Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 11295

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acupuncture, chinese meds. & depression ???

Posted by dj on September 9, 1999, at 10:02:12

Anyone out there done any work with any of the above in relation to depression and had any successes and if so with what???? I'm expermenting with both right now but my Psych. cautioned me about the Chinese meds. which are unregulated -- anyone out there with any experience please discuss..

Following are a couple of interesting excerpts on the issue:

http://www.depression.com/health_library/anti_depressant_therapies/anti_28_acupuncture.html

"Acupuncture

The United Nations World Health Organization endorses acupuncture as a treatment for depression. At the University of Arizona, John J. Allen, Ph.D., an assistant professor of psychology studied 34 women diagnosed with major depression who were not being treated with antidepressant medication. One-third met with the researchers but received no acupuncture. The second received acupuncture, but not on points recommended for treating depression. The third received acupuncture on the depression points. Compared with the two control groups, the women receiving acupuncture on the depression points showed significantly greater mood elevation.


Source: Steefel, L. "Treating Depression," Alternative and Complementary Therapies, 1-96, 1-4. "

http://www.healthy.net/library/books/acupuncture/acupun8.htm#The Emotions and Mental Disease

"The Emotions and Mental Disease
Traditional Chinese medicine considers that the emotions are governed by individual organs. They do not consider the brain, or subconscious, as discrete entities, therefore the body and the mind are a real part of the same functional system. Each organ is given a particular emotion; for instance, the liver is said to be the organ affected by anger. The concept that emotional functions are completely tied in with physical ones is deeply rooted in Chinese culture. In China there is less 'mental disease' as we know it in the West, because the neurotic is considered to have a disease of the liver or spleen, rather than anxiety or depression. Perhaps this explains the fallacious claim that 'no mental disease exists in China'. In my experience, having worked in a Chinese hospital, the Chinese are just as prone to neurosis as we are in the West.

There are great advantages in seeing mental functions in this way because, instead of being labeled a depressive, the patient feels that the liver is playing up and therefore perceives the disease in a different context. In the West a depressive may still be stigmatized and considered weak because he, or she, is unable to cope. In China this is not so because the cultural history and social context of mental disease is different, the depressed patient being made to feel that the disease is real and organic, rather than imagined. In spite of the constructive efforts of those who work in the field of mental health in Western nations, the body and the mind are generally still considered to be separate, and those who are unable to keep the mind under control are thought, by some, to have failed.

In acupuncture, the Chinese have a method of effectively treating a proportion of mental disease, which therefore has not been considered incurable, and there has been no necessity to shut all sufferers away in institutions. In the West most of those who are working within the area of mental disease are dealing with diseases that are poorly understood. As a general rule the level of understanding in any area of human knowledge can be judged by the number of theories that are used to explain a single phenomenon. If there is one theory that seems to explain all the facts, for a given observation, then it is probably correct. If many ideas are used to explain the same set of facts then it is likely that most of them are, at best half truths. At present the field of mental health embraces a large number of theories which are used to give opposing explanations for the same basic facts.

Without a defined idea of the origin of disease, treatment is difficult, therefore a wide variety of poorly understood treatment methods are used in mental disease, such as electroconvulsive therapy. Perhaps the lack of social stigma attached to mental disease in China is because there has been some form of consistent explanation, and treatment, for this type of problem for the last 2,000 years. The area of mental disease is particularly interesting as I am sure that there is as much mental disease in China, if not more, than in the United Kingdom, but it would seem that the cultural and medical heritage of the Chinese people has allowed them to deal with it in a different manner from that in the West, and possibly more effectively."

 

Re: acupuncture, chinese meds. & depression ???

Posted by Jim on October 19, 1999, at 22:02:21

In reply to acupuncture, chinese meds. & depression ???, posted by dj on September 9, 1999, at 10:02:12

I practice Acupuncture and Oriental Med. in NYC and have a real interest in depression and it's
treatment. There is currently an NIH-funded
study of both acup. and Chinese herb formulae being conducted at U. of Arizona.
I've seen definite benefit from both modalities
in both myself and patients.
BTW, I also like SAMe.


> Anyone out there done any work with any of the above in relation to depression and had any successes and if so with what???? I'm expermenting with both right now but my Psych. cautioned me about the Chinese meds. which are unregulated -- anyone out there with any experience please discuss..
>
> Following are a couple of interesting excerpts on the issue:
>
> http://www.depression.com/health_library/anti_depressant_therapies/anti_28_acupuncture.html
>
> "Acupuncture
>
> The United Nations World Health Organization endorses acupuncture as a treatment for depression. At the University of Arizona, John J. Allen, Ph.D., an assistant professor of psychology studied 34 women diagnosed with major depression who were not being treated with antidepressant medication. One-third met with the researchers but received no acupuncture. The second received acupuncture, but not on points recommended for treating depression. The third received acupuncture on the depression points. Compared with the two control groups, the women receiving acupuncture on the depression points showed significantly greater mood elevation.
>
>
> Source: Steefel, L. "Treating Depression," Alternative and Complementary Therapies, 1-96, 1-4. "
>
> http://www.healthy.net/library/books/acupuncture/acupun8.htm#The Emotions and Mental Disease
>
> "The Emotions and Mental Disease
> Traditional Chinese medicine considers that the emotions are governed by individual organs. They do not consider the brain, or subconscious, as discrete entities, therefore the body and the mind are a real part of the same functional system. Each organ is given a particular emotion; for instance, the liver is said to be the organ affected by anger. The concept that emotional functions are completely tied in with physical ones is deeply rooted in Chinese culture. In China there is less 'mental disease' as we know it in the West, because the neurotic is considered to have a disease of the liver or spleen, rather than anxiety or depression. Perhaps this explains the fallacious claim that 'no mental disease exists in China'. In my experience, having worked in a Chinese hospital, the Chinese are just as prone to neurosis as we are in the West.
>
> There are great advantages in seeing mental functions in this way because, instead of being labeled a depressive, the patient feels that the liver is playing up and therefore perceives the disease in a different context. In the West a depressive may still be stigmatized and considered weak because he, or she, is unable to cope. In China this is not so because the cultural history and social context of mental disease is different, the depressed patient being made to feel that the disease is real and organic, rather than imagined. In spite of the constructive efforts of those who work in the field of mental health in Western nations, the body and the mind are generally still considered to be separate, and those who are unable to keep the mind under control are thought, by some, to have failed.
>
> In acupuncture, the Chinese have a method of effectively treating a proportion of mental disease, which therefore has not been considered incurable, and there has been no necessity to shut all sufferers away in institutions. In the West most of those who are working within the area of mental disease are dealing with diseases that are poorly understood. As a general rule the level of understanding in any area of human knowledge can be judged by the number of theories that are used to explain a single phenomenon. If there is one theory that seems to explain all the facts, for a given observation, then it is probably correct. If many ideas are used to explain the same set of facts then it is likely that most of them are, at best half truths. At present the field of mental health embraces a large number of theories which are used to give opposing explanations for the same basic facts.
>
> Without a defined idea of the origin of disease, treatment is difficult, therefore a wide variety of poorly understood treatment methods are used in mental disease, such as electroconvulsive therapy. Perhaps the lack of social stigma attached to mental disease in China is because there has been some form of consistent explanation, and treatment, for this type of problem for the last 2,000 years. The area of mental disease is particularly interesting as I am sure that there is as much mental disease in China, if not more, than in the United Kingdom, but it would seem that the cultural and medical heritage of the Chinese people has allowed them to deal with it in a different manner from that in the West, and possibly more effectively."

 

Re: acupuncture, chinese meds. & depression ???

Posted by jamie on October 20, 1999, at 3:32:44

In reply to acupuncture, chinese meds. & depression ???, posted by dj on September 9, 1999, at 10:02:12


I don't see how sticking needles in someone is going to help anything in the brain. Or anything else. I have always been baffled and skeptical of pricking the skin to heal everything under the sun. Maybe it works like a placebo effect. I dunno. Not going to stick any needles in me.

 

Re: acupuncture, chinese meds. & depression ???

Posted by Dysthymic Duck on October 20, 1999, at 7:19:26

In reply to Re: acupuncture, chinese meds. & depression ???, posted by jamie on October 20, 1999, at 3:32:44

>
> I don't see how sticking needles in someone is going to help anything in the brain. Or anything else. I have always been baffled and skeptical of pricking the skin to heal everything under the sun. Maybe it works like a placebo effect. I dunno. Not going to stick any needles in me.

Hi,

Well, I think there is room for debate. I
think it seems outlandish to us Westerners
(me included) because it's based on an emipirical
model, not a scientific one, so we never learn
a single concept about it. It's a 'myth', so to
speak, that through what? 5000 years of trial and
error seems to work prety good. It's not miracle,
but it's not snake oil, either, I think.

Our bodies are laced with a network of
thousands (millions?) of nerves, some of
which never carry informaion back to the brain.
I.e. the vagal, if I recall correctly. One of
the papers -- the New York Time science section
in the last several weeks, I think, talked about
an implanted electronic device that gave the electrical
stimulation to the vagal nerve, to supress
serizures in the brain. Also, in their
controlled studies, I think, they had the
patients with the stimulators reporting feeling
happier than usual, and for not particular reason.
This could be due not have to takes meds, or med
side effects, but there were reasons (which I
can't recall) why they though it might be a future
treatment for depression. (I expect I'll be old
and gray before that happens, though.)

Also, it's been shown on brain scans that if you
stick a needle in area of the big toe related to
the eyem the visual cortex can be seen lighting
up on a CT scan (glucose utilization or Xenon
I don't remember) If you stick in a non-important
part of the toe, that part of the brain doesn't
lght up.

OK, NOW A BIG O.Y.O.H.: To my knowledge,
and despite all the testimonials I'm going to get
for saying this -- tradtional Easter Medicine
has not come up with cures for depression that are
significantly better than those of western
medicine. (I met an accupunturist once at
my western-oriented doctor's office; she said her
methods only helped her so much.) Some people ARE
cured by acupunture, and I believe them when tell
me. And some aren't Some find Prozac their
"miracle drug". Some others can't stand it, or
find it just doesn't work.

Here's the OTOH: If Eastern Medicine had a
cure-all for depression, I think it'd have gotten
out (or quickly patented by some corporation)
and we'd all know about it.

My doctor treats a lot of CFS, FMS, and
occasional (I think) people with depression,
bipolar, etc. His ability to treat CFS stuns me,
and he yet he said to me once,
"CFS is easy [to treat]. Depression is hard."

 

Re: acupuncture, chinese meds. & depression ???

Posted by LD on October 20, 1999, at 15:19:23

In reply to Re: acupuncture, chinese meds. & depression ???, posted by Dysthymic Duck on October 20, 1999, at 7:19:26

I was receiving acupuncture for chronic pain, and asked my doctor about doing if for depression also. I am currently on Celexa, but he said the acupuncture could increase its effects. So I received acupuncture on the correct "points" and all I can say, was I was in heaven for the next couple of days. Being depressed for a very long time, the only thing I have to compare what I felt, was it was like being on drugs. I DON'T do drugs anymore, but in the past as those of you have been there know, some people that are depressed tend to abuse... ANYWAY, I really feel like the acupucture did wonders and the Celexa is working great too. I felt I didnt have anything to lose by trying it, and I was very happy with the results.

 

Q for Dythymic Duck

Posted by andreweb on October 22, 1999, at 9:27:26

In reply to Re: acupuncture, chinese meds. & depression ???, posted by Dysthymic Duck on October 20, 1999, at 7:19:26


>
> My doctor treats a lot of CFS, FMS, and
> occasional (I think) people with depression,
> bipolar, etc. His ability to treat CFS stuns me,
> and he yet he said to me once,
> "CFS is easy [to treat]. Depression is hard."

I thought that CFS and Fibromyalgia are hard to treat? What kind of doctor is he? How does he treat those disorders?

 

Re: Q for Dythymic Duck

Posted by dj on October 22, 1999, at 10:19:12

In reply to Q for Dythymic Duck, posted by andreweb on October 22, 1999, at 9:27:26

I've read (though I forget where) that these so-called syndromes are more & more being viewed as subsets of depression, which if it is true (and it makes sense to me in these days of trendy syndrome names) would mean that the doc. can deal with some forms of depression, though perhaps not bi-polar...

> I thought that CFS and Fibromyalgia are hard to treat? What kind of doctor is he? How does he treat those disorders?

 

Re: Q for Dythymic Duck

Posted by Dysthymic Duck on October 28, 1999, at 15:03:30

In reply to Q for Dythymic Duck, posted by andreweb on October 22, 1999, at 9:27:26

> >
> > My doctor treats a lot of CFS, FMS, and
> > occasional (I think) people with depression,
> > bipolar, etc. His ability to treat CFS stuns me,
> > and he yet he said to me once,
> > "CFS is easy [to treat]. Depression is hard."
>
> I thought that CFS and Fibromyalgia are hard to treat? What kind of doctor is he? How does he treat those disorders?

You're right CFS&FMS are hard to treat -- I
should've said "*treatment resistant*
depression is hard to treat". He gets reffered
the local refractory cases, I think.

His treatment for CFS is contravertial. Basically
he runs through a list of meds, and depending on
how you react sort of follows of "flowchart"
until you get to a med that works. He says it's
sort of like finding the right neurotransmitter
"button" to push. A lot of people are helped by
gabapentin, nimodipine, hydralazine, mexetiline,
and some others I can't remember. It varies a
lot between people, though.

His method is an easily assaible one (and often
is), but... well what can I say, a vunerable
idea is not by necessity wrong. And all new
ideas start out unproven anyway (there's a great
essay by Einstien on that subject).

His belief, so he writes, is that if
he can help someone by using meds that are safe
and work, then he has a moral obligation to help
them. His detractors say he's usng unscientific
methods, because his treatments and methods aren't
aren't double-blind verified yet.

Me, I'm all for the scientific method, but now,
this moment, I need to eat, be able to read,
and be able to stand upright 10 minutes without
passing out. He has found things that help me with
all those things. Not 100%, but significantly.
Few of the 9 other docs I saw before him even
tried. Ok, I better stop before I go on a
rant. :-)

 

Re: Q for Dythymic Duck (addendum) -- andreweb

Posted by Dysthymic Duck on October 28, 1999, at 17:44:36

In reply to Re: Q for Dythymic Duck, posted by Dysthymic Duck on October 28, 1999, at 15:03:30

> > What kind of doctor is he?

He's a psychiatrist. He reads tons of neurobiology
journals, though, so "neuropharmacologist" or
somesuch might be more accurate in a way.

 

Re: Q for Dythymic Duck -- dj

Posted by Dysthymic Duck on October 28, 1999, at 17:47:02

In reply to Re: Q for Dythymic Duck, posted by dj on October 22, 1999, at 10:19:12

[Apologies if this gets posted multiple times --
browser is acting wierd]

> I've read (though I forget where) that these so-called syndromes are more & more being viewed as subsets of depression, which if it is true (and it makes sense to me in these days of trendy syndrome names) would mean that the doc. can deal with some forms of depression, though perhaps not bi-polar...

This is very contravertial stuff, but, IMO the
CFS == depression theory has more to do with
politics and turf wars among professionals than
much else.

My brain isn't what it used to be, so I'm not
going to argue what the current research debates
are, but I can tell you about my personal
experience. My psychological state, and CFS
state (cognitive+physical) move in opposite
directions. So, I don't think CFS is a subset
of depression.


I've had dysthymia, but my own estimation,
since about 12. At about 20, I started
having problems feeling tired (moreso).
So, I went to the family doc. He ran a couple of
tests which came out fine, and he told me to go
out and get some exercise. That p*ssed me off.
I know my body. So, I went to another doc, who
did a few more tests... and told me to get some
exercise. So I did it -- started exercising
-- almost out of spite.

But, lo and behold, I *did* feel better! For
the first time I felt secure, confident, and
just plain happy to be alive. I enjoyed things
and people more than I ever had before. I felt
great. The depression just vanished.

But, then I started having problems writing
essays for my JC classes. It kept getting harder and
harder to write coherently. Then I started having
trouble reading. I'd forget the first
half of a short story when I got to the end (so it
wouldn't make a lot of sense). Then I'd forget
the previous paragraph. Then sentence. And, finally
individual words [no bull]. And, I also started feeling
physically worse. I'd nearly pass out if I stood
up from of a chair too fast. I'd get faint,
short of breath and have chest pains if I was on
my feet too long. And there was intense insomnia
(no amount of vodka could not put me to sleep
(and I rarely drank)), and a lot of other bizzare
stuff.

But my spirits were good despite all that. I
figured school was just stressful, so it
was all normal. Because of that, and because
my mood would drop whenever I stopped, I kept
cycling (bicycling). The wierd thing was --
and this is my point -- the physical and cognitive
problem would IMPROVE when I stopped exercising.
But I never did that for very long (1 week max.).

Things got worse. I struggled to find a balance,
but the CFS stuff got worse despite any amount of
reduced exercise. It just slowed the slide
downward. So, I could either be happy and
physically & cognitively messed up, or
physically & cognitively so-so, and too depressed
to work.

So I went back to the doc, and explained this.
He told me to exercise. It was like he was deaf.
But I did keep exercising.

Finally, I couldn't compensate at all anymore.
And the depressions I'd get when I stopped
were much worse than before I'd started. Rock and
a hard place.

More doctors. Tried some anti-depressants, which
caused wierd, intense side-effects they had
never seen before. They did nothing else. (I was
basically out of money anyway). Tried a psychologist,
(which I couldn't afford, but it was a last ditch effort),
and got nowhere. (Didn't mesh with her at all,
though.)

Finally stopped exercising. Physical condition
improved 50%. Cognitive problems appear to have
become permenant (but meds help). Depression is
back.

Finally, got to my current doc. Cognitive probs
better by about 50%, physical probs almost back
to normal. The depression is turning out to be a
bear to treat, though. (Luckily for me it's
the anhedonic type; I know others suffer much
worse.)

Jeeze, that was longer than I'd intended. Anyway,
that's my story. My psychological state and CFS
state move in opposite directions. I don't
believe they're related.

 

Another Q for the Duck

Posted by andrewb on November 1, 1999, at 11:24:49

In reply to Re: Q for Dythymic Duck (addendum) -- andreweb, posted by Dysthymic Duck on October 28, 1999, at 17:44:36


What kind of medicines are you taking that are helping you with your cognitive problems? Concerning your anhedonia and dysthymia, an antidepressant called amisulpride may help. It has helped me. I think it may be especially effective with anhedonia. Side effects are uncommon. If you like more info. on the med. e-mail me at andrewb@seanet.com

 

Re: Another Q for the Duck

Posted by Dysthymic Duck on November 13, 1999, at 7:14:39

In reply to Another Q for the Duck, posted by andrewb on November 1, 1999, at 11:24:49

Hi Andrewb. Sorry for the long delay. Had a
Crash a Burn last week.

Anyway, the 'brain-booster' med my doc uses
is an off the wall use of "thyrotrophin
releasing hormone" (TRH). I don't know your medical
backgound (i.e. a med student), so sorry if this
is pedantic to ya.

TRH is normally used to test the thryroid gland,
by injecting it (IV I imagine). The hormone is
naturally produced by the pituitary and when it
hits the thryroid, the thryoid starts making
thyroid hormones.

What my doc uses is dilute TRH intranasally and
as eyedrops. It's a way off the wall use. But
it works for me.

The theory is that there are receptors for TRH in nasal cavity,
on the trigeminal(sp?) nerve. The hypothesis is, that
stimulating this nerve sends signals back to
certain parts of the brain, and though a chain of
events cause the release of a lot of things, i.e.
dopamine, GABA, serotionin, and god knows
what else. Oh, and the reason for the eyedrops
is that the trigeminal nerve (a facial nerve)
splits into 3 parts, and goes to different
parts of the face and jaw (i.e. one inervates your
teeth)

The only problem is, it's not quite enough. Trying
to supplement with Wellbutrin and Adderall, but
isn't working too well.

Thanks for the tip on amisulpide -- my doc lets me
try just about anything I ask for, so I'll talk to
him about it.


> What kind of medicines are you taking that are helping you with your cognitive problems? Concerning your anhedonia and dysthymia, an antidepressant called amisulpride may help. It has helped me. I think it may be especially effective with anhedonia. Side effects are uncommon. If you like more info. on the med. e-mail me at andrewb@seanet.com

 

Re: Yet another Q for the Duck

Posted by andrewb on November 13, 1999, at 12:43:49

In reply to Re: Another Q for the Duck, posted by Dysthymic Duck on November 13, 1999, at 7:14:39

One more question. What specific benefits do you experience by using TRH. Would these benefits be similar to those experienced by taking T3 & T4, either alone or in combination.
By the way, amisulpride in not marketed in the US so your doctor may not be familiar with it.


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