Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 14368

Shown: posts 11 to 35 of 126. Go back in thread:

 

Re: Depression, Evolution...

Posted by Bob on November 11, 1999, at 18:52:51

In reply to Re: Depression, Evolution..., posted by Phil on November 11, 1999, at 7:28:40

This being Cosmic Day (11/11), I'd like to remind you all of the four Cosmic Keys to Life. Comprehend these fully, and then you'll be ready for the Next Level:

All Corn is Physical.
All Pizza is Tropical.
All Fish are Numerical.
All Dick is Proverbial.

Amazing what wisdom can come out of 20 or so college sophomores on too much beer, weed, and shrooms for far too long. (No, not me ... I had to stay sober so someone could write down their ramblings and preserve them for posterity.)

Adam's post about a God without any of the accessories makes me wonder ... perhaps we're just some sort of biomechanical recording device. He collects us up, downloads the data, then into the shredder and off to the recycling plant ....

Happy Cosmic Day
Bob

 

Re: Depression, Evolution...

Posted by Adam on November 11, 1999, at 20:50:40

In reply to Re: Depression, Evolution..., posted by Bob on November 11, 1999, at 18:52:51

Oh, Bob, it's just a point of view, and relevant to the thread. I am no longer a college sophomore (unfortunately) nor a graduated one
in most respects. It's meant say I think there's hope for atheists, and that atheists think about God. If you find such a point debatable,
debate it. I'm not hurt, but I don't think insults are constructive or in the spirit of this site. If you feel what I have posted is meant
as an affront, call me on it in those terms, and I'll try to do better. If you don't like my style or the things I try to share, don't read them.
I undertand I can take strong viewpoints, and that I'm not always right. I actually like being told I am wrong by knowledgeable people because
I learn something whether I am or not. I've learned nothing from this post, and hence it will make no impression on me, or change my views
or manner in the slightest. It's a waste.

> This being Cosmic Day (11/11), I'd like to remind you all of the four Cosmic Keys to Life. Comprehend these fully, and then you'll be ready for the Next Level:
>
> All Corn is Physical.
> All Pizza is Tropical.
> All Fish are Numerical.
> All Dick is Proverbial.
>
> Amazing what wisdom can come out of 20 or so college sophomores on too much beer, weed, and shrooms for far too long. (No, not me ... I had to stay sober so someone could write down their ramblings and preserve them for posterity.)
>
> Adam's post about a God without any of the accessories makes me wonder ... perhaps we're just some sort of biomechanical recording device. He collects us up, downloads the data, then into the shredder and off to the recycling plant ....
>
> Happy Cosmic Day
> Bob

 

Re: Depression, Evolution...

Posted by Bob on November 11, 1999, at 23:21:33

In reply to Re: Depression, Evolution..., posted by Adam on November 11, 1999, at 20:50:40

Adam, could you please just relax! This is the third time in a little over a week you've reacted this way to one of my posts. I'm not out to flame you every time you write something ... I don't object to what you've been writing, and I truly do have better things to do than pick on people at random from this board. I'm sorry for whatever I'm saying that makes you keep reacting this way -- so if you have some problem with what I've been posting, just email me ... if I objected to the mail, I wouldn't post my address.

With the black and white nature of etext and its complete lack of inflection or any other non-verbal cuing, plus the fact that this mode of communication is asynchronous and that can screw any sense of context as well, it's really easy to misconstrue the connotation of people's posts. So try not to assume the worst from the start ... it's often the opposite of what the author intends.

Sorry folks,
Bob

 

Re: Depression, Evolution...

Posted by Centrist Christian on November 12, 1999, at 3:24:06

In reply to Re: Depression, Evolution..., posted by Bob on November 11, 1999, at 23:21:33

> Adam, could you please just relax! This is the third time in a little over a week you've reacted this way to one of my posts. I'm not out to flame you every time you write something ... I don't object to what you've been writing, and I truly do have better things to do than pick on people at random from this board. I'm sorry for whatever I'm saying that makes you keep reacting this way -- so if you have some problem with what I've been posting, just email me ... if I objected to the mail, I wouldn't post my address.
>
> With the black and white nature of etext and its complete lack of inflection or any other non-verbal cuing, plus the fact that this mode of communication is asynchronous and that can screw any sense of context as well, it's really easy to misconstrue the connotation of people's posts. So try not to assume the worst from the start ... it's often the opposite of what the author intends.
>
> Sorry folks,
> Bob


I'm not sure I know how this chat works. I don't think God made any mistakes. In Genesis he gave "man" free-will. "Man" choose to rebel and got kicked out of the "Garden". I have had long bouts of depression in the past. I wonder whats at the root of it? Does your depression revolve around any particular issue? For me it did. I had to resolve this issue the best I could over a long period of time, and it is still with me to an extent. I think depression involves a certain amount of narcissism, or inflated ego, or unhealthy self-importance. I messed with fringe spirituality and cannot recommend it. I think it is self destructive in the end. Christianity for me gave mechanisms for and helped to make sense of experiences that scientific rationalism doesn't. One man's id impulse is another man's demon. The labeling doesn't change the nature of the beast. I can't say for sure that anyone else's depression had the same root cause as mine, no one can really know the experience of another, but if it revolves around
one central issue, come to terms with it the best you can, and move on. Grieving over spilled milk will not fill the cup back up.

 

Re: Depression, Evolution...

Posted by Elizabeth on November 12, 1999, at 13:39:41

In reply to Depression, Evolution..., posted by Adam on November 10, 1999, at 22:30:02

Adam,

I didn't get from Bob's post that he was angry at you. I think it was intended to be humour. (I certainly laughed at both Bob's and Phil's posts. Thanks, guys.)

From a "serious" POV, this is an interesting topic, too.

> I always thought Pascal's wager (the idea that it was in fact rational
> to believe in God because the stakes were so high-to be pious and wrong
> is to have lost a finite span of amoral licenteousness, to be athiest
> and wrong is to face eternal damnation) could be turned on its ear as
> an argument against faith: to reward a life's span with eternal bliss
> or affliction is unjust in either case because to reward or punish any
> finite thing with an infinite thing is to make something out of nothing.

I think the flaw (well, a flaw) in Pascal's wager is that it assumes that faith is something you can just switch on or off. I honestly don't think I could believe in the supernatural even if I wanted to.

> It occurred to me that even if there was a God, there could be no heaven
> or hell, no afterlife really, and no reason to pray.
>
> There is reason to live, though, because life, bad or good, is all I
> had.

I have some number of years to be alive and conscious, and for me that is enough. To tell the truth, eternal bliss sounds like it could be a bit dull. (How does the saying go - "heaven for the climate, hell for the company?")

Also - I had a discussion with my roommate about this recently - I'm not afraid of death. I think this might be the one thing that depression has given me: I have thought of death (obsessively, almost) so much that the idea just doesn't scare me anymore. (I think this is a home-grown variation of what they call "systematic desensitization," yes?)

> It is impossible
> for me to imagine a state of being nothing at all, and this inspires
> more awe and fear and wonder in me than any concept of an afterlife ever
> could.

Why do you need to be able to imagine it?

 

Re: Depression, Evolution...Sorry about above

Posted by CarolAnn(The nut formerly known as Carol) on November 12, 1999, at 14:01:14

In reply to Re: Depression, Evolution..., posted by Carol on November 12, 1999, at 12:49:05

I hit the wrong button,duh.
Anyway, I just wrote a big response to Adam, but my computer ate it. I can't face a rewrite just now, but briefly -
>Real faith involves seperating "God" from "religion".
>I've had many crisis' of faith and come to my own belief system:
-We were created by a Higher Being(called God, for want of a better name).
But, I do not take the bible literally, so maybe it's the evolution thing or something undiscovered(many scientists also believe in a "Creator" because of the incredible odds that life could be a cosmic accident).
-The ultimate "commandment" is Be *good* to others as you would want them to be *good* to you.

-Religious persecution is the ultimate sin(Evil done in the name of GOD)

-There's no proof that prayers are answered, but also no proof that they aren't(depends on the answer).

-People who are truly *good*(and those who try hard to be *good*) will have a nice after-life no matter what they "believe".

There's more, but I've bored you enough!
On a personal note-I'm going to sign "CarolAnn" from now on, because I saw a post(I didn't write) signed "Carol". Ta Ta!


 

Re: Depression, Evolution...Religion, etc

Posted by Noa on November 12, 1999, at 16:55:38

In reply to Re: Depression, Evolution...Sorry about above, posted by CarolAnn(The nut formerly known as Carol) on November 12, 1999, at 14:01:14

I am staying out of the religion discussion, tho I find it interesting to read different people's perspectives. I wanted to throw in a random association I had when reading Elizabeth's (I think it was Elizabeth's, forgive me if I am mistaken) post, the part about finding eternal bliss boring. I was reminded of something I heard once , attributed to an anthropologist, that humans are "problem solving animals" and we need problems to solve to keep us happy. When we don't have any problems to solve, we create them. How bored we would be if we could not exercise this part of ourselves.

 

Re: Depression, Evolution...

Posted by Bob on November 12, 1999, at 20:22:09

In reply to Re: Depression, Evolution..., posted by Elizabeth on November 12, 1999, at 13:39:41

> (I certainly laughed at both Bob's and Phil's posts. Thanks, guys.)

( ;^)

> From a "serious" POV, this is an interesting topic, too.

I agree -- Adam does raise some interesting points (now that I'm ready to be a bit more serious now that the celebrations at 11:11 on 11/11 are over)

First, an atheist by definition does not believe in a supreme being. None of the self-respecting atheists that I know would believe in such a being even if that being was indifferent to us. On the other hand, a number of them tend towards some more Gaiaist or group consciousness sorts of spirituality ... so I'd agree that atheism does not rule out spirituality, but rather the notion of some sort of paternalistic to autocratic locus of such power.

> I have some number of years to be alive and conscious, and for me that is enough. To tell the truth, eternal bliss sounds like it could be a bit dull. (How does the saying go - "heaven for the climate, hell for the company?")

I'm no bible scholar or traditional hermeneut, but I do recall reading something a dozen years ago or so that traced the development of the concept of heaven and hell in late judaic/early christian thought. Then there's all them sociological studies about the demonization of pagan gods by conquering monotheists. Some true bible scholar out there may be able to correct me, but as I understand it from some early-morning midwest cable baptist evangelist, the concept of heaven and hell as it is commonly perceived really isn't in the bible anyway ... it's more like we're just dead until the Second Coming, and THEN we find out who stays in bliss and who gets confined to absolute obliteration.

As for eternal bliss, a nice contrast is Coleridge's opium-inspired Kublai Khan against Rush's Xanadu.

But if humans are, by the essence of their nature, problem solvers, eternal bliss would be the perfect problem. The ultimate conundrum. Either that, or whatever it is that makes bliss eternal would have to strip us of our humanity.

CC: as is often said around here, your mileage may vary ... but if your faith has quelled your personal demons and its a faith based on the better teachings of christianity, such as banishing the sin of pride from your life, then I hope we all can get a dose of that cure, whatever name we give it.

All the same, what's so bad about a god that makes mistakes? Seems to me that if god gave us free will but tossed adam and eve for disobeying HIS will, then he either goofed or he intended that to happen from the start. He created temptation, he was the cause of the original sin. If "free will" means being able to face temptation and abstain, then god himself doesn't have any free will -- he was tempted with the thought of testing his creation and he failed by doing so. Free will is a sham from the start, if you're betting on some omnipotent, omniscient god.

I'm biased, since I've spent so much time being trained as a teacher and a scientist. I don't pray to god; I listen for god's voice from inside. I've said elsewhere that the god I have blind faith in is essentially one of love and creativity, and you can add learning to that as well. Those, I believe, are humanity's greatest virtues, and as such reflect what exists of god in us. So what's so bad about a god who makes mistakes? To err may be just as divine as to learn from those errors and/or to forgive those who have erred.

Which, to wind up this windy response, leads me back to CarolAnn. My idea of hell? Perfect understanding of all the good and ill you have caused in your life, extending to all the lives your acts have touched. God doesn't damn us--we damn ourselves. I just don't believe that my god could allow us to feel what hell may exist in that knowledge ... maybe long enough to learn our last lessons, but not so long to tax god's love and forgiveness for everyone.


My two cents,
Bob

 

Re: Depression, Evolution...E.

Posted by Adam on November 13, 1999, at 0:05:22

In reply to Re: Depression, Evolution..., posted by Elizabeth on November 12, 1999, at 13:39:41


>
> I think the flaw (well, a flaw) in Pascal's wager is that it assumes that faith is something you can just switch on or off. I honestly don't think I could believe in the supernatural even if I wanted to.
>
This is, in essence, the primary critique against P.'s wager, but I do not think that he would have put it that way. Rather,
faith is something that can be aquired through religious practice, even if does not at first posess faith. This is not so
farfetched, but there are no guarantees, to be sure.

My critique has probably been thought of before, but I've often wondered why it never occurred to Pascal, who obviously wanted
to use a "mathematical" concept (go for infinity over finite value n as the safest bet) without figuring out that n over infinity
is the way God must have to weigh these things on His scales of justice, rendering any such reward or punishment arbitrary. This
should have been very disturbing. The Judeo/Christian concept of justice gives God the latitude, it would seem, to be a total
hardass, but to evoke an arbitrary God is anathema.
>
> Also - I had a discussion with my roommate about this recently - I'm not afraid of death. I think this might be the one thing that depression has given me: I have thought of death (obsessively, almost) so much that the idea just doesn't scare me anymore. (I think this is a home-grown variation of what they call "systematic desensitization," yes?)

Interesting. I have thought myself that I didn't fear death until it came to the sticking point, so to speak. Then I felt about as
afraid as I ever have. Instinct strikes again, I guess. In some ways, I think I actually envy your sangfroid, but if I posessed it,
I would not be here.


> > It is impossible
> > for me to imagine a state of being nothing at all, and this inspires
> > more awe and fear and wonder in me than any concept of an afterlife ever
> > could.
>
> Why do you need to be able to imagine it?

I don't, but I found deep contemplation of the concept at the point where I
was preparing to take the next step strangely life-affirming instead of nihilistic.
I can't explain why, and can think of no good reason, but there it is.

 

Re: Depression, Evolution...

Posted by CC on November 13, 1999, at 0:50:55

In reply to Re: Depression, Evolution..., posted by Bob on November 12, 1999, at 20:22:09

> > (I certainly laughed at both Bob's and Phil's posts. Thanks, guys.)
>
> ( ;^)
>
> > From a "serious" POV, this is an interesting topic, too.
>
> I agree -- Adam does raise some interesting points (now that I'm ready to be a bit more serious now that the celebrations at 11:11 on 11/11 are over)
>
> First, an atheist by definition does not believe in a supreme being. None of the self-respecting atheists that I know would believe in such a being even if that being was indifferent to us. On the other hand, a number of them tend towards some more Gaiaist or group consciousness sorts of spirituality ... so I'd agree that atheism does not rule out spirituality, but rather the notion of some sort of paternalistic to autocratic locus of such power.
>
> > I have some number of years to be alive and conscious, and for me that is enough. To tell the truth, eternal bliss sounds like it could be a bit dull. (How does the saying go - "heaven for the climate, hell for the company?")
>
> I'm no bible scholar or traditional hermeneut, but I do recall reading something a dozen years ago or so that traced the development of the concept of heaven and hell in late judaic/early christian thought. Then there's all them sociological studies about the demonization of pagan gods by conquering monotheists. Some true bible scholar out there may be able to correct me, but as I understand it from some early-morning midwest cable baptist evangelist, the concept of heaven and hell as it is commonly perceived really isn't in the bible anyway ... it's more like we're just dead until the Second Coming, and THEN we find out who stays in bliss and who gets confined to absolute obliteration.
>
> As for eternal bliss, a nice contrast is Coleridge's opium-inspired Kublai Khan against Rush's Xanadu.
>
> But if humans are, by the essence of their nature, problem solvers, eternal bliss would be the perfect problem. The ultimate conundrum. Either that, or whatever it is that makes bliss eternal would have to strip us of our humanity.
>
> CC: as is often said around here, your mileage may vary ... but if your faith has quelled your personal demons and its a faith based on the better teachings of christianity, such as banishing the sin of pride from your life, then I hope we all can get a dose of that cure, whatever name we give it.
>
> All the same, what's so bad about a god that makes mistakes? Seems to me that if god gave us free will but tossed adam and eve for disobeying HIS will, then he either goofed or he intended that to happen from the start. He created temptation, he was the cause of the original sin. If "free will" means being able to face temptation and abstain, then god himself doesn't have any free will -- he was tempted with the thought of testing his creation and he failed by doing so. Free will is a sham from the start, if you're betting on some omnipotent, omniscient god.
>
> I'm biased, since I've spent so much time being trained as a teacher and a scientist. I don't pray to god; I listen for god's voice from inside. I've said elsewhere that the god I have blind faith in is essentially one of love and creativity, and you can add learning to that as well. Those, I believe, are humanity's greatest virtues, and as such reflect what exists of god in us. So what's so bad about a god who makes mistakes? To err may be just as divine as to learn from those errors and/or to forgive those who have erred.
>
> Which, to wind up this windy response, leads me back to CarolAnn. My idea of hell? Perfect understanding of all the good and ill you have caused in your life, extending to all the lives your acts have touched. God doesn't damn us--we damn ourselves. I just don't believe that my god could allow us to feel what hell may exist in that knowledge ... maybe long enough to learn our last lessons, but not so long to tax god's love and forgiveness for everyone.
>
>
> My two cents,
> Bob

Well if God created beings that had no free will, they wouldn't be much more than robots, and would have no capacity to love, unless they were made that way, which would be pretty much pointless. Only with free will would the created being be able to choose to love God or otherwise. The common viewpoint of God, based on Christianity, is that "he" is perfect. Given that, I can see how some things like Genesis and the fall of man could raise some questions. But if it is necessary for there to be free will for genuine love to come from your creation, that seems to answer at least part of the question. An easier answer to the question would be, "Because it was necessary.". Of course, all along we are assuming that logic and human reason are infallible, which is probably not the case.
I think that Heaven and Hell are mentioned more than once in the New Testament, and there was "Sheol" in the Old Testament, which is similiar to the concept of the Greek underworld. Although opinions may differ from denomination to denomination, I think that you don't get to Heaven based on your own merits, "Salvation" is a gift that you can either except or reject. The idea that death and nonexistance have any appeal seems idiotic to me now, but I suppose at one time or another it might have seemed to be a viable escape from my problems, those associated with my depressed state. Another thing worth mentioning is that I think to some extent Cults or otherwise oddball religious groups sometimes prey on people who are vulnerable because of their depression or other mental illness.
I suppose alot of people have problems with mainstream Christianity, saying we are all a bunch of hypocrites. Well I have come to the conclusion that we are for the most part all hypocrites and by nature imperfect, and wonder why anyone would expect use to be perfect. As far as eternal bliss getting to be monotonous, there could be worse things, like being stuck in an eternal traffic jam. I'll take my chances with eternal bliss. As far as "man" being by nature a problem solver, isn't this a biological or evolutionary viewpoint? Isn't the stress of work and toil at least part of what causes us to die younger than we would without all these wonderful problems to solve? Do you have faith in man's ability to figure his way out of the myriads of problems that now face us without the help
of a compassionate God? If you do I have some fine real estate in the everglades that would be just right for you.

 

Re: Depression, Evolution...B.

Posted by Adam on November 13, 1999, at 1:40:59

In reply to Re: Depression, Evolution..., posted by Bob on November 12, 1999, at 20:22:09

> > (I certainly laughed at both Bob's and Phil's posts. Thanks, guys.)
>
> ( ;^)
>
> > From a "serious" POV, this is an interesting topic, too.
>
I do need to lighten up, I guess. I think part of my problem was an honest misreading of your post. I seem to have
misinterpreted the last line to somehow mean that I was a pedantic spewer of trivia (and that may be still...) whose
musings belonged in the trash. After re-reading I realised that line was about God. So I've got it figured out. I
really am delusional after all, and need desperately to get this god complex treated. In the mean time, I'll stop
projecting my doubts into the responses of others, if I can.

>
> I'm no bible scholar or traditional hermeneut, but I do recall reading something a dozen years ago or so that traced the development of the concept of heaven and hell in late judaic/early christian thought. Then there's all them sociological studies about the demonization of pagan gods by conquering monotheists. Some true bible scholar out there may be able to correct me, but as I understand it from some early-morning midwest cable baptist evangelist, the concept of heaven and hell as it is commonly perceived really isn't in the bible anyway ... it's more like we're just dead until the Second Coming, and THEN we find out who stays in bliss and who gets confined to absolute obliteration.
>
Actually, the concept of Heaven and Hell goes way back in Judaism. The oldest form of "hell" may be Sheol, which is more of
a Hades-like place of drear and darkness where our shades would eventually reside until Judgement Day.

Some mentions:

Psalm 139, 7-8:

"Whither shall I go from thy Spirit,
Or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
If I ascend to heaven, thou art there
If I make my bed in Sheol, thou art there!"

Amos, 9, 2

"Though they dig into Sheol,
from there my hand shall take them:
though they climb up to heaven,
from there I will bring them down."

Job 10, 20-22

"Are not the days of my life few?
Let me alone, that I may find a
little comfort
before I go whence I shall not return,
to the land of gloom and deep
darkness
the land of gloom and chaos
where light is as darkness."

Isaiah 14, 14-15

"I will ascend above the heights of
the clouds,
I will make myself like the Most
High
But you are brought down to Sheol,
to the depths of the Pit."


Later on came more of a Hell proper, with fires and torment and the like. For a nice transition to the day of Christ, there is a fun
description of hell in the Old Testament Apocrypha:

2 Esdras 7

"Then the pit of torment shall appear, and oppisite it shall be the place of rest; and the furnace of hell shall be disclosed, and opposite it
the paradise of delight. Then the Most High will say to the nations that have been raised from the dead, 'Look now, and understand whom you have
denied, who you have not served, whose commandments you have despised! Look on this side and on that; here are delight and rest, and there are
fire and torments!"

By the Christian era you have the Gehenna of Rabinical teaching, named for a valley where the Canaanites performed human sacrifices, and later
a place used to burn garbage. Jesus purportedly used this word, translated to "hell" in his sermons in, for instance, the book of Matthew ("...
whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says 'You fool!' shall liable to the hell of fire", 5:22; "And if your
eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and throw it away; it is better for you to enter life with one eye that with two eyes to be thrown into
the hell of fire.", 18:9)

It is true that these firey torments await the dead on Judgement Day, but the idea predates Christianity by quite a lot, is included from its
inception, and is firmly rooted in Judeo/Christian tradition. That Judaism and Christianity afterward was influence by gentile/pagan religions
is a given. But heaven and hell do make it in the Bible in one form or another quite often, and is usually depticted as a firey pit or a lake
of fire or some other really hot place. It's odd that heaven/paradise, other than being a very nice place to be way high up, isn't really fleshed
out at all. Is it, you know, temperate and breezy? More like a nice sauna? Biting into a York Peppermint Patty? I guess hell was more fun to
talk about.


 

Re: Depression, Evolution...B.

Posted by Adam on November 13, 1999, at 1:44:35

In reply to Re: Depression, Evolution...B., posted by Adam on November 13, 1999, at 1:40:59

Wow. It took me so long to type that up that CC snuck in. Thanks, though, CC!

;)

 

Re: Depression, Evolution...

Posted by Noa on November 13, 1999, at 4:24:49

In reply to Re: Depression, Evolution...B., posted by Adam on November 13, 1999, at 1:44:35

That humans are problem solving animals does not mean to say they are ABLE to solve all problems, just that it is an instinct to try, that we like to engage in problem solving. I don't think there is anything anithetical to a religious poiont of view in this idea.

My impression is that the early Judaic view of the afterlife, heaven style, is that the dead would be brought back to life.

 

God ect... more heaven and hell

Posted by CarolAnn(Sorry!keep hitting enter instead of shift on November 13, 1999, at 8:46:33

In reply to Re: Depression, Evolution...It, posted by CarolAnn on November 13, 1999, at 8:23:06

I don't know how much of the bible we can take literally. Seems to me that whether it is the Word of God or not, it was all set down by humans. Who are capable of mistakes, misinterpretations, and making changes simply to suit there own ego's.
I think the answer is to read and absorb the bible, or whatever holy book belongs to your faith, and use the knowledge to work out the belief system that feels right to you.
As far as heaven and hell, we'll never know until we pass over. But, I have to agree with Bob that hell is probably some form of realizing your earthly actions in a way that makes your soul accountable. Also, I think it is entirely possible that there is such a thing as reincarnation. My fear has always been that if I killed myself, the "powers that be" will just send right back down here to live the same type of life to learn what I was supposed to in the first place(my idea of hell is to have to live this same life over again!)
No real opinions of heaven, but read the book "What Dreams May Come" by Richard Matheson and it made sense to me(not the movie,though). I do think that the after life is not about a boring "eternal bliss", whatever it is, Paradise would have to be each individual's idea of anything that they would be happy with for eternity(could be problems to solve, challenges to meet, Knowledge to gain, ect.).
BTW if you haven't read the book above, it has a very intrigueing take on life after death.
On another note, As far as atheism is concerned, I really think it important that individuals not base their atheistic beliefs on the opinions of other atheists. If atheism is your thing, at least come to that conclusion through your own ideas and experiences. There can be just as much *dogma* in the atheist viewpoint as there is in any other "religion"(belief system).
Bye from CarolAnn

 

Re: Depression, Evolution...

Posted by Adam on November 13, 1999, at 12:59:49

In reply to Re: Depression, Evolution..., posted by Noa on November 13, 1999, at 4:24:49

> That humans are problem solving animals does not mean to say they are ABLE to solve all problems, just that it is an instinct to try, that we like to engage in problem solving. I don't think there is anything anithetical to a religious poiont of view in this idea.
>
> My impression is that the early Judaic view of the afterlife, heaven style, is that the dead would be brought back to life.

I think most early Judaic and Christian eschatology saw history culminating in a final battle where the dead would rise, Armageddon
would ensue, the evil would be cast out, and the good would would be readmitted into paradise, with a new Zion at its center, and
indeed, the center of the universe. Sometimes God Himself is there, seated in a new Temple. So, yes, I was exaggerating a bit, but
you see all the way through a concept of a heaven even before the eschaton. Paul clearly beleived that the End was imminent, but a
concept of a "realised eschatology" (which took shape in the Gospel of John in the form of the Paraclete), where an apolalyptic vision
was not essential, won out, as it became clear the "Parousia" was to be far in the future. This left Christians with the old ideas of
heaven and hell (or maybe purgatory) to tie them over, and the Bible provides no information about them. It seems many modern Jews
have dispensed with it all, aren't expecting a new and better David, and are happy to say the reward for being good is at best a good
life, but it is one's duty nonetheless to follow God's commandments.

 

Re: Depression, Evolution...(??for Adam)

Posted by CarolAnn on November 13, 1999, at 15:31:20

In reply to Re: Depression, Evolution..., posted by Adam on November 13, 1999, at 12:59:49

Adam, How do you know so much about the bible, especially all those biblical terms. I thought I had read it pretty thouroughly, but I never heard of the following:
eschatology - Paraclete - Parousia
If you wouldn't mind, I'd love an exact definition of each of these. Thanx, CarolAnn

 

Re: Depression, Evolution (CC)

Posted by Elizabeth on November 13, 1999, at 15:56:08

In reply to Re: Depression, Evolution..., posted by CC on November 13, 1999, at 0:50:55

> Another thing worth mentioning is that I think to some extent Cults or otherwise oddball religious groups sometimes prey on people who are vulnerable because of their depression or other mental illness.

CC,

This really hit home for me. I went to MIT as an undergrad. I am not sure if there are any statistics on this, but I have a feeling that MIT probably has one of the highest suicide rates of undergrads at American universities. Anyway, since I was a frosh (1992), there have been quite a few suicides, and a number of times, it turned out that the deceased had been involved with Scientology (which recruits rather vigorously around here).

> As far as eternal bliss getting to be monotonous, there could be worse things, like being stuck in an eternal traffic jam.

You're right, that's worse. (Maybe that's what hell is like? )

> Isn't the stress of work and toil at least part of what causes us to die younger than we would without all these wonderful problems to solve?

Some people seem to be at higher risk for "breaking" (developing cardiovascular problems and so forth, not to mention good ol' depression) under stress. It's a bit of a paradox: if there weren't problems to be solved, we would have no particular reason to exist, yet the problems often cause us to die earlier.

> Do you have faith in man's ability to figure his way out of the myriads of problems that now face us without the help
> of a compassionate God?

I have trouble accepting any claim that is based on mysticism, which is exactly what you mean by "faith." Hypotheses should be testable.

 

Re: Depression, Evolution (to Elizabeth)

Posted by CarolAnn on November 13, 1999, at 16:10:11

In reply to Re: Depression, Evolution (CC), posted by Elizabeth on November 13, 1999, at 15:56:08

> I have trouble accepting any claim that is based on mysticism, which is exactly what you mean by "faith." Hypotheses should be testable.<<


Well, yes Elizabeth, but there are many scientific hypotheses and theorys that are considered to be absolute truths, even with no real way to test them. For example: The Theory of Relativity. And most of what is hypothesized about Quantam Mechanics, is not physically testable. And of course, the Big Bang theory is considered to be absolute truth by most scientists, and yet how could we ever test that?
Just some thoughts...CarolAnn

 

Question for all of you....

Posted by CarolAnn on November 13, 1999, at 16:14:36

In reply to Re: Depression, Evolution..., posted by Adam on November 13, 1999, at 12:59:49

This is getting to be such a long thread. Anyone sufficiently interested in the topic to go down and start again with a new thread?
I really hope so, I love this discussion.CarolAnn

 

Re: God etc. (CarolAnn)

Posted by Elizabeth on November 13, 1999, at 16:15:45

In reply to God ect... more heaven and hell, posted by CarolAnn(Sorry!keep hitting enter instead of shift on November 13, 1999, at 8:46:33

> On another note, As far as atheism is concerned, I really think it important that individuals not base their atheistic beliefs on the opinions of other atheists. If atheism is your thing, at least come to that conclusion through your own ideas and experiences. There can be just as much *dogma* in the atheist viewpoint as there is in any other "religion" (belief system).

Atheism isn't a religion or an organized belief system (i.e., there are no atheist popes or priests); it simply means the *absence* of a belief in a god (or gods). For some people this extends to belief in the supernatural in general; others believe in some form of "spirituality" but no specific entity behind that spirituality.

For me, as I alluded in my previous post, it means the rejection of mysticism, of unprovable (and undisprovable) claims, of taking things on "faith" or "intuition" with no evidence or reason (which is, it seems to me, what religion requires of one).

 

I'm so sorry Elizabeth, I mis-spoke

Posted by CarolAnn on November 13, 1999, at 16:28:36

In reply to Re: Depression, Evolution..., posted by Adam on November 13, 1999, at 12:59:49

I didn't mean to equate Atheism with religion. When I say "belief system" I mean each individuals "belief"(Atheism is the "belief" that there is no God). So, if a person is an atheist based on only what they have been told by other athiests, it is the same thing as a person who is a christian based only on what they have been told by other christians. My point being, no matter what people are going to believe OR *disbelieve* they need to learn as much as they can about all aspects of each *choice* to make informed decisions.Hope this doesn't offend.CarolAnn.

 

Re: Depression, Evolution (CC)

Posted by CC on November 13, 1999, at 16:59:42

In reply to Re: Depression, Evolution (CC), posted by Elizabeth on November 13, 1999, at 15:56:08

> > Another thing worth mentioning is that I think to some extent Cults or otherwise oddball religious groups sometimes prey on people who are vulnerable because of their depression or other mental illness.
>
> CC,
>
> This really hit home for me. I went to MIT as an undergrad. I am not sure if there are any statistics on this, but I have a feeling that MIT probably has one of the highest suicide rates of undergrads at American universities. Anyway, since I was a frosh (1992), there have been quite a few suicides, and a number of times, it turned out that the deceased had been involved with Scientology (which recruits rather vigorously around here).
>
> > As far as eternal bliss getting to be monotonous, there could be worse things, like being stuck in an eternal traffic jam.
>
> You're right, that's worse. (Maybe that's what hell is like? )
>
> > Isn't the stress of work and toil at least part of what causes us to die younger than we would without all these wonderful problems to solve?
>
> Some people seem to be at higher risk for "breaking" (developing cardiovascular problems and so forth, not to mention good ol' depression) under stress. It's a bit of a paradox: if there weren't problems to be solved, we would have no particular reason to exist, yet the problems often cause us to die earlier.
>
> > Do you have faith in man's ability to figure his way out of the myriads of problems that now face us without the help
> > of a compassionate God?
>
> I have trouble accepting any claim that is based on mysticism, which is exactly what you mean by "faith." Hypotheses should be testable.

If you could prove God exists, there would be no need for "faith". I think Christians generally beleive that without faith, nothing can be accomplished. I can't recall the particular Scripture. Faith and belief are based on personal experience. Its not something that can be scientifically measured or proven. If it could it would be counter-productive. You can't put God in a test tube. The good thing about Mainstream Christianity is that you have something besides your own personal experiences to guide you, the Scripture and the hierarchical higher ups. Left to your own devices, you can come up with some pretty wierd ideas. What about my question, do you think "man" is capable of solving the problems currently facing us?

 

Re: Depression, Evolution

Posted by Bob on November 13, 1999, at 21:54:17

In reply to Re: Depression, Evolution (CC), posted by Elizabeth on November 13, 1999, at 15:56:08

First of all, the most profound thing I've got to say about everything between this and my last post is "wow!". Might as well keep it simple -- no extended description would do it justice.

Thanks CC and A on the H&H info.

E, I wouldn't limit atheists by decribing them all as empiricists (testable hypotheses as the path to all that is knowable). Then again, I've known a number of atheists who give empiricism a bad name, and it certainly doesn't need any help on that.

It's not that faith is incompatible with empiricism, but that they are incommensurate systems. Their "primitive" assumptions are rooted in non-intersecting aspects of our experience.

I'd go farther than others here, I think, in just how divorced from "proof" true faith is. If what I hold true by faith has any correlation to what is taught by any book or any minister, I cannot accept that external source as corroboration for what I believe. If anything, pardon me for the hubris, I'd say the reverse is true -- that the traditional teachings still have validity because the faith of contemporary individuals who look inside provide the evidence. Not so much that we invent god, but rather that god is continually renewed and reinvented through us.

Along the same lines, I'd say those who need to demonstrate proofs of the literal interpretations of religious texts have no faith whatsoever. Knowing the exact date of creation does nothing to explain why it works as it does, just as achieving a grand unification theory of everything [sic] cannot explain why it is in the first place.

But CC had a question:
do you think "man" is capable of solving the problems currently facing us?

If god poses questions for us to which god already knows the answer, then what's the point? If god "cheats" and helps us answer those questions, then why bother with us? My wager is that god has no idea whether we can solve the problems we face, and that's why god put us here in the first place. I think god took his best shot, cut us loose, and if we can ascertain just in what aspect of god's image we have been created and if we can stick with it, we have a pretty good shot.

I mean, if you were god (and I'm not talking just to Adam here =^P ), would you jump ahead to the end of the book, or would you let the mystery unfold?

Who says the end is even written, anyway?
(Yeah, I know, Saint Augustine for one...)

Bob

 

Problem solving and dying young

Posted by Noa on November 13, 1999, at 23:05:29

In reply to Re: Depression, Evolution , posted by Bob on November 13, 1999, at 21:54:17

This calls to mind the book, Why Zebras Don't Get Ulcers, which is a great book about stress in animals and humans. Perhaps problems cause us to die young because they are chronic, social problems, and our responses to stress are still better suited for the running-for-your-life-acute-stress-reaction type stress, like the zebra about to be eaten by the lion, or the lion whose cubs will die if she doesn't capture that zebra. Chronic exposure to stress hormones do make our bodies sick. Even shrinks our seahorses (hippocampi).

 

Re: Depression, Evolution

Posted by CC on November 14, 1999, at 2:27:30

In reply to Re: Depression, Evolution , posted by Bob on November 13, 1999, at 21:54:17

> First of all, the most profound thing I've got to say about everything between this and my last post is "wow!". Might as well keep it simple -- no extended description would do it justice.
>
> Thanks CC and A on the H&H info.
>
> E, I wouldn't limit atheists by decribing them all as empiricists (testable hypotheses as the path to all that is knowable). Then again, I've known a number of atheists who give empiricism a bad name, and it certainly doesn't need any help on that.
>
> It's not that faith is incompatible with empiricism, but that they are incommensurate systems. Their "primitive" assumptions are rooted in non-intersecting aspects of our experience.
>
> I'd go farther than others here, I think, in just how divorced from "proof" true faith is. If what I hold true by faith has any correlation to what is taught by any book or any minister, I cannot accept that external source as corroboration for what I believe. If anything, pardon me for the hubris, I'd say the reverse is true -- that the traditional teachings still have validity because the faith of contemporary individuals who look inside provide the evidence. Not so much that we invent god, but rather that god is continually renewed and reinvented through us.
>
> Along the same lines, I'd say those who need to demonstrate proofs of the literal interpretations of religious texts have no faith whatsoever. Knowing the exact date of creation does nothing to explain why it works as it does, just as achieving a grand unification theory of everything [sic] cannot explain why it is in the first place.
>
> But CC had a question:
> do you think "man" is capable of solving the problems currently facing us?
>
> If god poses questions for us to which god already knows the answer, then what's the point? If god "cheats" and helps us answer those questions, then why bother with us? My wager is that god has no idea whether we can solve the problems we face, and that's why god put us here in the first place. I think god took his best shot, cut us loose, and if we can ascertain just in what aspect of god's image we have been created and if we can stick with it, we have a pretty good shot.
>
> I mean, if you were god (and I'm not talking just to Adam here =^P ), would you jump ahead to the end of the book, or would you let the mystery unfold?
>
> Who says the end is even written, anyway?
> (Yeah, I know, Saint Augustine for one...)
>
> Bob

Well,

I'd go farther than others here, I think, in just how divorced from "proof" true faith is. If
what I hold true by faith has any correlation to what is taught by any book or any
minister, I cannot accept that external source as corroboration for what I believe.

by analogy, suppose I had a patient with OCD who seemed to respond well to luvox. I then consulted the literature to see if other people reported similiar findings. And later, I attended a Psychiatrist convention and discussed my observations with other psychiatrists and they reported similiar results. Would my belief in luvox's effectiveness be reinforced?

If
anything, pardon me for the hubris, I'd say the reverse is true -- that the traditional
teachings still have validity because the faith of contemporary individuals who look
inside provide the evidence. Not so much that we invent god, but rather that god is
continually renewed and reinvented through us.

Here your working assumption seems to be that the Scriptures have no merit of their own, and that people just read into them what they want to see. And then there is prophesy, which although it isn't iron clad science, is pretty compelling evidence of God or precognition, for those familiar with the Scriptures anyway.

Along the same lines, I'd say those who need to demonstrate proofs of the literal
interpretations of religious texts have no faith whatsoever. Knowing the exact date of
creation does nothing to explain why it works as it does, just as achieving a grand
unification theory of everything [sic] cannot explain why it is in the first place.

The intent of people trying to prove the literal interpretation of Scripture would be hard to know for someone outside that Faith and most of them probably aren't to concerned why apples fall from trees etc.. And the origin of the universe is still a pretty strong argument for the existance of God.

But CC had a question:
do you think "man" is capable of solving the problems currently facing us?

If god poses questions for us to which god already knows the answer, then what's the
point? If god "cheats" and helps us answer those questions, then why bother with us?
My wager is that god has no idea whether we can solve the problems we face, and
that's why god put us here in the first place. I think god took his best shot, cut us
loose, and if we can ascertain just in what aspect of god's image we have been created
and if we can stick with it, we have a pretty good shot.

First, you seem to be assuming that "God" created the problems we are stuck with, and given the enormity of the problems, do you think man can figure his way out of them, without God's help? If you do I don't share your optimism, and would it be too much to ask if I could store some spent plutonium in you garage? Whether or not God is bored because he knows everything, we don't know whats going to happen next, or could we look it up in the literature??

I mean, if you were god (and I'm not talking just to Adam here =^P ), would you jump
ahead to the end of the book, or would you let the mystery unfold?

If you are curious how things end, you could look at the last few chapters of Revelations.


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