Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 13442

Shown: posts 1 to 21 of 21. This is the beginning of the thread.

 

Unconventional reaction to drugs.Opposite to norm

Posted by Diane on October 19, 1999, at 15:28:26

If you can put aside your initial reaction, and keep your mind open, I'd like some input/
help on a problem that frustrates me.
Question: Can some body please tell me why methadone(wait!,don't tune me out yet!)
WAKES me up, alleviates my depression (like having a type A mind in a type B body),
where as stimulants make me tired, extremely depressed, irritable, unfocused and
hinders my breathing.

a little back ground:
I have been "depressed" sense age 11, or at least that's when suddenly:
Had no interest in school, friends, play etc. Emotions started to flatline.
Could not concentrate, retain or focus.
I became a lonely loner, etc. etc. on down the line.
I have always felt doubt, fear, insecure, worthless, hopeless, incapable, gutless
unmotivated. Always lacked drive, ambition, assertiveness.
Lacked what ever IT is to succeed and be normal. Lots of guilt. Lots of shame.
I have always felt undeserving, ashamed of myself. Inferior to all others. Helpless.
NO MANIA HERE. Except for recently acquired anger. Strictly unipolar.Chronic

I have always been this way, UNTIL METHADONE! Then boom! I was ALIVE.
I had ambition! I had the "I can do it attitude"
For the first time in my life I wasn't depressed and all the above.
For the first time in my life I got a job. A career. I became a union floor covering
installer. Local 1235 outta San Francisco. One of 2 women in the trade! I was
finally rolling at age 31!
And nobody ever knew I was on Methadone.
Methadone is a slow release, long acting (26hr) drug. There is no "rush", as with
heroin. In my experience it's a simple, uncomplicated, risk free drug.
So it's addictive, so what? I'd rather be addicted and enabled than depressed and
disabled. I mean we are never really talking "Cure" when it comes to depression but a
easing of symptoms, right? STOP! Sorry, I got detoured.

Then unfortunately I had to give up methadone/career. I now live a 100 mile drive
from the nearest clinic. I live in Sweet Home, OR. and I am stuck here. I don't have a
car and there are no busses. *I do have a computer tho and I do have a GP.

SO I am searching for alternatives. Alternatives similar to methadone or alternative
ways to acquire methadone outside of the clinic setting, exceptions to the rules etc.
(fat chance, I know but I figured I might as well ask sense I'm going this far out on a
limb, risking being ostracized :o)). And I am not talking Heroin abuse here. I've been
clean sense 1985. Been off methadone sense 1992.
Methadone is the only thing that has worked for my depression. Just my luck, the
one thing that works bang on...I can't get simply thru normal channels.

So I am back to "all the above" depression.
More ??: Is there a legal alternative?, anything similar? (Buprenorphine is for
abuse only as well) Does anybody have ANY knowledge on the subject?
Or know where/whom I could ask?
Is there anything on the horizon? Research being done?
Substance P? Mu-1? BL-2401? Endorphins? Enkephalin? Dynorphin?

"Mu-receptors are found mainly in the brainstem and the medial thalamus. They have
two sub-types: mu-1 and mu-2. Stimulation of the mu-1 receptors is primarily
responsible for an extraordinary sense of euphoria, serenity and analgesia.
Unfortunately, there is still a lack of clinically available opioids specific to the mu-1
receptors. Their advent will be an tremendous boon to mental and physical health."
That came from http://www.heroin.org/opiates.html
BUT how long ago that was written I don't know.

A drug is a drug is a drug as far as I'm concerned. What's good for you might be bad
for me......as long as you are not hurting any one else...live your life.
Utilitarianism. I'd like to live before I die.

Thank you and excuse the length. It won't happen again, I hope :o)
Diane

 

Re: Unconventional reaction to drugs.Opposite to norm

Posted by katie on October 19, 1999, at 16:00:18

In reply to Unconventional reaction to drugs.Opposite to norm, posted by Diane on October 19, 1999, at 15:28:26


********You obviously have more knowledge about alternate drugs than I do. But, a suggestion? Try to find info via internet, online bookstores,etc.? It seems to me that you will have to do some serios "digging".**********


> > So I am back to "all the above" depression.
> More ??: Is there a legal alternative?, anything similar? (Buprenorphine is for
> abuse only as well) Does anybody have ANY knowledge on the subject?
> Or know where/whom I could ask?
> Is there anything on the horizon? Research being done?
> Substance P? Mu-1? BL-2401? Endorphins? Enkephalin? Dynorphin?
>
> "Mu-receptors are found mainly in the brainstem and the medial thalamus. They have
> two sub-types: mu-1 and mu-2. Stimulation of the mu-1 receptors is primarily
> responsible for an extraordinary sense of euphoria, serenity and analgesia.
> Unfortunately, there is still a lack of clinically available opioids specific to the mu-1
> receptors. Their advent will be an tremendous boon to mental and physical health."
> That came from http://www.heroin.org/opiates.html
> BUT how long ago that was written I don't know.
>
> A drug is a drug is a drug as far as I'm concerned. What's good for you might be bad
> for me......as long as you are not hurting any one else...live your life.
> Utilitarianism. I'd like to live before I die.
>
> Thank you and excuse the length. It won't happen again, I hope :o)
> Diane
>

 

Where's Wayne R. when you need him ... ;^)

Posted by Bob on October 19, 1999, at 16:51:57

In reply to Re: Unconventional reaction to drugs.Opposite to norm, posted by katie on October 19, 1999, at 16:00:18

I hear the word "opiate" and I immediately think "Naltrexone". How about it, those out there trying it?

Cheerleading for our Naltrexone "white rats" (and I mean that as a term of endearment!)
Bob

 

Re: Unconventional reaction to drugs.Opposite to norm

Posted by andrewb on October 19, 1999, at 16:57:06

In reply to Unconventional reaction to drugs.Opposite to norm, posted by Diane on October 19, 1999, at 15:28:26

You have an interesting story! Buprenorphine has been used to treat depression and is legally available without prescription from overseas.
>

 

Re: Unconventional reaction to drugs.Opposite to norm

Posted by JohnL on October 19, 1999, at 17:10:29

In reply to Re: Unconventional reaction to drugs.Opposite to norm, posted by andrewb on October 19, 1999, at 16:57:06

Dittos on Bob's comment on Naltrexone. The doc who first started using Naltrexone to augment SSRIs felt the opiate system was a major player in depression. The problem was avoiding an addiction. Naltrexone is the only opiate drug without abuse potential. By itself it does nothing to get you high or make you feel good. But mixed with an SSRI it has been a miracle to some treatment resistant folks. So logically one would guess that if there was a good response to a previous opiate drug, perhaps there would be with naltrexone too. Maybe?? Wish it was doing more for me. But like Bob, when I hear the word opiate, I immediately think of Naltrexone.

 

Re: Unconventional reaction to drugs.Opposite to norm

Posted by Adam on October 19, 1999, at 17:57:15

In reply to Re: Unconventional reaction to drugs.Opposite to norm, posted by JohnL on October 19, 1999, at 17:10:29

Umm, this may be a silly suggestion, but aren't benzodiazapines very similar to opiates? Would a
combo of a good AD plus maybe Klonapin be an alternative? Again there are addiction issues with
benzos, but from what I understand, benzo abuse is a rare. If Diane can beat heroin addiction (about
the worst there is, from what I understand), I'm sure she could handle having some Klonapin lying
around.

Not knowing anything really about methadone except that it helps one make the transition from heroin
abuse to abstainance, is it impossible to be in methadone indefinitely? Are there no legal ways to
procure this drug if it makes you euthymic and productive? Is methadone just a milder narcotic?

> Dittos on Bob's comment on Naltrexone. The doc who first started using Naltrexone to augment SSRIs felt the opiate system was a major player in depression. The problem was avoiding an addiction. Naltrexone is the only opiate drug without abuse potential. By itself it does nothing to get you high or make you feel good. But mixed with an SSRI it has been a miracle to some treatment resistant folks. So logically one would guess that if there was a good response to a previous opiate drug, perhaps there would be with naltrexone too. Maybe?? Wish it was doing more for me. But like Bob, when I hear the word opiate, I immediately think of Naltrexone.

 

Re: Unconventional reaction to drugs.Opposite to norm

Posted by Elizabeth on October 19, 1999, at 20:10:19

In reply to Re: Unconventional reaction to drugs.Opposite to norm, posted by Adam on October 19, 1999, at 17:57:15

(The below contains my understanding of the law on methadone maintenance. If anyone knows otherwise I'd like to know.)

>Umm, this may be a silly suggestion, but aren't benzodiazapines very similar to opiates?

No. They're not very good antidepressants, for one thing. For another the mechanism of action is just completely different.

Benzodiazepines are basically sedatives, and this is the same mechanism responsible for their antianxiety effects. They potentiate the inhibitory neurotransmitter GABA.

Methadone & co. work on a completely different system, the opioid system. The relevant receptor is the subtype known as mu (as in the Greek letter).

Don't equate naltrexone with what are normally considered opiates. Naltrexone is an opioid *antagonist* - in other words, it blocks opioid receptors (most prominently the mu receptor, but also kappa and delta). Because of all the hype, I asked Dr. Bodkin about it, and his experience using it in depressed patients is that it tends to be dysphoric, if it has any effect on mood.

A small number of case reports have suggested it has an augmenting effect on SSRIs in some people. Whether this is a specific effect, and if so how often it happens, is not known.

>Again there are addiction issues with
>benzos, but from what I understand, benzo abuse is a rare.

I think careful monitoring can minimize the risk of abuse, but Diane does not seem to feel that this is a problem for her. (Not to put words in your mouth, Diane; that's just how I read it. See below.)

>If Diane can beat heroin addiction (about
> the worst there is, from what I understand), I'm sure she could handle having some Klonapin lying
> around.

I'm a little confused. I didn't think she said anywhere that she'd been addicted to heroin. Also there's a big difference between being addicted to a drug and simply experiencing withdrawal from chronic use.

> Not knowing anything really about methadone except that it helps one make the transition from heroin
> abuse to abstainance, is it impossible to be in methadone indefinitely? Are there no legal ways to
> procure this drug if it makes you euthymic and productive? Is methadone just a milder narcotic?

Methadone is interesting. It's not much "milder" than morphine or heroin, as such, but it doesn't produce so much euphoria, for the most part.

The legal aspects of treating opioid addiction with opioid agonists are also peculiar. It's only legal if it's done through special clinics dedicated to the purpose of treating heroin addiction. Methadone can't be prescribed for this purpose on an outpatient basis - addicts have to go to the clinic to get their dose. It's given orally, usually dissolved in orange juice (this is to prevent them from tonguing it). Altogether dehumanizing, if you ask me (not that anyone ever has).

However: if pain is what is being treated, methadone has the same status as any other CII drug. You can get a month's supply, no refills, with a written prescription. (Details may vary from state to state.) Ditto for off-label uses, such as depression or dysthymia.

So all you have to do is convince a doctor to do it. Oh, wait....

 

Re: Unconventional reaction to drugs.Opposite to norm

Posted by Adam on October 19, 1999, at 21:57:13

In reply to Re: Unconventional reaction to drugs.Opposite to norm, posted by Elizabeth on October 19, 1999, at 20:10:19

Shoot. I knew some of that at one point, so why do I have it in my head that there's some association btw. opiates and benzodiazepines? I must have read something someplace...
Sophomore alert. Oh well, my bad. Anyway, I've actually seen a reference by the good Dr. Bodkin where he used buprenorphine in an attempt to treat refractory depression. (I read
up on the guy before I got into his selegiline study). I guess some people responded very well, others didn't. At any rate, it seems there are other indications for buprenorphine
than, if I understand Diane's post, helping to treat drug abuse. Is that another completely dead end?

As for my assumptions about addiction: True, it is nowhere stated. I assumed that Diane was taking methadone, as many do, to help break heroin addiction/dependance. It seems a
bit strange to treat an unaddicted person with what Diane says is an addictive substance (since it's clear Diane was not treated with methadone to relieve the symptoms of a depression).
I also don't understand completely the difference between addiction and experiencing withdrawl from chronic use. But, in truth, I've never completely understood the term "addiction",
as there are so many varieties ("psychological" vs. "physical", whatever that means, etc.). But, in truth, I was imagining something sort of "Trainspotting"-esque where a "chemical
dependancy", such that quitting would be very painful without some chemical help, existed. Diane, if I'm out of line here, please let me know. I meant no disrespect in any case. I
personally don't have anything but sympathy for those who self-medicate. The idea that so many are punished in this society for trying to dull the pain of life makes me quite angry,
sometimes. I am, myself, essentially dependant on drugs to function, and coming to grips with that has not always been easy, I think in large part because such dependancies are seen
by society as a weakness. Am I an addict? I wonder.

I really hope you find something, Diane. I think you are putting your computer to extremely good use. There are a lot of very knowledgeable people here who can help you get some
good ideas. Perhaps you can also get some pointers to a good pdoc in your area who's not afraid to experiment a little. Best of luck.

Adam


> (The below contains my understanding of the law on methadone maintenance. If anyone knows otherwise I'd like to know.)
>
> >Umm, this may be a silly suggestion, but aren't benzodiazapines very similar to opiates?
>
> No. They're not very good antidepressants, for one thing. For another the mechanism of action is just completely different.
>
> Benzodiazepines are basically sedatives, and this is the same mechanism responsible for their antianxiety effects. They potentiate the inhibitory neurotransmitter GABA.
>
> Methadone & co. work on a completely different system, the opioid system. The relevant receptor is the subtype known as mu (as in the Greek letter).
>
> Don't equate naltrexone with what are normally considered opiates. Naltrexone is an opioid *antagonist* - in other words, it blocks opioid receptors (most prominently the mu receptor, but also kappa and delta). Because of all the hype, I asked Dr. Bodkin about it, and his experience using it in depressed patients is that it tends to be dysphoric, if it has any effect on mood.
>
> A small number of case reports have suggested it has an augmenting effect on SSRIs in some people. Whether this is a specific effect, and if so how often it happens, is not known.
>
> >Again there are addiction issues with
> >benzos, but from what I understand, benzo abuse is a rare.
>
> I think careful monitoring can minimize the risk of abuse, but Diane does not seem to feel that this is a problem for her. (Not to put words in your mouth, Diane; that's just how I read it. See below.)
>
> >If Diane can beat heroin addiction (about
> > the worst there is, from what I understand), I'm sure she could handle having some Klonapin lying
> > around.
>
> I'm a little confused. I didn't think she said anywhere that she'd been addicted to heroin. Also there's a big difference between being addicted to a drug and simply experiencing withdrawal from chronic use.
>
> > Not knowing anything really about methadone except that it helps one make the transition from heroin
> > abuse to abstainance, is it impossible to be in methadone indefinitely? Are there no legal ways to
> > procure this drug if it makes you euthymic and productive? Is methadone just a milder narcotic?
>
> Methadone is interesting. It's not much "milder" than morphine or heroin, as such, but it doesn't produce so much euphoria, for the most part.
>
> The legal aspects of treating opioid addiction with opioid agonists are also peculiar. It's only legal if it's done through special clinics dedicated to the purpose of treating heroin addiction. Methadone can't be prescribed for this purpose on an outpatient basis - addicts have to go to the clinic to get their dose. It's given orally, usually dissolved in orange juice (this is to prevent them from tonguing it). Altogether dehumanizing, if you ask me (not that anyone ever has).
>
> However: if pain is what is being treated, methadone has the same status as any other CII drug. You can get a month's supply, no refills, with a written prescription. (Details may vary from state to state.) Ditto for off-label uses, such as depression or dysthymia.
>
> So all you have to do is convince a doctor to do it. Oh, wait....

 

Re: Unconventional reaction to drugs.Opposite to norm

Posted by Dysthymic Duck on October 20, 1999, at 7:53:36

In reply to Unconventional reaction to drugs.Opposite to norm, posted by Diane on October 19, 1999, at 15:28:26

Hi Diane,

I turn 31 myself in about 2 weeks, and have been
moping around about not having found a working
combo. So, congrats, and thanks for lift. :-)

On methadone issue, I'm amost positive my doctor
prescribes methodone for depression, if that's
the only thing the person responds to (he even
gave me a sample, to see if I'd respond). So
I'm a little confused -- were you getting it
from a detox clinic, and/or is it just illegal
in your state for a physician to it ? (I live in
California.)


Oh, and about wierd/paradoxical reactions...
Whew! Yeah, I've got some. Many, but not all dopamine stimulating (releasing)
drugs put me to sleep (wellbutrin, deprenyl,
amantadine, hydergine). Ritalin actually
brought me to the point of tears -- I felt angushed
and deeply pained, but for no particular reason.
Adderall (dexedrine salts) actually does energize
me, but again I feel angushed and tortured on it.
The only way I can imagine someone abusing dexedrine
is if they have a VERY different reaction to me.

Xanax actually perks me up, unless I take a ton
(>20mg) of it. I get more done, have more
motivation, etc. (and even better,
it helps with the depression significantly).
The same with clonopin. My doctor was getting
a bit frustrated I think I said to me "you react
backwards to everything I give you". :-)

P.S. I'm irregular in checking me email,
sometimes up to a week.

 

Re: Unconventional reaction to drugs.Opposite to norm

Posted by Dysthymic Duck on October 20, 1999, at 8:13:31

In reply to Re: Unconventional reaction to drugs.Opposite to norm, posted by Adam on October 19, 1999, at 21:57:13

> As for my assumptions about addiction: True, it is nowhere stated. I assumed that Diane was taking methadone, as many do, to help break heroin addiction/dependance. It seems a
> bit strange to treat an unaddicted person with what Diane says is an addictive substance (since it's clear Diane was not treated with methadone to relieve the symptoms of a depression).

I think the deal is, methodone doesn't get you the
high that heroin does, it just staves off withdrawl.
IOW, it punches into the particular opiate receptor
that needs stimulaion to prevent you from getting sick,
but it doesn't stimulate the particular receptor that
gets you high.

So tolerance builds, on that first receptor, and
more methodone is needed to keep withdrawl away.
Sort of like addiction without any high. Not the
greatest deal in the world, but a better one,
anyway.

> I also don't understand completely the difference between addiction and experiencing withdrawl from chronic use. But, in truth, I've never completely understood the term "addiction",
> as there are so many varieties ("psychological" vs. "physical", whatever that means, etc.). But, in truth, I was imagining something sort of "Trainspotting"-esque where a "chemical
> dependancy", such that quitting would be very painful without some chemical help, existed. Diane, if I'm out of line here, please let me know. I meant no disrespect in any case. I
> personally don't have anything but sympathy for those who self-medicate. The idea that so many are punished in this society for trying to dull the pain of life makes me quite angry,
> sometimes. I am, myself, essentially dependant on drugs to function, and coming to grips with that has not always been easy, I think in large part because such dependancies are seen
> by society as a weakness. Am I an addict? I wonder.
>
> I really hope you find something, Diane. I think you are putting your computer to extremely good use. There are a lot of very knowledgeable people here who can help you get some
> good ideas. Perhaps you can also get some pointers to a good pdoc in your area who's not afraid to experiment a little. Best of luck.
>
> Adam
>
>
> > (The below contains my understanding of the law on methadone maintenance. If anyone knows otherwise I'd like to know.)
> >
> > >Umm, this may be a silly suggestion, but aren't benzodiazapines very similar to opiates?
> >
> > No. They're not very good antidepressants, for one thing. For another the mechanism of action is just completely different.
> >
> > Benzodiazepines are basically sedatives, and this is the same mechanism responsible for their antianxiety effects. They potentiate the inhibitory neurotransmitter GABA.
> >
> > Methadone & co. work on a completely different system, the opioid system. The relevant receptor is the subtype known as mu (as in the Greek letter).
> >
> > Don't equate naltrexone with what are normally considered opiates. Naltrexone is an opioid *antagonist* - in other words, it blocks opioid receptors (most prominently the mu receptor, but also kappa and delta). Because of all the hype, I asked Dr. Bodkin about it, and his experience using it in depressed patients is that it tends to be dysphoric, if it has any effect on mood.
> >
> > A small number of case reports have suggested it has an augmenting effect on SSRIs in some people. Whether this is a specific effect, and if so how often it happens, is not known.
> >
> > >Again there are addiction issues with
> > >benzos, but from what I understand, benzo abuse is a rare.
> >
> > I think careful monitoring can minimize the risk of abuse, but Diane does not seem to feel that this is a problem for her. (Not to put words in your mouth, Diane; that's just how I read it. See below.)
> >
> > >If Diane can beat heroin addiction (about
> > > the worst there is, from what I understand), I'm sure she could handle having some Klonapin lying
> > > around.
> >
> > I'm a little confused. I didn't think she said anywhere that she'd been addicted to heroin. Also there's a big difference between being addicted to a drug and simply experiencing withdrawal from chronic use.
> >
> > > Not knowing anything really about methadone except that it helps one make the transition from heroin
> > > abuse to abstainance, is it impossible to be in methadone indefinitely? Are there no legal ways to
> > > procure this drug if it makes you euthymic and productive? Is methadone just a milder narcotic?
> >
> > Methadone is interesting. It's not much "milder" than morphine or heroin, as such, but it doesn't produce so much euphoria, for the most part.
> >
> > The legal aspects of treating opioid addiction with opioid agonists are also peculiar. It's only legal if it's done through special clinics dedicated to the purpose of treating heroin addiction. Methadone can't be prescribed for this purpose on an outpatient basis - addicts have to go to the clinic to get their dose. It's given orally, usually dissolved in orange juice (this is to prevent them from tonguing it). Altogether dehumanizing, if you ask me (not that anyone ever has).
> >
> > However: if pain is what is being treated, methadone has the same status as any other CII drug. You can get a month's supply, no refills, with a written prescription. (Details may vary from state to state.) Ditto for off-label uses, such as depression or dysthymia.
> >
> > So all you have to do is convince a doctor to do it. Oh, wait....

 

Re: addiction?

Posted by Bob on October 20, 1999, at 9:45:25

In reply to Unconventional reaction to drugs.Opposite to norm, posted by Diane on October 19, 1999, at 15:28:26

From Diane's original post:

> And I am not talking Heroin abuse here. I've been
> clean sense 1985. Been off methadone sense 1992.

Diane, for the sake of our curiousity (and if you don't mind saying -- we've all had our problems, so we've got no right to condemn =^), what were you clean from since 1985? From what you've said, it sounds like you were on "something" prior to 1985, then on methadone between 1985 and 1992.

I hope this discussion is helping you out.

Cheers,
Bob

 

Re: addiction?

Posted by Sean on October 20, 1999, at 13:58:23

In reply to Re: addiction?, posted by Bob on October 20, 1999, at 9:45:25

> From Diane's original post:
>
> > And I am not talking Heroin abuse here. I've been
> > clean sense 1985. Been off methadone sense 1992.
>
> Diane, for the sake of our curiousity (and if you don't mind saying -- we've all had our problems, so we've got no right to condemn =^), what were you clean from since 1985? From what you've said, it sounds like you were on "something" prior to 1985, then on methadone between 1985 and 1992.
>
> I hope this discussion is helping you out.
>
> Cheers,
> Bob


I think we also need to keep in mind that for
some people, the endorphin system seems to be
involved in the origin of their depression. These
people actually need an opioid med to get
relief, and all things considered, these drugs
are easy on the body.

As for a new med, how about Naltrexone?

Sean.

 

Re: addiction? reply to Bobs ?

Posted by Diane on October 20, 1999, at 15:33:58

In reply to Re: addiction?, posted by Bob on October 20, 1999, at 9:45:25

> From Diane's original post:
>
> > And I am not talking Heroin abuse here. I've been
> > clean sense 1985. Been off methadone sense 1992.
>
> Diane, for the sake of our curiousity (and if you don't mind saying -- we've all had our problems, so we've got no right to condemn =^), what were you clean from since 1985? From what you've said, it sounds like you were on "something" prior to 1985, then on methadone between 1985 and 1992.
>
> I hope this discussion is helping you out.
>
> Cheers,
> Bob

I was a heroin addict from 1975 until 1985 when I got on Methadone.
A totally unexpected "side effect" was my depression disappeared!

I was the exact opposite of my former self (before 1975)
I'm not kidding when I say it was a miracle.


 

Re: addiction? reply to Sean

Posted by Diane on October 20, 1999, at 16:14:05

In reply to Re: addiction?, posted by Sean on October 20, 1999, at 13:58:23

> > From Diane's original post:
> >
> > > And I am not talking Heroin abuse here. I've been
> > > clean sense 1985. Been off methadone sense 1992.
> >
> > Diane, for the sake of our curiousity (and if you don't mind saying -- we've all had our problems, so we've got no right to condemn =^), what were you clean from since 1985? From what you've said, it sounds like you were on "something" prior to 1985, then on methadone between 1985 and 1992.
> >
> > I hope this discussion is helping you out.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Bob
>
>
> I think we also need to keep in mind that for
> some people, the endorphin system seems to be
> involved in the origin of their depression. These
> people actually need an opioid med to get
> relief, and all things considered, these drugs
> are easy on the body.
>
> As for a new med, how about Naltrexone?
>
> Sean.

>how about Naltrexone?
When I see That word my immediate thought is, withdrawal. Like NALOXONE (NARCAN)the narcotic antagonist.
In other words I don't know nothing about it but just the way it's spelled sends shivers down my spine :o)
I'll look into it tho. Thanks for the suggestion.

>these drugs are easy on the body.

Right. The only problem I had was constipation.
I view Methadone as a simple, sort of basic, if you will, acting drug.
They have proven over the past 30+ odd years that it's been around that it's harmless.

AND unlike anti-depressants you don't have to worry about having freaky behavior flipouts, ya know what I mean?
Anti-depressants scare me. I've done some totally out of character things on anti-depressants. Things that I am shamed to the core about.
I'm scared of anti-depressants.

Diane, thanks Sean

 

Re: reply to andrewb & Buprenorphine 4 depression

Posted by Diane on October 20, 1999, at 16:34:49

In reply to Re: Unconventional reaction to drugs.Opposite to norm, posted by andrewb on October 19, 1999, at 16:57:06

> You have an interesting story! Buprenorphine has been used to treat depression and is legally available without prescription from overseas.
> >

YOU wounldn't happen to have a particular vendor in mind would you?

I'd be VERY interested in that. Do you think
I was under the impression it was controlled same as Methadone.
but then I never even thought of overseas with regard to Buprenorphine. DAH!

Thanks I'm excited now.

Here's a what I believe they call an abstract. I found it here at: http://www.biopsychiatry.com/bupref.html

" Opiates were used to treat major depression until the mid-1950s. The advent of opioids with
mixed agonist-antagonist or partial agonist activity, with reduced dependence and abuse
liabilities, has made possible the reevaluation of opioids for this indication. This is of potential
importance for the population of depressed patients who are unresponsive to or intolerant of
conventional antidepressant agents. Ten subjects with treatment-refractory, unipolar,
nonpsychotic, major depression were treated with the opioid partial agonist buprenorphine in an
open-label study. Three subjects were unable to tolerate more than two doses because of side
effects including malaise, nausea, and dysphoria. The remaining seven completed 4 to 6 weeks of
treatment and as a group showed clinically striking improvement in both subjective and objective
measures of depression. Much of this improvement was observed by the end of 1 week of
treatment and persisted throughout the trial. Four subjects achieved complete remission of
symptoms by the end of the trial (Hamilton Rating Scale for Depression scores < or = 6), two were
moderately improved, and one deteriorated. These findings suggest a possible role for
buprenorphine in treating refractory depression. "

Thanks again ANDREWB

 

Re: reply to andrewb & Buprenorphine 4 depression

Posted by Adam on October 20, 1999, at 17:56:13

In reply to Re: reply to andrewb & Buprenorphine 4 depression , posted by Diane on October 20, 1999, at 16:34:49

If my memory serves me, that abstract was written by Dr. JA Bodkin. I might see him in a week, or at least
someone who works with him. I suppose I could ask a couple questions, if you had any Dianne. They're pretty
nice there, and the doc I'm working with, if he isn't pressed for time, actually likes talking psychoparm
with me, so perhaps I could gather info.

> > You have an interesting story! Buprenorphine has been used to treat depression and is legally available without prescription from overseas.
> > >
>
> YOU wounldn't happen to have a particular vendor in mind would you?
>
> I'd be VERY interested in that. Do you think
> I was under the impression it was controlled same as Methadone.
> but then I never even thought of overseas with regard to Buprenorphine. DAH!
>
> Thanks I'm excited now.
>
> Here's a what I believe they call an abstract. I found it here at: http://www.biopsychiatry.com/bupref.html
>
> " Opiates were used to treat major depression until the mid-1950s. The advent of opioids with
> mixed agonist-antagonist or partial agonist activity, with reduced dependence and abuse
> liabilities, has made possible the reevaluation of opioids for this indication. This is of potential
> importance for the population of depressed patients who are unresponsive to or intolerant of
> conventional antidepressant agents. Ten subjects with treatment-refractory, unipolar,
> nonpsychotic, major depression were treated with the opioid partial agonist buprenorphine in an
> open-label study. Three subjects were unable to tolerate more than two doses because of side
> effects including malaise, nausea, and dysphoria. The remaining seven completed 4 to 6 weeks of
> treatment and as a group showed clinically striking improvement in both subjective and objective
> measures of depression. Much of this improvement was observed by the end of 1 week of
> treatment and persisted throughout the trial. Four subjects achieved complete remission of
> symptoms by the end of the trial (Hamilton Rating Scale for Depression scores moderately improved, and one deteriorated. These findings suggest a possible role for
> buprenorphine in treating refractory depression. "
>
> Thanks again ANDREWB

 

Re: reply to Adam & Buprenorphine 4 depression

Posted by Diane on October 20, 1999, at 19:15:46

In reply to Re: reply to andrewb & Buprenorphine 4 depression , posted by Adam on October 20, 1999, at 17:56:13

> If my memory serves me, that abstract was written by Dr. JA Bodkin. I might see him in a week, or at least
> someone who works with him. I suppose I could ask a couple questions, if you had any Dianne. They're pretty
> nice there, and the doc I'm working with, if he isn't pressed for time, actually likes talking psychoparm
> with me, so perhaps I could gather info.
>
> Buprenorphine has been used to treat depression and is legally available without prescription from overseas.
> andrewb

Adam
I'm looking to track down some Buprenorphine to see if it will work for me and my depression (my shadow).
Andrewb (above says) I can get it overseas. How you go about hunting down an overseas on-line pharmacy, I do NOT know.
To say nothing about trusting them. I'm open to recommendations.
As I've stated else where I am scared of anti-depressants. And Buprenorphine is in the opioid line, which is what works for me.

I wouldn't know what to ask except my original questions
why methadone WAKES me up, alleviates my depression (like having a type A mind in a type B body)
where as stimulants make me tired, extremely depressed, irritable, unfocused and
hinders my breathing.

I gotta go here, my cat is demanding to be fed RIGHT NOW!
I'll be back in a little while.
Diane


 

Re: Unconventional reaction to drugs.Opposite to norm

Posted by saint james on October 21, 1999, at 5:31:04

In reply to Unconventional reaction to drugs.Opposite to norm, posted by Diane on October 19, 1999, at 15:28:26

How about rapid detox to get off herion ? I may have mis-understood this post but you mentioned methadone so I am assuming a pre-existing addiction to opiods. With rapid detox you are off
of the drugs and free of side effects in 8 hrs.

james

 

Re: reply to the Saint James

Posted by Diane on October 21, 1999, at 21:10:59

In reply to Re: Unconventional reaction to drugs.Opposite to norm, posted by saint james on October 21, 1999, at 5:31:04

> How about rapid detox to get off herion ? I may have mis-understood this post but you mentioned methadone so I am assuming a pre-existing addiction to opiods. With rapid detox you are off
> of the drugs and free of side effects in 8 hrs.
>
> james

I was introduced to methadone via heroin addiction many moons ago.
I have no drug problems now.
I stopped using heroin in 1985. Methadone 1992.
I take zero drugs, outside of consuming 24oz. of coffee a day.
I even stopped consuming sugar and drink only distilled water!
I am CLEAN CLEAN CLEAN.

I don't want Buprenorphine for drug addiction.
I want to try it for depression. Methadone worked better than anything.
Maybe this Buprenorphine will help.

Diane

 

buprenorphine

Posted by Elizabeth on October 26, 1999, at 20:38:03

In reply to Re: reply to Adam & Buprenorphine 4 depression , posted by Diane on October 20, 1999, at 19:15:46

> > If my memory serves me, that abstract was written by Dr. JA Bodkin. I might see him in a week, or at least
> > someone who works with him.

Yes, he was the primary author of that paper, and he is the one who recommended buprenorphine to me. I couldn't deal with the side effects on a day-to-day basis, but I still take it occasionally for breakthrough symptoms. I take it intranasally - no injecting necessary (though to tell the truth, IM or even IV would probably be less of a pain in the *ss).

(Which doc are you working with, BTW, Adam?)

> As I've stated else where I am scared of anti-depressants. And Buprenorphine is in the opioid line, which is what works for me.

Indeed...at low doses, it effectively works as a full agonist.

> I wouldn't know what to ask except my original questions
> why methadone WAKES me up, alleviates my depression (like having a type A mind in a type B body)
> where as stimulants make me tired, extremely depressed, irritable, unfocused and
> hinders my breathing.

It's not clear why some people have "paradoxical" sedation on stimulants, but you're not alone there. As for the other side effects, those can happen too.

As for the other part, I know that opioids lift my mood and energy, and in fact make it harder for me to sleep (though buprenorphine gave me some wicked cool hypnagogic hallucinations).

G'luck.

 

Re: addiction? reply to Sean

Posted by Elizabeth on October 26, 1999, at 20:45:19

In reply to Re: addiction? reply to Sean, posted by Diane on October 20, 1999, at 16:14:05

> When I see That word my immediate thought is, withdrawal. Like NALOXONE (NARCAN)the narcotic antagonist.

Yes. Naltrexone (Revia) works much like Narcan, but it's longer-acting. People take it after they've gotten off of heroin, to keep from relapsing. When I asked Dr. Bodkin (author of the single study on buprenorphine in depression that I know of) about it, he said that in his experience it usually makes depressed patients feel worse, not better.

(Recent research indicates it may alleviate dissociative symptoms, however, in case anyone's interested.)

> Right. The only problem I had was constipation.

The limiting factor for me also!

> Anti-depressants scare me. I've done some totally out of character things on anti-depressants. Things that I am shamed to the core about.
> I'm scared of anti-depressants.

They're all different...though I did have an episode of seizing and delirium (diagnosed as central serotonin syndrome) while taking Effexor and a weird memory-lapse episode on Nardil, standard antidepressants have been pretty good to me, overall, and I never had a serious adverse reaction to any of the (many) others I have tried.


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