Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 16763

Shown: posts 1 to 11 of 11. This is the beginning of the thread.

 

Clonazepam Trial for Social Phobia

Posted by Michele on December 12, 1999, at 12:31:33

Hi,

Have spent the weekend researching new/old meds for my GAD/Social Phobia/Depression. I have tried just about all the SSRI's. Effexor was probably gave me the least amount of effects however if the benefits had been good I would still be on it. I have gone for a long period without medication and am now ready to try again.

I would sure appreciate info on clonazepam, dosages, effects, withdrawal, long-term use, benefits. I am interested in this one because it is the least upsetting to the system. I am just in no mood to deal with weight gain, dizzyness and all that crap again.

Thanks guys for your support.

Michele

 

Re: Clonazepam Trial for Social Phobia

Posted by Rick on December 12, 1999, at 18:24:28

In reply to Clonazepam Trial for Social Phobia, posted by Michele on December 12, 1999, at 12:31:33

It's not just the "least upsetting to the system", it's also the only benzo clinically demonstrated in a large-scale, placebo-controlled blind study to be effective for Social Phobia. Indeed, the responsiveness rates were extremely high, even more so than "gold-standard" AD Nardil, and a lot higher than for Paxil and other SSRI's. So there's an excellent chance it will work for you.

Since July or August, I've written much in this site about how Klonopin has been a lifesaver for my severe generalized Social Phobia, after having tried Nardil, Xanax, and several other meds. And, except when I tried (counter-productively) taking more of it than I really needed, there have been NO bad side effects for me, except for a tad of sedation the first week or two. I take 1.5 - 2.0 mg/day. I certainly wouldn't recommened anything over 3.0, despite what one widely-circulated Brazilian study says. You need to experiment a bit with dosage and timing, but even before I reached my "optimal" regimen, the benefits were so quick and marked that I was amazed -- even after having read about the 78% significant-response rate in the '93 Duke University study.

While Klonopin is the linchpin of my treatment, I also get a pleasantly calming effect from just a small amount (2.5 mg bid) of the serotonin-friendly beta blocker Pindolol, originally added because my heart rate was high. I have also experimented with adding in BuSpar and low-dose Selegiline (I had tried the latter BEFORE Klonopin, with no anxiety benefit). Both were nicely "activating", although the BuSpar side effects for some reason proved too much for me and actually added a little counter-productive jitteriness. I've recently added back the Selegiline, which I initially quit because it was sexually OVER-stimulating for me when taken with Klonopin (talk about a side-effect difference vs. SSRI's and MAOI's!)

But, again, Klonopin (many swear the brand is superior to generic clonazepam) is the key, and I'm very grateful to have found it. The other meds are just "fine-tuning" (although I really noticed a difference mornings when I eliminated that tiny dose of Pindolol for awhile). I've had so much relief in both professional and other social settings. Klonopin allows me to think more clearly and focus on what's important, rather than mentally and physically falling apart around other people in specific situations.

I'd stop here, but must add one very important note: Unlike you, I do not suffer from depression. Klonopin alone certainly won't treat depression, and in fact in some depression-prone people may actually *encourage* depression after extended usage. Have you tried Serzone or Manerix (not available in U.S., but doc can order from Canada)? These tend to have fewer side effects, especially sexually and weight-related, although some people find Serzone sedating; have both supposedly shown some degree of benefit for Social Phobia; and can both be used with Klonopin. Also, if you are not sensitive to its side effects (such as dizziness or fatigue -- NOT sexual problems) the GAD med BuSpar is said to be an effective *antidepressant* at high doses (min 60-90 mg). Indeed, there is some anecdotal evidence that HIGH-DOSE BuSpar can help alleviate Social Phobia.

Good luck to you.

Rick
-----
> Hi,
>
> Have spent the weekend researching new/old meds for my GAD/Social Phobia/Depression. I have tried just about all the SSRI's. Effexor was probably gave me the least amount of effects however if the benefits had been good I would still be on it. I have gone for a long period without medication and am now ready to try again.
>
> I would sure appreciate info on clonazepam, dosages, effects, withdrawal, long-term use, benefits. I am interested in this one because it is the least upsetting to the system. I am just in no mood to deal with weight gain, dizzyness and all that crap again.
>
> Thanks guys for your support.
>
> Michele

 

Re: Clonazepam Trial for Social Phobia

Posted by Bob on December 12, 1999, at 22:11:07

In reply to Re: Clonazepam Trial for Social Phobia, posted by Rick on December 12, 1999, at 18:24:28

Even tho my dx is for panic disorder, I've always been one of those folks best described as "painfully shy". Nah, no social phobia there. I've managed to confront my fears in many situations, but only to the extent that I can disassociate myself from the situation (e.g., I can teach or speak to a room of hundreds, but because I see it as the "material" speaking more than me doing the talking. Now, if I had to act or sing or put some emotion into it .... GACK!!!).

Anyway, clonazepam came into my life thru a comedy of errors. From the first week I had been taking it, I've counted it as the one thing that has gone completely right in my various treatments.

People seem to understand the idea of not knowing something was missing from your life until you finally found it. Quite the opposite for me. I had never known just how much fear and anxiety were a daily part of my life until it had all been taken away from me. I can't describe what is missing -- I just know it's gone and I'm quite thankful for that.

I have been lucky enough to stay at a fairly low dose. 0.5mg in the AM while I was on an AD+augmentor, but I've been bumped up to 1.0mg/d after dropping everything but my nortrip (and the clonazepam, of course). I mentioned on another thread how, without SSRIs, some OCD-like behaviors have crept back a little into my life. These had all been means of dealing with my anxiety, and the more anxious I was, the more obsessive I became about them. Now, it feels kinda like I'm just going through the motions ... too little anxiety to fuel them, even given the state of my life right now (holidays, relationship problems, and of course dealing with the witchhunt at work).

So, I say go for it. Maybe I'll have my pdoc up my dose, after rereading that last paragraph -- maybe that will take care of what's missing from the SSRIs for me.

Cheers,
Bob

[PS for those hooked to the soap opera: the EEOC served my charge, and things have been VERY quite around the office. From my inquiries, it sounds like my employers have agreed to mediation, tho I have yet to hear personally from the EEOC on it.]

 

Re: Clonazepam Trial for Social Phobia

Posted by Louise on December 12, 1999, at 22:24:21

In reply to Re: Clonazepam Trial for Social Phobia, posted by Rick on December 12, 1999, at 18:24:28

Rick,

I'd like to point out that Klonopin doesn't necessarily *encourage* depression in "depression-prone people". By all accounts I've read and every pdoc I've talked with, Klonopin can actually *cause* depression in SOME people. Although I don't take an A/D and never had ongoing depression previously, I developed severe depression while on Klonopin. According to a pdoc whose opinion I respect, the percentage rate for developing depression on Klonopin is fairly high. I'm not trying to scare anyone who wants to try Klonopin because it can work wonders, but if you do try it be aware that depression can be a potential side effect just in case it happens to you.

Louise


> I'd stop here, but must add one very important note: Unlike you, I do not suffer from depression. Klonopin alone certainly won't treat depression, and in fact in some depression-prone people may actually *encourage* depression after extended usage. Have you tried Serzone or Manerix (not available in U.S., but doc can order from Canada)? These tend to have fewer side effects, especially sexually and weight-related, although some people find Serzone sedating; have both supposedly shown some degree of benefit for Social Phobia; and can both be used with Klonopin. Also, if you are not sensitive to its side effects (such as dizziness or fatigue -- NOT sexual problems) the GAD med BuSpar is said to be an effective *antidepressant* at high doses (min 60-90 mg). Indeed, there is some anecdotal evidence that HIGH-DOSE BuSpar can help alleviate Social Phobia.
>
> Good luck to you.
>
> Rick
> -----
> > Hi,
> >
> > Have spent the weekend researching new/old meds for my GAD/Social Phobia/Depression. I have tried just about all the SSRI's. Effexor was probably gave me the least amount of effects however if the benefits had been good I would still be on it. I have gone for a long period without medication and am now ready to try again.
> >
> > I would sure appreciate info on clonazepam, dosages, effects, withdrawal, long-term use, benefits. I am interested in this one because it is the least upsetting to the system. I am just in no mood to deal with weight gain, dizzyness and all that crap again.
> >
> > Thanks guys for your support.
> >
> > Michele

 

Re: Clonazepam Trial for Social Phobia

Posted by Rick on December 13, 1999, at 2:12:01

In reply to Re: Clonazepam Trial for Social Phobia, posted by Louise on December 12, 1999, at 22:24:21

Louise -

I don't think my phrase "depression prone" was wrong so much as redundant. Anyone with a chronic disorder or illness, be it mental (panic disorder, social phobia) or physical (heart disease, diabetes, Pakinson's) is statistically more likely to have or develop clinical depression. And if you're taking Klonopin, then you certainly have a chronic illness or disorder of some sort. So, in a sense this POTENTIAL side effect of Klonopin is more precisely a "potentiator" than a "cause". And that certainly is a valid consideration (one of many) to throw in the hopper when choosing meds.

From medical journal articles I've read, the general wisdom seems to be that panic sufferers are among the most prone to this potential side effect. Isn't that what you were taking Klonopin for?

Several related ironies:
-- Klonopin is often used short-term to potentiate anti-depressants
-- Depression is listed as a possible side effect
for most anti-depressants. One study of 240
panic sufferers showed a fairly high
incidence of depression as a side-effect of
SSRI's (incidentally, Klonopin did not induce
depression in any of the subjects).
-- Many other drugs list depression as a possible
side effect, including beta blockers and
dopamine agonists used in Parkinson's (and off-
label for psychotropic purposes).


Rick
----
> Rick,
>
> I'd like to point out that Klonopin doesn't necessarily *encourage* depression in "depression-prone people". By all accounts I've read and every pdoc I've talked with, Klonopin can actually *cause* depression in SOME people. Although I don't take an A/D and never had ongoing depression previously, I developed severe depression while on Klonopin. According to a pdoc whose opinion I respect, the percentage rate for developing depression on Klonopin is fairly high. I'm not trying to scare anyone who wants to try Klonopin because it can work wonders, but if you do try it be aware that depression can be a potential side effect just in case it happens to you.
>
> Louise
>
>
> > I'd stop here, but must add one very important note: Unlike you, I do not suffer from depression. Klonopin alone certainly won't treat depression, and in fact in some depression-prone people may actually *encourage* depression after extended usage. Have you tried Serzone or Manerix (not available in U.S., but doc can order from Canada)? These tend to have fewer side effects, especially sexually and weight-related, although some people find Serzone sedating; have both supposedly shown some degree of benefit for Social Phobia; and can both be used with Klonopin. Also, if you are not sensitive to its side effects (such as dizziness or fatigue -- NOT sexual problems) the GAD med BuSpar is said to be an effective *antidepressant* at high doses (min 60-90 mg). Indeed, there is some anecdotal evidence that HIGH-DOSE BuSpar can help alleviate Social Phobia.
> >
> > Good luck to you.
> >
> > Rick
> > -----
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > Have spent the weekend researching new/old meds for my GAD/Social Phobia/Depression. I have tried just about all the SSRI's. Effexor was probably gave me the least amount of effects however if the benefits had been good I would still be on it. I have gone for a long period without medication and am now ready to try again.
> > >
> > > I would sure appreciate info on clonazepam, dosages, effects, withdrawal, long-term use, benefits. I am interested in this one because it is the least upsetting to the system. I am just in no mood to deal with weight gain, dizzyness and all that crap again.
> > >
> > > Thanks guys for your support.
> > >
> > > Michele

 

Re: Clonazepam Trial for Social Phobia

Posted by Louise on December 13, 1999, at 6:42:43

In reply to Re: Clonazepam Trial for Social Phobia, posted by Rick on December 13, 1999, at 2:12:01

Rick,

I honestly don't understand why people get so defensive when I and others point out this potential side effect with Klonopin. No, Klonopin can actually cause depression in some people. I didn't know anything about Klonopin until after several successful years of taking Xanax and deciding that I wanted to try the longer-lasting Klonopin. My pdoc placed me on Klonopin with absolutely no information or warnings about it.

If I were depressed, my pdoc would have me on anti-depression medication, but that has never been my problem. I have general anxiety disorder, and even though I have always done adequately socially, my social life has greatly improved since the anxiety is under control.

Why can't you just tell people that for some reason depression can be a potential side effect with a small percentage of people who take Klonopin? It bothers me greatly when people assume that only those who are "depression-prone" will get it. That simply is not always the case.

Louise


> Louise -
>
> I don't think my phrase "depression prone" was wrong so much as redundant. Anyone with a chronic disorder or illness, be it mental (panic disorder, social phobia) or physical (heart disease, diabetes, Pakinson's) is statistically more likely to have or develop clinical depression. And if you're taking Klonopin, then you certainly have a chronic illness or disorder of some sort. So, in a sense this POTENTIAL side effect of Klonopin is more precisely a "potentiator" than a "cause". And that certainly is a valid consideration (one of many) to throw in the hopper when choosing meds.
>
> From medical journal articles I've read, the general wisdom seems to be that panic sufferers are among the most prone to this potential side effect. Isn't that what you were taking Klonopin for?
>
> Several related ironies:
> -- Klonopin is often used short-term to potentiate anti-depressants
> -- Depression is listed as a possible side effect
> for most anti-depressants. One study of 240
> panic sufferers showed a fairly high
> incidence of depression as a side-effect of
> SSRI's (incidentally, Klonopin did not induce
> depression in any of the subjects).
> -- Many other drugs list depression as a possible
> side effect, including beta blockers and
> dopamine agonists used in Parkinson's (and off-
> label for psychotropic purposes).
>
>
> Rick
> ----
> > Rick,
> >
> > I'd like to point out that Klonopin doesn't necessarily *encourage* depression in "depression-prone people". By all accounts I've read and every pdoc I've talked with, Klonopin can actually *cause* depression in SOME people. Although I don't take an A/D and never had ongoing depression previously, I developed severe depression while on Klonopin. According to a pdoc whose opinion I respect, the percentage rate for developing depression on Klonopin is fairly high. I'm not trying to scare anyone who wants to try Klonopin because it can work wonders, but if you do try it be aware that depression can be a potential side effect just in case it happens to you.
> >
> > Louise
> >
> >
> > > I'd stop here, but must add one very important note: Unlike you, I do not suffer from depression. Klonopin alone certainly won't treat depression, and in fact in some depression-prone people may actually *encourage* depression after extended usage. Have you tried Serzone or Manerix (not available in U.S., but doc can order from Canada)? These tend to have fewer side effects, especially sexually and weight-related, although some people find Serzone sedating; have both supposedly shown some degree of benefit for Social Phobia; and can both be used with Klonopin. Also, if you are not sensitive to its side effects (such as dizziness or fatigue -- NOT sexual problems) the GAD med BuSpar is said to be an effective *antidepressant* at high doses (min 60-90 mg). Indeed, there is some anecdotal evidence that HIGH-DOSE BuSpar can help alleviate Social Phobia.
> > >
> > > Good luck to you.
> > >
> > > Rick
> > > -----
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > Have spent the weekend researching new/old meds for my GAD/Social Phobia/Depression. I have tried just about all the SSRI's. Effexor was probably gave me the least amount of effects however if the benefits had been good I would still be on it. I have gone for a long period without medication and am now ready to try again.
> > > >
> > > > I would sure appreciate info on clonazepam, dosages, effects, withdrawal, long-term use, benefits. I am interested in this one because it is the least upsetting to the system. I am just in no mood to deal with weight gain, dizzyness and all that crap again.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks guys for your support.
> > > >
> > > > Michele

 

Re: Clonazepam Trial for Social Phobia

Posted by Rick on December 13, 1999, at 10:19:43

In reply to Re: Clonazepam Trial for Social Phobia, posted by Louise on December 13, 1999, at 6:42:43

> Rick,
>
> I honestly don't understand why people get so
defensive when I and others point out this
potential side effect with Klonopin. No, Klonopin
can actually cause depression in some people. I
didn't know anything about Klonopin until after
several successful years of taking Xanax and
deciding that I wanted to try the longer-lasting
Klonopin. My pdoc placed me on Klonopin with
absolutely no information or warnings about it.
>
> If I were depressed, my pdoc would have me on
anti-depression medication, but that has never
been my problem. I have general anxiety disorder,
and even though I have always done adequately
socially, my social life has greatly improved
since the anxiety is under control.
>
> Why can't you just tell people that for some
reason depression can be a potential side effect
with a small percentage of people who take
Klonopin? It bothers me greatly when people
assume that only those who are "depression-prone"
will get it. That simply is not always the case.
>
> Louise
>
>
Louise -

Why does it always seem we're always arguing when we bascically agree? Again, I concur that Klonopin can indeed cause depression in some people. And yes, it is more likely to do so than, say, Xanax. I was just trying to put some relevant context around this fact, namely that the people in whom Klonopin induces depression already suffer some kind of chronic mental disorder (GAD would certainly qualify) or physical illness, which -- as any pdoc would agree -- makes them more prone to depression a priori. Why else would they be taking Klonopin?

Do you know some study of the side effects of Klonopin on volunteers with no chronic physical illness, mental disorder, or history of illicit drug use? If so, please share.

P.S. Unfortunately, I won't have any time to "babble" for awhile, so if you wish to continue this discussion, I won't be able to respond.
----
> > Louise -
> >
> > I don't think my phrase "depression prone" was
wrong so much as redundant. Anyone with a chronic
disorder or illness, be it mental (panic disorder,
social phobia) or physical (heart disease,
diabetes, Pakinson's) is statistically more likely
to have or develop clinical depression. And if
you're taking Klonopin, then you certainly have a
chronic illness or disorder of some sort. So, in
a sense this POTENTIAL side effect of Klonopin is
more precisely a "potentiator" than a "cause".
And that certainly is a valid consideration (one
of many) to throw in the hopper when choosing
meds.
> >
> > From medical journal articles I've read, the
general wisdom seems to be that panic sufferers
are among the most prone to this potential side
effect. Isn't that what you were taking Klonopin
for?
> >
> > Several related ironies:
> > -- Klonopin is often used short-term to
potentiate anti-depressants
> > -- Depression is listed as a possible side
effect
> > for most anti-depressants. One study of
240
> > panic sufferers showed a fairly high
> > incidence of depression as a side-effect of
> > SSRI's (incidentally, Klonopin did not
induce
> > depression in any of the subjects).
> > -- Many other drugs list depression as a
possible
> > side effect, including beta blockers and
> > dopamine agonists used in Parkinson's (and
off-
> > label for psychotropic purposes).
> >
> >
> > Rick
> > ----
> > > Rick,
> > >
> > > I'd like to point out that Klonopin doesn't
necessarily *encourage* depression in
"depression-prone people". By all accounts I've
read and every pdoc I've talked with, Klonopin can
actually *cause* depression in SOME people.
Although I don't take an A/D and never had ongoing
depression previously, I developed severe
depression while on Klonopin. According to a pdoc
whose opinion I respect, the percentage rate for
developing depression on Klonopin is fairly high.
I'm not trying to scare anyone who wants to try
Klonopin because it can work wonders, but if you
do try it be aware that depression can be a
potential side effect just in case it happens to
you.
> > >
> > > Louise
> > >
> > >
> > > > I'd stop here, but must add one very
important note: Unlike you, I do not suffer from
depression. Klonopin alone certainly won't treat
depression, and in fact in some depression-prone
people may actually *encourage* depression after
extended usage. Have you tried Serzone or Manerix
(not available in U.S., but doc can order from
Canada)? These tend to have fewer side effects,
especially sexually and weight-related, although
some people find Serzone sedating; have both
supposedly shown some degree of benefit for Social
Phobia; and can both be used with Klonopin. Also,
if you are not sensitive to its side effects (such
as dizziness or fatigue -- NOT sexual problems)
the GAD med BuSpar is said to be an effective
*antidepressant* at high doses (min 60-90 mg).
Indeed, there is some anecdotal evidence that
HIGH-DOSE BuSpar can help alleviate Social Phobia.
> > > >
> > > > Good luck to you.
> > > >
> > > > Rick
> > > > -----
> > > > > Hi,
> > > > >
> > > > > Have spent the weekend researching
new/old meds for my GAD/Social Phobia/Depression.
I have tried just about all the SSRI's. Effexor
was probably gave me the least amount of effects
however if the benefits had been good I would
still be on it. I have gone for a long period
without medication and am now ready to try again.
> > > > >
> > > > > I would sure appreciate info on
clonazepam, dosages, effects, withdrawal,
long-term use, benefits. I am interested in this
one because it is the least upsetting to the
system. I am just in no mood to deal with weight
gain, dizzyness and all that crap again.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks guys for your support.
> > > > >
> > > > > Michele

 

Re: Clonazepam Trial for Social Phobia

Posted by Louise on December 13, 1999, at 22:50:29

In reply to Re: Clonazepam Trial for Social Phobia, posted by Rick on December 13, 1999, at 10:19:43

Rick,

I never had depression before and I never had depression after I started taking Xanax. I've been taking 1.5-2 mg. of Xanax daily for over 3 years. I developed depression for the first time after taking Klonopin over a period of 6 months. After I discontinued Klonopin, the depression went away.

Some people who have panic disorder and general anxiety disorder will also have depression. They usually take an anti-anxiety agent as well as an anti-depressant. However, this is not true for everyone. Your implication is that anybody who has any type of a psychological disorder is prone to have depression. That is too broad a statement, and is not true in every situation.

I never took Klonopin for panic ... Xanax was working fine, but my pdoc suggested Klonopin as a substitute since it is a longer-lasting benzo.

There are many internet sites that mention depression as a potential side effect of Klonopin. I don't wish to continue rehashing this issue here, but if you wish to discuss it further feel free to email me.

Louise


> > Rick,
> >
> > I honestly don't understand why people get so
> defensive when I and others point out this
> potential side effect with Klonopin. No, Klonopin
> can actually cause depression in some people. I
> didn't know anything about Klonopin until after
> several successful years of taking Xanax and
> deciding that I wanted to try the longer-lasting
> Klonopin. My pdoc placed me on Klonopin with
> absolutely no information or warnings about it.
> >
> > If I were depressed, my pdoc would have me on
> anti-depression medication, but that has never
> been my problem. I have general anxiety disorder,
> and even though I have always done adequately
> socially, my social life has greatly improved
> since the anxiety is under control.
> >
> > Why can't you just tell people that for some
> reason depression can be a potential side effect
> with a small percentage of people who take
> Klonopin? It bothers me greatly when people
> assume that only those who are "depression-prone"
> will get it. That simply is not always the case.
> >
> > Louise
> >
> >
> Louise -
>
> Why does it always seem we're always arguing when we bascically agree? Again, I concur that Klonopin can indeed cause depression in some people. And yes, it is more likely to do so than, say, Xanax. I was just trying to put some relevant context around this fact, namely that the people in whom Klonopin induces depression already suffer some kind of chronic mental disorder (GAD would certainly qualify) or physical illness, which -- as any pdoc would agree -- makes them more prone to depression a priori. Why else would they be taking Klonopin?
>
> Do you know some study of the side effects of Klonopin on volunteers with no chronic physical illness, mental disorder, or history of illicit drug use? If so, please share.
>
> P.S. Unfortunately, I won't have any time to "babble" for awhile, so if you wish to continue this discussion, I won't be able to respond.
> ----
> > > Louise -
> > >
> > > I don't think my phrase "depression prone" was
> wrong so much as redundant. Anyone with a chronic
> disorder or illness, be it mental (panic disorder,
> social phobia) or physical (heart disease,
> diabetes, Pakinson's) is statistically more likely
> to have or develop clinical depression. And if
> you're taking Klonopin, then you certainly have a
> chronic illness or disorder of some sort. So, in
> a sense this POTENTIAL side effect of Klonopin is
> more precisely a "potentiator" than a "cause".
> And that certainly is a valid consideration (one
> of many) to throw in the hopper when choosing
> meds.
> > >
> > > From medical journal articles I've read, the
> general wisdom seems to be that panic sufferers
> are among the most prone to this potential side
> effect. Isn't that what you were taking Klonopin
> for?
> > >
> > > Several related ironies:
> > > -- Klonopin is often used short-term to
> potentiate anti-depressants
> > > -- Depression is listed as a possible side
> effect
> > > for most anti-depressants. One study of
> 240
> > > panic sufferers showed a fairly high
> > > incidence of depression as a side-effect of
> > > SSRI's (incidentally, Klonopin did not
> induce
> > > depression in any of the subjects).
> > > -- Many other drugs list depression as a
> possible
> > > side effect, including beta blockers and
> > > dopamine agonists used in Parkinson's (and
> off-
> > > label for psychotropic purposes).
> > >
> > >
> > > Rick
> > > ----
> > > > Rick,
> > > >
> > > > I'd like to point out that Klonopin doesn't
> necessarily *encourage* depression in
> "depression-prone people". By all accounts I've
> read and every pdoc I've talked with, Klonopin can
> actually *cause* depression in SOME people.
> Although I don't take an A/D and never had ongoing
> depression previously, I developed severe
> depression while on Klonopin. According to a pdoc
> whose opinion I respect, the percentage rate for
> developing depression on Klonopin is fairly high.
> I'm not trying to scare anyone who wants to try
> Klonopin because it can work wonders, but if you
> do try it be aware that depression can be a
> potential side effect just in case it happens to
> you.
> > > >
> > > > Louise
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > I'd stop here, but must add one very
> important note: Unlike you, I do not suffer from
> depression. Klonopin alone certainly won't treat
> depression, and in fact in some depression-prone
> people may actually *encourage* depression after
> extended usage. Have you tried Serzone or Manerix
> (not available in U.S., but doc can order from
> Canada)? These tend to have fewer side effects,
> especially sexually and weight-related, although
> some people find Serzone sedating; have both
> supposedly shown some degree of benefit for Social
> Phobia; and can both be used with Klonopin. Also,
> if you are not sensitive to its side effects (such
> as dizziness or fatigue -- NOT sexual problems)
> the GAD med BuSpar is said to be an effective
> *antidepressant* at high doses (min 60-90 mg).
> Indeed, there is some anecdotal evidence that
> HIGH-DOSE BuSpar can help alleviate Social Phobia.
> > > > >
> > > > > Good luck to you.
> > > > >
> > > > > Rick
> > > > > -----
> > > > > > Hi,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Have spent the weekend researching
> new/old meds for my GAD/Social Phobia/Depression.
> I have tried just about all the SSRI's. Effexor
> was probably gave me the least amount of effects
> however if the benefits had been good I would
> still be on it. I have gone for a long period
> without medication and am now ready to try again.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I would sure appreciate info on
> clonazepam, dosages, effects, withdrawal,
> long-term use, benefits. I am interested in this
> one because it is the least upsetting to the
> system. I am just in no mood to deal with weight
> gain, dizzyness and all that crap again.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks guys for your support.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Michele

 

Re: Clonazepam Trial for Social Phobia

Posted by Rick on December 14, 1999, at 0:46:50

In reply to Re: Clonazepam Trial for Social Phobia, posted by Louise on December 13, 1999, at 22:50:29

OY!

Louise, didn't I AGREE with you that Klonopin CAN cause depression in some people, and that it IS more likely to do so than Xanax? What do you want, a notorized statement?

Where I HAVE erred (twice) is in using the word "prone". This word is probably too strong and may WRONGLY suggest that someone with GAD, panic, or another disorder is almost a "sure bet" to suffer depression at some point. A better way for me to put it would have been to say that there is a "high rate of comorbidity between anxiety disorders and depression". That statement does NOT, I repeat, does NOT say that MOST people with panic or GAD develop depression at some point. It says only that someone with a chronic, clinical anxiety disorder is significantly more *likely* to develop depression at some point than the average person would be. And I dare you to find me any reputable mental health specialist who disagrees with that assertion. It's about as NON-controversial as you can possibly get.

Now, who was that saying something about "defensive"?

----
> Rick,
>
> I never had depression before and I never had depression after I started taking Xanax. I've been taking 1.5-2 mg. of Xanax daily for over 3 years. I developed depression for the first time after taking Klonopin over a period of 6 months. After I discontinued Klonopin, the depression went away.
>
> Some people who have panic disorder and general anxiety disorder will also have depression. They usually take an anti-anxiety agent as well as an anti-depressant. However, this is not true for everyone. Your implication is that anybody who has any type of a psychological disorder is prone to have depression. That is too broad a statement, and is not true in every situation.
>
> I never took Klonopin for panic ... Xanax was working fine, but my pdoc suggested Klonopin as a substitute since it is a longer-lasting benzo.
>
> There are many internet sites that mention depression as a potential side effect of Klonopin. I don't wish to continue rehashing this issue here, but if you wish to discuss it further feel free to email me.
>
> Louise
>
>
> > > Rick,
> > >
> > > I honestly don't understand why people get so
> > defensive when I and others point out this
> > potential side effect with Klonopin. No, Klonopin
> > can actually cause depression in some people. I
> > didn't know anything about Klonopin until after
> > several successful years of taking Xanax and
> > deciding that I wanted to try the longer-lasting
> > Klonopin. My pdoc placed me on Klonopin with
> > absolutely no information or warnings about it.
> > >
> > > If I were depressed, my pdoc would have me on
> > anti-depression medication, but that has never
> > been my problem. I have general anxiety disorder,
> > and even though I have always done adequately
> > socially, my social life has greatly improved
> > since the anxiety is under control.
> > >
> > > Why can't you just tell people that for some
> > reason depression can be a potential side effect
> > with a small percentage of people who take
> > Klonopin? It bothers me greatly when people
> > assume that only those who are "depression-prone"
> > will get it. That simply is not always the case.
> > >
> > > Louise
> > >
> > >
> > Louise -
> >
> > Why does it always seem we're always arguing when we bascically agree? Again, I concur that Klonopin can indeed cause depression in some people. And yes, it is more likely to do so than, say, Xanax. I was just trying to put some relevant context around this fact, namely that the people in whom Klonopin induces depression already suffer some kind of chronic mental disorder (GAD would certainly qualify) or physical illness, which -- as any pdoc would agree -- makes them more prone to depression a priori. Why else would they be taking Klonopin?
> >
> > Do you know some study of the side effects of Klonopin on volunteers with no chronic physical illness, mental disorder, or history of illicit drug use? If so, please share.
> >
> > P.S. Unfortunately, I won't have any time to "babble" for awhile, so if you wish to continue this discussion, I won't be able to respond.
> > ----
> > > > Louise -
> > > >
> > > > I don't think my phrase "depression prone" was
> > wrong so much as redundant. Anyone with a chronic
> > disorder or illness, be it mental (panic disorder,
> > social phobia) or physical (heart disease,
> > diabetes, Pakinson's) is statistically more likely
> > to have or develop clinical depression. And if
> > you're taking Klonopin, then you certainly have a
> > chronic illness or disorder of some sort. So, in
> > a sense this POTENTIAL side effect of Klonopin is
> > more precisely a "potentiator" than a "cause".
> > And that certainly is a valid consideration (one
> > of many) to throw in the hopper when choosing
> > meds.
> > > >
> > > > From medical journal articles I've read, the
> > general wisdom seems to be that panic sufferers
> > are among the most prone to this potential side
> > effect. Isn't that what you were taking Klonopin
> > for?
> > > >
> > > > Several related ironies:
> > > > -- Klonopin is often used short-term to
> > potentiate anti-depressants
> > > > -- Depression is listed as a possible side
> > effect
> > > > for most anti-depressants. One study of
> > 240
> > > > panic sufferers showed a fairly high
> > > > incidence of depression as a side-effect of
> > > > SSRI's (incidentally, Klonopin did not
> > induce
> > > > depression in any of the subjects).
> > > > -- Many other drugs list depression as a
> > possible
> > > > side effect, including beta blockers and
> > > > dopamine agonists used in Parkinson's (and
> > off-
> > > > label for psychotropic purposes).
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Rick
> > > > ----
> > > > > Rick,
> > > > >
> > > > > I'd like to point out that Klonopin doesn't
> > necessarily *encourage* depression in
> > "depression-prone people". By all accounts I've
> > read and every pdoc I've talked with, Klonopin can
> > actually *cause* depression in SOME people.
> > Although I don't take an A/D and never had ongoing
> > depression previously, I developed severe
> > depression while on Klonopin. According to a pdoc
> > whose opinion I respect, the percentage rate for
> > developing depression on Klonopin is fairly high.
> > I'm not trying to scare anyone who wants to try
> > Klonopin because it can work wonders, but if you
> > do try it be aware that depression can be a
> > potential side effect just in case it happens to
> > you.
> > > > >
> > > > > Louise
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > I'd stop here, but must add one very
> > important note: Unlike you, I do not suffer from
> > depression. Klonopin alone certainly won't treat
> > depression, and in fact in some depression-prone
> > people may actually *encourage* depression after
> > extended usage. Have you tried Serzone or Manerix
> > (not available in U.S., but doc can order from
> > Canada)? These tend to have fewer side effects,
> > especially sexually and weight-related, although
> > some people find Serzone sedating; have both
> > supposedly shown some degree of benefit for Social
> > Phobia; and can both be used with Klonopin. Also,
> > if you are not sensitive to its side effects (such
> > as dizziness or fatigue -- NOT sexual problems)
> > the GAD med BuSpar is said to be an effective
> > *antidepressant* at high doses (min 60-90 mg).
> > Indeed, there is some anecdotal evidence that
> > HIGH-DOSE BuSpar can help alleviate Social Phobia.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Good luck to you.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Rick
> > > > > > -----
> > > > > > > Hi,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Have spent the weekend researching
> > new/old meds for my GAD/Social Phobia/Depression.
> > I have tried just about all the SSRI's. Effexor
> > was probably gave me the least amount of effects
> > however if the benefits had been good I would
> > still be on it. I have gone for a long period
> > without medication and am now ready to try again.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I would sure appreciate info on
> > clonazepam, dosages, effects, withdrawal,
> > long-term use, benefits. I am interested in this
> > one because it is the least upsetting to the
> > system. I am just in no mood to deal with weight
> > gain, dizzyness and all that crap again.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks guys for your support.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Michele

 

Re: Clonazepam Trial for Social Phobia

Posted by Louise on December 14, 1999, at 6:55:03

In reply to Re: Clonazepam Trial for Social Phobia, posted by Rick on December 14, 1999, at 0:46:50

Peace, Rick,

And I agree with you for the most part. But anybody who has depression along with panic and anxiety had it BEFORE seeking treatment with medication ... not AFTER or as a result of.

Goodness! Can we be friends now!?

Louise


> OY!
>
> Louise, didn't I AGREE with you that Klonopin CAN cause depression in some people, and that it IS more likely to do so than Xanax? What do you want, a notorized statement?
>
> Where I HAVE erred (twice) is in using the word "prone". This word is probably too strong and may WRONGLY suggest that someone with GAD, panic, or another disorder is almost a "sure bet" to suffer depression at some point. A better way for me to put it would have been to say that there is a "high rate of comorbidity between anxiety disorders and depression". That statement does NOT, I repeat, does NOT say that MOST people with panic or GAD develop depression at some point. It says only that someone with a chronic, clinical anxiety disorder is significantly more *likely* to develop depression at some point than the average person would be. And I dare you to find me any reputable mental health specialist who disagrees with that assertion. It's about as NON-controversial as you can possibly get.
>
> Now, who was that saying something about "defensive"?
>
> ----
> > Rick,
> >
> > I never had depression before and I never had depression after I started taking Xanax. I've been taking 1.5-2 mg. of Xanax daily for over 3 years. I developed depression for the first time after taking Klonopin over a period of 6 months. After I discontinued Klonopin, the depression went away.
> >
> > Some people who have panic disorder and general anxiety disorder will also have depression. They usually take an anti-anxiety agent as well as an anti-depressant. However, this is not true for everyone. Your implication is that anybody who has any type of a psychological disorder is prone to have depression. That is too broad a statement, and is not true in every situation.
> >
> > I never took Klonopin for panic ... Xanax was working fine, but my pdoc suggested Klonopin as a substitute since it is a longer-lasting benzo.
> >
> > There are many internet sites that mention depression as a potential side effect of Klonopin. I don't wish to continue rehashing this issue here, but if you wish to discuss it further feel free to email me.
> >
> > Louise
> >
> >
> > > > Rick,
> > > >
> > > > I honestly don't understand why people get so
> > > defensive when I and others point out this
> > > potential side effect with Klonopin. No, Klonopin
> > > can actually cause depression in some people. I
> > > didn't know anything about Klonopin until after
> > > several successful years of taking Xanax and
> > > deciding that I wanted to try the longer-lasting
> > > Klonopin. My pdoc placed me on Klonopin with
> > > absolutely no information or warnings about it.
> > > >
> > > > If I were depressed, my pdoc would have me on
> > > anti-depression medication, but that has never
> > > been my problem. I have general anxiety disorder,
> > > and even though I have always done adequately
> > > socially, my social life has greatly improved
> > > since the anxiety is under control.
> > > >
> > > > Why can't you just tell people that for some
> > > reason depression can be a potential side effect
> > > with a small percentage of people who take
> > > Klonopin? It bothers me greatly when people
> > > assume that only those who are "depression-prone"
> > > will get it. That simply is not always the case.
> > > >
> > > > Louise
> > > >
> > > >
> > > Louise -
> > >
> > > Why does it always seem we're always arguing when we bascically agree? Again, I concur that Klonopin can indeed cause depression in some people. And yes, it is more likely to do so than, say, Xanax. I was just trying to put some relevant context around this fact, namely that the people in whom Klonopin induces depression already suffer some kind of chronic mental disorder (GAD would certainly qualify) or physical illness, which -- as any pdoc would agree -- makes them more prone to depression a priori. Why else would they be taking Klonopin?
> > >
> > > Do you know some study of the side effects of Klonopin on volunteers with no chronic physical illness, mental disorder, or history of illicit drug use? If so, please share.
> > >
> > > P.S. Unfortunately, I won't have any time to "babble" for awhile, so if you wish to continue this discussion, I won't be able to respond.
> > > ----
> > > > > Louise -
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't think my phrase "depression prone" was
> > > wrong so much as redundant. Anyone with a chronic
> > > disorder or illness, be it mental (panic disorder,
> > > social phobia) or physical (heart disease,
> > > diabetes, Pakinson's) is statistically more likely
> > > to have or develop clinical depression. And if
> > > you're taking Klonopin, then you certainly have a
> > > chronic illness or disorder of some sort. So, in
> > > a sense this POTENTIAL side effect of Klonopin is
> > > more precisely a "potentiator" than a "cause".
> > > And that certainly is a valid consideration (one
> > > of many) to throw in the hopper when choosing
> > > meds.
> > > > >
> > > > > From medical journal articles I've read, the
> > > general wisdom seems to be that panic sufferers
> > > are among the most prone to this potential side
> > > effect. Isn't that what you were taking Klonopin
> > > for?
> > > > >
> > > > > Several related ironies:
> > > > > -- Klonopin is often used short-term to
> > > potentiate anti-depressants
> > > > > -- Depression is listed as a possible side
> > > effect
> > > > > for most anti-depressants. One study of
> > > 240
> > > > > panic sufferers showed a fairly high
> > > > > incidence of depression as a side-effect of
> > > > > SSRI's (incidentally, Klonopin did not
> > > induce
> > > > > depression in any of the subjects).
> > > > > -- Many other drugs list depression as a
> > > possible
> > > > > side effect, including beta blockers and
> > > > > dopamine agonists used in Parkinson's (and
> > > off-
> > > > > label for psychotropic purposes).
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Rick
> > > > > ----
> > > > > > Rick,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'd like to point out that Klonopin doesn't
> > > necessarily *encourage* depression in
> > > "depression-prone people". By all accounts I've
> > > read and every pdoc I've talked with, Klonopin can
> > > actually *cause* depression in SOME people.
> > > Although I don't take an A/D and never had ongoing
> > > depression previously, I developed severe
> > > depression while on Klonopin. According to a pdoc
> > > whose opinion I respect, the percentage rate for
> > > developing depression on Klonopin is fairly high.
> > > I'm not trying to scare anyone who wants to try
> > > Klonopin because it can work wonders, but if you
> > > do try it be aware that depression can be a
> > > potential side effect just in case it happens to
> > > you.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Louise
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > I'd stop here, but must add one very
> > > important note: Unlike you, I do not suffer from
> > > depression. Klonopin alone certainly won't treat
> > > depression, and in fact in some depression-prone
> > > people may actually *encourage* depression after
> > > extended usage. Have you tried Serzone or Manerix
> > > (not available in U.S., but doc can order from
> > > Canada)? These tend to have fewer side effects,
> > > especially sexually and weight-related, although
> > > some people find Serzone sedating; have both
> > > supposedly shown some degree of benefit for Social
> > > Phobia; and can both be used with Klonopin. Also,
> > > if you are not sensitive to its side effects (such
> > > as dizziness or fatigue -- NOT sexual problems)
> > > the GAD med BuSpar is said to be an effective
> > > *antidepressant* at high doses (min 60-90 mg).
> > > Indeed, there is some anecdotal evidence that
> > > HIGH-DOSE BuSpar can help alleviate Social Phobia.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Good luck to you.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Rick
> > > > > > > -----
> > > > > > > > Hi,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Have spent the weekend researching
> > > new/old meds for my GAD/Social Phobia/Depression.
> > > I have tried just about all the SSRI's. Effexor
> > > was probably gave me the least amount of effects
> > > however if the benefits had been good I would
> > > still be on it. I have gone for a long period
> > > without medication and am now ready to try again.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I would sure appreciate info on
> > > clonazepam, dosages, effects, withdrawal,
> > > long-term use, benefits. I am interested in this
> > > one because it is the least upsetting to the
> > > system. I am just in no mood to deal with weight
> > > gain, dizzyness and all that crap again.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Thanks guys for your support.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Michele

 

So, Michelle ...

Posted by Bob (yes, I still exist) on December 24, 1999, at 10:41:44

In reply to Re: Clonazepam Trial for Social Phobia, posted by Louise on December 14, 1999, at 6:55:03

... since this *is* your thread, inquiring minds what to know!!

Did you do the clonazepam trial? How did it work? C'mon, give us the dish!

Cheers,
Bob


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