Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 17253

Shown: posts 1 to 8 of 8. This is the beginning of the thread.

 

5-HTP lowers dopamine and norepinephrine

Posted by andrewb on December 21, 1999, at 14:10:51

Here is a quote out of a book I read recently;
“In the early 1970s, Herman van Praag, M.D., and colleagues discovered that about one out of five patients who responded well to 5-HTP tended to relapse after one month of treatment. The antidepressant effects of 5-HTP in these subjects began to wear off gradually after the first month despite the fact that the level of 5-HTP in their blood, and presumably the level of serotonin in the brain, remained at the same level as when they were experiencing a benefit. These researchers discovered that, while serotonin levels appeared to stay at the same levels after one month of treatment, the levels of the other important monoamine neurotransmitters, dopamine and norepinephrine, declined. These patients responded to supplemental tyrosine.” (Tyrosine is a precursor to dopamine and norepinephrine.)
Does this research sound right? If it is, does this same mechanism of 5-HTP ‘poop-out’ explain SSRI ‘poop-out’. Would then tyrosine help with SSRI poop-out. Would SSRI poop out also respond to augmentation with a NARI (norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor) such as reboxetine and a dopamine enhancing agent such as amisulpride or pramipexole (Mirapex). Does this research help explain the sometimes effectiveness, where SSRIs have failed, of older antidepressants (i.e. parnate) which act not only on serotonin but also norepinephrine and dopamine.

 

Re: 5-HTP lowers dopamine and norepinephrine

Posted by Noa on December 21, 1999, at 15:56:08

In reply to 5-HTP lowers dopamine and norepinephrine, posted by andrewb on December 21, 1999, at 14:10:51

Tyrosine is an amino acid, right? In what foods does in naturally occur, that is, in a form that is useful to us?

 

Re: 5-HTP lowers dopamine and norepinephrine

Posted by JohnL on December 21, 1999, at 18:16:28

In reply to 5-HTP lowers dopamine and norepinephrine, posted by andrewb on December 21, 1999, at 14:10:51

> Here is a quote out of a book I read recently;
> “In the early 1970s, Herman van Praag, M.D., and colleagues discovered that about one out of five patients who responded well to 5-HTP tended to relapse after one month of treatment. The antidepressant effects of 5-HTP in these subjects began to wear off gradually after the first month despite the fact that the level of 5-HTP in their blood, and presumably the level of serotonin in the brain, remained at the same level as when they were experiencing a benefit. These researchers discovered that, while serotonin levels appeared to stay at the same levels after one month of treatment, the levels of the other important monoamine neurotransmitters, dopamine and norepinephrine, declined. These patients responded to supplemental tyrosine.” (Tyrosine is a precursor to dopamine and norepinephrine.)
> Does this research sound right? If it is, does this same mechanism of 5-HTP ‘poop-out’ explain SSRI ‘poop-out’. Would then tyrosine help with SSRI poop-out. Would SSRI poop out also respond to augmentation with a NARI (norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor) such as reboxetine and a dopamine enhancing agent such as amisulpride or pramipexole (Mirapex). Does this research help explain the sometimes effectiveness, where SSRIs have failed, of older antidepressants (i.e. parnate) which act not only on serotonin but also norepinephrine and dopamine.

Answers to your questions....yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, on and on. Actually the NE depletion and dompamine depletion theories are why some pdocs add dopamine agonists to SSRIs, or tricyclics to SSRIs. In Dr Bob's Tips there are some discussions on this topic. I mean, it's all just theory. But it does kinda make sense, yeah? Maybe that's partially why those old tricyclics can still kick butt in severe depression where SSRIs alone might not quite do it. And if an SSRI alone is good enough, but later poops out, adding a dopamine or NE drug restores effectiveness in many cases. Seems like a reasonable theory to me.

I remember reading about a guy who had been on Zoloft for quite some time, but then it pooped out. He augmented it with Tyrosine and got a robust response. But that too pooped out in 10 months. Uhh ohh. Now what? :) JohnL

 

Re: 5-HTP lowers dopamine and norepinephrine

Posted by Bruce on December 22, 1999, at 6:45:44

In reply to Re: 5-HTP lowers dopamine and norepinephrine, posted by Noa on December 21, 1999, at 15:56:08

> Tyrosine is an amino acid, right? In what foods does in naturally occur, that is, in a form that is useful to us?


Hello, Noa!

L-Tyrosine occurs with just about any complete protein food (meat/fish/dairy). Supplements are available at health food stores, and should be taken on an empty stomach and well before your next meal so as not to offer other aminos that might compete with absorption of L-Tyrosine into the brain.

Bruce

 

Re: 5-HTP, Noa

Posted by Diane on December 22, 1999, at 10:32:03

In reply to Re: 5-HTP lowers dopamine and norepinephrine, posted by Noa on December 21, 1999, at 15:56:08

> Tyrosine is an amino acid, right? In what foods does in naturally occur, that is, in a form that is useful to us?

Some info:

http://www.smartbasic.com/glos.aminos/tyrosine.glos.html

 

Re: 5-HTP lowers dopamine and norepinephrine

Posted by Scott L. Schofield on December 28, 1999, at 18:02:14

In reply to 5-HTP lowers dopamine and norepinephrine, posted by andrewb on December 21, 1999, at 14:10:51

> Would SSRI poop out also respond to augmentation with a NARI (norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor) such as reboxetine and a dopamine enhancing agent such as amisulpride or pramipexole (Mirapex).

I have heard of many cases in which the addition of bupropion (Wellbutrin) to an ongoing treatment with an SSRI (mainly Zoloft) has lead to a more robust antidepressant response. However, I don’t recall specifically reading about the addition of bupropion after the SSRI has already pooped-out.

Has anyone had success with the addition of another antidepressant after the SSRI has pooped-out?


- Scott

 

Re: 5-HTP lowers dopamine and norepinephrine

Posted by CindyW on December 29, 1999, at 10:57:36

In reply to 5-HTP lowers dopamine and norepinephrine, posted by andrewb on December 21, 1999, at 14:10:51

> Here is a quote out of a book I read recently;
> “In the early 1970s, Herman van Praag, M.D., and colleagues discovered that about one out of five patients who responded well to 5-HTP tended to relapse after one month of treatment. The antidepressant effects of 5-HTP in these subjects began to wear off gradually after the first month despite the fact that the level of 5-HTP in their blood, and presumably the level of serotonin in the brain, remained at the same level as when they were experiencing a benefit. These researchers discovered that, while serotonin levels appeared to stay at the same levels after one month of treatment, the levels of the other important monoamine neurotransmitters, dopamine and norepinephrine, declined. These patients responded to supplemental tyrosine.” (Tyrosine is a precursor to dopamine and norepinephrine.)
> Does this research sound right? If it is, does this same mechanism of 5-HTP ‘poop-out’ explain SSRI ‘poop-out’. Would then tyrosine help with SSRI poop-out. Would SSRI poop out also respond to augmentation with a NARI (norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor) such as reboxetine and a dopamine enhancing agent such as amisulpride or pramipexole (Mirapex). Does this research help explain the sometimes effectiveness, where SSRIs have failed, of older antidepressants (i.e. parnate) which act not only on serotonin but also norepinephrine and dopamine.

Effexor XR supposedly affects serotonin, norepinephrine, and dopamine. Is this why it works without 'poop-out'? It also seems to have fewer sexual side effects than just plain SSRI's. I have read that serotonin decreases sexual functioning, while dopamine increases it. Maybe selective reuptake inhibitors are not as effective as those that take into the account of the interaction and feedback effect of one neurotransmitter on another?--Cindy W

 

Re: 5-HTP lowers dopamine and norepinephrine

Posted by Scott L. Schofield on December 30, 1999, at 20:47:10

In reply to 5-HTP lowers dopamine and norepinephrine, posted by andrewb on December 21, 1999, at 14:10:51

> Here is a quote out of a book I read recently;
> “In the early 1970s, Herman van Praag, M.D., and colleagues discovered that about one out of five patients who responded well to 5-HTP tended to relapse after one month of treatment. The antidepressant effects of 5-HTP in these subjects began to wear off gradually after the first month despite the fact that the level of 5-HTP in their blood, and presumably the level of serotonin in the brain, remained at the same level as when they were experiencing a benefit.

In the early to mid 80’s, some studies were conducted involving tryptophan-depletion. Patients who were taking non-SSRI antidepressants and who were in remission were fed a diet of food lacking tryptophan (the precursor of 5-HTP; 5-HTP being the precursor of serotonin). While continuing with their antidepressants, a number of these people became depressed again. When tryptophan was added back into their diets, their depressions lifted.


- Scott


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