Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 16372

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Prozac/Ami/Adderall/Wellbutrin & still suicidal

Posted by dove on December 7, 1999, at 8:56:06

My P-doc has added 150mgs of Wellbutrin (bupropion) to the mix, I take it in the afternoon, when my Adderall wears off. So, I am actually feeling worse than before, very suicidal, having a very difficult time convincing myself that I am *not* the worst thing for my kids. I have been taking the 20mgs of Prozac in the morning with 20mgs of Adderall, another 20mgs Adderall around noon, by 4pm my eyes are tearing up every couple of minutes, this keeps up 'til I take my amitriptyline and go to bed. I have also been sitting in the dark, unable to meet anyone's eyes.

My P-doc feels that the Prozac and Adderall have had a positive response from me because I clean the house all the time and have less anxiety and panic attacks. I truly feel on the edge of no return, I've told him, this is probably the worst low I've had since I was a teenager. I didn't take the prozac this morning, I know the half-life is long, so it may have no effect for however long into the future.

Here is my question, is there anyway to tell if the wellbutrin might eventually help alone, or should I just keep taking the med combo that the dr. ordered and hope for the best? I literally don't think I can take it, and I don't know which med is causing the hopelessness, it started about a month into the prozac and has only worsened, will the Wellbutrin kick in soon? And will it help or actually throw me over the edge?

dove

 

Re: my Wellbutrin response(sorry it's long)

Posted by CarolAnn on December 7, 1999, at 11:31:03

In reply to Prozac/Ami/Adderall/Wellbutrin & still suicidal, posted by dove on December 7, 1999, at 8:56:06

hey dove, slight coincidense here, I just wrote a post(new thread) about starting(today) with adding Adderall to the 400mgs./day of Wellbutrin I have been taking. I have the opposite problem though, I am always so tired as to be practically comatose, consequently, my house hasn't been cleaned in six months, making me feel like an absolute failure as a wife & mother(stay at home,yet!)
Wellbutrin is supposed to be an "activating" drug, which doesn't quite seem to be something you need, *but* I'm not the Dr. As far as how long it takes to "help", when I started it my Pdoc said that it was one of several drugs that really need at least a 12week trial before determining effectiveness(I have 4wks to go!).
If you can stand it, you probably should stay on the Prozac, because another Pdoc told me that Wellbutrin & Prozac are often *very* effective together. Actually, I just remembered that I stopped Prozac when I started Wellbutrin and the result was a gain of 15 pounds in 6 wks, which turned out to be a result of loss of serotonin(I had uncontrollable sweets & carbohydrate cravings, foods which are known to *increase* serotonin). Pdoc then added Serzone, which increased my already excessive fatigue(am now tapering *off*serzone for this reason). Anyway, after taking your current combo for a while, maybe you can discuss changing or stopping Prozac. My thinking is that since you have excessive energy maybe your Pdoc should consider switching from Prozac to Serzone(which also has some anti-anxiety effect). Best of Luck! and I hope you will keep posting updates! I'm sorry I don't have anything real concrete to add. I know exactly what it's like to be absolutely sure that you can't take anymore of this! You can though, if nothing else, you will do it for the same reason I do, I simply refuse to inflict the baggage, of a mom who committed suicide, on my child.And, no matter how bad a mother I think I am, I won't risk an even worse "step"mom raising my child. CarolAnn

 

((((((((((((((((((((((((DOVE))))))))))))))))))))))

Posted by Noa on December 7, 1999, at 15:15:00

In reply to Prozac/Ami/Adderall/Wellbutrin & still suicidal, posted by dove on December 7, 1999, at 8:56:06

Dove!!!

Have to read and write quickly, am in a rush at the moment, but I HAD to write when I saw your post. Please hang in there. You have been there for me and others, please know that we are here for you.
Will be back tonight to write more.
Noa

 

Re: Prozac/Ami/Adderall/Wellbutrin & still suicidal

Posted by noa on December 7, 1999, at 20:34:26

In reply to Prozac/Ami/Adderall/Wellbutrin & still suicidal, posted by dove on December 7, 1999, at 8:56:06

Dove, in reading your post again, I find it hard to sort out the timing of your moods and meds. Could you give us a timeline of what you have taken, and when you added any meds or stopped others, and what your moods were?

Also, I wonder if the holidays are a source of blues for you, too?

 

Re: Prozac/Ami/Adderall/Wellbutrin & still suicidal

Posted by Noa on December 7, 1999, at 20:54:32

In reply to Re: Prozac/Ami/Adderall/Wellbutrin & still suicidal, posted by noa on December 7, 1999, at 20:34:26

Dove, keep writing to us, it might help. I am concerned about you.

 

Re: Prozac/Ami/Adderall/Wellbutrin & still suicidal

Posted by dove on December 7, 1999, at 22:57:26

In reply to Re: Prozac/Ami/Adderall/Wellbutrin & still suicidal, posted by Noa on December 7, 1999, at 20:54:32

Noa, you are the kindest woman in the world, I am alive, I went to the P-doc this afternoon and took out the prozac, which I was on for 6-7 weeks and the wellbutrin, only taken it for 4 days. I will see the doc on thursday, I feel better already, just from not taking the prozac and wellbutrin, I hope I don't fall apart tomorrow, but will update properly tomorrow. Noa, thank you so much, and CarolAnn thanks to you too!

dove

 

Re: Prozac/Ami/Adderall/Wellbutrin & still suicidal

Posted by JohnL(long) on December 8, 1999, at 3:36:40

In reply to Prozac/Ami/Adderall/Wellbutrin & still suicidal, posted by dove on December 7, 1999, at 8:56:06

Dove, I'm so sorry you're feeling so bad. I know it doesn't help enough, but I can sure relate. It brings tears to my eyes to remember that awful feeling. I'm kind of there right now, but not as severe. I can feel your pain like it was my own. I know that pain intimately. I'm hoping this day will be a smooth one for you.

Adderall can and does cause depression in some people. It is a listed side effect. It's not a common side effect, but it does happen. It hardly ever happens with Prozac. Maybe one or both just aren't good for you. In your shoes I "challenged" the drugs by removing them one at a time. I tried to get my doc's OK, but nope. She had too much ego to admit one of the drugs she put me on might have been a bad choice. But I am ultimately in control of myself. No one knows myself or my pain better than me. I found out quickly that one of the drugs was indeed causing my condition to worsen. I felt better and better as I withdrew it. Bingo! It was drug induced! After being off it completely, and feeling much better, the REAL depression (not the drug-induced one) slowly crept back on-stage. But by then I had had relief and I was ready to make another go of it...with a totally different drug.

I have to disagree with your pdoc. Cleaning house a lot, less panic, less anxiety...big whoopie. Is that what he's treating you for? To make you more physically active? Any "speed" like Adderral can do that. Again, big whoopie. He pats himself on the back for helping you be more active cleaning, with less panic, all the while getting more suicidally depressed? Something's really wrong with this picture. In your shoes, with or without the doc's OK, I would and have made efforts to identify which drug(s) was making me worse. That's not appropriate for everyone. But for me, I was already at the bottom of the barrel, I had nothing to lose and everything to gain. At least now I can stay clear of drugs with similar mechanism that are likely to make me worse. I am suggesting you call the doc about "challenging" the drugs you are taking before complicating the mix in adding another one. This seems prudent to me, because if the Adderral is indeed at fault, the Wellbutrin with its similar mechanism might only make things worse. Have you already noticed that?

Sometimes taking a step back is actually better than taking a step forward. Sometimes taking a temporary step back is ultimately the same as taking huge leaps forward, in the long run. You know what I mean? Like the turtle and the hare? And sometimes throwing another drug in the mix is NOT taking a good step forward at all. Good intentions, yes. But what worth are good intentions with lousy results? I am suggesting you call the doc to challenge your current drugs to see what's doing what before moving on. I am highly suspect of the Adderall. If you're at all like me, you'll be amazed at the improvement of removing an offending drug. THEN move on to new ones. I think we need to know more about what's going on before complicating things further. Worsening of depression is one thing, but worsening of depression while on antidepressants is a whole different story. It just smells to me like you are experiencing a drug-induced worsening of symptoms, NOT JUST a worsening of symptoms. Just my experience, but I know I'm not the only one. Many of us get worse on certain drugs. If for example you stop Adderall for a week and notice your suicidal feelings going away, then you'll know. There's no way to know without challenging them. I hope your pdoc will work with you on this. Truly hoping you have a smooth day of relief. Sorry for lengthy post. JohnL

Sorry to go so long here. JohnL

 

Re: John's post

Posted by Noa on December 8, 1999, at 15:34:54

In reply to Re: Prozac/Ami/Adderall/Wellbutrin & still suicidal, posted by JohnL(long) on December 8, 1999, at 3:36:40

John, couldn't help noticing the wee hour of your post. Are you having difficulty sleeping? I have been there at times. At the moment, tending to sleep thru the night better because of increased serzone dose. How are you?

 

I agree with John's post

Posted by MA on December 8, 1999, at 23:15:02

In reply to Re: John's post, posted by Noa on December 8, 1999, at 15:34:54

Dove,

When I was on Zoloft, so many years ago, I got much more suicidal as I increased the dosage. Instead of feeling better, I was getting worse with each increase. I reached a point where I said to my doctor I am feeling so much worse than I did when starting zoloft. He kept telling me it was the depression, but at some point I said to him, no it's the medication that is making me suicidal. He finally listened.
As I weaned off it I felt better and better.

So, the moral of that story, is trust how you feel. If you think a drug is making you worse, it probably is not the right one.

Some doctors fail to see this happening. And when we feel so miserable and don't trust our judgements, it's so much harder to get that critical point across to them. But it is critical that they listen to us and trust our judgement because it is a matter of life or death.

Hope you are feeling better real soon.

MA

 

Re: docs meds and thanks.(long..)

Posted by dove on December 9, 1999, at 8:30:32

In reply to I agree with John's post, posted by MA on December 8, 1999, at 23:15:02

I will be seeing the P-doc in a couple hours. I have not taken the prozac or wellbutrin since tuesday and feel so much better. When I went in on tuesday my doc tried to commit me to inpatient, I almost went ballistic, deep breathing and extreme voice control, as to not scream at him helped. He essentially told me that none, not one, of his patients has ever reacted to prozac like this and he believes the problem is me. I asked him why I couldn't use a mood-stabilizer with the anti-depressant and looked at me like I was speaking a different language.

My husband is strongly encouraging me to get a second opinion but I'm afraid of switching docs and possibly receiving another long list of *diagnoses* and meds. I don't know, I do know that when I try to be honest and tell them how I am doing they just want to lock me up. This is why I never sought help the previous 20 years or so.

I do feel like the holidays is adding another demension to the depression/frustration but the prozac was numbing me to the point where I couldn't even talk to my kids or husband and had completely stopped laughing or interacting with anyone. I couldn't even write until I actually decided to stop taking it, then I was like in overdrive. My birthday was on tuesday, had completely spaced it, then realized when I wrote on the board and kinda woke-up.

The Adderall and Amitriptyline have been in place for quite awhile, with no real negative side-effects. I have struggled with depression (suicidal ideation) for most of my life, so that was the reason for the Prozac, kind of a preventive before the holidays. I started Prozac-20 mgs around Nov. 5th, added wellbutrin-150mgs on Dec. 3rd. The depression hit me so hard and out-of-nowhere that I thought it was me not the meds.

I am still having crying-jags, little bouts of anger, then sadness, then hopelessness, promptly followed by "what the heck is wrong with me, life is great." The moods change so quick, like 20 seconds inbetween the extremes, and I am afraid to tell the doc because he might lock me up.

I am truly gratefull to all of you for your concern and support. You all are heaven-sent and I can't thank you all enough. I send my deepest thanks and blessings to all of you, thank you.

dove

 

Re: docs meds and thanks.(long..)

Posted by S. Suggs on December 9, 1999, at 9:05:18

In reply to Re: docs meds and thanks.(long..), posted by dove on December 9, 1999, at 8:30:32

Dove,

I agree with the advice that you need a second opinion. Mood stabilizers are written all the time with ad's. Lithium is probably the number one. If he gave you that strange look with the request for a mood stabilizer, he is way off. Lithium is a wonderful drug, safe and proven.

Blessings,

S. Suggs

 

Re: docs meds and thanks.(long..)

Posted by Noa on December 9, 1999, at 11:26:27

In reply to Re: docs meds and thanks.(long..), posted by S. Suggs on December 9, 1999, at 9:05:18

I second that.

Get another opinion. You seem to have a chronic or cycling depression.

Also, ADs plus mood stabilizers are used all the time. I am on 2 ADs, lithium, and 2 thyroid meds.

If you go to a second doc who drives you nuts with a whole slew of new dxes, you can always consult a third. Anyway, the dx is not that much of an issue. Focus more on the symptoms, the patterns of when the symptoms occur. Give a detailed history of what meds you have tried and your reactions to them, and find a doc who will try to figure this puzzle out with you.

 

Hi Dove,

Posted by Janice on December 9, 1999, at 15:09:16

In reply to Re: docs meds and thanks.(long..), posted by Noa on December 9, 1999, at 11:26:27

I'm sorry to hear you're feeling so bad. I'm remember communicating with you before, as we have many of the same problems (although I'm as stable as I've ever been right now - which doesn't really say that much). I think you're right on track with the mood stabilizer.

I certainly know where you're coming from when you implied it takes all your energy to 'act normal' and not flip out at people. This is my life...where the majority of my energy goes...acting normal and struggling to do things normal people don't even think about (eat, sleep, get the f*** out of bed, show up places on time, make small talk, clean).

I'm trying to get a new doctor, which has been constantly pissing me off. If I go to see my new doctor, I can write the rest of the day off as I'm too angry to do anything else, but the thought of finding another freaks me out too. Lately, I've been thinking they are actually bureaucrats, who happen to wear white coats and have a degree in science (I'm in Canada - it's probably different in the States). Anyways, yes, try to get yourself on a mood stabilizer. As I told Noa, I felt the effects of lithium on the third day. It stops my highs (& much irritability), lessens the extent of my lows (the bottom of my life no longer falls out), and lessens my '20 second mood changes' that happen during the day. I believe it's saved my life. Take care of yourself Dove. I'll be thinking of you. Keep us informed, Janice.

 

Re: No Janice, there is no difference...

Posted by CarolAnn on December 10, 1999, at 7:35:54

In reply to Hi Dove,, posted by Janice on December 9, 1999, at 15:09:16

in the United States! The whole thing is a beaurocracy here too(due to something called,"managed care"). It's all about the insurance. When I needed a second opinion, my insurance would not let me go to a different psychiatric practice. I had to just pick another Pdoc in the same practice. Well, Duh! of course, they are not going to say that one of "their own" did anything wrong. Even though it was obvious that the first Pdoc really didn't know what she was doing! I still ended up with a pretty good Pdoc(so far!), but was very,very, frustrated by the whole "search for a second opinion" experience! Best Wishes!CarolAnn

 

Dove!

Posted by Bob on December 12, 1999, at 20:00:14

In reply to Re: No Janice, there is no difference..., posted by CarolAnn on December 10, 1999, at 7:35:54

Sorry I haven't been around, Dove, to jump in earlier.

You on prozac sounds like me on paxil. I don't care what all the pharmaceutical companies and studies and sunshine-blowing SSRI advocates out there want to propagandize about, some people just don't respond well to SSRIs. It took me 2.5 years to find that out. I'm glad you jumped off them sooner than that!

I'm on a TCA, too (nortriptyline), and since I've been off zoloft many aspects (not all) of my life are better. If you're having problems with panic attacks and/or anxiety, why hasn't your pdoc suggested a benzo? It looks like a number of us here at Babble are on nortrip/klonopin ... like I said, it's been better than any of the new Ubermeds that get all the airtime of late.

I hope you're continuing to improve ... and hang in there (everybody out there, too) -- the holidays will be over in just a few weeks. We can make it through this.

Bob

 

Re: Prozac/Ami/Adderall/Wellbutrin & still suicidal

Posted by Tom on December 17, 1999, at 21:27:39

In reply to Prozac/Ami/Adderall/Wellbutrin & still suicidal, posted by dove on December 7, 1999, at 8:56:06

>Time for a new Pdoc. Its obvious your meds are not right. When I had a negative reaction on a certain med and told the doc he would always say the same thing...that he had never seen or heard of that before and blamed it on me! What a total prick! Anyway, you know yourself best. Sounds like too many drugs in the mix, and your Pdoc is sitting on his pedestal blaming you. Time to knock him down (at least a notch or two).

 

Re: Prozac/Ami/Adderall/Wellbutrin & still suicidal

Posted by anna on December 20, 1999, at 22:30:50

In reply to Re: Prozac/Ami/Adderall/Wellbutrin & still suicidal, posted by JohnL(long) on December 8, 1999, at 3:36:40

Dove--New doc time. It's hard--took me a year to get a second opinion on meds (and I adore and highly respect my prior p-doc).

Try a woman doc...please!

Sorry boys, but even in this enlightened age a FEW (ahem) male docs see women as hysterics. He's GLAD you're cleaning the house? I have ADD, on adderall too--but not so I can clean (It's definately NOT working if it's supposed to make me a better housekeeper!)

Hang in there.

 

Re: Prozac/Ami/Adderall/Wellbutrin & still suicidal

Posted by alan on December 26, 1999, at 4:36:34

In reply to Prozac/Ami/Adderall/Wellbutrin & still suicidal, posted by dove on December 7, 1999, at 8:56:06

I'm jumping in without having read the whole thread, so I may be way off. If so, sorry. One, it seems to me that you may need a third dose of Adderall at 4. If it interferes with sleep and this effect does not go away, well, then you'll know. Welbutrin and all other ADs take 3-6 weeks or more to make a difference. Now to something very frustrating, indeed exasperating. We have a need, especially when under great stress, to think we or our experts really understand what they are doing. As a result we say such unsubstantiated things as that say. SSRI's work by increasing the seratonin in our brains. Actually, SSRI's and other ADs do increase the probability that certain switches in a complex circuit will close. We do not know which switches, since we do not know which switches among the billons of switches in the multitude of circuits are going to be affected by even drugs that affect the same neurotransmitter in test tubes, and we do not know how many types of receptors there are for each kind of neurotransmitter and which SSRis are most likely to affect which subsets. We don't know what else the different SSRIs do; they do flick switches with a greater or lesser probability that are not flicked by seratonin; they also affect the metablism of many other kinds of chemicals relevant and not relevant to mood. And when these unknown effects of the SSRIs flip all their switches, the probabilities of switching on or off maybe millions of other switches are effected. As if this were not enough, brains are as individual as we are, billions of variations creating the bewildering diversity of human personalities. It is important to acknowledge these immense imponderable complexities, because IF WE DO NOT, WE ASSUME A SIMPLISTICALLY SMALL SET OF POSSIBILITIES AND GIVE UP HOPE WHEN WE THINK THEY HAVE BEEN EHAUSTED, OR WE LOSE FAITH IN DOCTORS FOR NOT FINDING SIMPLE ANSWERS QUICKLY.
The good news is that, to quote Einstein, "The Lord is subtle, but not maliscious." We do learn, and we do manage to COPE WITH THE COMPLEXITY THAT KEEPS US IGNORANT. If we stick with it, the probability that we will not be freed of our suffering by some medication or combination of meds approaches zero; this cam take much time and each minute can seem intolerably long to one in pain, but in fact in a reasonable amount of time we get our lives back.


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