Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 13986

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Drugs and Drugs

Posted by Adam on October 26, 1999, at 22:40:01

I've not seen such a thread here, the subject came up, and, well
I'm one who likes things on the table. I will not judge, and do
not expect to be judged. I do wish to get a useful discussion
going.

So, a friend asked me if I would like to try ecstacy, otherwise
known as MDMA. Not even thinking of potential drug interactions,
I said I would think about it, and then, considering I am in a
drug study and the impact of any psychactives on that study, declined.
Out of curiosity, I did some research online, for future reference,
and discovered that it would have been a REALLY BAD idea for me to
have done X on an MAOI. MDMA is a potent sympathomimetic acting
on both the dopamine (less so) and serotonin (very much so) systems.
The result of such a combination could well have been lethal. What
I found through my research was the potentiation of LOTS of things
by MAOIs, with some very disturbing potential outcomes. One thing
that stood out in my mind was the quantitative and qualitative
intensification of hallucinogens, with people describing all kinds of
horrific experiences.

The only substance I use, really, is beer. I have very infrequently
tried other things, and am generally open to such experiences if I feel
it is reasonably safe. I might have eschewed X under any circumstances
given its inherent risks, but other things are less clearly harmful,
and the potential for interactions less obvious. I probably will stay
away from any and all illicit substances for good, given my low
tolerance for psychic pain, but others might be inclined to experiment
anyway.

I don't want to encourage drug use or discourage it. But maybe some
would like a forum to discuss frankly the use of all these interesting
chemicals, and how they might interact with, A) Our illness, and B) the
other drugs we are using to combat it.

Like I said, the issue came up, and I figured it could be relevant to
some.

 

Re: Drugs and Drugs

Posted by Carol on October 27, 1999, at 15:37:23

In reply to Drugs and Drugs, posted by Adam on October 26, 1999, at 22:40:01

> I've not seen such a thread here, the subject came up, and, well
> I'm one who likes things on the table. I will not judge,

Have not used illegal drugs, but sometimes have painkillers (tylox, lortab) for legitimate reasons, then keep taking them for the feeling. I often think (particularly w/tylox) gee, why can't they make and anti-depressant that makes me feel this way? It's really not even a "high", it's just a basic feeling of well-being, the feeling most people get to have that 'life is good and I'm glad to be here'.
Also, drink a few beers now and then, but have found that it really ends up making me feel worse, since I've been on anti-depressants.
Like Adam, I would love to see more discussion of this topic.

 

Re: Drugs and Drugs

Posted by kerry on October 27, 1999, at 15:47:04

In reply to Re: Drugs and Drugs, posted by Carol on October 27, 1999, at 15:37:23

Since we're being open and non-judgmental. I'll tell you what little I know on this subject. My doc told me to try and stay away from alcohol and marijuana while i was on anti-depressants for the simple reason that they are depressant drugs, so it sort of defeats the purpose. Nevertheless, on several social occasions, I have experimented with both while on a small dosage of AD's. Nothing bad happened. I wouldn't fool around with hallucinogenic stuff though, or anything else really strong. Ditto for getting totally drunk etc. Everything in moderation i guess...

 

Re: Drugs and Drugs

Posted by Elizabeth on October 27, 1999, at 16:22:16

In reply to Drugs and Drugs, posted by Adam on October 26, 1999, at 22:40:01

Adam,

It's interesting that doctors never mention these interactions when prescribing meds to us, isn't it? I wonder why that is. The MDMA-MAOI interaction is pretty well known.

> One thing
> that stood out in my mind was the quantitative and qualitative
> intensification of hallucinogens, with people describing all kinds of
> horrific experiences.

Really? I'm surprised by that. Which hallucinogens do you mean?

LSD is generally rendered ineffective, or nearly so, by chronic MAOI use. Don't know of any case reports, but the same should presumably be true of psychedelic mushrooms. Mescaline might cause cardiovascular problems since it is related to amphetamine.

> I don't want to encourage drug use or discourage it.

Heh, doesn't that go on all the time here?

(There really isn't any specific pharmacological or chemical characteristic that distinguishes legal drugs from illegal ones, after all.)

> But maybe some
> would like a forum to discuss frankly the use of all these interesting
> chemicals, and how they might interact with, A) Our illness, and B) the
> other drugs we are using to combat it.

I don't know of any solid evidence to support this, but some people believe that a drug experience (often with marijuana, cocaine, or amphetamines (or MDMA)) triggered their panic disorder.

On the other hand, it's well known that people sometimes use any of a number of "non-medical drugs" to self-medicate depression and anxiety. I'm thinking of alcohol, heroin, cocaine, and amphetamine in particular, but I've heard of people using LSD, high-dose dextromethorphan (another MAOI no-no, BTW), ketamine, and even nitrous oxide (I kid you not) to the same end.

 

Re: Drugs and Drugs

Posted by Sean on October 27, 1999, at 17:25:02

In reply to Drugs and Drugs, posted by Adam on October 26, 1999, at 22:40:01

> I've not seen such a thread here, the subject came up, and, well
> I'm one who likes things on the table. I will not judge, and do
> not expect to be judged. I do wish to get a useful discussion
> going.
>
> So, a friend asked me if I would like to try ecstacy, otherwise
> known as MDMA. Not even thinking of potential drug interactions,
> I said I would think about it, and then, considering I am in a
> drug study and the impact of any psychactives on that study, declined.
> Out of curiosity, I did some research online, for future reference,
> and discovered that it would have been a REALLY BAD idea for me to
> have done X on an MAOI. MDMA is a potent sympathomimetic acting
> on both the dopamine (less so) and serotonin (very much so) systems.
> The result of such a combination could well have been lethal. What
> I found through my research was the potentiation of LOTS of things
> by MAOIs, with some very disturbing potential outcomes. One thing
> that stood out in my mind was the quantitative and qualitative
> intensification of hallucinogens, with people describing all kinds of
> horrific experiences.
>
> The only substance I use, really, is beer. I have very infrequently
> tried other things, and am generally open to such experiences if I feel
> it is reasonably safe. I might have eschewed X under any circumstances
> given its inherent risks, but other things are less clearly harmful,
> and the potential for interactions less obvious. I probably will stay
> away from any and all illicit substances for good, given my low
> tolerance for psychic pain, but others might be inclined to experiment
> anyway.
>
> I don't want to encourage drug use or discourage it. But maybe some
> would like a forum to discuss frankly the use of all these interesting
> chemicals, and how they might interact with, A) Our illness, and B) the
> other drugs we are using to combat it.
>
> Like I said, the issue came up, and I figured it could be relevant to
> some.

Not that I have, ahem, any personal experience in
any of this mind you, but semi-reliable sources on
the streets tell me the following:

(1) SSRI's are good with marijuana and mushrooms
in addition to being neuroprotective with
MDMA. They interfere with the action of MDMA
however, and since MDMA is a known serotonergic
toxin, people with potential problems in this
part of their brain should stay away from e.

(2) TCA's are not so hot with alcohol, speed, and
e. With pot, TCA's result in a case of cottonmouth
from which one may never recover...

(3) Long term use of SSRI's and MAOI's can mitigate
the effect of LSD.

(4) GABA-ergic drugs (benzos/hypnotics) and any
kind of downer (GHB, alcohol, heroin) is a
*really* bad idea. Marijuana is usually ok.


 

Re: Drugs and Drugs

Posted by Craig on October 27, 1999, at 18:12:12

In reply to Re: Drugs and Drugs, posted by Sean on October 27, 1999, at 17:25:02

I can see my doctor shaking his head and clucking his tongue as I wright, but I have had experiences on many street drugs in combo with ADs. It is correct that doctors take the high road when you ask about interaction..."do you want to get better or keep self meidcated until your addicted, psychotic, or dead?"

For the most part, the sentiment is right, but some docs go overboard regarding simple pleasures such as caffeine, etc.

Anyway, back to the good drugs. Only on Prozac could I stand to smoke marijuana /out feeling terrified and paranoid.

Never did acid on ADs and I don't plan to ever again in general -- can be too heavy for a fragile mind. MDMA, however, simply doesn't work on SSRIs. It doesn't seem to do much on Serzone either.

Coke before ADs bored the hell out of me, but on Prozac, I loved the stuff! It gave me back my sex drive (just before it makes you impotent)and made me feel emotion/fulfillment. That went away after stopping Prozac. One of the reasons I stopped was the Coke use.

I think the way a brain reacts to any substance --street or otherwise -- should be taken seriously. It could serve as a clue to what is happening in the mind.

 

Re: Drugs and Drugs-Elizabeth

Posted by Adam on October 27, 1999, at 18:59:22

In reply to Re: Drugs and Drugs, posted by Elizabeth on October 27, 1999, at 16:22:16


>
> It's interesting that doctors never mention these interactions when prescribing meds to us, isn't it? I wonder why that is. The MDMA-MAOI interaction is pretty well known.

It's not just interesting, it's frigging dangerous. I mean, how many people are as big an info-junkie as me? I don't even have a degree in the health field, why should I
know any of this stuff? And why should anybody else? Doctors, if you're reading, write out a big list of "bad things to do" and make your patients memorize it or something.

Just as an aside, MDMA is a really interesting drug. I don't know weather to be fascinated or horrified by it. One thing is for sure: a depressive like me doesn't need
axonal damage to serotonergic neurons, even if they grow back. But I suppose if you're "healthy" and can deal with giving your brain a good pounding every once in a while,
(hey, you didn't really need all those brain cells, did you?) it sounds like fun. So long as you don't keel over or become hyperpyrexic or something. Rave on.

>
> Really? I'm surprised by that. Which hallucinogens do you mean?
>
> LSD is generally rendered ineffective, or nearly so, by chronic MAOI use. Don't know of any case reports, but the same should presumably be true of psychedelic mushrooms. Mescaline might cause cardiovascular problems since it is related to amphetamine.
>
I actually didn't see anything referring to chronic use, so I can't comment on that. Most of the things I saw referred to the acute use of moclobemide or harmaline as a potentiator. In the case of alkaloids like psilocybin, fer instance, MAOI can't break
them down, so you trip longer, harder, and more vividly. I read one case where a combo of 'shrooms and moc. left a guy tripping for 18 hours straight, gave him terrifying visions the whole time, and left him feeling like he'd been psychically raped by
aliens. I only relay, I cannot verify. But, in the case of chronic use, I imagine this could lead to down-regulation of certain receptors that are responsible for mediating the effects of such drugs. Is this guess correct?

> > I don't want to encourage drug use or discourage it.
>
> Heh, doesn't that go on all the time here?
>
> (There really isn't any specific pharmacological or chemical characteristic that distinguishes legal drugs from illegal ones, after all.)
>
True, but Zoloft wouldn't really do much for a rave.

>
> I don't know of any solid evidence to support this, but some people believe that a drug experience (often with marijuana, cocaine, or amphetamines (or MDMA)) triggered their panic disorder.
>
I saw precisely that in some references (with respect to MDMA). With only scattered individual accounts, who can say for certain?

> On the other hand, it's well known that people sometimes use any of a number of "non-medical drugs" to self-medicate depression and anxiety. I'm thinking of alcohol, heroin, cocaine, and amphetamine in particular, but I've heard of people using LSD, high-dose dextromethorphan (another MAOI no-no, BTW), ketamine, and even nitrous oxide (I kid you not) to the same end.

Ketamine? I've heard being in the K Hole is really no fun at all. Of course praying to the porcelain god after a particularly debauched evening isn't a barrel of laughs either.

Anyway, I can't remember all of my sources, but one fun page is www.lyceaum.org. If only some pages on ADs were this informative.

 

Re: Drugs and Drugs-Sean

Posted by Adam on October 27, 1999, at 19:05:41

In reply to Re: Drugs and Drugs, posted by Sean on October 27, 1999, at 17:25:02

Interestingly, I read a references that suggested selegiline in low doses
is also neuroprotective against MDMA. The mechanism seemed to be a removal
of oxidative stress caused by dopamine metabolites.
>
> (1) SSRI's are good with marijuana and mushrooms
> in addition to being neuroprotective with
> MDMA. They interfere with the action of MDMA
> however, and since MDMA is a known serotonergic
> toxin, people with potential problems in this
> part of their brain should stay away from e.
>
> (2) TCA's are not so hot with alcohol, speed, and
> e. With pot, TCA's result in a case of cottonmouth
> from which one may never recover...
>
> (3) Long term use of SSRI's and MAOI's can mitigate
> the effect of LSD.
>
> (4) GABA-ergic drugs (benzos/hypnotics) and any
> kind of downer (GHB, alcohol, heroin) is a
> *really* bad idea. Marijuana is usually ok.

 

Re: Drugs and Drugs

Posted by Paul on October 27, 1999, at 22:39:16

In reply to Re: Drugs and Drugs, posted by Elizabeth on October 27, 1999, at 16:22:16

> It's interesting that doctors never mention these interactions when prescribing meds to us, isn't it? I wonder why that is. The MDMA-MAOI interaction is pretty well known.

That's probably because the government discourages them from telling people about these things. This is not unprecedented. See, e.g., the federal government forbidding doctors to discuss abortions with patients in some contexts.

After all, the feds are not known for their sympathy toward "criminals." If some *junkie* is *irresponsible* enough to be taking "ecstasy," then that's their own fault - doctors shouldn't be mollycoddling all these *social deviants*. If they want to do their illegal junk, let them find out about the interactions.

Or something like that.

 

Re: Drugs and Drugs

Posted by JohnL on October 28, 1999, at 3:06:08

In reply to Drugs and Drugs, posted by Adam on October 26, 1999, at 22:40:01

I shudder at the thought of using questionable drugs with ADs. I am a veteran of all the illegal drugs out there. I loved them. And I still want them, years later. But very simply, introducing another drug just complicates the already complicated mysteries of brain chemistry. Even though I need a cocktail of 2, 3, or 4 prescrips to be in control, I know from experience I can't start or stop them all at once. One at a time. Otherwise there is no way of knowing what's going on.

I don't want a street drug to get in the way of the prescrips doing their job. Maybe a street drug would actually potentiate. Maybe it would counteract. But we really don't know. That's an unknown I keep at arm's length. It's hard enough to manage the prescrips without adding another questionable ingredient to mess with the works.

There is no question I was predisposed to depression, based on my grandparents' history. But so often I get this gut instinct that it was the chronic marijuana use for decades, the seldom trips to the moon on LSD, mescaline, shrooms, the trips to a false land of utopia on cocaine, that all contributed to screwing up something that was just waiting to be screwed up in a vulnerable way.

I do have a half glass of wine sometimes and I feel great. Wish my ADs worked as good as that half glass of wine. I've already demonstrated my heroic bravery on various street drugs. It got me nowhere except backwards. Based on personal experience and gut instinct, I strongly recommend staying away. Stick to the prescrips. That's tricky enough.


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