![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 54. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by ellen on October 23, 1999, at 18:03:47
Howdy.
I have been on wellbutrin/bupropion for about two years
boosted to 300 mg daily awhile back. It's working. Sad/
grief/pain stops at my feet, doesn't go to the bowels of
the earth anymore. Bad days dip, not destroy.But, as I said elsewhere, it makes me
stupid ... I lose about 20 IQ points. This is better
than the word retrieval loss from the other medications
(Prozac, zoloft, effexor, paxil...) because I write/edit
for a living.But dammit, I miss my smarts. *grin* Yeah, "stupid" is better than
suicidal, but... I'm worried about long-term
brain damage, frankly. I have searched and searched and
cannot find any research available on the web about the
long-term effects of wellbutrin on intelligence -- or any
other antidepressant's impact on intelligence/cognitive
ability long-term.*Sudden grin*
Hey, maybe I should write a research grant proposal...
Anybody out there know about information I've missed?
ellen
Posted by Craig on October 23, 1999, at 18:49:53
In reply to Wellbutrin for the long haul?, posted by ellen on October 23, 1999, at 18:03:47
I'm glad to hear someone ask that question. I am a writer, too. Although I haven't tried Welbutrin, I was on Prozac for a year and tried St. John's Wort for about a month prior to that. One thing that bothered me about both was that I didn't have much access to my creativity/witiness.
As you
Posted by Craig on October 23, 1999, at 18:58:22
In reply to Re: Wellbutrin for the long haul?, posted by Craig on October 23, 1999, at 18:49:53
Whoops! I've never written to the site before, didn't know the return key would submit...
>
any way, As you know, that sucks for a writer. but than I thought, most of my humor/creativity is based on cynacism, irony, and a general state of being twisted. In erradicating these things, Prozac kind of dampened the creativity. I could focus and type much better, just without any verve.I figured that Wellbutrin, with its amphetamine characteristics, would do anything but make you feel stupid. In my days of self-medication, amphetamines made me feel sharp, witty, downright brilliant. Maybe your side effects will subside with time.
I'm currently ramping up on Serzone, wondering if I'll become empty and uninteresting on that too...any experience there?
Posted by ellen on October 23, 1999, at 19:22:25
In reply to Re: Wellbutrin for the long haul?, posted by Craig on October 23, 1999, at 18:58:22
> most of my humor/creativity is based on cynacism, irony, and a general state of being twisted. In erradicating these things, Prozac kind of dampened the creativity. I could focus and type much better, just without any verve.*chuckle* hm. sorry about the loss of verve, though.
Well, it's easier for me to not be cynical. Yeesh.
Hadn't thought about that. I don't know that it keeps
me from a twisted sense of humor...thank goddess, I need
that to survive.> with its amphetamine characteristics, would do anything but make you feel stupid. In my days of self-medication, amphetamines made me feel sharp, witty, downright brilliant. Maybe your side effects will subside with time.
Never did uppers other than caffeine. Couldn't
imagine why anyone would want to. (exaggerated startle; I guess
they're calling it hyperarousal these days, PTSD). Too
hyper to be any good at anything when I wuz wired.And I don't expect the side effects to go away at this point...
been two years.> I'm currently ramping up on Serzone, wondering if I'll become empty and uninteresting on that too...any experience there?
never even *heard* of that one, sorry.
Thanks for the response.
el
Posted by Noa on October 23, 1999, at 20:35:41
In reply to Re: Wellbutrin for the long haul?, posted by ellen on October 23, 1999, at 19:22:25
Welcome, Ellen, good question, one I have wondered about. I have never had an IQ test, and started to wish I had a "baseline" to compare with on meds. I definitely have the word retrieval problems, which for a writer must be awful. It is annoying for me, too. I will be in the middle of a meeting and suddenly forget a word. YIKES. And like you said above, it affects simple words as well as more sophisticated ones. Don't know about other cognitive impairments, but have sometimes noticed that I can be kind of concrete and miss the point of a joke, too. But I suspect I have always had that problem.
Posted by Bob on October 23, 1999, at 21:17:56
In reply to Re: Wellbutrin for the long haul?, posted by Noa on October 23, 1999, at 20:35:41
[blush] Forgetting names is my specialty ... damn, but it happened the other day in class trying to call on this really cute woman ... [/blush]
aCk! 8^P
Bob
Posted by JohnL on October 24, 1999, at 4:23:38
In reply to Wellbutrin for the long haul?, posted by ellen on October 23, 1999, at 18:03:47
Hi Ellen. Both St James and Elizabeth are a wealth of information. Hopefully they'll show up with some suggestions on further research for this topic. They've both given me outstanding tips on research.
Meanwhile, here's my hypothesis on the situation. Bear in mind it's just a guesstimate based on things I've read over time concerning Wellbutrin.
I've read that Wellbutrin early on has dopamine enhancing characteristics, but with continued use actually decreases dopamine synthesis. I have heard the complaint several times of Welbutrin making one feel stupid. But the complaints always came later in treatment. Not early. Thus my guess it is related to the mention of decreased dopamine synthesis over time. Decreased dopamine in senior citizens is hypothesized as a cause of mental deterioration.
If this guess is correct then a dopamine enhancing drug would reverse the symptom. The safest one that comes to my mind right away is Selegiline. It is used primarily for Parkinson's disease, but also as monotherapy or as an adjunct for depression. Could help with depression and boost mental function simultaneously. It is often used in senior citizens for that very purpose. And it's side effects are very mild. I believe it would be safe with Wellbutrin, much safer than with an SSRI, and only small doses would be needed anyway. Probably in the 5mg to 15mg per day range.
There are herbs that might help too. Gingko Biloba, Ginseng, Huperzine come to mind. I wouldn't go out and try them all at once. If you wanted to try herbs, choose one (gingko would be my first choice) and give it a good 6 weeks. Anyway, just some thoughts to ponder.
Posted by dj on October 24, 1999, at 9:52:37
In reply to Wellbutrin for the long haul?, posted by ellen on October 23, 1999, at 18:03:47
The latter is the name of a new book on suicide by Dr. Kay Redfield Jamison, an internationally recognized authority on depressive illnesses and their treatment as well as someone who suffers from bi-polar.
I just scanned her book last night, at a bookstore. She talks a bit about the effects of ADs & the chemistry involved. I think the main AD she discusses is lithium which she seems to hold in high regard. However I am not sure if it is only a treatment for bi-polar or whether it's applicable to straight up depression.
Perhaps Elizabeth or someone who has some experience with & knowledge of bio-chemistry can make some comments of it's application, efficiacy and whether it might be applicable in this sort of situation.
BTW, I am curious when you realized that your IQ seemed to have dropped & how you may have come to that concusion. I have recently started sampling Wellbutrin & though it has less other side effects than the SSRIs I've tried I still feel a bit off on it as well & am interested in getting my intellect back in gear.
I posted a question to Brandon in a thread above on his experience of Dilantin which seems to help with his concentration & focus, about his experience of that & Selegiline. You might want to check out his repsonse to that when it comes.
Welcome to the babbelogue..!
> I have been on wellbutrin/bupropion..
> But, as I said elsewhere, it makes me
> stupid ... I lose about 20 IQ points.
"stupid" is better than suicidal, but... I'm worried >about long-term brain damage,
Posted by Taryn on October 24, 1999, at 19:03:37
In reply to Re: Wellbutrin for the long haul?, posted by JohnL on October 24, 1999, at 4:23:38
Oh great, just when I thought I had it all figured out. Prozac affected my memory, I had no feelings and couldn't even cry. Paxil....well I have almost no recollection of anything that happened in the 2 years I took it except that I made a million mistakes at work! I have been taking Zoloft for a few years now and found the "stupidness" to be related to my dose. I can only take 100 mg daily or I can tell a difference right away. I have been taking Wellbutrin along with the Zoloft for the last few months to help with fatigue and lack of motivation. Now I'll be worrying about getting "stupid" again! (I've already discovered that Wellbutrin alone doesn't help my depression, but Zoloft was starting to loose effectiveness until I added Wellbutrin. There's no way I can do my job if this begins to affect my brain again.)
> I've read that Wellbutrin early on has dopamine enhancing characteristics, but with continued use actually decreases dopamine synthesis. I have heard the complaint several times of Welbutrin making one feel stupid. But the complaints always came later in treatment. Not early. Thus my guess it is related to the mention of decreased dopamine synthesis over time. Decreased dopamine in senior citizens is hypothesized as a cause of mental deterioration.
>
> If this guess is correct then a dopamine enhancing drug would reverse the symptom. The safest one that comes to my mind right away is Selegiline. It is used primarily for Parkinson's disease, but also as monotherapy or as an adjunct for depression. Could help with depression and boost mental function simultaneously. It is often used in senior citizens for that very purpose. And it's side effects are very mild. I believe it would be safe with Wellbutrin, much safer than with an SSRI, and only small doses would be needed anyway. Probably in the 5mg to 15mg per day range.
>
> There are herbs that might help too. Gingko Biloba, Ginseng, Huperzine come to mind. I wouldn't go out and try them all at once. If you wanted to try herbs, choose one (gingko would be my first choice) and give it a good 6 weeks. Anyway, just some thoughts to ponder.PS: I tried Gingko and thought it made matters worse unless it was my imagination. I know it didn't help though.
Posted by ellen on October 24, 1999, at 19:31:50
In reply to Re: Wellbutrin for the long haul?, posted by Taryn on October 24, 1999, at 19:03:37
> Oh great, just when I thought I had it all figured out.
Hey, don't let my experience worry you.
Aware, maybe, but not fearful--we all react differently
or we wouldn't require different meds.> > I've read that Wellbutrin early on has dopamine enhancing characteristics, but with continued use actually decreases dopamine synthesis. I have heard the complaint several times of Welbutrin making one feel stupid. But the complaints always came later in treatment. Not early. Thus my guess it is related to the mention of decreased dopamine synthesis over time. Decreased dopamine in senior citizens is hypothesized as a cause of mental deterioration.
Whooof. Eeek. Precisely what I was worried about.
What happens to dopamine production when you go back off it?
> > If this guess is correct then a dopamine enhancing drug would reverse the symptom. The safest one that comes to my mind right away is Selegiline. It is used primarily for Parkinson's disease, but also as monotherapy or as an adjunct for depression. Could help with depression and boost mental function simultaneously. It is often used in senior citizens for that very purpose. And it's side effects are very mild. I believe it would be safe with Wellbutrin, much safer than with an SSRI, and only small doses would be needed anyway. Probably in the 5mg to 15mg per day range.urgh. Thanks for the info... but ...
I don't like the idea of taking a medication to fix another
medication's side effects. I'm not real thrilled
about taking any medication in the first place.
(yes, I know it's necessary and no, I won't drop them
right now... )> > There are herbs that might help too. Gingko Biloba, Ginseng, Huperzine come to mind. I wouldn't go out and try them all at once. If you wanted to try herbs, choose one (gingko would be my first choice) and give it a good 6 weeks. Anyway, just some thoughts to ponder.
>
> PS: I tried Gingko and thought it made matters worse unless it was my imagination. I know it didn't help though.Ginseng does seem to help. What's a Huperzine?
Thanks to all for the welcomes and info...
el
Posted by allison on October 25, 1999, at 18:03:15
In reply to Re: Wellbutrin for the long haul?, posted by ellen on October 24, 1999, at 19:31:50
Gee, I was lumping stupid in with fat and ugly. So now I can get stupid on Wellbutrin, too? Great. Just great.
Lately, I have noticed an increased loss for words (even simple ones), especially when speaking before groups, but I chalked it up to shyness and the slow-motion-ness I sometimes feel with this depression.
So maybe if I ever get off this Wellbutrin I'll be less stupid? Or maybe I'm doubly stupid to think I'll ever be off these damnable drugs.
P.S.: Lithium frequently is used just for depression. I was on it for six months; it was supposed to help the efficacy of the Remeron. I think it helped, but I gained weight, and had constant, daily diarrhea that didn't stop even when the delivery was changed. I will never take it again.
Posted by Taryn on October 26, 1999, at 8:27:15
In reply to double stupid, posted by allison on October 25, 1999, at 18:03:15
> Gee, I was lumping stupid in with fat and ugly. So now I can get stupid on Wellbutrin, too? Great. Just great.
>
> Lately, I have noticed an increased loss for words (even simple ones), especially when speaking before groups, but I chalked it up to shyness and the slow-motion-ness I sometimes feel with this depression.
>
> So maybe if I ever get off this Wellbutrin I'll be less stupid? Or maybe I'm doubly stupid to think I'll ever be off these damnable drugs.
>
> P.S.: Lithium frequently is used just for depression. I was on it for six months; it was supposed to help the efficacy of the Remeron. I think it helped, but I gained weight, and had constant, daily diarrhea that didn't stop even when the delivery was changed. I will never take it again.I also take Ritalin along with Zoloft & Wellbutrin. It is supposed to help my low energy, (which it does to a slight degree; I can still take a nap whenever I get a chance) but it also seems to enable me to think more clearly. Without it I'm not sure how I'd manage to do my job.
Taryn
Posted by Leighwit on April 25, 2002, at 10:45:52
In reply to Re: Wellbutrin for the long haul?, posted by JohnL on October 24, 1999, at 4:23:38
The thread quoted from below responds to a person's concerns about Wellbutrin's affect on IQ. In the original post, the writer said she found this more tolerable than the loss of word retrieval and short-term memory from the SSRIs, but she was tired of "feeling stupid" and further, she wondered if it was reversible.
I have the same concerns. I think the net impact of Wellbutrin is better for me than the SSRIs were in terms of "brain fog" side effects, but that doesn't mean that I don't want my "own" brain back! I've been taking WB for several years now and primarily because of the irritability, I'm motivated to stop relying on WB for mediocre results.
I've tried all of the SSRIs, Serzone, Norpramine/Desiprimine, Reboxetine and Effexor. WB has, in fact, worked the best ~ it's the only thing that gets me off the couch and functioning day-to-day, but feeling stupid and angry all of the time is wearing me out physically and emotionally as well as mentally, over the long term.
Two questions:
1) Has anyone here taken WB for an extended period of time and found that their overall mental prowess fully returns (or not) when they stop using WB?
2) Has anyone taken Selegiline (whatever that is) with WB as suggested here (see post below)?
Thanks for any feedback on this.
>
> Meanwhile, here's my hypothesis on the situation. Bear in mind it's just a guesstimate based on things I've read over time concerning Wellbutrin.
>
> I've read that Wellbutrin early on has dopamine enhancing characteristics, but with continued use actually decreases dopamine synthesis. I have heard the complaint several times of Welbutrin making one feel stupid. But the complaints always came later in treatment. Not early. Thus my guess it is related to the mention of decreased dopamine synthesis over time. Decreased dopamine in senior citizens is hypothesized as a cause of mental deterioration.
>
> If this guess is correct then a dopamine enhancing drug would reverse the symptom. The safest one that comes to my mind right away is Selegiline. It is used primarily for Parkinson's disease, but also as monotherapy or as an adjunct for depression. Could help with depression and boost mental function simultaneously. It is often used in senior citizens for that very purpose. And it's side effects are very mild. I believe it would be safe with Wellbutrin, much safer than with an SSRI, and only small doses would be needed anyway. Probably in the 5mg to 15mg per day range.
>
Posted by Ponder on April 26, 2002, at 11:43:53
In reply to Wellbutrin for the long haul?, posted by ellen on October 23, 1999, at 18:03:47
Couldn't resist joining this thread. I, too, am a professional writer with concerns about intellectual functioning and word-find abilities.
I have been on Wellbutrin for decades (literally). It never occurred to me that WB might have cognitive side-effects. What I find frustrating is the difficulty of ascribing such effects. After all, my bipolar depression makes me dumb as a stump. Some people believe that ECT leaves you with some permanent impairment (maybe). Then there are the drugs.
I hate the thought of tampering with a combination of treatments that seem to be working at the time, but this discussion on WB is causing me to reconsider. My other treatments (Lamictal and VNS) are activating enough that DCing the WB may not be too bad an idea.
Does anyone else wonder about drug side-effects vs. depression as the cause of cognitive difficulties? I mean, not just during the depression, but a kind of ongoing alteration in brain function from the illness?
Posted by johnny1 on April 28, 2002, at 14:12:46
In reply to Re: Wellbutrin for the long haul? » JohnL, posted by Leighwit on April 25, 2002, at 10:45:52
I used paxil,seretonin,albuterol,alleville I can swear the wellbuterol alone took me out of the fog.
I sill cant control my anxiety, i cant sleep wheni want to,only when the body shuts down.
i tried effexor made me sick to my stomach and i had chills and shaking, celexa is ok but i am chemical sensitive so i have to be careful
Posted by dove on April 29, 2002, at 13:02:12
In reply to Stupid from drugs or from depression?, posted by Ponder on April 26, 2002, at 11:43:53
>
> Does anyone else wonder about drug side-effects vs. depression as the cause of cognitive difficulties? I mean, not just during the depression, but a kind of ongoing alteration in brain function from the illness?
>
>YES!!! I wonder about the med's cognitive effects all the time. I used to write in great quantity, though the quality would suffer due to what qualities of depression and aggravation I was having at the time. The quantity has definitely suffered, as has the everyday quota of time spent writing.
When I first started on meds, each one seemed to have its very own unique temperament, which played out in many comedic and not-so-comedic ways. Initially, Amitriptyline rendered me apathetic and dulled to the blinds. Verapamil (Calcium Channel Blocker) gave me energy, determination, and wonderful clarity of mind (as well as the most significant upward change in my depression thus far). I was able to resume many activities I loved including writing, playing piano, exercising, and extensive research in various areas of interest. Verapamil did not like my heart all that well, and I was eventually taken off and Amitriptyline was substituted.
Prozac enabled me to do many things such as housework, dishes, laundry, but absolutely nothing creative; I was completely muted and so very apathetic towards everything and anything I normally found enjoyable. Adderall enhanced concentration, I could actually finish something I started, which had never happened before, but it also deadened my creative energies and my ability to find inspiration and 'joie de vivre'.
Neurontin initially gave me some mood stability w/o the utterly dulling effects of other mood-stabilizers such as Tegretol, I was able to function and be somewhat imaginative while remaining less volatile and suicidal.
WB caused me great agitation, frustration, anger, complete lack of creativity; however, I was only on Wellbutrin for a couple of months. I found its effects quite unpleasant and detrimental to my health, increasing my depression and my hopelessness in a very aggressive and angry manner.
Klonopin, dulls but stabilizes (I think?), haven't found it to cause a deepening of my depression, and it has given me the ability to leave the house and ride in cars (when I'm not the driver) with crazy insane drivers and *not* throw myself out the door.
Serzone is still a complete unknown for me. It does sedate--which helps with my sleeping difficulties, it does create a certain amount of complacency and a feeling of contentment in the smaller things of life. However, because I've never taken this med alone, I only know (sort of know) what it feels like in combination with five (5) other psychoactive meds.
Current combo: Amitriptyline (Elavil), Adderall, fluoxetine (Prozac), Nefazodone (Serzone), clonazepam (Klonopin), and gabapentin (Neurontin).
This combo is definitely cognitively dulling! I can and do cut my Ami to receive significant cognitive improvements, will do the same with Serzone by cutting 100MGs in my 400MGS daily regiment. Klonopin can be cut down to 0.5MG with some temporary improvements, otherwise, anxiety creeps up along with mood lability. Neurontin has been my main med that I play with, given permission by my p-doc even. I have experimented with daily amounts ranging from 2,400MGS to 900MGS, trying to find a happy median. So far, still working on it.
I am also very interested in whether or not many of these loss-of-short-term memory, word-finding difficulties, and other negative cognitive side-effects can be countered and/or whether they are temporary or permanent. As the answers would severely affect my entire med approach and are quite critical in the long run!
Hope others have some thoughts to add!
dove
Posted by katekite on April 29, 2002, at 14:20:09
In reply to Re: Stupid from drugs or from depression? » Ponder, posted by dove on April 29, 2002, at 13:02:12
I'm glad you posted on all your personal drug experiences. I am always worried about cognitive effects too, at least in the last year when things seem to have had more negative cognitive effects than before. Today I'm hitting withdrawal from klonopin and cut down my dose of ritalin in order to be able to sleep, and as a result can barely finish a thought. Went swimming and thought I would drown of incoordination.
Can you post more on your experience with verapamil? What else were you on while taking it? How long did it take to have a beneficial effect? Since I have had some similar side effects to you as other drugs you've been on, I wonder how it would affect me.... I need to look into it.
kate
Posted by k9lover on April 30, 2002, at 11:44:03
In reply to Re: Stupid from drugs or from depression? » dove, posted by katekite on April 29, 2002, at 14:20:09
I too have been worried about cognitive function. I seem to forget things easily - or just not retain things in the first place - like I'm stoned or something. (On paxil, buspar, and zyprexa)
Posted by dove on April 30, 2002, at 12:43:16
In reply to Re: Stupid from drugs or from depression? » dove, posted by katekite on April 29, 2002, at 14:20:09
>
> Can you post more on your experience with verapamil? What else were you on while taking it? How long did it take to have a beneficial effect? Since I have had some similar side effects to you as other drugs you've been on, I wonder how it would affect me.... I need to look into it.
>
>Verapamil was initially prescribed for my migraines with blackout/fainting aura. It was the first med that ever had a positive effect on my mind. Previously, I had been on Tegretol with disastrous effects (of which I've described all over this board throughout the last 3 or so years), and finally just said "no" and suffered from the migraines and concussions from the fainting until Verapamil entered my life.
At the time, I was not receiving any help with my depression or other emotional 'issues'. I took Verapamil alone and my migraines disappeared with great speed and within two weeks I felt a change take over my whole mind. It was incredible, I called my Internal-Med Doc, raving and ranting about this miracle and he insisted it was merely due to the loss of the migraines, but I knew better. I started researching the med because I didn't believe what my doc had said, I had suffered from depression since around the age of 7.
I found a few, very small studies and references to the utilization of Verapamil in bipolar patients with some beneficial efficiency; and found many references stating its lack of efficiency and limited application within the psycho-pharmaceutical arena of mental illness. Which sort of shocked me, but didn't completely crash all my theories and beliefs that it could be used in certain people with great results.
I have stated this many times in the past, and will do so again, nothing--absolutely nothing--has ever come close to the amazing transformation I had with Verapamil. My goal in my med-treatment is to reach that state of mental health once again. However, I'm still searching, and have stated that I would like to give it another go at some point if none of these complicated med cocktails pan-out.
I would encourage you to look into it, especially if you suffer from depression accompanied by annoyance, or aggravation. These were the key factors that subsided when I took it. And it was quick to act after reaching the goal dosage. It is not considered by any of my p-docs as a "useful" psycho-active med, but it sure was for me.
Good Luck!
dove
Posted by terra miller on April 30, 2002, at 12:51:57
In reply to Re: Wellbutrin for the long haul? » JohnL, posted by Leighwit on April 25, 2002, at 10:45:52
i am taking wellbutrin ir alone, since i've found SSRI's to numb too much for me to make progress in therapy. it is agitating and has always been, but i deal with it and don't use caffeine.
i've felt more that the process of dissociating for me is what contributes to the fogging out.
anybody else wonder if it's symptoms of dissociation instead of longterm wellbutrin use that's the contributing factor for them?
interested to hear your thoughts.
~terra
Posted by katekite on April 30, 2002, at 13:54:42
In reply to Re: Stupid from drugs or from depression? » katekite, posted by dove on April 30, 2002, at 12:43:16
Interesting. yes annoyance/irritation is most of my problems, or at least its what gets in the way of me getting a nice hug from my hubby. ie -- 'geez why can't he put away his socks? why would i want a hug. why can't he quit chewing so loud? no more hugs from him, hah.' something like that. LOL.
I was especially curious about verapamil because my dad is on it for blood pressure and he seemed more 'sweet' than I remembered him when he visited recently. I had independently wondered if verapamil had something to do with it.
Have you ever taken your blood pressure in early am, waking up? I did that the other day and was surprised its high then. Which is incidentally when I feel the grumpiest. But there's the chicken/egg thing there, hard to know.
kate
Posted by Leighwit on April 30, 2002, at 16:27:45
In reply to Re: Stupid from drugs or from depression? » katekite, posted by dove on April 30, 2002, at 12:43:16
>I took Verapamil alone and my migraines disappeared with great speed and within two weeks I felt a change take over my whole mind. It was incredible, I called my Internal-Med Doc, raving and ranting about this miracle and he insisted it was merely due to the loss of the migraines, but I knew better. I started researching the med because I didn't believe what my doc had said, I had suffered from depression since around the age of 7.
>
> I found a few, very small studies and references to the utilization of Verapamil in bipolar patients with some beneficial efficiency; and found many references stating its lack of efficiency and limited application within the psycho-pharmaceutical arena of mental illness. Which sort of shocked me, but didn't completely crash all my theories and beliefs that it could be used in certain people with great results.
>
> I have stated this many times in the past, and will do so again, nothing--absolutely nothing--has ever come close to the amazing transformation I had with Verapamil. My goal in my med-treatment is to reach that state of mental health once again. However, I'm still searching, and have stated that I would like to give it another go at some point if none of these complicated med cocktails pan-out.
>
> I would encourage you to look into it, especially if you suffer from depression accompanied by annoyance, or aggravation. These were the key factors that subsided when I took it. And it was quick to act after reaching the goal dosage. It is not considered by any of my p-docs as a "useful" psycho-active med, but it sure was for me.
>
> Good Luck!
>
> dove
Dove ~I am so impressed that you are able to differentiate the side effects and define the characteristics of so many medications with such specificity ~ and remember them!
I can't remember one from another, and when I was using more than one AD (three was the max I mixed in a cocktail approach) I had a very hard time distinguishing the attritubes of one vs. another nor one without the other.
I printed this last post of yours so I won't forget to take it with me to the Pdoc. Since I most definitely experience irritability with my depression, your experience with Verapamil is very interesting to me. You mention that your goal is to experience the improvement you initially felt with Verapamil again. Did it not last very long?
Posted by Nuthatch on May 1, 2002, at 0:08:46
In reply to Re: Stupid from drugs or from depression?, posted by Leighwit on April 30, 2002, at 16:27:45
I am really interested generally in this drugs vs. depression debate, and so pleased to see all the posts.
Last year I was on Celexa for depression but I remember around the same time having great difficulty in concentrating and slow thinking - I don't know if this was the depression or the drugs.
I didn't experience any physical (non-mental) sideffects.
I'm now depressed again and my doctor has suggested effexor xr, but I've researched it and it seems to have more sideffects than celexa. Any thoughts or advice?
I sometimes wonder if it's better to try and get by with exercise, although getting out of bed in the morning is a struggle...
Posted by dove on May 1, 2002, at 14:04:42
In reply to Re: Stupid from drugs or from depression?, posted by Leighwit on April 30, 2002, at 16:27:45
Regarding keeping track of all the different meds and their effects on my life, I didn't start out that way. At one point, after many different meds and multiple med-combinations, I wanted to keep track of what was doing what.
I first went back through the P-Babble archives and located different milestones and my state of mind at the time, matched those posts up with my calendar, and tried to get a clear picture of the past. Then, I committed myself to keeping track of med increases/decreases, additions/subtractions, and my mental state of being on a daily basis via a short note on my calendar. I've slipped into once a week notes when I've been doing well and when I'm doing quite terribly. I keep it short and simple--otherwise I wouldn't do it at all. For example: Monday, May 1st: in the little square box I'll write "a.m. good; p.m. bad" followed by a down arrow indicating that the "p.m. bad" are my depressive symptoms.
I had to end my Verapamil experience due to the manner in which it was affecting my heart rate and rhythm in odd ways. However, I was told that these effects wouldn't prevent from me from trying it again sometime in the future. And no, its positive effect on my depression and aggression never decreased!
dove
Posted by Leighwit on May 1, 2002, at 16:27:20
In reply to Re: Stupid from drugs or from depression? » Leighwit, posted by dove on May 1, 2002, at 14:04:42
I have resisted keeping track (on paper) of my experiences with one vs. another AD for various reasons. I'm not always religious in keeping my blood sugar log up-to-date and I suppose I consider that a more pressing area of non-performance (ha, ha).
That said, I can see in reading Dove's posts that there are significant advantages in keeping track of how one is feeling while taking these drugs ~ particularly when ramping up or when the side effects become disruptive or when you know the efficacy of the drug isn't where it needs to be. In other words, unless one is feeling great it's not a bad idea to be logging (I hate the word journaling so I'm avoiding it at all costs)or recording some basic data.
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