Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 16735

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Re: INSOMNIA

Posted by S. Suggs on December 13, 1999, at 21:33:17

In reply to Re: INSOMNIA, posted by mary on December 13, 1999, at 13:36:51

Mary: Have you considered the TCA's, ie. Nortriptyline (Pamelor). Great for sleep, but not too sedating. There were several post touching on this drug. Good luck and Blessings,

S. Suggs

 

Re: INSOMNIA

Posted by Joanne on December 14, 1999, at 6:41:13

In reply to Re: INSOMNIA, posted by JohnL on December 13, 1999, at 12:36:22

> Hi Joanne,
>
> I think I've tried most everything out there for insomnia. Such as tricyclics, benzos, Remeron, Serzone, Trazodone. Of them all I personally have to say I like the tricyclics best. Even though they all put me to sleep and pretty much kept me asleep, the tricyclics gave me that feeling in the morning like I had really slept well. The others seem to give a strange kind of sleep for me.
>
> Tricyclics for me are smooth. And it seems like a high quality kind of sleep, not a drugged kind of false sleep that I get from everything else. I take one of the less sedating ones, called Nortriptyline, and it's just right. There are more sedating ones. And you won't need much more than a low dose which shouldn't affect you during the day. Since they come on a little slower and more subtle than other drugs, I dose anywhere from 3:00 to 5:00 in the afternoon. That way it's kicking in strongest just about bedtime. Any later messes with the next morning. I've seen the tricyclics, especially Nortriptyline, combined with Wellbutrin for refractory depression as well. Based on my experience, I'm putting a vote in here for a tricyclic for insomnia. Imipramine, Anafranil, and Amitriptyline are the more sedating ones, while Nortriptyline is a bit more mild. So before you see your doctor, sleep on it. :) JohnL

Not to be repetitive, but just want to thank everyone again for all the helpful info. Note to JohnL, I think I'm definitely going to ask my doctor about trying the nortryptyline. After spending endless sleepless hours exploring this site (I'm so glad I "stumbled into" this gem!) I noticed a lot of positive info regarding this trycyclic, and enjoyed reading your posts about it. Can't wait to see my doc Thurs. Another "Thank you" to everyone. Joanne

 

Re: INSOMNIA

Posted by S. Suggs on December 14, 1999, at 7:16:03

In reply to Re: INSOMNIA , posted by Joanne on December 14, 1999, at 6:41:13

Joanne: Something I read (if correct) that I found interesting was that nortriptyline was a first pass metabolite of amitriptyline. I really think you will enjoy the benefits over amitriptyline. Good luck,keep us informed and of course, Blessings

S. Suggs

 

Re: INSOMNIA

Posted by mary on December 14, 1999, at 21:28:05

In reply to Re: INSOMNIA, posted by S. Suggs on December 13, 1999, at 21:33:17

> Mary: Have you considered the TCA's, ie. Nortriptyline (Pamelor). Great for sleep, but not too sedating. There were several post touching on this drug. Good luck and Blessings,
>
> S. Suggs

Started back on the 37.5 Effexor XR today... and my doctor prescribed
Ambien for 30 days for the sleep problems. We'll see. Also am setting
up appointments with a sleep clinic.... as my husband is quite sure that
I have sleep apnea. Mary

 

Re: INSOMNIA

Posted by Andy on December 15, 1999, at 12:57:20

In reply to Re: INSOMNIA, posted by mary on December 14, 1999, at 21:28:05

I'm surprised so few of you mention Ambien. I think it's terrific

> > Mary: Have you considered the TCA's, ie. Nortriptyline (Pamelor). Great for sleep, but not too sedating. There were several post touching on this drug. Good luck and Blessings,
> >
> > S. Suggs
>
> Started back on the 37.5 Effexor XR today... and my doctor prescribed
> Ambien for 30 days for the sleep problems. We'll see. Also am setting
> up appointments with a sleep clinic.... as my husband is quite sure that
> I have sleep apnea. Mary

 

Re: INSOMNIA

Posted by S. Suggs on December 15, 1999, at 22:54:40

In reply to Re: INSOMNIA, posted by Andy on December 15, 1999, at 12:57:20

Andy: From what I understand, Ambien is a great drug, but (please correct me if I a wrong)it's for short term use, whereas nortriptyline can be used for extended periods of time.

Blessings,

S. Suggs

 

Re: INSOMNIA

Posted by Elizabeth on December 15, 1999, at 23:27:25

In reply to Re: INSOMNIA, posted by S. Suggs on December 15, 1999, at 22:54:40

> Andy: From what I understand, Ambien is a great drug, but (please correct me if I a wrong)it's for short term use, whereas nortriptyline can be used for extended periods of time.

I asked my pdoc about this when he prescribed Ambien to use for insomnia daily. He replied that many people are able to take it longer term without developing tolerance. He also said that in his experience it actually works better if you take it every day than sporadically - perhaps this is because it keeps you on a regular sleep schedule (something that's always been a problem for me).

I took it - 20mg/night - for a year or so, pretty much every night, without tolerance. My main peeve about it is that it's too short-acting.

BTW, nortriptyline was not sedating for me, and it had anticholinergic effects that I had trouble tolerating, even at very low doses.

 

Re: INSOMNIA

Posted by Joanne on December 16, 1999, at 10:05:16

In reply to Re: INSOMNIA, posted by Elizabeth on December 15, 1999, at 23:27:25

> > Andy: From what I understand, Ambien is a great drug, but (please correct me if I a wrong)it's for short term use, whereas nortriptyline can be used for extended periods of time.
>
> I asked my pdoc about this when he prescribed Ambien to use for insomnia daily. He replied that many people are able to take it longer term without developing tolerance. He also said that in his experience it actually works better if you take it every day than sporadically - perhaps this is because it keeps you on a regular sleep schedule (something that's always been a problem for me).
>
> I took it - 20mg/night - for a year or so, pretty much every night, without tolerance. My main peeve about it is that it's too short-acting.
>
> BTW, nortriptyline was not sedating for me, and it had anticholinergic effects that I had trouble tolerating, even at very low doses.

When I first started taking Ambien, it worked extremely well. It was very fast-acting, and had no "hangover" feeling the next day. I've been taking it for several months; unfortunately, I must have built up a tolerance to it, because now it no longer works on me. However, if you've never tried it, I would highly recommend it for insomnia. Mary, let me know how you're doing with the Ambien. I hope it's working well for you. Joanne

 

Re: INSOMNIA

Posted by Andy on December 16, 1999, at 14:04:52

In reply to Re: INSOMNIA, posted by Elizabeth on December 15, 1999, at 23:27:25

>
I've used it for a couple of years and have not developed tolerance. I try to stay under 10mg since at 10 I begin to have some side effect the next day (slight dizzyness, slightly slurred speech, slightly slowed thinking). Under 10mg no side effect for me.

Often it won't get me through the night. So I "cheat"--I break a 5mg pill in half and that is usually enough for me to get to sleep. If (usually when) I wake up two or three hours later I take the other half. If I wake up again I might take 2mg (break a 5mg pill unevenly and take the smaller piece).

Works for me. I started it for straight sleeping difficulties. Need it regularly now because I started prozac about six months ago.

> Andy: From what I understand, Ambien is a great drug, but (please correct me if I a wrong)it's for short term use, whereas nortriptyline can be used for extended periods of time.
>
> I asked my pdoc about this when he prescribed Ambien to use for insomnia daily. He replied that many people are able to take it longer term without developing tolerance. He also said that in his experience it actually works better if you take it every day than sporadically - perhaps this is because it keeps you on a regular sleep schedule (something that's always been a problem for me).
>
> I took it - 20mg/night - for a year or so, pretty much every night, without tolerance. My main peeve about it is that it's too short-acting.
>
> BTW, nortriptyline was not sedating for me, and it had anticholinergic effects that I had trouble tolerating, even at very low doses.

 

Re: INSOMNIA

Posted by Adam on December 17, 1999, at 15:11:53

In reply to Re: INSOMNIA, posted by Andy on December 16, 1999, at 14:04:52

We've all heard about it, and it has been kicked around in the media quite a lot, with unrealistic claims both about its benefits and its risks...

Has anybody here tried melatonin? My take on it is it probably won't make you sleep, but it might help "renormalize" your sleep patterns and improve the quality of the sleep you do get if the timing of administration and the dosing is correct.

Has anyone tried it? Did it help?

Also, has anyone tried this with an MAOI? Are there any risks or issues with dosing beyond whatever should be the normal constraints on its use?

Thanks!


Thanks!

 

Re: INSOMNIA [Melatonin]

Posted by dove on December 19, 1999, at 9:50:39

In reply to Re: INSOMNIA, posted by Adam on December 17, 1999, at 15:11:53

I think a number of us have discussed the melatonin thing. While taking Prozac I had to up the amount I took every night, but since quiting the Prozac I am back to Melatonin 1mg. sublingual. I still take Amitriptyline before bed, but that alone is not, usually, enough to get me to sleep. My problem is not staying asleep but falling asleep, so this may be why sublingual melatonin works so well for me.

I am still in a bit of a funk, it worries me, one of the biggest lows I have had since I was a teenager, [and the longest time I have gone without being pregnant since getting married at 19] anyway, after reading Dr. Bob's pharmo-tips and finding the depressive effects of melatonin, I tried to go without, challenging the depression so-to-speak. I found myself even worse in the morning, so I still don't know if the melatonin is adding to the low or what?

My advice is, try melatonin if you wish, but be aware that it may add to any depressive characteristics, or it may help, I don't know. And try to get by with the smallest dosage that helps, the sublingual enables me to take way less that the normal swallow kind.

dove

 

Re: INSOMNIA

Posted by Elizabeth on December 19, 1999, at 10:16:22

In reply to Re: INSOMNIA, posted by Adam on December 17, 1999, at 15:11:53

> Has anyone tried it? Did it help?
>
> Also, has anyone tried this with an MAOI? Are there any risks or issues with dosing beyond whatever should be the normal constraints on its use?

I had mild symptoms of central serotonin syndrome (dilated pupils, inappropriate sweating, and - get this - insomnia) when I tried taking a low dose (1/2 mg I think) with Parnate.

I also tried it when I wasn't taking an MAOI. Despite the fact that I supposedly have a circadian rhythm disorder, it didn't do a thing, even at high doses.

 

Re: INSOMNIA

Posted by Adam on December 19, 1999, at 12:34:28

In reply to Re: INSOMNIA, posted by Elizabeth on December 19, 1999, at 10:16:22

That's what I was afraid of, melatonin being a derivative of 5-HT. I could find nothing in the
literature about such a combination, though, or melatonin being associated with serotonin syndrome.
Despite the inkling there could be risks, and your apparent confirmation of this, I can't think of a
concrete reason, mechanistically, why this should happen. Do you have any theories. Does melatonin
have sympathomimetic properties? Is it recycled into 5-HT? Is it a 5-HT receptor agonist? Nothing
I have read would indicate any of these possibilites, but that certainly could be because I didn't
know where to look.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts...


> > Has anyone tried it? Did it help?
> >
> > Also, has anyone tried this with an MAOI? Are there any risks or issues with dosing beyond whatever should be the normal constraints on its use?
>
> I had mild symptoms of central serotonin syndrome (dilated pupils, inappropriate sweating, and - get this - insomnia) when I tried taking a low dose (1/2 mg I think) with Parnate.
>
> I also tried it when I wasn't taking an MAOI. Despite the fact that I supposedly have a circadian rhythm disorder, it didn't do a thing, even at high doses.

 

Re: INSOMNIA [Melatonin], dove.

Posted by Adam on December 19, 1999, at 13:18:14

In reply to Re: INSOMNIA [Melatonin], posted by dove on December 19, 1999, at 9:50:39

Thank you, dove.

I may just give melatonin a try. I'm still scratching my head over Elizabeth's adverse
troubles with it, and hopefully will get some insight into this. I did read about
it's possible depressive effects, and I think we both have to weigh such cautions against
the fact that even antidepressants can aggravate depression, depending on the individual
response to a drug.

The trouble for me at this point is I am in a clinical trial, and this severely limits
what other drugs I can take concomitantly with selegiline. I can't even take Benadryl.
I might run into the same problem with melatonin under any circumstances, and so for the
next few months it might not be an option anyway.

At this point exercise is the only solution I can think of that isn't forbidden.

What's weird, and has been my experience all along with selegiline, is that I got maybe
three hours of sleep last night (I should say this morning), and I feel fine. I feel
better and more alert than I used to feel getting my usual six or seven hours of sleep.
The problems have been that I am slowly moving into a nocturnal lifestyle, and I am
finding it very hard to reverse this. I am completely out-of-whack with the day-to-day
rhythms of my friends and coworkers. The vampire jokes have inevitably started, and
I sometimes wonder if Vlad the Impaler or whoever the inspiration for Dracula was didn't
have a sleep disorder. I'm hoping that melatonin might help me at least exert some
control over the pattern. I see my doctor in a few days. I'll let folks know what his
take on melatonin, combo. with MAOI, etc. is.

Lastly, is it possible for a person to just go forever on 3-4 hours max. of sleep/day
and be healthy? Is one liable at this point to resort to hypnotics for self-preservation?


> I think a number of us have discussed the melatonin thing. While taking Prozac I had to up the amount I took every night, but since quiting the Prozac I am back to Melatonin 1mg. sublingual. I still take Amitriptyline before bed, but that alone is not, usually, enough to get me to sleep. My problem is not staying asleep but falling asleep, so this may be why sublingual melatonin works so well for me.
>
> I am still in a bit of a funk, it worries me, one of the biggest lows I have had since I was a teenager, [and the longest time I have gone without being pregnant since getting married at 19] anyway, after reading Dr. Bob's pharmo-tips and finding the depressive effects of melatonin, I tried to go without, challenging the depression so-to-speak. I found myself even worse in the morning, so I still don't know if the melatonin is adding to the low or what?
>
> My advice is, try melatonin if you wish, but be aware that it may add to any depressive characteristics, or it may help, I don't know. And try to get by with the smallest dosage that helps, the sublingual enables me to take way less that the normal swallow kind.
>
> dove

 

Re: INSOMNIA [Melatonin], dove.

Posted by Noa on December 19, 1999, at 14:21:12

In reply to Re: INSOMNIA [Melatonin], dove., posted by Adam on December 19, 1999, at 13:18:14

Adam,

I vaguely remember hearing that melatonin can cause depression.

The guy at Yale that I told you about is, I think, THE expert on melatonin research. You might want to ask him.

 

melatonin

Posted by Elizabeth on December 19, 1999, at 14:58:47

In reply to Re: INSOMNIA, posted by Adam on December 19, 1999, at 12:34:28

> Despite the inkling there could be risks, and your apparent confirmation of this, I can't think of a
> concrete reason, mechanistically, why this should happen. Do you have any theories. Does melatonin
> have sympathomimetic properties? Is it recycled into 5-HT? Is it a 5-HT receptor agonist?

I dunno if this applies, but what about le Chatelier's principle?

 

Re: melatonin

Posted by Adam on December 19, 1999, at 16:05:27

In reply to melatonin, posted by Elizabeth on December 19, 1999, at 14:58:47

OK, stretching memory banks to the max here...

I don't think Le Chantelier's principle is applicable here because of the nature, if
any, if an "equilibrium" between 5-HT and melatonin production. If you consider the
rate limiting step (N-acetylation of 5-HT by seratonin acetyltransferase), the enzyme
can only drive the reaction in one direction. I can become saturated, but it won't
start making 5-HT our of N-acetyl-5-HT, so a chemical equilibrium does not exit per se
(wrong kind of catalyst). However, your intuition could lead one to considering
more complex feedback loops. Seratonin syndrome would thus depend on at least a
couple of things: There is a periodicity of serotonin production (probably timed with
the synthesis of melatonin), that administration of exogenous melotonin leads to
negative feedback on the melatonin synthesis pathway, and the rusultant surplus of
serotonin is large enough to be harmful.

Not a bad theory, I guess.


> > Despite the inkling there could be risks, and your apparent confirmation of this, I can't think of a
> > concrete reason, mechanistically, why this should happen. Do you have any theories. Does melatonin
> > have sympathomimetic properties? Is it recycled into 5-HT? Is it a 5-HT receptor agonist?
>
> I dunno if this applies, but what about le Chatelier's principle?

 

Re: melatonin, ummm

Posted by Adam on December 19, 1999, at 22:49:06

In reply to Re: melatonin, posted by Adam on December 19, 1999, at 16:11:29

I don't know what the hell just happened above. Please forget about
all but the last message. Dr. Bob, could you please erase the others?
It looks kind of silly :).

> OK, stretching memory banks to the max here...
>
> I don't think Le Chantelier's principle is applicable here because of the nature, if
> any, if an "equilibrium" between 5-HT and melatonin production. If you consider the
> rate limiting step (N-acetylation of 5-HT by seratonin acetyltransferase), the enzyme
> is essential, and the reaction only goes in one direction. The enzyme can become saturated,
> but it won't start making 5-HT out of N-acetyl-5-HT, so a chemical "equilibrium" does not
> exit per se. However, your intuition could lead one to considering an equilibrium based on
> more complex feedback loops. Seratonin syndrome would thus depend on at least a
> couple of things: There is a periodicity of serotonin production (probably timed with
> the synthesis of melatonin), that administration of exogenous melotonin leads to
> negative feedback on the melatonin synthesis pathway, and the rusultant surplus of
> serotonin is large enough to be harmful.
>
> Not a bad theory, I guess.
>
>
>
>
> > > Despite the inkling there could be risks, and your apparent confirmation of this, I can't think of a
> > > concrete reason, mechanistically, why this should happen. Do you have any theories. Does melatonin
> > > have sympathomimetic properties? Is it recycled into 5-HT? Is it a 5-HT receptor agonist?
> >
> > I dunno if this applies, but what about le Chatelier's principle?

 

Re: melatonin, ummm

Posted by dove on December 20, 1999, at 8:54:03

In reply to Re: melatonin, ummm, posted by Adam on December 19, 1999, at 22:49:06

First laugh of the week, or should I say in a week, Yeah!! Adam, you have a way of being so entertaining, I don't know how you do it, it just sneaks up on me and I find myself smiling. Thank you for your humanity. I hate to add to the run-on threads, but I really wanted to say "It's okay Adam, your long list of posts are more than forgivable, they're welcome!"

smiling for once,
dove

 

Re: melatonin, ummm, dove, Dr. Bob(?)

Posted by Adam on December 20, 1999, at 13:00:18

In reply to Re: melatonin, ummm, posted by dove on December 20, 1999, at 8:54:03

I don't understand it. I wrote my little spiel about Le Chatelier's Principle,
hit send and...waited. And waited. So I'm sitting there, and of course all my
textbooks are at work so I'm paranoid I've said something stupid so I make some
cahnges to clarify and/or correct, hit stop, hit send again and I waited...and
waited...Finally I had to leave to go to another holiday gathering and just gave
up. I didn't think I posted anything at all. Then I logged on again VERY early
this morning and GAH, there's eight bazillion Adams in a row, both my first
crappy attempt and then my next somewhat less crappy attempt.

Web wierdness.

> First laugh of the week, or should I say in a week, Yeah!! Adam, you have a way of being so entertaining, I don't know how you do it, it just sneaks up on me and I find myself smiling. Thank you for your humanity. I hate to add to the run-on threads, but I really wanted to say "It's okay Adam, your long list of posts are more than forgivable, they're welcome!"
>
> smiling for once,
> dove

 

Re: INSOMNIA

Posted by Andy on December 22, 1999, at 11:10:45

In reply to Re: INSOMNIA, posted by JohnL on December 13, 1999, at 12:36:22

>John: What dose of Nortrip do you take for sleep? Any side effects ? Weight gain?

Hi Joanne,
>
> I think I've tried most everything out there for insomnia. Such as tricyclics, benzos, Remeron, Serzone, Trazodone. Of them all I personally have to say I like the tricyclics best. Even though they all put me to sleep and pretty much kept me asleep, the tricyclics gave me that feeling in the morning like I had really slept well. The others seem to give a strange kind of sleep for me.
>
> Tricyclics for me are smooth. And it seems like a high quality kind of sleep, not a drugged kind of false sleep that I get from everything else. I take one of the less sedating ones, called Nortriptyline, and it's just right. There are more sedating ones. And you won't need much more than a low dose which shouldn't affect you during the day. Since they come on a little slower and more subtle than other drugs, I dose anywhere from 3:00 to 5:00 in the afternoon. That way it's kicking in strongest just about bedtime. Any later messes with the next morning. I've seen the tricyclics, especially Nortriptyline, combined with Wellbutrin for refractory depression as well. Based on my experience, I'm putting a vote in here for a tricyclic for insomnia. Imipramine, Anafranil, and Amitriptyline are the more sedating ones, while Nortriptyline is a bit more mild. So before you see your doctor, sleep on it. :) JohnL

 

Re: INSOMNIA

Posted by Phillip Marx on December 23, 1999, at 2:16:14

In reply to Re: INSOMNIA, posted by Adam on December 19, 1999, at 12:34:28

My house is wall-to-wall books, so I can't find it right now, but there is a very affordable book/thick pamphlet on 5-HTP available at better health food stores that shows all the precursors, enzymes and other organic chemistry reactions.

Phillip Marx
PhilMarx@net999.com

> That's what I was afraid of, melatonin being a derivative of 5-HT. I could find nothing in the
> literature about such a combination, though, or melatonin being associated with serotonin syndrome.
> Despite the inkling there could be risks, and your apparent confirmation of this, I can't think of a
> concrete reason, mechanistically, why this should happen. Do you have any theories. Does melatonin
> have sympathomimetic properties? Is it recycled into 5-HT? Is it a 5-HT receptor agonist? Nothing
> I have read would indicate any of these possibilites, but that certainly could be because I didn't
> know where to look.
>
> Thanks in advance for your thoughts...
>
>
> > > Has anyone tried it? Did it help?
> > >
> > > Also, has anyone tried this with an MAOI? Are there any risks or issues with dosing beyond whatever should be the normal constraints on its use?
> >
> > I had mild symptoms of central serotonin syndrome (dilated pupils, inappropriate sweating, and - get this - insomnia) when I tried taking a low dose (1/2 mg I think) with Parnate.
> >
> > I also tried it when I wasn't taking an MAOI. Despite the fact that I supposedly have a circadian rhythm disorder, it didn't do a thing, even at high doses.

 

Re: INSOMNIA

Posted by Phillip Marx on December 23, 1999, at 2:22:01

In reply to Re: INSOMNIA, posted by Andy on December 22, 1999, at 11:10:45

Are any of you diagnosed as severe (bizarre) insomniacs?

I haven't been to sleep for over five years without medication. I was up for over 14 days straight the first time, I think the record is 15, people start dying at ten, I was up 10 days straight the second time, but that time I really wanted to never have been born. As depressing as that ought to be I’ve had no unusual mood swings, though my worry thresholds have changed from being out of work these five years from crippling sedative buildups which did reverse a lot of stress damage, so I regret it more than I complain about it. I was lucky enough to be a zero-debt half millionaire when it happened, though that is half gone now. They tried lithium for about three years and gave up since it only gave me lithium withdrawals and zero improvement, even after an instance of severe dehydration from running a half marathon which exacerbated toxicity way past the toxic threshold maintenance they attempted to guarantee with time-released lithium and frequent blood tests. It should have helped. I found that exercising all the muscles just enough to trigger glycogen (et. al.) retention forced the blood brain barrier permeability to open up to sedatives (et.al.) enough better to benefit sleep even though exercise normally delays sleep. Muscles actually develop really well when subjected to immediate sleep for regeneration. The lithium also lowered my thyroid numbers to 20% my norms. UCI’s world famous Sleep Disorders Center failed to find relief without using long half-life medicines that kept me from ever waking up thoroughly since I had become immune to all the short half-life varieties, probably should have rotated and used higher doses early on. I used to be able to go to sleep in seconds and could even sleep a half-hour on the floor at work and then work another 24 hours straight since my sleep was apparently very efficient. SDI Research and Development had become suicidally competitive after Clinton was elected. I was also managing a proposal for Strategic Defense Initiative technology reinvestment in the commercial sector that would have shrunk the electronics for a 128-256 electrode geodesic array EEG sensor network from a cabinet the size of a couple of luggage trunks into a single NASA-grade, Rad-Hard IC chip the size of a thumbnail for http:// www.egi.com/Research.shtml (my former company is now working on a flexible wearable sensor with memory for sleep disorder diagnosis http://community-1.webtv.net/SYZYGIAN2/IRSNShareholder/page3.html (bottom of page) for NIH (NINDS)). Those work hours “grew” into working up to twice a month over 80 hours straight (3-1/2 days) without sleep with the last time being the time that broke something. I suspect EMF. I was working 4 computers simultaneously around me in a circle constantly, all within a couple of feet, without breaks. The government’s EMFRAPID program http://www.google.com/search?q=EMFRAPID&num=10&sa=Google+Search shows that 90% of the EMF research is on the pineal gland, the sleep center and it’s related organic chemistry, which is at or near the foci for the skull’s internal paraboloids. They won’t admit it (plausible deniability for litigation liability defense, especially the Navy), but they know or they would have funded the research on something else somewhere else. I’ve heard there is a lot of research going on regarding sound and light frequencies and juvenile computer addictions. I suspect the work was self-anaesthetizing addictively in a non-sedative way. Parabolas focus both sound and light. My doctor now, www.DrJensen.com has me on Halcion (triazolam) and Serzone combined, both of which have zero effect on me taken alone, it was a lucky find, nothing logical worked. According to the PDR, Serzone makes the Halcion 1.7 times stronger and last 2.8 times longer synergistically with a falloff instead of a taper-off from mere renal clearance. The only side effect is a persistent worry that I’ll get immune (tolerant) to this as well. It saved my life and gave me a life back for about two years now. I am now taking classes to transfer into something that has income for semi-retirement and getting the top grades in the classes: so it is working well. My home computer randomized I.Q. tester scores me between 135 and 150 consistently when fully awaken, much less when wearing off, well 150 only once, but with a large range that shows lingering sedation asymptotes are really low really quickly, though a 15 point plus (10%) daily range is still sometimes difficult to count on, though much better than the old 50-75% walking zombie stages.

If it is EMF, then there should be lots of victims like myself, though maybe most of them are in asylums on haldol or haloperidol because of the consequences of such severe sleep deficits on those with less endurance training. Because the loss of sleep function indicates mania, bipolar disorder is the first assumption. I’ve never switched back, it’s been almost 6 years, yet often feel it is eminent. Because traditional bipolar medications only produce side effects and not corrective effects on those who aren’t bipolar, with many of the side effects similar to the bipolar disorder they are attempting to treat (masking), I suspect most diagnoses de-specialize into atypical bipolar disorder eventually if the sleep deficits can be kept short of psychosis. Thus I would expect those other survivors most functional to be diagnosed with atypical bipolar disorder. Statistical diagnosis software will have to be redesigned to not filter out non-gaussian data to locate the rest of us. I’ve been forced to get relatively literate on all this and will be willing to contribute to any mutual assistance discussions.

There should be lots of people like me. Does this ring any bells?
Atypical Bipolar Disorder Insomnia (NOS)??


Phillip Marx
PhilMarx@net999.com

> >John: What dose of Nortrip do you take for sleep? Any side effects ? Weight gain?
>
> Hi Joanne,
> >
> > I think I've tried most everything out there for insomnia. Such as tricyclics, benzos, Remeron, Serzone, Trazodone. Of them all I personally have to say I like the tricyclics best. Even though they all put me to sleep and pretty much kept me asleep, the tricyclics gave me that feeling in the morning like I had really slept well. The others seem to give a strange kind of sleep for me.
> >
> > Tricyclics for me are smooth. And it seems like a high quality kind of sleep, not a drugged kind of false sleep that I get from everything else. I take one of the less sedating ones, called Nortriptyline, and it's just right. There are more sedating ones. And you won't need much more than a low dose which shouldn't affect you during the day. Since they come on a little slower and more subtle than other drugs, I dose anywhere from 3:00 to 5:00 in the afternoon. That way it's kicking in strongest just about bedtime. Any later messes with the next morning. I've seen the tricyclics, especially Nortriptyline, combined with Wellbutrin for refractory depression as well. Based on my experience, I'm putting a vote in here for a tricyclic for insomnia. Imipramine, Anafranil, and Amitriptyline are the more sedating ones, while Nortriptyline is a bit more mild. So before you see your doctor, sleep on it. :) JohnL

 

Re: melatonin, ummm

Posted by Phillip Marx on December 23, 1999, at 2:52:17

In reply to Re: melatonin, ummm, posted by Adam on December 19, 1999, at 22:49:06

http://www.vh.org/Providers/Lectures/EmergencyMed/Psychiatry/MedEmergSerotonin.html

I'm seeing a lot of medications listed by posters that affect serotonin. Not just SSRIs (Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitors) and such. The indicated site above will give you diagnostic indications as well as medications to PRE-lookup in your PDR (Physicians' Desk Reference) so that you can be pre-warned about medicines and inter-reactions before you are in a emergency befuddled state. If you think you are going to be susceptible, make a copy from that site and carry it with you so that whatever doctor you might be babbling to has half a chance of knowing what you are babbling about and give your theory a fair respect and hearing before deciding if it is or if it is something else.

Phillip Marx
PhilMarx@net999.com

> I don't know what the hell just happened above. Please forget about
> all but the last message. Dr. Bob, could you please erase the others?
> It looks kind of silly :).
>
> > OK, stretching memory banks to the max here...
> >
> > I don't think Le Chantelier's principle is applicable here because of the nature, if
> > any, if an "equilibrium" between 5-HT and melatonin production. If you consider the
> > rate limiting step (N-acetylation of 5-HT by seratonin acetyltransferase), the enzyme
> > is essential, and the reaction only goes in one direction. The enzyme can become saturated,
> > but it won't start making 5-HT out of N-acetyl-5-HT, so a chemical "equilibrium" does not
> > exit per se. However, your intuition could lead one to considering an equilibrium based on
> > more complex feedback loops. Seratonin syndrome would thus depend on at least a
> > couple of things: There is a periodicity of serotonin production (probably timed with
> > the synthesis of melatonin), that administration of exogenous melotonin leads to
> > negative feedback on the melatonin synthesis pathway, and the rusultant surplus of
> > serotonin is large enough to be harmful.
> >
> > Not a bad theory, I guess.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > > Despite the inkling there could be risks, and your apparent confirmation of this, I can't think of a
> > > > concrete reason, mechanistically, why this should happen. Do you have any theories. Does melatonin
> > > > have sympathomimetic properties? Is it recycled into 5-HT? Is it a 5-HT receptor agonist?
> > >
> > > I dunno if this applies, but what about le Chatelier's principle?

 

Re: INSOMNIA

Posted by Elizabeth on December 23, 1999, at 10:54:38

In reply to Re: INSOMNIA, posted by Phillip Marx on December 23, 1999, at 2:22:01

> Are any of you diagnosed as severe (bizarre) insomniacs?

What would "bizarre" insomnia constitute? I have primary insomnia, circadian rhythma disorder - irregular sleep-wake pattern type, and REM sleep behavior disorder. (The latter is under control.)

> I haven't been to sleep for over five years without medication.

At all? Even after being sleep-deprived for a long time?

> They tried lithium for about three years and gave up since it only gave me lithium withdrawals and zero improvement, even after an instance of severe dehydration from running a half marathon which exacerbated toxicity way past the toxic threshold maintenance they attempted to guarantee with time-released lithium and frequent blood tests.

What did the lithium withdrawals consist of? Lithium isn't suppose to cause withdrawal symptoms so I'm curious.

> I found that exercising all the muscles just enough to trigger glycogen (et. al.) retention forced the blood brain barrier permeability to open up to sedatives (et.al.) enough better to benefit sleep even though exercise normally delays sleep. Muscles actually develop really well when subjected to immediate sleep for regeneration. The lithium also lowered my thyroid numbers to 20% my norms. UCI’s world famous Sleep Disorders Center failed to find relief without using long half-life medicines that kept me from ever waking up thoroughly since I had become immune to all the short half-life varieties, probably should have rotated and used higher doses early on.

Exactly which medicines have you tried besides lithium, Halcion, and Serzone?

> There should be lots of people like me. Does this ring any bells?
> Atypical Bipolar Disorder Insomnia (NOS)??

I've been diagnosed with bipolar NOS (it turned out to be a mixed episode from serotonin syndrome due to Effexor). Do you know what it refers to in your case? You do come across as quite manic. Which antimanic drugs have you tried?


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