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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 16 of 16. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Diane on November 1, 1999, at 16:17:53
Does anyone have a BOOK recommendation ...on AD medicines? Or depression & it's treatments?
Anything that might help me better sort things out with regard to meds.
Tho after rooting around here on Babble I quess there is no concrete on the road to recovery.
It all seems so hit and miss. Very discouraging.Oh well! Any book recommendations out there??
Chop Chop :o)Diane
Posted by jamie on November 1, 1999, at 17:44:27
In reply to Books on ADs? , posted by Diane on November 1, 1999, at 16:17:53
I found some good books just browsing at a large local bookstore. They talked all about antidepressents. I didn't buy any though. I just spent a few hours thumbing through them in the store! I wish I could have afforded to bring them all home. There were a couple good ones I don't remember the names.If you have time to surf there is more available on the net than in books. Do searches for (examples) depression, antidepressants, SSRIs, tricyclic, antidepressant augmentation, etc. You will be amazed how much is out there. And its free.
Posted by Louisa on November 1, 1999, at 18:07:40
In reply to Books on ADs? , posted by Diane on November 1, 1999, at 16:17:53
I really liked "When Words are not Enough" by Valerie Raskin. It's a book about psychopharmacology and women specifically -- lots of information about things having to do with women, like pregnancy, PMS, etc. It's a really great book.
Good luck --
Louisa
Posted by Diane on November 1, 1999, at 19:36:25
In reply to Re: Books on ADs? , posted by jamie on November 1, 1999, at 17:44:27
Jamie:
> If you have time to surf there is more available on the net than in books.I am overwhelmed by the amount of info on the net. I can't keep it all straight in my head or even in saved files.
I'd like to find a good up-to-the-minute reference book.Louisa:
I found your book at amazon.com. Sounds good. I'm going to request an inter-library loan on it.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0553067133/qid=941504304/sr=1-3/002-3244954-8255409Thanks both of you
Posted by saint james on November 1, 1999, at 19:52:08
In reply to Books on ADs? , posted by Diane on November 1, 1999, at 16:17:53
> Does anyone have a BOOK recommendation ...on AD medicines? Or depression & it's treatments?
> Anything that might help me better sort things out with regard to meds.
>
> Tho after rooting around here on Babble I quess there is no concrete on the road to recovery.
> It all seems so hit and miss. Very discouraging.
>
> Oh well! Any book recommendations out there??
> Chop Chop :o)
>
> Diane
>James here...
I like "Listening to Prozac" , it has a good history of AD's up to Prozac and general info on depression, neuro transmitters, ect.
j
Posted by Diane on November 1, 1999, at 20:09:49
In reply to Re: Books on ADs? , posted by saint james on November 1, 1999, at 19:52:08
> James here...
> I like "Listening to Prozac" , it has a good history of AD's up to Prozac and general info on depression, neuro transmitters, ect.
Alright. I was wondering about that book. Been hearing about it for awhile. Now I'll read it.
THANKS James
Posted by saint james on November 1, 1999, at 21:26:33
In reply to Re: Books> James, posted by Diane on November 1, 1999, at 20:09:49
> > James here...
> > I like "Listening to Prozac" , it has a good history of AD's up to Prozac and general info on depression, neuro transmitters, ect.
>
> Alright. I was wondering about that book. Been hearing about it for awhile. Now I'll read it.
> THANKS JamesJames here...
The full title is "Listening to Prozac A Psychatrist explores antidepressant drugs and the
remaking of the self " by Dr. Peter D. Kramer
ISBN # 0-670-84183-8. Took me a while to find my copy ! If you are not near a big library do an inter-library loan.j
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 1, 1999, at 23:17:26
In reply to Re: Books> James, posted by saint james on November 1, 1999, at 21:26:33
> If you are not near a big library do an inter-library loan.
Or if you want your own copy, consider the "Books" link at the top of the main page, which takes you to:
http://www.dr-bob.org/read
Bob :-)
Posted by Elizabeth on November 3, 1999, at 12:30:15
In reply to Re: Books, posted by Dr. Bob on November 1, 1999, at 23:17:26
> http://www.dr-bob.org/read
A couple things on here that stood out were Stahl's _Essential Psychopharmacology_ and the _APP Textbook of Psychopharmacology_ (Schatzberg & Nemeroff, eds.).
Another one that's good is Schatzberg, Cole, and Debattista's _Manual of Clinical Psychopharmacology_. I don't have a copy but I've looked through it and it looks like an excellent reference.
(There's a review at http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/155/6/848.)
Posted by Tom on November 3, 1999, at 15:30:15
In reply to Re: Books, posted by Elizabeth on November 3, 1999, at 12:30:15
> > http://www.dr-bob.org/read
>
> A couple things on here that stood out were Stahl's _Essential Psychopharmacology_ and the _APP Textbook of Psychopharmacology_ (Schatzberg & Nemeroff, eds.).
>
> Another one that's good is Schatzberg, Cole, and Debattista's _Manual of Clinical Psychopharmacology_. I don't have a copy but I've looked through it and it looks like an excellent reference.
>
> (There's a review at http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/155/6/848.)If you had the displeasure of reading some of my horror story posts in the past then you would know why I am recommending that you also read, for the sake of balance (all life must have balance, you can look it up), TALKING BACK TO PROZAC, by Peter Breggin.
I'm sure Elizabeth will get terribly annoyed by my recommendation, but I consider the book essential reading for anyone taking an AD. It is not wise to stick your head in the sand and ignore both sides of any argument, especially one as critical as mental health.
Happy reading.
Tom
Posted by Elizabeth on November 4, 1999, at 23:58:59
In reply to Re: Books, posted by Tom on November 3, 1999, at 15:30:15
> If you had the displeasure of reading some of my horror story posts in the past then you would know why I am recommending that you also read, for the sake of balance (all life must have balance, you can look it up), TALKING BACK TO PROZAC, by Peter Breggin.
That's a bad reason to recommend it. (A good reason might be "for your amusement.")
As it happens, I have a medication horror story or two, myself, but I don't go around hysterically condemning medications as a whole. Peter Breggin, who I suspect has never even taken the things himself, does.
If you actually want information, find a well written, honest book that takes a stance for reasons other than emotional or financial ones. If you want to learn about what antidepressants (and other psych drugs) actually do, Schatzberg & Nemeroff is about the most comprehensive volume I can think of. The contributors to this volume certainly are not shy about discussing the adverse effects of these medications, in a *balanced* way. The writing is not so much from a "pro-medication" stance, as from a stance of simply spreading information. (In particular, there's a nice discussion of the "do antidepressants ever cause suicidal ideation?" issue on pages 717-8.) The contributors *don't* make sweeping claims about all antidepressants being bad (or good) in all circumstances. The same cannot be said for Dr. Breggin, who seems (from his writing and from the one time I heard him speak, at least) to have a very black-and-white world view.
> I'm sure Elizabeth will get terribly annoyed by my recommendation, but I consider the book essential reading for anyone taking an AD. It is not wise to stick your head in the sand and ignore both sides of any argument, especially one as critical as mental health.
(Flattered that you saw fit to single me out, Tom.)
I don't consider this an argument with just two sides, but there are extremists on both sides. Breggin and his kind are at best laughable and at worst dangerous.
Posted by Tom on November 5, 1999, at 13:52:43
In reply to Re: Books, posted by Elizabeth on November 4, 1999, at 23:58:59
> > If you had the displeasure of reading some of my horror story posts in the past then you would know why I am recommending that you also read, for the sake of balance (all life must have balance, you can look it up), TALKING BACK TO PROZAC, by Peter Breggin.
>
> That's a bad reason to recommend it. (A good reason might be "for your amusement.")
>
> As it happens, I have a medication horror story or two, myself, but I don't go around hysterically condemning medications as a whole. Peter Breggin, who I suspect has never even taken the things himself, does.
>
> If you actually want information, find a well written, honest book that takes a stance for reasons other than emotional or financial ones. If you want to learn about what antidepressants (and other psych drugs) actually do, Schatzberg & Nemeroff is about the most comprehensive volume I can think of. The contributors to this volume certainly are not shy about discussing the adverse effects of these medications, in a *balanced* way. The writing is not so much from a "pro-medication" stance, as from a stance of simply spreading information. (In particular, there's a nice discussion of the "do antidepressants ever cause suicidal ideation?" issue on pages 717-8.) The contributors *don't* make sweeping claims about all antidepressants being bad (or good) in all circumstances. The same cannot be said for Dr. Breggin, who seems (from his writing and from the one time I heard him speak, at least) to have a very black-and-white world view.
>
> > I'm sure Elizabeth will get terribly annoyed by my recommendation, but I consider the book essential reading for anyone taking an AD. It is not wise to stick your head in the sand and ignore both sides of any argument, especially one as critical as mental health.
>
> (Flattered that you saw fit to single me out, Tom.)
>
> I don't consider this an argument with just two sides, but there are extremists on both sides. Breggin and his kind are at best laughable and at worst dangerous.Elizabeth,
Breggin defends people in court who have become suicidal and murderous on Prozac and have ruined their own lives and the lives of others because of Prozac. You may think thats not true, but it almost happened to me. I believe the man has more courage than a thousand doctors put together. But that doesn't make him dangerous in my opinion. I believe he is an essential voice in today's slanted medical view on mental illness. Breggin is helping the pendulum swing back. And for the work he does on behalf of those who have been ruined by the medicinal approach leads me to believe that he should not be ignored.
Additionaly, the only thing I remember about you and Breggin in your previous postings was your petty personal attack regarding his presentation style. Otherwise I think your posts have been forgettable for me (I know other people love your posts; you appear to be a valuable resource for alot of readers). But that is something I didn't forget about you. I couldn't care less if Breggin spoke Chinese and I couldn't understand a word he spoke, as long as his message got across. There is nothing laughable or dangerous about him in my opinion.
You may also think I'm from the Church of Scientology or some other radical group. That would be wrong. 20 years of mental illness and 15-20 psychiatric drugs later still haven't changed my opinion about Breggin.
Best regards,
Tom
Posted by Elizabeth on November 5, 1999, at 23:26:03
In reply to Re: Books, posted by Tom on November 5, 1999, at 13:52:43
> Breggin defends people in court who have become suicidal and murderous on Prozac and have ruined their own lives and the lives of others because of Prozac.
So he's now impersonating a lawyer as well as impersonating a researcher?
> You may think thats not true, but it almost happened to me.
Sometimes, things happen while a person is taking a medication that are caused by something else (e.g., the person happens to catch a cold or have a heart attack at that time), and because of their timing they are misattributed to the medication. That two things occur at the same time does not imply that there must have been a cause-effect relationship between the two.
That said, the hype surrounding this issue has caused a number of researchers to look into whether SSRI drugs can cause increased suicidal ideation. Despite the lack of evidence of increased suicidal ideation, because of occasional case reports this is regarded as a possible rare side effect of these and other antidepressant drugs. It has been reported with all antidepressants, not just the SSRIs (the risk may be greater with amitriptyline and maprotiline), and in patients with a variety of primary diagnoses (depression, panic disorder, OCD, personality disorder, etc.; it's been suggested that those with histories of impulsive-aggressive behavior are at greater risk). It has been hypothesized that the cause is akathisia (a type of extrapyramidal effect), and a possible mechanism has been proposed. (This hypothesis remains untested.)
Tom, I haven't read your story in particular (I don't read all the threads), but I will gladly do so if you will tell me a thread title and date.
> Additionaly, the only thing I remember about you and Breggin in your previous postings was your petty personal attack regarding his presentation style.
Huh? If I had anything to say about his presentation style it would refer to his loaded word choice. However, what concerns me is that he uses his degree to claim credibility on subjects he doesn't really know much about -- pharmacology being an example.
> You may also think I'm from the Church of Scientology or some other radical group.
Not necessarily, but I think that you and people like you who are hurting and looking for a scapegoat are at risk for being sucked into cults (not necessarily Scientology in particular).
Posted by Adam on November 7, 1999, at 13:11:41
In reply to Re: Books, posted by Elizabeth on November 5, 1999, at 23:26:03
I tried reading "Taling Back to Prozac" and got too annoyed. I've also read a number
of interviews and lectures. They sparked my interest but ultimately disturbed me.I'm not qualified to comment on Breggin's lack of expertise in certain areas, but
what seems clear to me is his tendancy to distort. One simply cannot make responsible
claims of the kind he makes based on the evidence he draws from.That there is a real (but at this point unquantifiable) tension created by the drive
to generate capital and the need to accurately report on the adverse effects of
psychotropics should be obvious. Breggin would have us believe that pharmaceutical
companies deliberately poison and dement society's most vulnerable for the almighty
dollar. This is simply going too far. Breggin magnifies the importance of isolated,
aberrant, and causally uncertain phenomena to support his assertions. Breggin
repeatedly ignores the need for critical thinking while simultaneously demonizing others
for the same transgressions, even when such accusations are unfounded.I tend to think that if anyone is trying to cash in on the misfortune of others, it's
Peter Breggin. That's an oppinion, based, perhaps, on scant evidence. I, at least,
am willing to admit that.Again, in my oppinion, if Breggin's work has any value, it is that he does cite the
work of others more scientific and responsible than himself. One can extract some
useful information from his writings, and peruse his references.
Posted by Tom on November 7, 1999, at 21:29:50
In reply to Re: Books, posted by Elizabeth on November 5, 1999, at 23:26:03
> > Breggin defends people in court who have become suicidal and murderous on Prozac and have ruined their own lives and the lives of others because of Prozac.
>
> So he's now impersonating a lawyer as well as impersonating a researcher?
>No, as an expert witness. Its funny when Eli Lilly brings an elephant gun to the court room to shoot a mouse. Their behavior in these cases against Breggin and others who have been destroyed by Prozac is just reprehensible. Ely was only interested in destroying more people in court at the expense of people whose lives were already destroyed by their drug.
> > You may think thats not true, but it almost happened to me.
>
> Sometimes, things happen while a person is taking a medication that are caused by something else (e.g., the person happens to catch a cold or have a heart attack at that time), and because of their timing they are misattributed to the medication. That two things occur at the same time does not imply that there must have been a cause-effect relationship between the two.
>Uh, no, it had nothing to do with anything else. After reading other people's accounts of what seriously went wrong with them while taking Prozac, it was comforting to not be alone. Lets just say I'm 100% certain about what Prozac's cause-effect relationship did to me.
> That said, the hype surrounding this issue has caused a number of researchers to look into whether SSRI drugs can cause increased suicidal ideation. Despite the lack of evidence of increased suicidal ideation, because of occasional case reports this is regarded as a possible rare side effect of these and other antidepressant drugs. It has been reported with all antidepressants, not just the SSRIs (the risk may be greater with amitriptyline and maprotiline), and in patients with a variety of primary diagnoses (depression, panic disorder, OCD, personality disorder, etc.; it's been suggested that those with histories of impulsive-aggressive behavior are at greater risk). It has been hypothesized that the cause is akathisia (a type of extrapyramidal effect), and a possible mechanism has been proposed. (This hypothesis remains untested.)
>I became suicidal on Prozac. I had no other history of suicidal ideation up to that point. I believe the statistics are 3 in 100 that you may have a adverse reaction resulting in suicidal ideation on Prozac. These may be acceptable results if one was looking at the greater good that Prozac and meds in general provide, but 99% of the doctors prescribing these meds would never warn you about this nor admit that it can happen. I used to get angry about this...now I have no reaction at all. Its business as usual.
> Tom, I haven't read your story in particular (I don't read all the threads), but I will gladly do so if you will tell me a thread title and date.
>I doubt I could find it. Don't really care to either.
> > Additionaly, the only thing I remember about you and Breggin in your previous postings was your petty personal attack regarding his presentation style.
>
> Huh? If I had anything to say about his presentation style it would refer to his loaded word choice. However, what concerns me is that he uses his degree to claim credibility on subjects he doesn't really know much about -- pharmacology being an example.Well, I remembered. Not sure why. Maybe because you come off as an expert on this site to many posters, but it my personal belief you are asking people to expend too much energy on the medical answer. I think the pendulum has swung to far to meds.
> > You may also think I'm from the Church of Scientology or some other radical group.
>
> Not necessarily, but I think that you and people like you who are hurting and looking for a scapegoat are at risk for being sucked into cults (not necessarily Scientology in particular).I'm not looking for a scapegoat. My suffering came as a result of deep emotional pain that I couldn't face up to. I was told medicine had all the answers to my problems. Medicine almost ruined me. Medicine is still in the ice ages when it comes to mental illness in my opinion. The real healing lies inside each one of us today. We're all terribly frightened to choose that route first...
Posted by Elizabeth on November 8, 1999, at 0:48:00
In reply to Re: Books, posted by Tom on November 7, 1999, at 21:29:50
> No, as an expert witness.
Arguably he is something less than expert when it comes to psychopharmacotherapy.
> Its funny when Eli Lilly brings an elephant gun to the court room to shoot a mouse. Their behavior in these cases against Breggin and others who have been destroyed by Prozac is just reprehensible. Ely was only interested in destroying more people in court at the expense of people whose lives were already destroyed by their drug.
This is rather impressionistic, though I would love to hear some specific examples (sounds rather juicy, in fact).
> Uh, no, it had nothing to do with anything else. After reading other people's accounts of what seriously went wrong with them while taking Prozac, it was comforting to not be alone. Lets just say I'm 100% certain about what Prozac's cause-effect relationship did to me.
You give me little reason to believe that it was or that it wasn't.
> I became suicidal on Prozac. I had no other history of suicidal ideation up to that point. I believe the statistics are 3 in 100 that you may have a adverse reaction resulting in suicidal ideation on Prozac.
Where did you hear this statistic? I will be glad to take a look.
> These may be acceptable results if one was looking at the greater good that Prozac and meds in general provide, but 99% of the doctors prescribing these meds would never warn you about this nor admit that it can happen.
I think that this sort of event might be due to akathisia in a number of cases. It's been suggested that propranolol (which is used to treat extrapyramidal effects from neuroleptics) could help.
> I doubt I could find it. Don't really care to either.
Suit yourself.
> Well, I remembered. Not sure why. Maybe because you come off as an expert on this site to many posters, but it my personal belief you are asking people to expend too much energy on the medical answer.
Do you have any idea what led you to form this impression?
I don't think I come off as an "expert." I certainly never have claimed to be anything of the sort.
> I think the pendulum has swung to far to meds.
Well, you have a vendetta; of course you think that. (Note: this is the same kind of thinking as "the drug company funded this study, so the results don't really mean anything.")
> I'm not looking for a scapegoat. My suffering came as a result of deep emotional pain that I couldn't face up to. I was told medicine had all the answers to my problems. Medicine almost ruined me. Medicine is still in the ice ages when it comes to mental illness in my opinion. The real healing lies inside each one of us today. We're all terribly frightened to choose that route first...
Maybe not the ice ages, but perhaps the middle ages. Anyway, I've never told anyone who had some specific life problem, memory, or situation that had led them to feel bad that they should rely on medication alone. I don't believe they -- you -- should. I also don't believe that anyone here is relying exclusively on medication; if nothing else, it takes a very strong person to repair the damage that psych disorders can wreak on one's life. It's hard to exorcise a demon that isn't there, though; for many of us, there is no uncaring mother to blame, no trauma to work through, no nice neat wound to stitch.
This is the end of the thread.
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