuring my psychiatrist that he was confused, I didn't feel depressed. I didn't understand then that a general feeling of not being good enough, constantly worrying about otheres impressions of me, not working up to my potential because of lack of confidence and fear of failure(along with perfectionistic, all or nothing attitudes about success and failure) were indeed signs of depression. I didn't feel suicidal. I didn't consider the different ways of interpretating "hopelessness".

When I first tried Wellbutrin(my first AD), I thought besides my ADD symptoms still going strong, that my probemems were over. My husband no longer irritated the @*#! out of me, like one of our fellow posters here I was hornier than ever after being totally uninterested in sex for over a decade, and my ADD didn't upset me any longer. It didn't last. I feel worse than ever. The few weeks of masturbating, constantly fantasizing, and wearing my happy husband down to a nub(Just kidding about that one;) ), were shortlived. That fact depresses me more. Now I know some of what I'm missing. Right now I'm on 75 effexorXR, 150 Wellbutrin SR, both once a day; and ADDerall 10 mg twice a day. I'm afraid that none of it it enough dosage to do a darn thing for me! I used to be on 30 mg of ADDerall twice a day, and !%) Wellbutrin SR twice a day, but those didn't help my ADD much. He lowered my ADDerall when my blood pressure went up from the Effexor. I had a two week combination migraine/sius headache with a sinus infection after going on Effexor. I have a hard time getting in to see my psychiatrist. When he didn't call me back for four days after I called about my elevated blood pressure I started thoinking maybe it's time to see if my insuance and primary care physician can help me find a better psychiatrist. I keep putting offf either exploring this or just going ahead and trying to see the one I have.
Please erxcuse my relentless rambling, but I know you all understand what no one else can. Thank you for being here, and thanks , DR. Bob, for providing this outlet for feelings, sharing of concerns, opportunity to learn from eachother's REAL experiences, and celebrations of small and large victories.

 

Re: difference bet no 'future' and wanting to die?

Posted by Noa on December 16, 1999, at 20:04:54

In reply to Re: difference bet no 'future' and wanting to die?, posted by To Dove on December 15, 1999, at 23:18:07

I don't know if we are all talking about the same type of experience, but I'll throw my two cents in anyway.

Sometimes I go into that numb mode, too. Kind of a robotic existence, with feelings very remote. But it is precarious, and the threat of the intense depressive emotions looms in the corners.

The other thing is that my most recent bout of depression was very severe, and while in it I couldn't imagine a future, but I also wasn't caught in the obsessively suicidal loop that has accompanied other serious bouts, like the one I had this summer. While in those intense loops, I am obsessed with the meaningless of life, any life, but especially mine, and feel intense dread about confronting any new experinces, feel totally unable to face life, but unable to withdraw, either, stuck and unable to escape the intense pain. That is what leads, I think to the conclusion that ending my life would help. But in my most recent bout of depression, the anxiety component, with the obsessive loop about life having no meaning, was absent. Instead, what I experienced was a kind of shut down. Unable to cope with anything, just wanting to withdraw. I would have survived a while just sleeping, I think. And unlike my usual pattern, in this bout, I didn't care about anything, not even eating. Everything slowed down, my thinking, my actions, everything. And I could not imagine a future, but I wasn't particularly suicidal.

This was a departure from the usual pattern of my major depressive episodes, which have always had some suicidal component, which can range from vague and not a real threat to extremely intense and an imminent threat.

Anyway, Dove, I had another thought about what you wrote. It sounds to me like you get partial relief from your depression and you then summon any energy you can find, which, if you are like me, is an extremely limited resource at that stage of the game, to fulfilling the humdrum duties associated with your role as wife and mother, because these are the things associated with day to day "functioning". But the laundry and the vacuuming aren't the things that I can imagine you would find fullfilling. And with just a partial response to ADs, you are not at the point where you can start feeling interested in fostering sources of joy for yourself, either in your relationships or in new endeavors. So you are in limbo.

Perhaps I am off the mark, but these are my impressions.

I agree with others who say you need more relief of your depression. I also think it might help to start thinking about what would possibly bring you some joy, what you remember giving you joy in the past. Think in a brainstorming kind of way, no editing, no limitations based on reality. Just suppose. Suppose away. This might give you a sense of what you can focus more energy on, instead of only focusing it on chores.

My problem is different. When I start to feel better from depression, I start to get interested in anything and everything. My mind starts to go in all different directions. I get ideas of things I would like to do. But inevitably, these ideas either get nipped in the bud because I realize I can't follow through on them, or I commit to something that I can't complete and end up getting overwhelmed, anxious, guilty, ashamed and depressed. Perhaps this is my form of "hypomania" even though by comparison to what is usually consider hypomania, it pales.

Where I am now is feeling a bit better, but extremely fearful of backsliding. I have developed a phobia of my depression. I feel panicky and become hypervigilant about any "sign" that I might be slipping. Then if I do see a "sign", I become panicky and judgmental toward myself. This happened this morning, when I was grumpy about a trivial parking situation at work. I found myself talking my grumpiness as one of those signs, and felt doomed to have a lousy day, and likely to be slipping back into increased depression. I know I need to change this attitude, but my dread of my depression is too intense for me to let go. I am afraid I don't have the resources to cope with yet another episode, that I have run out of fuel and simply won't survive another major episode. My therapist reminds me that I don't have to muster the resources to battle an episode if it happens, that there are resources outside of myself that I can rely on, such as taking time off from work, getting more treatment services or hospitalization. As it turned out today, I was able to be distracted from my grumpiness within about 15 minutes, and ended up having the best day I have had in a while, nothing spectacular, but definitely an improvement over the past few weeks.

Right now I am in touch with how angry I am about/at my depression, and grieving the life I might have had without the depression. I have not focused on this much before. Sometimes I look at people who are not depressed and I can't imagine what it is like to be able to go about one's life without being bogged down by the depression or fear of the depression returning, to pursue one's goals and interests, to have energy and optimism.

Sorry to go on so long, but it is therapeutic to write this. It is also therapeutic to read what others write. Thanks.

 

Re: RE: Racer and Effexor

Posted by Racer on December 17, 1999, at 4:17:09

In reply to RE: Racer and Effexor, posted by DC on December 15, 1999, at 16:15:54

> > Effexor XR fixes the high anxiety portion of the depression, but not the depression itself.
>
> That's very interesting. I always thought that effexor was one of the more stimulating AD's and hence more likely to cause anxiety. It made me anxious when I tried it. But a friend I know with depression and social phobia did very well on it. I wonder if I never got the dosage high enough. I know the Norephinephrine effect only occurs at higher doses. When did you notice the improvement in anxiety?

Ack! I'm sorry, I used a generalization. I should have said that the Effexor XR worked for the anxiety portion of MY depression. One more of those "we all react differently" things.

As for your question: the anxiety effects happened literally right away. From the first dose I was MUCH calmer and better able to rest. Of course, for the first three days I was on it, I didn't sleep AT ALL. I lay in bed and rested, but didn't sleep at all at all. Not as in, "gee, seems like I didn't sleep a wink last night", but as in literally lay in bed and did not sleep, did not doze, did not drift along. Just lay there calmly fast awake. That was at 37.5 mg. Now I take 225 mg.

As for the anxiety, it's been totally gone since I've been on this. I moved to Effexor from Serzone, though, which was dreadful for me. It lowered my blood pressure, and increased my anxiety a huge amount. I couldn't keep food down, and could hardly walk across the room without falling over because my BP was somewhere around 80/50 or something ridiculous like that.

Here's a caveat, though: the Effexor is lowering my blood sugar, which lowers my energy and my lack of anxiety may be related to that. I'm living in the 40s most of the time, when normal is about 100. That's mg/Dl for those of you who like to know that sort of detail. Anyway, since my blood sugar is so very low, I can't say that this is a great solution, but at least it keeps me mostly functional.

Good luck.

 

Re: difference bet no 'future' and wanting to die?

Posted by Kev on December 17, 1999, at 14:37:55

In reply to difference bet no 'future' and wanting to die?, posted by jane on December 14, 1999, at 19:16:13

Here's a variation on this theme: Since my brain went completely off-line, I don't have a future (i am a Ph.D candidate and have been rendered completely incapable of doing what it takes to get my degree and build my career), but dying is not a viable option (it would destroy my family). The overall effect is like being on a dead-end street with a no-U-turn-sign (sorry if this is all kind of incoherent or irrelevant...stupid Effexor withdrawal...)

-Kev

 

Re: difference bet no 'future' and wanting to die?

Posted by Noa on December 17, 1999, at 19:09:40

In reply to Re: difference bet no 'future' and wanting to die?, posted by Kev on December 17, 1999, at 14:37:55

Kev, you are withdrawing from effexor. What else are you taking, or what are you planning to try next?

Evaluating/drawing conclusions about your life is not a good thing to do when you are depressed. I know I know, easier said than done. I TRY to tell myself this when I am depressed, but it is when I am depressed that the existential questions seem most important.

But keep exploring a med combo that will work, and then you can begin to develop plans to rebuild your life.

Geez why do I sound so pollyannaish? I guess I really am starting to feel better. Or maybe I am trying to convince myself. The truth is, I have also been grieving a lot lately about how damn bogged down my life has been from this disease, how much it has dampened my potential, my goals and dreams. It pisses me off.

It is a lousy place to be, what you describe. I hope connecting with all the wise people here (I really am impressed with the smarts on this board) will help. I have found a lot of incredible information and support here.

Stay in touch.

 

Re: difference bet no 'future' and wanting to die?

Posted by Peter on December 17, 1999, at 21:55:22

In reply to Re: difference bet no 'future' and wanting to die?, posted by Kev on December 17, 1999, at 14:37:55

Hey Kev
I feel like I'm in exactly the same boat. I dropped out of my Ph.D. program this summer because I just could not find the emotional energy to deal with my dissertation. I have been dealing with depression since I was little and I thought I had licked it by going to therapy, meditating, etc. When I look back on my decision to go back to school, I really think I was delusional! Anyway after starting school, the depression really hit me and I have spent the last 3 years trying every drug under the sun in many combinations and hoping that something would work. I got through my classes and did well academically but the dissertation killed me; I just could not go on. So where does that leave me now? Without a career and without the energy to pursue something new.
Right now I'm taking clomipramine and just praying that it will work but today I have been feeling the same fatigue that I felt on all of the SSRIs. The frustrating thing is that a drug would seem to work for maybe 1 or 2 days and then I would lose the effect. I am beyond tired of this process. Anyway I wish you all the best and if it's any comfort, there are others in similar situations. Peter

 

Fighting suicidal urges

Posted by Kev on December 18, 1999, at 9:34:15

In reply to Re: difference bet no 'future' and wanting to die?, posted by Peter on December 17, 1999, at 21:55:22

It appears-unsurprisingly, given the topic of this Forum- that quite a few people are or have been seriously suicidal. So I just thought I'd share the following practical tip on how not to go through with it: Bear in mind that a loved one is going to have to come down to the morgue and identify the body. Try to picture that scenario in your mind. I believe that, while many suicides do care a great deal about the impact that their death will have on their families, etc., they think mostly in terms of a long-term impact (and thus come up with things like "They'll get along without me"), but fail to take into account the immediate emotional devastation that their act will precipitate. I once saw a picture of a guy who had blown his own head off with a shotgun, and was thinking about how I'd be hating life if that was one of my relatives or friends and I had to see the corpse. Sometimes my thoughts tend to wander towards the contents of my gun cabinet, but then I think about that and it passes.

 

Re: Fighting suicidal urges

Posted by Noa on December 18, 1999, at 10:01:14

In reply to Fighting suicidal urges, posted by Kev on December 18, 1999, at 9:34:15

Kev,

The thought of the impact of my suicide on my family and close friends has always been what has kept me from carrying anything out. When I have been suicidal, a lot of my thought energy has gone toward trying to figure out the "lowest impact" plan, but I always come back to realizing there isn't any. But I knew I had reached an all-time low and was in serious trouble this summer when I started to focus my energy on figuring out how to somehow convince the folks I care about that my suicide was the right decision. I actually believed it could be done, if I just worked at figuring it out. I also wanted the plan to include a way to plan ahead for making arrangements of various kinds, so that family would not have to do that. The other scary thing about that episode was that I had decided to not talk about my plans to my therapist because I knew that would sabotage the plans. That had never happened before. I ended up telling him, but at the end of a therapy session, because I had been struggling throughout the session with the dilemma. The conflict was my suicidal goal vs. my extreme discomfort with being dishonest with my therapist. I think I scared him, too. He basically set up some firm limits for me that I needed at the time, including a verbal contract that I would work toward life, not death, that I never hold something like that until the end of a session again. He said he needed some safeguards if we were going to work together on a 2x/week outpatient basis, he couldn't provide what I might need, that maybe a hospital or day treatment program could. This structure really helped me. That was when I revisited the medication cocktail, had my therapist and pdoc talk, and decided to suspend my suicidal planning, not because I had any more hope for the future, but because I put myself in the "hands" of my contract with my therapist. It is interesting to me how added structure from outside oneself can get me to put aside something as powerful as extreme suicidal urges.

 

Why is suicide so bad?

Posted by Kathy on December 24, 1999, at 15:29:11

In reply to Re: Fighting suicidal urges, posted by Noa on December 18, 1999, at 10:01:14

Most people don't get better. Why should I live to protect other people?

 

Re: Why is suicide so bad?

Posted by Bob (doncha just LOVE the holiday season?) on December 24, 1999, at 19:34:22

In reply to Why is suicide so bad?, posted by Kathy on December 24, 1999, at 15:29:11

> Most people don't get better. Why should I live to protect other people?

Well, since you asked, I say you shouldn't. Unless you've accepted responsibility for someone truly helpless, let them protect themselves.

I spent a looooonnnng time, actually grew up believing it my Purpose, trying to protect people who were beyond my help. Once I realized what a failure I was at it, I found I had no reason to live for myself. That's when I tried to kill myself.

And failed, obviously.

Of course, the bad thing about suicide is that, as far as any of us knows, it's terribly permanent. I mean, I'm sitting here with about ten "Millenium Lotto" lines on tickets next to me, the jackpot's up to$90M and still climbing, and I could go off myself because its freakin' Christmas (yes, with my family history, that's reason enough!). My luck, one of those numbers would win it all.

(Then again, since there's only about a 0.01% chance that I'd off myself in the next week, I probably haven't got a shot. grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr)

Maybe this notion of "not hurting your loved ones" is the last dirty little trick that Spark of Hope humans seem to be blessed/cursed with has. It's the ace in the hole created by some perverse deal between the subconscious mind and the instinct for self-survival.

You know, Noa, that's what my personal DLT has morphed into. I'd feel fine leaving my family behind, but I can't face the dishonesty of lying to my therapist about suicide. Happened last August ... told her how I was feeling, and that kinda did the whole plot in. Developed my own theory on defeating this instinctual Hope, tho.

And no, I'm not about to go telling anyone what it is right now, given the season and given that if I start trying to convince you, I may just wind up convincing myself. So don't ask.

Anyway, getting back to the question ... I think you're asking for only half the story. What's so good about it? Answer both questions fairly and completely ... by then, you'll probably be too tired to try anything or you may even forget what you were asking about in the first place. Confusing yourself completely can be the best AD there is.

Last point...back to what Dove said a few posts ago. You reminded me of a quote from a book that scares the hell out of me -- Pirsig's Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance:

"Mountains should be climbed with as little effort as possible and without desire. The reality of your own nature should determine the speed. If you become restless, speed up. If you become winded, slow down. You climb the mountain in an equilibrium between restlessness and exhaustion. Then, when you're no longer thinking ahead, each footstep isn't just a means to an end but a unique event in itself. This leaf has jagged edges. This rock looks loose. From this place the snow is less visible, even though closer. These are things you should notice anyway. To live only for some future goal is shallow. It's the sides of the mountain which sustain life, not the top. Here's where things grow.

"But of course, without the top you can't have any sides. It's the top that defines the sides. So on we go ... we have a long way ... no hurry ... just one step after the next ..."

My dreams died a long time ago, and nearly took me with them, and I guess I've been wandering around the mountainside for quite some time now. I still don't have a reason to live FOR ME, and I don't buy into that living for others line anymore. Maybe someday I'll have the energy or the courage to dream again and find that reason, maybe I won't. But until then, when I can get myself to notice the view, the sights and sounds and smells and feels and tastes and vibes can be pretty spectacular.

And Kathy, that's why suicide is so bad for me right now.

Knowhutimean?
Bob

 

Re: difference bet no 'future' and wanting to die?

Posted by Joanne on December 26, 1999, at 16:37:51

In reply to difference bet no 'future' and wanting to die?, posted by jane on December 14, 1999, at 19:16:13

> I wanted some feedback from folks on the difference between the "big black hole" where you struggle every minute to not die (been there - this isn't as bad) versus where I am now- I just can't see a future, not tomorrow , next week or anytime. So is this another bout of depression (but less intense) or is it midlife crisis and I should just 'get my act together'.
> I "function" day to day because I have responsibilities but I have no plans, joy or happiness.
> I am on meds and I thought they were working, but I'm not sure. I also am having trouble with concentration and putting together any complex thought (expressing myself now is a struggle) I don't have a pdoc anymore bec of insurance, so no one has the big picture of all my meds. The idea of re-evaluating my 'chemical cocktail' is overwhelming, but I really would appreciate any input. Thanks
Hi Jane,
Like you, I am so thankful not to be in that
"black hole" place. However, I know that where you are now is not "living" either. I've found that since I've been rescued from the "every moment I'm on the brink of death or insanity and every conscious moment is sheer pain and torment" place, and I'm somewhat stabilized mentally, psychotherapy has helped me tremendously. It took me five therapists to find the one for me, but it was well worth it. Because of the miracle of anti-depressant medication, I was able to function enough to do what was necessary to find a good therapist. My therapist, whom I used to see one a week (now it's about once a month) has made a HUGE difference in the quality of life and sense of "aliveness" that I'm able to experience again. As everyone knows, it's not all smooth sailing, and it's not a magic cure. However, for myself, therapy has made the difference between going through the motions of life and really acually feeling alive and there. Sorry about my grammar. I'm rushing and have to go. Good Luck. Joanne

 

Difference... thanx Jane. JohnL?

Posted by Dee on December 27, 1999, at 10:14:34

In reply to difference bet no 'future' and wanting to die?, posted by jane on December 14, 1999, at 19:16:13

Thank you Jane. You described exactly what I was feeling, and pointed out where I ought to head next in my recovery.

This is one of the reasons this site is priceless: If I can not form the exact words to express how I feel, all I have to do is look around because there is always someone wheo has been there, and gives me the words.
I really thought for a while that I was 'cured' as the wanting-to-die feelings subseeded, and was already accepting a long, dull, joyless life, just grateful that the intense pain is not present.
Now it seems there might be more to this. Also, now I know what to tell my doc when I see him next time instead of 'everything is fine'.

JohnL, thank you for the information. My doc is planning to take me off Serzone and start SSRIs, and I've been against the idea. Mainly because of the sexual side effects (Just in case I ever might get interested in sex again). I don't think I've ever heard of the TCAs, new as I am to all this. What are they?
What kind of side efects? Where can I find more information on them?

Thanx
Dee

 

Re: Fighting suicidal urges

Posted by Scott L. Schofield on December 27, 1999, at 17:50:57

In reply to Re: Fighting suicidal urges, posted by Noa on December 18, 1999, at 10:01:14


> The thought of the impact of my suicide on my family and close friends has always been what has kept me from carrying anything out.

This rationale has also helped to influence me a few times.

I find that the most powerful motivation for me to continue living is fear. I am not so much afraid of entering death as I am of leaving life.


- Scott

 

Re: Why is suicide so bad?

Posted by juniper on December 28, 1999, at 0:53:41

In reply to Why is suicide so bad?, posted by Kathy on December 24, 1999, at 15:29:11

your comment that most people don't get better is pessimistic and scientifically unsound--in fact, most people do get better. but it can be a long road, or a high mountain...(a friend of mine once asked, which weighs more, the mountain or what you carry over it?)

living your life to protect others is no life to live, but your life will always inherently affect others, and it is up to you as to how your life affects them.
it is sad to wake up one day, do the math, and realize that you have been living in pain for half your life. i've had the inclination, and the plan, but, as bob said, suicide, to my knowledge, is awfully permanent. and as permanent as my mental state as seemed, i have had moments and days of joy. slowly, i've gone from living mostly for other people to living mostly for myself.

it happens.


peace in your struggle to find peace.


> Most people don't get better. Why should I live to protect other people?

 

Re: Difference... thanx Jane. JohnL?

Posted by Noa on December 29, 1999, at 13:34:10

In reply to Difference... thanx Jane. JohnL?, posted by Dee on December 27, 1999, at 10:14:34

Dee, Serzone and SSRIs are not the only choices. I don't know what else you have tried, tho.

I am sorry you are feeling blue, and am think of you.


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