Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 2881

Shown: posts 1 to 25 of 25. This is the beginning of the thread.

 

night terrors

Posted by Terry on February 8, 1999, at 9:24:59

I am a consumer who is very knowledgable about psychopharmacology. I am bipolar type II, diagnosed 2/ 1/2 years ago. I take 1000 Depakote daily with 150 mg Serzone (for depression that occurs on Depakote alone) at night as well as Catapress 0.2 mg at night for sleep. I also often take Benadryl 25 mg at night to help me sleep. I recently was started on low-dose Ritalin for cognitive problems my psychiatrist and I believe may be due to ADHD. Or possibly from one of the many meds I'm on. At any rate, I have trouble paying attention at times and frequently lose things, forget things, etc. I've been well-controlled on these meds, although I'm a little hyper on the Ritalin, but have only started on it. My only concern with my current regimen is weight gain (22 pounds) since starting Depakote. I've had a few panic attacks in the past, which seemed to be caused by getting off SSRI antidepressants. Last night, I had what I think were night terrors. Every time I'd drift off to sleep, I'd wake up terrified for no reason and become disoriented. I felt as if I was dying. I didn't know where I was for a few minutes. I felt slightly dizzy too. When I finally did get to sleep, I had horribly disturbing nightmares. Has anyone been through this before? Any advice? I'm afraid to take any more drugs (like Klonopin) because I already feel like a walking drug store. I could ask my psychiatrist to up my Serzone from 150 mg, because it's supposed to help with panic disorders, but usually increasing an SSRI makes me hypomanic. Any suggestions would be much appreciated.

 

Re: night terrors

Posted by Buffalo Bill on February 8, 1999, at 10:53:51

In reply to night terrors, posted by Terry on February 8, 1999, at 9:24:59

I'm not bipolar and haven't taken any of the meds you listed (except klonopin), but I have had nightmares, or at least very weird dreams, from nearly every AD I've taken. And I see lots of similar reports from others. No night terrors as yet. I'd look for a correlation between onset of terrors and a new med or new dosage of a current med. And make sure your doctor takes this seriously as a drug effect, not just your underlying illness. I think most people know what's their usual depressed state and what's unusual, but doctors don't always trust this sense in their patients, probably even less in bipolars.

 

Re: night terrors

Posted by Terry on February 8, 1999, at 11:25:07

In reply to Re: night terrors, posted by Buffalo Bill on February 8, 1999, at 10:53:51

I've had bad dreams on antidepressants, but this was different. It was waking up as I was drifting into sleep with a horrible fear and not knowing where I was. Very scary. I'm calling it night terrors, but I'm not sure that's what it was. I think night terrors are considered part of panic disorder. The usual treatment for panic is SSRI antidepressants and/or klonopin. Up to this point that's worked for me. I was wanting to know if anyone else had experienced this particular phenomenon (not just nightmares) and what has worked for them. Thanks for your input!

 

Re: night terrors

Posted by clare on February 8, 1999, at 11:59:17

In reply to night terrors, posted by Terry on February 8, 1999, at 9:24:59

Terry
I was browsing through this website looking for
information about psychotherapy when I came upon
your note.
I'm not on medication, but have suffered
from depression throughout my life. I don't
want to sound insensitive or in any way
criticize your attempts to help yourself. I
just wanted to share how I helped myself
come to grips with a lifelong battle with anger
and depression. I began reading books by
Jung about dreams and their symbols. I have come, through my dreams and some formal analysis with
a Jungian therapist, to understand some of my buried problems. My anger has diminished and my sense of inner peace has grown.

Your message about night terrors caught my
attention because dreams are messages from your
unconscious. I would say that your unconscious is
trying to help and the drugs are making it very
difficult. I know you probably can't just stop
taking drugs, but I would advise you to seek help
in that direction. Perhaps if you could write
down the nightmares and start thinking about what
they may be trying to say, you could get some
more insight. It's important to trust in your
own mind.

Again, please forgive me if I sound critical or
condescending. My heart goes out to you and I
hope you can find someone who can help you get
off drugs so that you can discover yourself and
make peace with yourself. YOur dreams are so important.

Good luck

Clare Walsh


> I am a consumer who is very knowledgable about psychopharmacology. I am bipolar type II, diagnosed 2/ 1/2 years ago. I take 1000 Depakote daily with 150 mg Serzone (for depression that occurs on Depakote alone) at night as well as Catapress 0.2 mg at night for sleep. I also often take Benadryl 25 mg at night to help me sleep. I recently was started on low-dose Ritalin for cognitive problems my psychiatrist and I believe may be due to ADHD. Or possibly from one of the many meds I'm on. At any rate, I have trouble paying attention at times and frequently lose things, forget things, etc. I've been well-controlled on these meds, although I'm a little hyper on the Ritalin, but have only started on it. My only concern with my current regimen is weight gain (22 pounds) since starting Depakote. I've had a few panic attacks in the past, which seemed to be caused by getting off SSRI antidepressants. Last night, I had what I think were night terrors. Every time I'd drift off to sleep, I'd wake up terrified for no reason and become disoriented. I felt as if I was dying. I didn't know where I was for a few minutes. I felt slightly dizzy too. When I finally did get to sleep, I had horribly disturbing nightmares. Has anyone been through this before? Any advice? I'm afraid to take any more drugs (like Klonopin) because I already feel like a walking drug store. I could ask my psychiatrist to up my Serzone from 150 mg, because it's supposed to help with panic disorders, but usually increasing an SSRI makes me hypomanic. Any suggestions would be much appreciated.

 

Re: night terrors

Posted by Carol on February 8, 1999, at 12:52:23

In reply to Re: night terrors, posted by clare on February 8, 1999, at 11:59:17

Terry,
I would like to kindly disagree with Clare. I've been in treatment for depression for the last 15 years. I've tried with meds and without, but I've found I can't use the tools I've learned unless I have some effective meds to support me. There was a discussion here earlier this month about "success stories". My definition of success and successful treatment is to find a medication or mix of meds that allows me to be me. If some people can do this without the meds, congratulations, but that's just not possible for many of us.
I have not taken your meds, but I have always had night terrors, nightmares, and night sweats. I think the terrors that I get are a little different than yours. As I'm falling asleep, all of a sudden I feel like I'm falling, and then I tense up and jump, as if I'm trying to avoid falling into whatever I was falling in to. It takes a while to calm down enough to try to fall back asleep. I've had most of these since I was a child, and they don't seem to change much with meds.
The forgetfulness and trouble paying attention might be due more to your sleep patterns than the meds. If I'm tired, it's a lot more difficult to stay focused the next day. You might try varying your nighttime meds. I had tried some OTC melatonin for a couple of months in 1997, but it took me quite a while to figure out that this stuff was still in my system in the morning, and really didn't clear out of my head until 2 or 3 in the afternoon.
I'm doing reasonably well right now, but some of my sleep disturbances are related to what I've eaten since 4 PM (even for 11 PM bedtime). Try to stay away from caffeine after 4PM. Alcohol throws my sleep patterns off, too. Spicy foods or things with lots of onions or green peppers will have me vividly dreaming until I get up and take di-gel. I haven't tried Benadryl to sleep, but I will take "nyquil" liqui-tabs to help keep my head clear and help me to sleep. I've been back and forth with weight gain. One of my "best" sleep remedies is milk and poptarts. Yes, it's fattening, but the combination usually puts me out in around 15-20 minutes. You can try just milk at bedtime, but the carbo's seem to potentiate the milk's effect.
I am taking a low dose of lithium at night, and this seems to help me sleep, too. My overall meds:Wellbutrin SR 500 mg, Desyrel 150 mg hs, Eskalith CR 450 mg hs, plus unrelated blood pressure and headache meds.
My nightmares and night terrors also seem to be related to what's going on in the rest of my life. During the part of the year (like now) when my company does performance evaluations and trying to set performance guidelines for the next year, I often have recurring nightmares about school and graduate school in particular. I know that this is just "stress" related, but that doesn't help me sleep better.
I hope some of this helps.
Good Luck
Carol

 

Re: night terrors

Posted by Sean on February 8, 1999, at 13:26:51

In reply to night terrors, posted by Terry on February 8, 1999, at 9:24:59

> I am a consumer who is very knowledgable about psychopharmacology. I am bipolar type II, diagnosed 2/ 1/2 years ago. I take 1000 Depakote daily with 150 mg Serzone (for depression that occurs on Depakote alone) at night as well as Catapress 0.2 mg at night for sleep. I also often take Benadryl 25 mg at night to help me sleep. I recently was started on low-dose Ritalin for cognitive problems my psychiatrist and I believe may be due to ADHD. Or possibly from one of the many meds I'm on. At any rate, I have trouble paying attention at times and frequently lose things, forget things, etc. I've been well-controlled on these meds, although I'm a little hyper on the Ritalin, but have only started on it. My only concern with my current regimen is weight gain (22 pounds) since starting Depakote. I've had a few panic attacks in the past, which seemed to be caused by getting off SSRI antidepressants. Last night, I had what I think were night terrors. Every time I'd drift off to sleep, I'd wake up terrified for no reason and become disoriented. I felt as if I was dying. I didn't know where I was for a few minutes. I felt slightly dizzy too. When I finally did get to sleep, I had horribly disturbing nightmares. Has anyone been through this before? Any advice? I'm afraid to take any more drugs (like Klonopin) because I already feel like a walking drug store. I could ask my psychiatrist to up my Serzone from 150 mg, because it's supposed to help with panic disorders, but usually increasing an SSRI makes me hypomanic. Any suggestions would be much appreciated.

The whole biochemistry vs. "mind" debate is very
fascinating to me. Ultimately, it seems to be a false
dichotomy. The brain is a biological organ which
deals with information, and at some level, this
information is experienced/processed as symbolic.
It is not possible to separate mind and matter.

So, psychotherapy alone (in some people) is sufficient
and will bring about the physiological changes we
associate with recovery. In others, the biological
component is too strong because the very organ the
psychotherapy needs to use (the brain) is simply
too dysfunctional to respond positively.

The art of psychiatry seems to be knowing when a
person is struggling against a physiological
process which limits the ability of talk therapy
to work...

Also, as for CG Jung, he makes some great points,
but jeez, talking about archetypes and symbols
seems pretty pointless when you're suicidal, manic,
or have not slept in weeks.

 

Re: night terrors

Posted by clare on February 8, 1999, at 14:24:21

In reply to night terrors, posted by Terry on February 8, 1999, at 9:24:59

I apologize if I sounded like I was discarding
the seriousness of anyone's depression or that
drugs do not provide relief in dire circumstances. I do worry about their long term
use as a treatment.

What caught me was Terry's experience of
dying as she's waking up and how frightening that
can be. I have had dreams where I awaken and
cannot move because I am so frightened - of what
I don't know - and that is without taking any
medication.

What resonates in me is that dreams are so
important that if you are having night terrors
then your psyche is telling you that something is
very wrong. Perhaps it's simply the combination
of drugs or the amount. But, your mind is saying
hey - something's wrong here - dreams are the one
thing that is truly ours without any intervention
from the outside - and to lose or discount that
source of wisdom is, I believe, a mistake.

Carol referred to her nightmares about graduate
school. I have had dreams throughout my life
of being in college and suddenly realizing I'd
never attended a class and today was the final.
THe anxiety and fear of failure was palpable. I've
also had recurring dreams of nazis throughout my life.
I am now reading "Meeting the Madwoman" by
Linda Leonard, in which she describes the dreams
of other women, and makes mention of many women
who dream of nazis and it having to do with their
relationship with a particular type of mother.
I would highly recommend the book to other women.
Terry, I don't know if you are a man or a woman.
Unfortunately, I don't have any books to recommend
to men.

I guess my point is, don't ignore your dreams.

As to Sean's point about psychiatry knowing
when to draw the line -
I went to a psychiatrist 18 years ago. He could
not understand why I was so angry and he told
me that several times. He told me it was good
that I rejected my mother when I was a child because my mother was mentally ill. What
he didn't know about the origins of my anger
I have come to find out through my study of Jung.
If your psychiatrist doesn't understand your
problem, and ascribes your failure to be cured
not to his failure, but to yours, does he really
know when to turn to drugs?


 

Re: night terrors

Posted by Sean on February 8, 1999, at 17:13:05

In reply to night terrors, posted by Terry on February 8, 1999, at 9:24:59

> I am a consumer who is very knowledgable about psychopharmacology. I am bipolar type II, diagnosed 2/ 1/2 years ago. I take 1000 Depakote daily with 150 mg Serzone (for depression that occurs on Depakote alone) at night as well as Catapress 0.2 mg at night for sleep. I also often take Benadryl 25 mg at night to help me sleep. I recently was started on low-dose Ritalin for cognitive problems my psychiatrist and I believe may be due to ADHD. Or possibly from one of the many meds I'm on. At any rate, I have trouble paying attention at times and frequently lose things, forget things, etc. I've been well-controlled on these meds, although I'm a little hyper on the Ritalin, but have only started on it. My only concern with my current regimen is weight gain (22 pounds) since starting Depakote. I've had a few panic attacks in the past, which seemed to be caused by getting off SSRI antidepressants. Last night, I had what I think were night terrors. Every time I'd drift off to sleep, I'd wake up terrified for no reason and become disoriented. I felt as if I was dying. I didn't know where I was for a few minutes. I felt slightly dizzy too. When I finally did get to sleep, I had horribly disturbing nightmares. Has anyone been through this before? Any advice? I'm afraid to take any more drugs (like Klonopin) because I already feel like a walking drug store. I could ask my psychiatrist to up my Serzone from 150 mg, because it's supposed to help with panic disorders, but usually increasing an SSRI makes me hypomanic. Any suggestions would be much appreciated.

I guess *understanding* the psychodynamic
origins of psychological illnes is often
useful. On the other hand, many of the most
sucessful forms of psychotherapy do not focus on
understanding per say. I do not need a dream to
tell me that "something" was wrong!

Perhaps the best way to think about mental illness
of any sort is to imagine there are many different
ways to arrive at the same symptomology. For
example, if a person was locked into a room with
that monster from Aliens chasing them (but not
quite catching them)at the end of this experiment
you would find somebody suffering from acute
anxiety. The physiology of the symptoms might be
exactly the same as a person with panic disorder,
but we would have a priori insight to the cause
of things.

But suppose we have a person with acute anxiety
symptoms and we are unable to find credible
evidence of abuse or experiences which are beyond
the average human to withstand without sequelae?
What if their anxiety is physiological and the
result of neural process unrealted to
external stimuli? With enough work, we could
eventually pull tiny grains of truth together
to form a narrative, or story, of that persons
life in which the anxiety is both understandable
and appropriate. This could be done in a Freudian
model, a Jungian model, theological, or (of
course) a biological model.

I personally suspect that because we are
storytelling beings, the exact type of story is
less important than that the story makes subjective
sense to the sufferer. Without a "reason" for the
suffering we would be utterly without hope.

An interesting aspect of this discussion is which
of these "stories" is objectively true? As a culture,
we are in the throws of biological materialism
at this point, so I certainly agree that the
opinion polls are ahead of the evidence. But there
is no question that in the spectrum of mental
illness we have people with greater and lesser
degrees of inherited contribution to their suffering.
It is very difficult to tease this out given the
common physiological pathway of the symptoms.

I think most people who have taken medication for
a mood disorder of some sort already feel strange
about it. It get's pretty close to the whole free
will thing I guess, and the private relationship
we all have to the *self* has to really stretch
to include a molecule of some sort! Strange though,
these molecules can restore choice in ones life...

I

 

Re: night terrors

Posted by Terry on February 8, 1999, at 17:53:10

In reply to Re: night terrors, posted by Carol on February 8, 1999, at 12:52:23

Dear Carol -- thanks for your support and for sharing your story with me. I have been thinking about this issue all day and I think I've decided that since the only thing different that's happened is the Ritalin, and perhaps that's causing the night terrors. I put a call into my psychiatrist today and I think he will be OK with me stopping it. Also, I just don't feel it's helping with my attention problems, so it's probably not indicated anyway.

I think you're right about just finding what works for you. the milk and Pop Tarts sound like a great idea. Best of luck to you and I'll post anything new here I find out, if I do. Terry


> Terry,
> I would like to kindly disagree with Clare. I've been in treatment for depression for the last 15 years. I've tried with meds and without, but I've found I can't use the tools I've learned unless I have some effective meds to support me. There was a discussion here earlier this month about "success stories". My definition of success and successful treatment is to find a medication or mix of meds that allows me to be me. If some people can do this without the meds, congratulations, but that's just not possible for many of us.
> I have not taken your meds, but I have always had night terrors, nightmares, and night sweats. I think the terrors that I get are a little different than yours. As I'm falling asleep, all of a sudden I feel like I'm falling, and then I tense up and jump, as if I'm trying to avoid falling into whatever I was falling in to. It takes a while to calm down enough to try to fall back asleep. I've had most of these since I was a child, and they don't seem to change much with meds.
> The forgetfulness and trouble paying attention might be due more to your sleep patterns than the meds. If I'm tired, it's a lot more difficult to stay focused the next day. You might try varying your nighttime meds. I had tried some OTC melatonin for a couple of months in 1997, but it took me quite a while to figure out that this stuff was still in my system in the morning, and really didn't clear out of my head until 2 or 3 in the afternoon.
> I'm doing reasonably well right now, but some of my sleep disturbances are related to what I've eaten since 4 PM (even for 11 PM bedtime). Try to stay away from caffeine after 4PM. Alcohol throws my sleep patterns off, too. Spicy foods or things with lots of onions or green peppers will have me vividly dreaming until I get up and take di-gel. I haven't tried Benadryl to sleep, but I will take "nyquil" liqui-tabs to help keep my head clear and help me to sleep. I've been back and forth with weight gain. One of my "best" sleep remedies is milk and poptarts. Yes, it's fattening, but the combination usually puts me out in around 15-20 minutes. You can try just milk at bedtime, but the carbo's seem to potentiate the milk's effect.
> I am taking a low dose of lithium at night, and this seems to help me sleep, too. My overall meds:Wellbutrin SR 500 mg, Desyrel 150 mg hs, Eskalith CR 450 mg hs, plus unrelated blood pressure and headache meds.
> My nightmares and night terrors also seem to be related to what's going on in the rest of my life. During the part of the year (like now) when my company does performance evaluations and trying to set performance guidelines for the next year, I often have recurring nightmares about school and graduate school in particular. I know that this is just "stress" related, but that doesn't help me sleep better.
> I hope some of this helps.
> Good Luck
> Carol

 

Re: night terrors

Posted by Carol on February 9, 1999, at 8:17:19

In reply to Re: night terrors, posted by Terry on February 8, 1999, at 17:53:10

>Terry,
Some of your attention problems could be due to a "hang-over" effect from the meds you take at night. On my last cycle between meds and trying to find meds that worked without making me excessively groggy, one Dr. had me on a lot (450-600 mg) of Desyrel at bedtime. I slept really well, but then I found that I just wasn't able to wake up enough to go to work the next day AND be a safe driver and do my work safely (I work in a laboratory). You might want to ask your Dr. for a med where you can do some adjustment of your bedtime dose. For example, the 150 mg size of desyrel comes in a tablet that can be split in half or in thirds. My prescription is for 1 1/2 tablets or 225 mg, but I can adjust this to 200mg (1 and 1/3) or down to 150 mg. Mostly, this is a balance between sleeping very soundly and being alert in the morning.
Unfortunately, there's no good way except trial and error to find out what the appropriate balance is, and you'll need to have a good history with your Dr. so that he trusts you to make this kind of decision somewhat independently.

Good luck,
Carol

Dear Carol -- thanks for your support and for sharing your story with me. I have been thinking about this issue all day and I think I've decided that since the only thing different that's happened is the Ritalin, and perhaps that's causing the night terrors. I put a call into my psychiatrist today and I think he will be OK with me stopping it. Also, I just don't feel it's helping with my attention problems, so it's probably not indicated anyway.
>
> I think you're right about just finding what works for you. the milk and Pop Tarts sound like a great idea. Best of luck to you and I'll post anything new here I find out, if I do. Terry
>
>

 

Nazis!

Posted by Buffalo Bill on February 9, 1999, at 10:58:00

In reply to Re: night terrors, posted by clare on February 8, 1999, at 14:24:21

This is the first time I've heard of others dreaming of Nazis. I had such dreams often during one year, then they stopped (or changed). In regard to Linda Leonard, I'm male and my father was the dominating, critical parent in my family -- my mother was and is the soul of graciousness and empathy. Maybe the Nazis just represent whoever is prominent in the dreamer's psyche.

Still, it's interesting that many women have these dreams -- I inherited my mother's temperament, which probably accounts for my depression as well, which seems to be more common in women.

And of course I have the exact same dream about taking a final for a course I somehow forgot to attend.

Both these dream types bolster my theory that though we are all unique, we aren't as unique as we think!

To weigh in on the mind/brain question, temperament emerges soon after birth and remains fairly constant for life -- a pretty huge genetic/bio factor in emotional life. Maybe free will is like a Chinese menu -- we have choices but only within a certain list of possibilities. I get 1 from Column A, 1 from Column B; you get 2 from A and none from B; some people only get a choice between the soup or the eggroll, no entrees at all...

 

Re: night terrors

Posted by Tess on February 9, 1999, at 13:51:05

In reply to Re: night terrors, posted by Carol on February 9, 1999, at 8:17:19

I have read of great deal of Jungian works and was part of a dream interpretation group for a few years and did dream work with my therapist. And what do I conclude from all of this? I am extremely grateful for modern medicine and for antidepressants which is giving me a life. With an AD I am ME without the depression. Period. I no longer worry about the long term effects and I try to deal with the side effects because the alternative is dreadful. Quite frankly, I think the long term effects to body and mind of an untreated depression if more worrisome.


>Terry,
> Some of your attention problems could be due to a "hang-over" effect from the meds you take at night. On my last cycle between meds and trying to find meds that worked without making me excessively groggy, one Dr. had me on a lot (450-600 mg) of Desyrel at bedtime. I slept really well, but then I found that I just wasn't able to wake up enough to go to work the next day AND be a safe driver and do my work safely (I work in a laboratory). You might want to ask your Dr. for a med where you can do some adjustment of your bedtime dose. For example, the 150 mg size of desyrel comes in a tablet that can be split in half or in thirds. My prescription is for 1 1/2 tablets or 225 mg, but I can adjust this to 200mg (1 and 1/3) or down to 150 mg. Mostly, this is a balance between sleeping very soundly and being alert in the morning.
> Unfortunately, there's no good way except trial and error to find out what the appropriate balance is, and you'll need to have a good history with your Dr. so that he trusts you to make this kind of decision somewhat independently.
>
> Good luck,
> Carol
>
>
>
> Dear Carol -- thanks for your support and for sharing your story with me. I have been thinking about this issue all day and I think I've decided that since the only thing different that's happened is the Ritalin, and perhaps that's causing the night terrors. I put a call into my psychiatrist today and I think he will be OK with me stopping it. Also, I just don't feel it's helping with my attention problems, so it's probably not indicated anyway.
> >
> > I think you're right about just finding what works for you. the milk and Pop Tarts sound like a great idea. Best of luck to you and I'll post anything new here I find out, if I do. Terry
> >
> >

 

Re: night terrors

Posted by Elaine on February 14, 1999, at 13:37:12

In reply to Re: night terrors, posted by Tess on February 9, 1999, at 13:51:05

> If Jung, Freud or any other non-medication method works, that's great. However, if Terry's feeling of dying is the same as mine, there is a sudden awakening with NO recollection of any dream state (which would make it difficult to analyze!) I awake with the instantaneous knowledge that I am dying. Or, I may awake and be disoriented. At some level, I recognize my apartment as mine, but the bizarre thoughts are there. I also awake "seeing" things in my room. Unfortunately, I think these started before I was on any meds (lithium for 8 years, AD off and on as needed, Depakote for awhile). I would be interested in knowing what these sleep awakening problems mean, too, and if they are related to meds or a sleep condition diagnosis. Hope this doesn't confuse things. Elaine

 

Re: night terrors

Posted by Terry on February 14, 1999, at 22:02:26

In reply to Re: night terrors, posted by Elaine on February 14, 1999, at 13:37:12

Elaine -- your experience sounds similar to mine. It's more like a panic attack or night terror than nightmares. I simply woke up scared to death, thought I was dying, and didn't know where I was for a few minutes. It was terrifying. I was able to calm down and go back to sleep eventually, but I feel this is a true biological phenomenon that doesn't have anything to do with dreams. I just hope it never happens again!

> > If Jung, Freud or any other non-medication method works, that's great. However, if Terry's feeling of dying is the same as mine, there is a sudden awakening with NO recollection of any dream state (which would make it difficult to analyze!) I awake with the instantaneous knowledge that I am dying. Or, I may awake and be disoriented. At some level, I recognize my apartment as mine, but the bizarre thoughts are there. I also awake "seeing" things in my room. Unfortunately, I think these started before I was on any meds (lithium for 8 years, AD off and on as needed, Depakote for awhile). I would be interested in knowing what these sleep awakening problems mean, too, and if they are related to meds or a sleep condition diagnosis. Hope this doesn't confuse things. Elaine

 

Re: night terrors

Posted by Elizabeth on February 17, 1999, at 0:23:40

In reply to Re: night terrors, posted by Terry on February 14, 1999, at 22:02:26

Terry et al.,

Just an off-the-wall observation, but all those meds are doing heaven knows what to your sleep cycle. I could hazard a guess as to what any one of them would do if taken alone, but....

Well, for example, clonidine often helps with nightmares. Some people say Depakote does too. Ritalin could suppress REM sleep, but it also could cause REM rebound if you are taking it earlier in the day (as most people do). And so on....

I would not recommend adding melatonin. It's a drug just like birth control pills, thyroid supplements, and insulin are drugs, and furthermore it seems to cause vivid dreaming not infrequently (when I asked around about ways I could increase my dreaming, a *lot* of people suggested melatonin). I'd also stay from the antihistamines (Benadryl etc.), as it's definitely possible they would do nasty things to your sleep even while prolonging it. And Carol: some of the antihypertensives (notably, beta blockers) have been known to cause or exacerbate nightmares.

I'd also speculate that your attention problems might be due to anxiety more than anything else. (Just because I think that's what it is for me (I had a failed trial of stimulants too, BTW).) Do you have the experience of "blanking out?" It could also be "fuzziness" from Depakote, I hear about that a lot. (What are your Depakote levels like BTW? Do you have them rechecked after adding something new? Med B can muck with the levels of Med A - pretty common actually.)

There is such a thing as a nocturnal panic attack; the secret to avoiding them is never to sleep. (Just kidding; antipanic medication should prevent nocturnal panic attacks as well as ones that happen when you're awake.)

I agree with Sean in general, although there is one thing he says that I question:
>Also, as for CG Jung, he makes some great points, but jeez, talking about archetypes and symbols seems pretty pointless when you're suicidal, manic, or have not slept in weeks.

Jung was the one who said, "Let the dreamer awake and you will see psychosis," n'est-ce pas? I thought that was very deep. (The rest of it appears to be bunk, in particular *any* sort of assertion that the secrets of the unconscious can be extracted from dream content. People like to come up with rationalizations for what their dreams "mean," but mostly it's either just that - rationalizing - or it's just restating the obvious, the manifest content of the dream (and even then it's still rationalizing).)

Well anyway, good luck, and don't overdo it with those pop tarts. :-) BTW, something that might help you figure out what's going on in there while you're asleep: if you're near an academic hospital you could go to their sleep lab and find out if any of the researchers could use you as an experimental subject. (Free polysomnograph, don't have to try to get the insurance to pay for it, and the researcher gets an interesting case out of it. If not, though, and if the problem persists after you've stopped the Ritalin, I personally think that you ought to consider a sleep study anyway if you can.)

-elizabeth

p.s. I don't think I've ever had the dream about going to school and finding out it was the day of exams, or showing up somewhere naked. Just for the record. :-) I did have one about Nazis (or rather, random guys who happened to be wearing Nazi uniforms) the night after I saw _Schindler's List_ the second time, though.

 

Re: night terrors

Posted by Terry on February 19, 1999, at 12:05:03

In reply to Re: night terrors, posted by Elizabeth on February 17, 1999, at 0:23:40

Elizabeth -- just a note to let you know I stopped the Ritalin, and the night terrors stopped. I really think that was causing it. I'm back on my usual Depakote and clonidine and feeling better. I do agree that my attention problems could be due to the Depakote. I've heard that can happen. Will talk to my doc about it when I see him next time.

As for the Jungian stuff, I'm open-minded, and I think whatever works for you is great. Years ago I read a lot of Jung and liked him. But I believe that so mental disorders are biochemical, and treatable first of all with medications. (Of course, mild depression can be alleviated in other ways, but clearly, people with major depression or schizophrenia or bipolar disorder aren't going to be helped by dream interpretation.) Then therapy can be used secondarily. All the info from the NIH and other big-bang researchers is pointing to a biological explanation for mental illness and even for things like addiction. In fact, I just read the NCI found the "gene" for nicotine addiction. I don't think you can ignore those findings.

Sorry to get on my soapbox. Thanks for your advice.

> Terry et al.,
>
> Just an off-the-wall observation, but all those meds are doing heaven knows what to your sleep cycle. I could hazard a guess as to what any one of them would do if taken alone, but....
>
> Well, for example, clonidine often helps with nightmares. Some people say Depakote does too. Ritalin could suppress REM sleep, but it also could cause REM rebound if you are taking it earlier in the day (as most people do). And so on....
>
> I would not recommend adding melatonin. It's a drug just like birth control pills, thyroid supplements, and insulin are drugs, and furthermore it seems to cause vivid dreaming not infrequently (when I asked around about ways I could increase my dreaming, a *lot* of people suggested melatonin). I'd also stay from the antihistamines (Benadryl etc.), as it's definitely possible they would do nasty things to your sleep even while prolonging it. And Carol: some of the antihypertensives (notably, beta blockers) have been known to cause or exacerbate nightmares.
>
> I'd also speculate that your attention problems might be due to anxiety more than anything else. (Just because I think that's what it is for me (I had a failed trial of stimulants too, BTW).) Do you have the experience of "blanking out?" It could also be "fuzziness" from Depakote, I hear about that a lot. (What are your Depakote levels like BTW? Do you have them rechecked after adding something new? Med B can muck with the levels of Med A - pretty common actually.)
>
> There is such a thing as a nocturnal panic attack; the secret to avoiding them is never to sleep. (Just kidding; antipanic medication should prevent nocturnal panic attacks as well as ones that happen when you're awake.)
>
> I agree with Sean in general, although there is one thing he says that I question:
> >Also, as for CG Jung, he makes some great points, but jeez, talking about archetypes and symbols seems pretty pointless when you're suicidal, manic, or have not slept in weeks.
>
> Jung was the one who said, "Let the dreamer awake and you will see psychosis," n'est-ce pas? I thought that was very deep. (The rest of it appears to be bunk, in particular *any* sort of assertion that the secrets of the unconscious can be extracted from dream content. People like to come up with rationalizations for what their dreams "mean," but mostly it's either just that - rationalizing - or it's just restating the obvious, the manifest content of the dream (and even then it's still rationalizing).)
>
> Well anyway, good luck, and don't overdo it with those pop tarts. :-) BTW, something that might help you figure out what's going on in there while you're asleep: if you're near an academic hospital you could go to their sleep lab and find out if any of the researchers could use you as an experimental subject. (Free polysomnograph, don't have to try to get the insurance to pay for it, and the researcher gets an interesting case out of it. If not, though, and if the problem persists after you've stopped the Ritalin, I personally think that you ought to consider a sleep study anyway if you can.)
>
> -elizabeth
>
> p.s. I don't think I've ever had the dream about going to school and finding out it was the day of exams, or showing up somewhere naked. Just for the record. :-) I did have one about Nazis (or rather, random guys who happened to be wearing Nazi uniforms) the night after I saw _Schindler's List_ the second time, though.

 

Re: night terrors

Posted by Elaine on February 19, 1999, at 21:50:39

In reply to Re: night terrors, posted by Terry on February 19, 1999, at 12:05:03

Terry - I'm glad to hear that your night terrors were alleviated. I don't think mine are from lithium or thyroxine, which I think were started after the "night terrors". I have been "Internetting" re hypnogogic phenomena. Fortunately, these incidents don't happen often. I wish my symptoms would neatly fit diagnoses; I always seem to be "abnormal" everything. Anyway, these night occurrences are more of a minor irritant. I've just always been curious and was quite intrigued to find someone with a similar problem. I hope stopping the ritalin was the permanent solution! Good luck!

 

Re: night terrors

Posted by Terry on February 21, 1999, at 20:55:51

In reply to Re: night terrors, posted by Elaine on February 19, 1999, at 21:50:39

Elaine -- thanks for the note. It is much better now that I'm off the Ritalin. And I know what you mean about not "neatly" fitting any diagnosis. I always wanted to be a textbook case! Oh, well...

> Terry - I'm glad to hear that your night terrors were alleviated. I don't think mine are from lithium or thyroxine, which I think were started after the "night terrors". I have been "Internetting" re hypnogogic phenomena. Fortunately, these incidents don't happen often. I wish my symptoms would neatly fit diagnoses; I always seem to be "abnormal" everything. Anyway, these night occurrences are more of a minor irritant. I've just always been curious and was quite intrigued to find someone with a similar problem. I hope stopping the ritalin was the permanent solution! Good luck!

 

Re: night terrors

Posted by Amy on September 3, 1999, at 16:35:43

In reply to Re: night terrors, posted by Elaine on February 19, 1999, at 21:50:39

hi. I am so glad i found this site. I have been on Celexa for a week now and i was put on it because the doctor seems to think i have panic disorder. I have severe physical symptoms like my head feeling so tight that it is going to explode. it presses down on the roof of my mouth like my brain is swelling. My eyes are dialated more than usual. I have disturbing nightmares. Gross. It's like i can't control my thoughts or what i am thinking. I wake up and wonder why in the heck i just had such a disgusting dream. Is this all part of anxiety or panic disorder. I hope celexa is as good as everyone has been saying. I feel like i can;t go on like this much longer before i am just going to crack!! Ahhhhhhh!!!
Any info would be much appreciated


 

Re: night terrors

Posted by Noa on September 7, 1999, at 21:21:03

In reply to Re: night terrors, posted by Terry on February 21, 1999, at 20:55:51

What Terry described sounds similar to something I have gotten from some of my meds--myoclonus. It is a sudden jerking of muscles when I am at rest, or drifting off to sleep. Most of the time it is just a slight twitch, but at times it was severe, and caused me to have a sudden total body jerk just after I fell asleep, accompanied by a sense of total panic, heart racing, etc. I remember having milder versions of this as a child, and it would feel like I was falling suddenly. But the version of it caused by ADs was much worse, and scarier. Also, I have sleep apnea, which, before I started treatment, caused me to wake suddenly in a panic, having dreamt that I was under water and unable to come to the surface to breathe. If snoring is an issue for you, this might be something to rule out. In any case, you might want to have a sleep study done because if the sudden feelings of terror awaken you at the beginning of your sleep, it might be causing microarousals throughout the night, which could greatly interfere with your sleep "architecture", as it is called in sleeplab lingo. Meaning, you can't stay in "deeper" sleep or REM sleep for long enough, because you keep "waking" (as far as the brain waves are concerned, even if you don't feel or seem awake and don't remember anything). For me, my apnea was causing me to have microarousals all night that made it impossible for me to enter REM sleep for a significant length of time (despite the fact that my subjective experience was that I was doing a lot of vivid dreaming). Just something to think about. BTW, for more info, there is a great site on sleep disorders called sleep forum..I'll look up the address and post it later.

 

Re: night terrors--Sleep info web site address

Posted by Noa on September 7, 1999, at 21:35:47

In reply to Re: night terrors, posted by Noa on September 7, 1999, at 21:21:03

This is the address for the sleepnet forums, where you will find lots of info on sleep disorders, and links to other sleep related sites. Good luck.

http://www.sleepnet.com/wwwboard/wwwboard.html

 

Re: Sleep Study Help For Noa

Posted by Susan on September 9, 1999, at 4:46:54

In reply to Re: night terrors--Sleep info web site address, posted by Noa on September 7, 1999, at 21:35:47

Was treatment recommended or did the sleep study only give you knowledge of what was happening during your sleep?

 

Re: Sleep Study Help For Noa

Posted by Noa on September 9, 1999, at 6:40:45

In reply to Re: Sleep Study Help For Noa, posted by Susan on September 9, 1999, at 4:46:54

> Was treatment recommended or did the sleep study only give you knowledge of what was happening during your sleep?

Treatment was definitely recommended for me. Actually, with apnea, it is common to have two sleep studies. In the first, they figure out what is going on. Mine revealed that I stopped breathing 267 times in the six hours I slept in the lab, an average of 42 times per hour. My oxygen saturation level went down significantly as well. The second sleep study is to see if a nasal cpap will help. Cpap is continuous positive airway pressure. Essentially it is a machine that blows air through a tube, and you wear a mask over your nose. The air acts like a "splint" to keep the airway open all night so you can breathe. In the second study, it is a trial to see what pressure of air you need with the cpap. They start at the lowest pressure, and slowly increase until the apnea events stop. The idea is to not give you more air pressure than you need. After the second study, I made arrangements to rent a cpap from a durable medical equipment provider.
For people who have problems other than obstructive apnea, I imagine that other types of treatment are recommended.

 

Re: Sleep Study Help For Noa

Posted by dj on September 10, 1999, at 12:55:29

In reply to Re: Sleep Study Help For Noa, posted by Noa on September 9, 1999, at 6:40:45

I note from the web site you cited that symptoms of sleep apnea include depression and the following:
Some Effects of OSA:

•loud snoring •morning headaches •chest pulls in during sleep in young children •high blood pressure •overweight, but not always •a dry mouth upon awakening •depression •difficulty concentrating •excessive perspiring during sleep •heartburn •reduced libido •insomnia •frequent trips to the bath room during the night •restless sleep •rapid weight gain

My question to you is which came first the apnea or the depression and is the treatment for the apnea and subsequent improved sleep helping you cope with the depression? Or are you too far advanced with all this to sort the wheat from the chaff??

> Treatment was definitely recommended for me. Actually, with apnea, it is common to have two sleep studies. In the first, they figure out what is going on. Mine revealed that I stopped breathing 267 times in the six hours I slept in the lab, an average of 42 times per hour.

 

Re: Sleep Study Help For Noa

Posted by Noa on September 10, 1999, at 16:49:13

In reply to Re: Sleep Study Help For Noa, posted by dj on September 10, 1999, at 12:55:29

Good questions, dj.

I think the depression predated the apnea for me, but I think the apnea exacerbated the depression. I KNOW it added some symptoms that I thought were from the depression but were really from the apnea, namely hypersomnolence, a fancy term for constant fatigue and sleepiness. Sure, the type of depression I have includes hypersomnia, meaning I sleep a lot. But being constantly exhausted and spending every weekend asleep day and night was due to the apnea, and as soon as the apnea was treated, this ceased. It was like suddenly having a lot more TIME in my life. Which was an adjustment. Waking up from several years of apnea related zombiness was wonderful and stressful, too, because all of a sudden I was facing time that was empty, and I was suddenly bored and wanting to be busy, but had let my life deteriorate so much. Now, with the depression, I often WANT to sleep more than I am able to. I sleep a normal amount at night, but often want to sleep during the day on weekends, just to escape the depression, but am not able to sleep like I used to. There is also a never ending circle in terms of weight gain, apnea and depression. Where the chicken and egg are, for either the fatigue or the weight issues, who knows.


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