Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 14028

Shown: posts 1 to 19 of 19. This is the beginning of the thread.

 

ENERGY

Posted by Carol on October 27, 1999, at 17:01:39

Anybody have any suggestions (non prescription) on energy booster? I've spent hundreds of dollars on everything in the health stores that said "increases energy", and have never found anything that I could even tell I had taken something! Sometimes, I think I could handle the depression if I could just get my butt off the couch and get some stuff done!
And don't you all just want to explode when you hear the advise, "regular exercise increases energy"? Duh! But if I had the energy to exercise, I wouldn't have a problem, now would I?
Carol

 

Re: ENERGY

Posted by bigb on October 27, 1999, at 22:03:44

In reply to ENERGY, posted by Carol on October 27, 1999, at 17:01:39

> Anybody have any suggestions (non prescription) on energy booster? I've spent hundreds of dollars on everything in the health stores that said "increases energy", and have never found anything that I could even tell I had taken something! Sometimes, I think I could handle the depression if I could just get my butt off the couch and get some stuff done!
> And don't you all just want to explode when you hear the advise, "regular exercise increases energy"? Duh! But if I had the energy to exercise, I wouldn't have a problem, now would I?
> Carol

Hi Carol
Are you currently on medications (AD's) for depression,
especially for the first time? If so, you need to
check with your Doc. It could be many things such as
giving your body more time to assimilate, wrong dose,
time for a med-change, etc, etc.

If not, lack of motivation, fatigue,(etc, ad nauseum) are some
indicators of depression and a gallon of energy-
shake at the Happy Health bar won't help. You need
to treat the depression first (ADs or ADs/therapy).
Hang in there!

 

Re: ENERGY

Posted by JohnL on October 28, 1999, at 3:49:04

In reply to ENERGY, posted by Carol on October 27, 1999, at 17:01:39

Hi Carol. I guess there are diffferent ways to look at this. I tend to fall into the camp that says depression is the cause of your symptoms. And that unless that is addressed, no energy boosters are likely to help much. If they would, then a gallon of coffee should do the trick. But I doubt it would, right?

In the old days depression was treated with stimulants. Even today it's still treated that way sometimes in senior citizens. And stimulants are commonly used as boosters for antidepressants. If you make your case well, you could convince a cooperative doctor to start you on a prescrip stimulant as a first-line choice. Rather then going the normal route of SSRIs with the possibility of eventually ending up with a stimulant. Just a thought. A simple commonly prescribed stimulant, like Ritalin for ADD, might be just what you need to get the chemistry thing in balance. I mean, after all, they prescribe this stuff to millions of children all the time. I don't agree with that issue, but that's another story... Just wanted to point out that there are simple prescrips that might be all you need. And if children can take them....

Also I was curious. You mentioned everything in the health store has been tried. What is everything? I assume ginseng, gingko, stuff like that. What else? Can you supply a list of what has been tried and for how long on each? There may be other options overlooked, like DHEA for example. Or if you tried that, maybe something else. I'm curious as to what has already been tried and for how long. You have my curiosity and I will look forward to your next post. :)

 

Re: ENERGY, to JohnL

Posted by Carol on October 28, 1999, at 7:37:33

In reply to Re: ENERGY, posted by JohnL on October 28, 1999, at 3:49:04

?
>
> In the old days depression was treated with stimulants.
> in the health store has been tried. What is everything? I assume ginseng, gingko, stuff like that. What else? Can you supply a list of what has been tried and for how long on each? There may be other options overlooked, like DHEA for example. Or if you tried that, maybe something else. I'm curious as to what has already been tried and for how long. You have my curiosity and I will look forward to your next post. :)


Hey JohnL,
Let's see...health store - tried all the above, actually, every type of ginseng(korean, siberian, chinese red, american) plus all the "PEP" type stuff(usually, has Ma Huang in it). Inositol, 5htp(both actually recommended for depression), licorice, alfalfa, dong quai, CO Q-10, fish & flax oil(also, recommended for depression), green tea, other herbs I can't remember. About the only thing I haven't tried is SAMe, it's just so expensive! All the above were tried at least 6wks, some longer.
As for meds. Elavil, Zoloft, Prozac, Effexor, all for several months each. Have also done the ritalin thing, but got no results on highest dosage - 20mgs 3 times a day (did get nice results when I EXCEEDED dosage, but not a good idea to keep doing that, so stopped altogether!)
Currently on 400mgs Wellbutrin, but only on 4th week, so may need more time for effectiveness.
So, there ya go! Any comments? Anyone?

 

Re: ENERGY, to JohnL

Posted by Bruce on October 28, 1999, at 7:47:56

In reply to Re: ENERGY, to JohnL, posted by Carol on October 28, 1999, at 7:37:33


> So, there ya go! Any comments? Anyone?

Well, I know SAMe is expensive, but in my view it may be the ultimate 'augmentation strategy'. It really boosts me at 200 mg twice a day. Consider it this way: would you pay $2 - $5 a day to feel MUCH better? I would.

Bruce

 

Re: ENERGY, to Bruce

Posted by Carol on October 28, 1999, at 7:54:05

In reply to Re: ENERGY, to JohnL, posted by Bruce on October 28, 1999, at 7:47:56


> Well, I know SAMe is expensive, but in my view it may be the ultimate 'augmentation strategy'. It really boosts me at 200 mg twice a day. Consider it this way: would you pay $2 - $5 a day to feel MUCH better? I would.
>
> Bruce

Bruce--I agree, it's worth it. But, do you think I can take it with my 400mgs. Wellbutrin? I don't want to stop that until I have been on long enough to judge effectiveness.

 

Re: ENERGY, to Bruce

Posted by Bruce on October 28, 1999, at 8:06:03

In reply to Re: ENERGY, to Bruce, posted by Carol on October 28, 1999, at 7:54:05

>
> > Well, I know SAMe is expensive, but in my view it may be the ultimate 'augmentation strategy'. It really boosts me at 200 mg twice a day. Consider it this way: would you pay $2 - $5 a day to feel MUCH better? I would.
> >
> > Bruce
>
> Bruce--I agree, it's worth it. But, do you think I can take it with my 400mgs. Wellbutrin? I don't want to stop that until I have been on long enough to judge effectiveness.

I would wait for awhile. If you start now, you'll never know if it is the Wellbutrin, the SAMe, or the combination of the two. Give Wellbutrin an 8 week trial, and if you'e not feeling better at that point, start SAMe and ramp up until you certain that the dose is right. SAMe starts working within 1 week in my experience.

Good Luck!

 

Re: ENERGY, to Carol

Posted by JohnL on October 29, 1999, at 3:19:22

In reply to Re: ENERGY, to JohnL, posted by Carol on October 28, 1999, at 7:37:33

Hi Carol. AAhhh yesss. Good answers. That makes the picture more clear. No clear answers though. But some ideas to think about.

If the Ritalin didn't do it, then I agree with you that nothing in a health store will. One thing to keep in mind with stimulants though is that if one doesn't work well, another likely will. There are a couple others that could be tried. So the prescrip stimulant approach is not exhuasted yet. Since ritalin did work at higher than normal doses, that's a good clue you were on the right track.

Concerning Wellbutrin, it's very encouraging you are at 400mg. Some comments on Wellbutrin. These are based on the "Collected Writings of Ivan Goldberg" (easily found with a search if you want to check it out). He's a noted psychiatrist that my own pdoc speaks very highly of. Goldberg pushes Wellbutrin in the 450mg to 600mg range. Unless you are predisposed to seizure risk, my pdoc confirms from his experience that the seizure risk is overblown. Ivan goldberg says Wellbutrin takes at least 8 weeks at 400mg or higher for a fair trial. And that if it hasn't been 400mg or higher for 8 weeks it has not been a good trial. Just to provide a little perspective on the med you are currently using. With you doc's OK, there is a ceiling higher than the current 400mg.

Since you've tried a TCA already (Elavil), there is another you may want to look at if needed. You would want to keep the Wellbutrin at the 400mg level if combined with another med because the combination increases seizure risk. But with or without Wellbutrin, the TCA Vivactil (Protriptyline) is known for being stimulating. It is even warned on the label not to dose late in the afternoon due to difficulty sleeping if dosed too late in the day. I have also read in some case reports where Wellbutrin+TCA was used successfully on refractory depression that didn't respond to other combinations.

So, some possibilities to ponder.... Higher dose Wellbutrin. Wellbutrin+Vivactil. Vivactil. Wellbutrin+different stimulant. Different stimulant. Vivactil+different stimulant. T3/T4 (thyroid) with any of the meds or combos of meds. And in the overseas arena, Reboxetine, Amineptine, Amisulpride. So, just when you thought it was near the end of the line, there are lots of other options in my opinion. The Wellbutrin alone might well do it though. Give it that full 8 weeks at the highest dose your doc will allow and make an evaluation then. In the meantime, lots of approaches to ponder. I sure feel for you and want something to work. Hope these ideas might help. There are others I haven't thought about, I'm sure. Lots of knowledgable people here with good ideas likely better than the ones I've thought of. I'm sure there are other things I haven't thought of yet. :)

 

Re: ENERGY, to Carol, re Bruce

Posted by JohnL on October 29, 1999, at 3:23:14

In reply to Re: ENERGY, to Bruce, posted by Bruce on October 28, 1999, at 8:06:03

Carol, I really like Bruce's suggestion of SAMe. And his suggestion on how to approach it seems excellent. This would be so easy to try. And yes, it is safe with Wellbutrin. Like Bruce said though, wait the 8 weeks to avoid clouding the picture.

 

Re: ENERGY--chicken and egg

Posted by Noa on October 29, 1999, at 7:37:18

In reply to Re: ENERGY, to Carol, re Bruce, posted by JohnL on October 29, 1999, at 3:23:14

Carol, I can relate. I also think the etiology question is not easily answered--interaction between depression and subsequent inactivity, etc. It is so hard to break the cycle.

I always thing a multipronged approach is best. Some of the suggestions above might help. Also, take "baby steps" to do a little activity. And, a new question--how is your sleep? Perhaps there is something not right in your sleep patterns, ie a sleep disorder. For me, it was apnea. I was always extremely sleepy, fatigued and assumed it was a symptom of the depression, but it was not that simple. Once the apnea was treated, I was more awake, had a more energy (still not enough, but at least I was awake).

 

Re: ENERGY

Posted by JohnL on October 29, 1999, at 13:51:08

In reply to ENERGY, posted by Carol on October 27, 1999, at 17:01:39

Hi Carol. I know my last post was kinda long so I'll keep this short. I thought of one combo I was on once that was VERY stimulating. Too much for me. Probably doesn't happen with everyone, but I've heard of this combo being described as "magical" by one doc who likes it. Was magically stimulating to me. But that's not what I wanted.

Zoloft+Buspar. Zoloft is approved for panic disorder. Buspar for anxiety. Why in the world the two together lit me up I have no idea. I have never been more stimulated than anything in my life. So much I couldn't take it. I'm not the only one. I've heard of this before. Something uniquely synergistic about Zoloft+Buspar, different than any other SSRI+Buspar.

 

Re: magically stimulating? Zoloft+Buspar-JohnL

Posted by Diane on October 30, 1999, at 17:09:29

In reply to Re: ENERGY, posted by JohnL on October 29, 1999, at 13:51:08

> but I've heard of this combo being described as "magical" by one doc who likes it. Was magically stimulating to me.
>
> Zoloft+Buspar. I have never been more stimulated than anything in my life. Something uniquely synergistic about Zoloft+Buspar, different than any other SSRI+Buspar.

JohnL

When you say " magically stimulating " what do you mean?
I'm looking for stimulating BUT not the grit your teeth, coffee jitters, major heart attack
type.
Could you explain the stimulation you were experiencing in more detail, please?

Thanks
Diane

 

Re: magically stimulating? Zoloft+Buspar-Diane

Posted by JohnL on October 30, 1999, at 20:35:41

In reply to Re: magically stimulating? Zoloft+Buspar-JohnL, posted by Diane on October 30, 1999, at 17:09:29

> When you say " magically stimulating " what do you mean?
> I'm looking for stimulating BUT not the grit your teeth, coffee jitters, major heart attack
> type.
> Could you explain the stimulation you were experiencing in more detail, please?
>
> Thanks
> Diane

I'll try Diane. The word magical actually came from a doctor's description of this combo in Dr Bob's Pharm Tips. I emailed him several times to ask what HE meant by magical but never got a response.

Racing heart...yes. Not continuous, but in spells. Gritting teeth...no. Coffee jitters...kinda, sorta, in a way, maybe (I love that saying :) ) Sorry, I find it hard to describe. Just lots of energy, pep, get up and go. I had to keep on the move to keep up with what my body and my mind wanted to do. Not comfortable sitting still. Had to get up and do something. But that's just me. It was a bit much for my sensitivity and I was not able to stay with it for more than a week. Thus I never got a chance to see if it would have been magical or not. I remember a girl Ruth who used to come here who said she was "treading water" on Zoloft+Buspar. Nothing magical to her I guess. To me the combo was more stimulating than any amphetamine.

 

Re: magically stimulating? Zoloft+Buspar-Diane

Posted by anita on November 1, 1999, at 21:06:47

In reply to Re: magically stimulating? Zoloft+Buspar-Diane, posted by JohnL on October 30, 1999, at 20:35:41

Zoloft is supposed to have some mild dopaminergic properties, and I thought I read somewhere that Buspar may as well. So maybe when you combine the two, the dopamine effect, which is like what's described below for me, comes into play. I.e., it's like amphetamine.

anita

> > When you say " magically stimulating " what do you mean?
> > I'm looking for stimulating BUT not the grit your teeth, coffee jitters, major heart attack
> > type.
> > Could you explain the stimulation you were experiencing in more detail, please?
> >
> > Thanks
> > Diane
>
> I'll try Diane. The word magical actually came from a doctor's description of this combo in Dr Bob's Pharm Tips. I emailed him several times to ask what HE meant by magical but never got a response.
>
> Racing heart...yes. Not continuous, but in spells. Gritting teeth...no. Coffee jitters...kinda, sorta, in a way, maybe (I love that saying :) ) Sorry, I find it hard to describe. Just lots of energy, pep, get up and go. I had to keep on the move to keep up with what my body and my mind wanted to do. Not comfortable sitting still. Had to get up and do something. But that's just me. It was a bit much for my sensitivity and I was not able to stay with it for more than a week. Thus I never got a chance to see if it would have been magical or not. I remember a girl Ruth who used to come here who said she was "treading water" on Zoloft+Buspar. Nothing magical to her I guess. To me the combo was more stimulating than any amphetamine.

 

Did Zoloft/Buspar work for Social Phobia?

Posted by JohnB on November 3, 1999, at 22:56:24

In reply to ENERGY, posted by Carol on October 27, 1999, at 17:01:39

Hi, just wondering if this works for social phobia and if there were any negative side effects, such as weight gain, sexual dysfunction, impaired cognition, or impaired short-term memory. Thanks very much! JohnB

 

Re: Did Zoloft/Buspar work for Social Phobia?

Posted by Bob on November 4, 1999, at 8:45:52

In reply to Did Zoloft/Buspar work for Social Phobia?, posted by JohnB on November 3, 1999, at 22:56:24

While not diagnosed as having social phobia, I've always been one of those "painfully shy" folk. No assertiveness, no ambition. Zoloft certainly changed that for me. 180 degrees in the opposite direction.

Negatives? 40 extra pounds (even with THIS, any self-consiousness doesn't impede me), 80 points on my total cholesterol and triglycerides off the scale, no sexual desire (so that social assertiveness goes unused in some arenas), emotions like teflon (the stick as long as a situation lasts, then back to numb). Cognitively, I've functioned best on zoloft. I felt it was at least in part due to the same effect that increased my assertiveness & ambition -- I'm more of a risk taker and much less of a "timid" thinker. All the same, enough negatives to kick my Z habit.

Of course, as st. james likes to say, your mileage may vary....

Bob

 

TO Bob: Zoloft/Buspar Dosage and side effects?

Posted by JohnB on November 5, 1999, at 19:30:11

In reply to Re: Did Zoloft/Buspar work for Social Phobia?, posted by Bob on November 4, 1999, at 8:45:52

Hi, Bob. Sounds like Zoloft/Buspar is a great combination and should work for Social Phobia, too!!!!!!!!

A FEW QUESTIONS, IF YOU DON'T MIND -
(1) HOW MUCH ZOLOFT AND BUSPAR TO YOU TAKE DAILY?? I understand you can go up to 200 mg/day of Zoloft and 60 mg/day of Buspar.
(2) ANY SEXUAL DYSFUNCTION (AROUSAL, ERECTILE, DELAYED ORGASM, AD NAUSEUM)?
(3) ANY IMPAIRMENT OF THINKING OR MEMORY?
(4) HAS THIS INCREASED OR DECREASED YOUR ENERGY LEVEL?
(5) HAVE YOU TAKEN ANYTHING ELSE AND COULD YOU TELL ME HOW THIS COMPARES IN TERMS OF ANXIETY?
a) compared to Nardil?
b) compared to Klonopin?
c) compared to Celexa?
d) compared to Remeron


Thanks very, very, very much, Bob!!!!!

JohnB

p.s. it might be easiest for you to type your answers right next to each of my questions

 

Right back atcha JohnB

Posted by Bob on November 5, 1999, at 21:53:20

In reply to TO Bob: Zoloft/Buspar Dosage and side effects?, posted by JohnB on November 5, 1999, at 19:30:11

> A FEW QUESTIONS, IF YOU DON'T MIND -
> (1) HOW MUCH ZOLOFT AND BUSPAR TO YOU TAKE DAILY??
Guess I didn't say it clearly in my post -- I haven't taken buspar at all. At various times, I've had zoloft solo, with lithium, and most recently with nortriptyline ... also with clonazepam (generic klonopin) with the last two. The relief I've had from any social anxiety has been at any level of Z -- from 50mg to 200mg. Z has been much better for me in terms of addressing social anxiety and some ocd issues than as an AD.

> (2) ANY SEXUAL DYSFUNCTION (AROUSAL, ERECTILE, DELAYED ORGASM, AD NAUSEUM)?
For me, no desire whatsoever. Some delayed orgasm which, as others have pointed out, can actually be a benefit if it's not so pronounced. But the complete lack of desire at 200mg has been the focus (tho not the sole reason) of why my current relationship is on the rocks.

> (3) ANY IMPAIRMENT OF THINKING OR MEMORY?
The opposite. Once I've stabilized at a therapeutic dose, I've found my mind much clearer and focused.

> (4) HAS THIS INCREASED OR DECREASED YOUR ENERGY LEVEL?
Big decrease.

> (5) HAVE YOU TAKEN ANYTHING ELSE AND COULD YOU TELL ME HOW THIS COMPARES IN TERMS OF ANXIETY?
> b) compared to Klonopin?
For me, the two addressed different aspects of my anxiety/panic issues. While Z erased my anxiety strictly wrt social situations, it did nothing for the free-floating anxiety or panic attacks I would have. Clonazepam has erased that for me. As for Z vs other SSRIs, it was better for me than prozac and way better than paxil (then again, hooking some jumper cables up to a car battery and the other end of the cables to my ears would have been better for me than paxil!). Wellbutrin solo did nothing for my anxiety -- it agitated me more than anything else. As for TCAs, in a few more weeks I'll be clean of Z (down to 25mg.day on Monday, and thankfully still no withdrawal) and then I'll be able to say whether nortriptyline+clonazepam handles my various forms of anxiety/panic as well.

As always, your mileage may vary.
Good Luck
Bob

 

THANKS, BOB

Posted by JOHNB on November 6, 1999, at 13:42:24

In reply to Right back atcha JohnB, posted by Bob on November 5, 1999, at 21:53:20

MUCHOS GRACIAS, SENIOR ROBERTO. JOHNB :)


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