![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 26. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by claudea on August 26, 1999, at 0:50:41
I was curious if anybody has ever attended a Landmark Forum? If so, was it beneficial? Also, what did you think of the application form asking about your mental condition, if you've ever been hospitalized, etc....and then says that they can deny your entrance to the seminar based upon how you answer the questions.
They didn't ask any other medical questions.Am I 'crazy' to think that questions like that are an insult or maybe even a no-no? I mean questions like that can't be asked on a job application. What right do they have to ask those questions. After all I am paying them to attend something.
Argh!!! I want to go, but am really put off by the application.
Posted by JohnL on August 26, 1999, at 3:28:29
In reply to Anybody ever attend the "Landmark Forum"?, posted by claudea on August 26, 1999, at 0:50:41
Claudia, what is the Landmark Forum? Never heard of it. As an instinctive guess it would seem they don't want any suicidals or untreated schizos or something like that to interrupt the show, or put them at risk of law suit? Just a hunch. If you have to pay to go, you can be sure they want your money, and they aren't likely to turn you away unless there is some kind of substantial risk in letting you in. Could be a sales hype gimmic too to make you feel special by just getting in. If you are already having doubts, based on the insulting application questions, maybe trust your gut feelings and let them take someone else's money. Like I said, I don't even know what this thing is, but your discomfort with it so far may be a clue of more disappointment after they take your money. JohnL.
Posted by Phil on August 26, 1999, at 6:48:26
In reply to Anybody ever attend the "Landmark Forum"?, posted by claudea on August 26, 1999, at 0:50:41
> I was curious if anybody has ever attended a Landmark Forum? If so, was it beneficial? Also, what did you think of the application form asking about your mental condition, if you've ever been hospitalized, etc....and then says that they can deny your entrance to the seminar based upon how you answer the questions.
> They didn't ask any other medical questions.
>
> Am I 'crazy' to think that questions like that are an insult or maybe even a no-no? I mean questions like that can't be asked on a job application. What right do they have to ask those questions. After all I am paying them to attend something.
>
> Argh!!! I want to go, but am really put off by the application.>>Claudea, I didn't know what the LF was either
so I did a quick search on Alta Vista. You might consider doing the same. I totally agree with JohnL, trust your gut instinct on this one.
Phil
Posted by dj on August 26, 1999, at 6:56:23
In reply to Anybody ever attend the "Landmark Forum"?, posted by claudea on August 26, 1999, at 0:50:41
The roots are the same as Context Associated
http://www.contextassociated.com/ and Lifestream though the approach and language may vary. The Forum was originally called est and headed up by Warner Erhard. In its early days it pushed some folks to the edge and beyond. Moderated since. Core concept is how we create our own reality by our actions and inactions -- karma.I haven't done the Forum though I know folks who have and have found it useful. Educational and non-therapeutic focus which is partially why they may have asked about mental condition. These type courses generallly stress that those under therapeutic care may not get full value if the are struggling with emotional and psych. challenges.
This sort of thing can be helpful but you need to make sure you are up to it and up to being deeply challenged to consider your patterns. I would do a search on the Net for more info. and also seek out some 'grads' who've been away from the program for a bit.
Posted by claudeah on August 26, 1999, at 17:54:52
In reply to Re: Anybody ever attend the "Landmark Forum"?, posted by dj on August 26, 1999, at 6:56:39
> The roots are the same as Context Associated
> http://www.contextassociated.com/ and Lifestream though the approach and language may vary. The Forum was originally called est and headed up by Warner Erhard. In its early days it pushed some folks to the edge and beyond. Moderated since. Core concept is how we create our own reality by our actions and inactions -- karma.
>
> I haven't done the Forum though I know folks who have and have found it useful. Educational and non-therapeutic focus which is partially why they may have asked about mental condition. These type courses generallly stress that those under therapeutic care may not get full value if the are struggling with emotional and psych. challenges.
>
> This sort of thing can be helpful but you need to make sure you are up to it and up to being deeply challenged to consider your patterns. I would do a search on the Net for more info. and also seek out some 'grads' who've been away from the program for a bit.I went to one of their introductory seminars on Wednesday night. And yes I did research it before I went to the intro. I do know about EST. I guess what really put me off was the form. I think the questions they were asking are an infringement on our rights---to privacy, ADA and who knows what else. There are no questions about illegal drugs or alchohol.
It sounds beneficial, but what I don't want my ADA rights to be violated.Ordinary folks off the street may not be 'stable' enough to handle it, so how can they judge us? I know plenty of 'normal' people that have been voted most likely to go postal and need help. I suppose I could like on the form, but than I wouldn't be honest with myself---then what is the point?
Posted by Yardena on August 26, 1999, at 18:16:12
In reply to Re: Anybody ever attend the "Landmark Forum"?, posted by claudeah on August 26, 1999, at 17:55:10
I personally would not recommend going. I have read studies that were written by "undercover" researchers and they found that Landmark and other such groups use a lot of brainwashing techniques. It involves a lot of social stress and peer pressure. People who agree with the leader are praised and people who disagree are booed down. Physical appearance and the ability to sell are the main criteria for choosing the leaders. They usually have no training as mental health professionals. They wear people's resistance to independent thinking down, albeit not as rapidly or "violently" as in the original EST, which kept people from eating, sleeping and going to the bathroom. It is more of the social pressure that has been shown in zillions of social psych experiments in which people are intimidated from thinking independently. After you do a seminar, you are then hooked in to sell for them, ie, get more people to come. It is essentially a psychological pyramid scheme, using manipulative tactics. Your ability to sell is linked with approval and confirmation of success. If you do not recruit new people, you are shamed as having not succeeded in your own self discovery process, etc. etc.
BE VERY CAREFUL!!!!!
Personally I think it would be a total waste of money.
Posted by Sean on August 27, 1999, at 10:54:26
In reply to Anybody ever attend the "Landmark Forum"?, posted by claudea on August 26, 1999, at 0:50:41
> I was curious if anybody has ever attended a Landmark Forum? If so, was it beneficial? Also, what did you think of the application form asking about your mental condition, if you've ever been hospitalized, etc....and then says that they can deny your entrance to the seminar based upon how you answer the questions.
> They didn't ask any other medical questions.
>
> Am I 'crazy' to think that questions like that are an insult or maybe even a no-no? I mean questions like that can't be asked on a job application. What right do they have to ask those questions. After all I am paying them to attend something.
>
> Argh!!! I want to go, but am really put off by the application.This is interesting; I went to college with Warner
Erhard's duaghter and have some interesting/gross
stories about that family. I will not tell them
here because frankly, I think it is possible
I could wind up in a law suit. I will only say
that the daughter (Adaire) was subjected to some rather
"unconventional" practices and that certain
"boundaries" were broken that most mental health
workers would consider inappropriate.All the same, I do recall a friend who went though
EST in the early 80's and seemed to get something
out of it. His mother then attended which
resulted in divorce from his father. Maybe this
was good, maybe not. I've always been suspicious
of all this group stuff though, so whatever. I
like psychobabble, my friends, p-doc, and
work hard in therapy. I just don't believe in
magic bullets or quick-fix concepts that will
heal our lives; this is complex stuff that takes
effort, learning about yourself, and hanging
in there through tough times.But then we all know that don't we...? Bye!
Sean.
Posted by dj on August 30, 1999, at 15:39:57
In reply to Re: Anybody ever attend the "Landmark Forum"?, posted by Sean on August 27, 1999, at 10:54:26
> This is interesting; I went to college with >Warner Erhard's duaghter and have some > interesting/gross stories about that family. I will > not tell them here because frankly, I think it is > possible I could wind up in a law suit. I will only > say that the daughter (Adaire) was subjected >to some rather "unconventional" practices and > that certain "boundaries" were broken that > most mental health workers would consider > inappropriate. ...
I believe that one of the TV news magazines reported a story about WE and incest with one of his daughters a few years back and that he fled the US and he is no longer associated with the Forum...
>. I just don't believe in
> magic bullets or quick-fix concepts that will
> heal our lives; this is complex stuff that takes
> effort, learning about yourself, and hanging
> in there through tough times.
>...
> Sean.Amen! Following is s a piece I came across in my e-mail discussing the content, intent, tone and some of the effects of the Forum and similar type 'trainings'. Make of it what you will.
> The Top 10 Concepts That Transformational Types May Need to Un-Learn In
> Order to Become Light, Natural and Spiritually-oriented.
>
> By "transformational type" I am referring to those who are heavily
> into est, Landmark Education/The Forum, Lifespring, and other
> transformational programs. As a part of their training/immersion, the
> following principles are often discussed, learned and assimilated. These
> principles are very useful and great ones, by themselves, but sometimes
> during the transformational process, the individual "becomes" these
> principles vs just enjoying/applying them. When this happens, the person
> uses these principles to self-define and direct their thinking, actions
> and life. As a result, the person can become inflexible, jargony,
> righteous and, sometimes, obnoxiously accurate. The reason I say
> "unlearn" in the title of this Top 10 List is because, when I used to
> coach, I found myself working with clients to deprogram or lighten them
> up about the following concepts that were running their lives and which
> had replaced the client's own natural "operating system." It was
> generally a case of too much of a good thing, like bamboo that looks
> great in a corner of your yard, but 5 years later, it IS your yard. And,
> as someone who's a recovered transformational type, you'll hear lots of
> righteousness in my words below, so be forewarned. Again, each concept
> is EXCELLENT and very useful; I'll just be describing its misuse or
> abuse.
>
> This piece was originally submitted by Thomas J. Leonard,
> Infopreneur, who can be reached at thomas@thomasleonard.com, or visited
> on the web at http://thomasleonard.com.
>
> 1. Commitment
> Commitment refers to how important something is to you. The
> trick is to look at a person's actions, not their words. Effective
> actions/results demonstrate commitment; words rarely do. Warning sign:
> When someone says, "I'm really committed to..." If they were truly
> committed, they wouldn't even talk about it. Demonstrate your
> commitment, don't talk about it. The alternative: Just do what you feel
> like doing and let your body/heart/spirit guide your actions; not your
> mind. Stated commitments come from the mind.
>
> 2. Enrollment
> This is the idea that you work with/stand with/discuss with a
> person and help them to get in touch with their commitment so that
> they'll buy something from you, either a product, service or concept.
> So, enrollment is generally a highly advanced form of selling or
> manipulation. It's a term commonly used by transformational types to
> describe how effective a person is in sales or as a catalyst of change.
> The problem is that one tends to want to excell at the skill of
> enrollment instead of simply being enrolling. And, how does one become
> enrolling without learning it like a skill? They simply are themselves,
> believe in what they do and stop trying to get others to get involved.
> Really! This is called the principle of Attraction and it's completely
> effortless. My view is that if you need to enroll someone, you're
> already on the wrong track because you're trying to get someone to do
> something rather than just doing what you do and attracting those folks
> who want to play/join you. The best form of enrollment (attraction) is
> virtually silent.
>
> 3. Reinvention
> Reinventing oneself is a popular theme in the transformation
> community. Yes, it's a great idea to improve, rethink, better, and
> develop oneself. Even to start over, from scratch. Even the idea of
> reinventing oneself, or one's company, is fabulous. But here's where it
> goes wrong. When the individual thinks that they NEED to reinvent
> themselves, the reinvention process becomes a creation vs an evolution.
> After all, where do you think one turns to when deciding how/what to
> reinvent themselves? You use your mind, which is the problem. Better to
> use intuition, spirit, your body to reinvent naturally vs "try" to
> reinvent. This also brings up another approach of how to change/grow
> yourself and it has to do with learning from and responding to your
> environment (in other words, the PRESENT) vs trying to create or change
> something through thinking or willpower.
>
> 4. Breakthrough
> In transformation arena, breakthroughs are good things. In fact,
> collecting as many has you can in our lifetime seems to be a goal or at
> least a measure of how effective, successful or wise one is. Personally,
> the term grates on me. I'm not really interested in breakthroughs; I'm
> interested in staying right where I am and learning from the present vs
> thinking I need to go outside of my comfort zone, become a different
> person or have a breakthrough. Please. The solution? Complete acceptance
> of who you are, who you aren't, who you'll never be, what you've done
> and not done, and what your strengths are and your weaknesses are.
> Better to enjoy your strengths vs having breakthroughs in the area of
> your weaknesses. Breakthroughs often give a false sense of
> accomplishment.
>
> 5. Make a difference
> This is a self-esteem mantra for many transformational types.
> Who cares? Live your life and if it makes a difference for others, then
> good for you and them. But, why orient your life around making a
> difference for others? Has a "better than others" flavor, doesn't it?
> And, if you're trying to make a difference, then it means that you and
> the other person haven't really accepted the present, right? Now, I
> think making a difference is a super thing and I enjoy watching how my
> work makes a difference for others. However, I don't define myself as
> someone whose job is to make a difference, nor do I measure my
> self-esteem or life worth by how often I make a difference for others. I
> say that true generosity occurs from selfishness, not in an attempt to
> make a difference. Why? Because if your needs are completely met, you'll
> find yourself naturally contributing to others by your life, not because
> you set out to make a difference. Yes, do you make a difference, but
> it's secondary to simply doing what you enjoy during your day.
>
> 6. Creating possibility; creating the future
> When a person is down and discouraged, they can probably use
> some possibility, as in hope, encouraging words, love and a conversation
> that has them see what's possible vs all of the bad stuff that surrounds
> them. And, yes, setting goals and creating a future is a good thing,
> too. So, what's off about this principle, especially when overused?
> What's off is that one relies on the notion of possibility and future as
> a way to escape the present. Rather than get the current message or
> lesson, they get busy creating a better future, without really having
> grown through what's facing them. The solution? Ask yourself why you
> need to set goals, create a future or get more possibility in your life.
> When you've gotten your answer, and made changes at that level, then
> creating a future will be a choice vs a medicant or way to escape from
> the present. I learned the traps/limitations of the future/goal setting
> in the late J. Krishnamurti's book, "The Book of Life." It ruined my
> life and I am so grateful!
>
> 7. Empowerment
> Empowerment is a fading term. It had to do with sharing your
> power with others or helping them to tap into their own power or source
> of power. So far, so good. But when you get the notion of strength vs
> power, all things related to power (empowerment, victory, winning,
> politics, enrollment, etc.) become distasteful, because you've found a
> more effective and fulfilling way to succeed (via strength, not power).
>
> 8. Being; way of being
> Transformational types usually learn to talk about one's "way of
> being" and consider this a term that others will understand and relate
> with. Most don't, and for good reason. Why? Because when you're trying
> to "be" more (as in be quieter and "doing" less), you're doing being,
> not being being. (That's not a typo.) Big difference. One's way of being
> comes from the inside, not from one's mind or attempts to "be" a
> different way. There's a whole field called ontology (study of being),
> which is quite interesting, but if you've ever met anyone who's into
> this, you'll find that they are heavy thinkers, not light/easy going
> be-ers. When you don't care how you're being, you're being. When you're
> trying to change how you are being, you're doing. Simple as that.
> Solution? Do what you want to do and you'll likely be being. Do what you
> should be doing and you'll be doing, not being.
>
> 9. Service
> Service is a super concept, as in customer service, being of
> service, serving the needs of your clients, etc. When you are serving,
> you are responding. So far so good. The rub, however, is that there's
> another notion called "adding value" which is eclipsing the notion of
> service. When you add value, you are proactively serving your clients or
> customers. With transformational types, the notion of giving complete
> service, while a good one, is waning in popularity and effectiveness,
> because adding value has more value in the market place than serving
> does. Solution? Continue to be of service, but become a master at adding
> value. You'll make a lot more money that way and attract stronger
> customers.
>
> 10. Integrity
> This one is tricky. Integrity, meaning that you are doing/have
> done the "right thing" for yourself and/or others, is a very helpful
> principle. However, it can also be used by your mind to keep you from
> growing, evolving and experimenting, given you don't want to be "out of
> integrity." Don't make Integrity the end all and be all of your
> existence. It's simply one aspect of a rich life. Transformational types
> end up sparring with themselves or each other about what the integrous
> thing to do is. Who knows what the integrous thing to do is, really? I
> suggest that you do what feels right to you right now and to do
> something different later if you're called to. Remember, integrity is
> just a skill that we are all developing, as we increase our awareness.
> Integrity will evolve for you over time. Behaviors that were out of
> integrity for you last year, may be quite in integrity this year and
> vice versa. Don't let integrity take over your life.
Posted by Sean on August 30, 1999, at 19:50:28
In reply to Flavour of "Landmark Forum" & W. Erhard..., posted by dj on August 30, 1999, at 15:39:57
> > This is interesting; I went to college with >Warner Erhard's duaghter and have some > interesting/gross stories about that family. I will > not tell them here because frankly, I think it is > possible I could wind up in a law suit. I will only > say that the daughter (Adaire) was subjected >to some rather "unconventional" practices and > that certain "boundaries" were broken that > most mental health workers would consider > inappropriate. ...
>
> I believe that one of the TV news magazines reported a story about WE and incest with one of his daughters a few years back and that he fled the US and he is no longer associated with the Forum...
>
Yep. Other gross things too.
> >. I just don't believe in
> > magic bullets or quick-fix concepts that will
> > heal our lives; this is complex stuff that takes
> > effort, learning about yourself, and hanging
> > in there through tough times.
> >...
> > Sean.
>
> Amen! Following is s a piece I came across in my e-mail discussing the content, intent, tone and some of the effects of the Forum and similar type 'trainings'. Make of it what you will.
>Well, I think about these qualities too, but if
you think about the "self", any attempt to construct
such a thing from the "outside in" is doomed to
failure in my opinion. My experience is
the people who show the most wisdom, compassion,
insight, and integrity spend the *least* amount
of time defining their self in any external way. I
think we can get wrapped up in conceptual models
of the psyche when things are rather more basic
than we'd like to admit. But try selling a book
about that...Sean.
>
> > The Top 10 Concepts That Transformational Types May Need to Un-Learn In
> > Order to Become Light, Natural and Spiritually-oriented.
> >
> > By "transformational type" I am referring to those who are heavily
> > into est, Landmark Education/The Forum, Lifespring, and other
> > transformational programs. As a part of their training/immersion, the
> > following principles are often discussed, learned and assimilated. These
> > principles are very useful and great ones, by themselves, but sometimes
> > during the transformational process, the individual "becomes" these
> > principles vs just enjoying/applying them. When this happens, the person
> > uses these principles to self-define and direct their thinking, actions
> > and life. As a result, the person can become inflexible, jargony,
> > righteous and, sometimes, obnoxiously accurate. The reason I say
> > "unlearn" in the title of this Top 10 List is because, when I used to
> > coach, I found myself working with clients to deprogram or lighten them
> > up about the following concepts that were running their lives and which
> > had replaced the client's own natural "operating system." It was
> > generally a case of too much of a good thing, like bamboo that looks
> > great in a corner of your yard, but 5 years later, it IS your yard. And,
> > as someone who's a recovered transformational type, you'll hear lots of
> > righteousness in my words below, so be forewarned. Again, each concept
> > is EXCELLENT and very useful; I'll just be describing its misuse or
> > abuse.
> >
> > This piece was originally submitted by Thomas J. Leonard,
> > Infopreneur, who can be reached at thomas@thomasleonard.com, or visited
> > on the web at http://thomasleonard.com.
> >
> > 1. Commitment
> > Commitment refers to how important something is to you. The
> > trick is to look at a person's actions, not their words. Effective
> > actions/results demonstrate commitment; words rarely do. Warning sign:
> > When someone says, "I'm really committed to..." If they were truly
> > committed, they wouldn't even talk about it. Demonstrate your
> > commitment, don't talk about it. The alternative: Just do what you feel
> > like doing and let your body/heart/spirit guide your actions; not your
> > mind. Stated commitments come from the mind.
> >
> > 2. Enrollment
> > This is the idea that you work with/stand with/discuss with a
> > person and help them to get in touch with their commitment so that
> > they'll buy something from you, either a product, service or concept.
> > So, enrollment is generally a highly advanced form of selling or
> > manipulation. It's a term commonly used by transformational types to
> > describe how effective a person is in sales or as a catalyst of change.
> > The problem is that one tends to want to excell at the skill of
> > enrollment instead of simply being enrolling. And, how does one become
> > enrolling without learning it like a skill? They simply are themselves,
> > believe in what they do and stop trying to get others to get involved.
> > Really! This is called the principle of Attraction and it's completely
> > effortless. My view is that if you need to enroll someone, you're
> > already on the wrong track because you're trying to get someone to do
> > something rather than just doing what you do and attracting those folks
> > who want to play/join you. The best form of enrollment (attraction) is
> > virtually silent.
> >
> > 3. Reinvention
> > Reinventing oneself is a popular theme in the transformation
> > community. Yes, it's a great idea to improve, rethink, better, and
> > develop oneself. Even to start over, from scratch. Even the idea of
> > reinventing oneself, or one's company, is fabulous. But here's where it
> > goes wrong. When the individual thinks that they NEED to reinvent
> > themselves, the reinvention process becomes a creation vs an evolution.
> > After all, where do you think one turns to when deciding how/what to
> > reinvent themselves? You use your mind, which is the problem. Better to
> > use intuition, spirit, your body to reinvent naturally vs "try" to
> > reinvent. This also brings up another approach of how to change/grow
> > yourself and it has to do with learning from and responding to your
> > environment (in other words, the PRESENT) vs trying to create or change
> > something through thinking or willpower.
> >
> > 4. Breakthrough
> > In transformation arena, breakthroughs are good things. In fact,
> > collecting as many has you can in our lifetime seems to be a goal or at
> > least a measure of how effective, successful or wise one is. Personally,
> > the term grates on me. I'm not really interested in breakthroughs; I'm
> > interested in staying right where I am and learning from the present vs
> > thinking I need to go outside of my comfort zone, become a different
> > person or have a breakthrough. Please. The solution? Complete acceptance
> > of who you are, who you aren't, who you'll never be, what you've done
> > and not done, and what your strengths are and your weaknesses are.
> > Better to enjoy your strengths vs having breakthroughs in the area of
> > your weaknesses. Breakthroughs often give a false sense of
> > accomplishment.
> >
> > 5. Make a difference
> > This is a self-esteem mantra for many transformational types.
> > Who cares? Live your life and if it makes a difference for others, then
> > good for you and them. But, why orient your life around making a
> > difference for others? Has a "better than others" flavor, doesn't it?
> > And, if you're trying to make a difference, then it means that you and
> > the other person haven't really accepted the present, right? Now, I
> > think making a difference is a super thing and I enjoy watching how my
> > work makes a difference for others. However, I don't define myself as
> > someone whose job is to make a difference, nor do I measure my
> > self-esteem or life worth by how often I make a difference for others. I
> > say that true generosity occurs from selfishness, not in an attempt to
> > make a difference. Why? Because if your needs are completely met, you'll
> > find yourself naturally contributing to others by your life, not because
> > you set out to make a difference. Yes, do you make a difference, but
> > it's secondary to simply doing what you enjoy during your day.
> >
> > 6. Creating possibility; creating the future
> > When a person is down and discouraged, they can probably use
> > some possibility, as in hope, encouraging words, love and a conversation
> > that has them see what's possible vs all of the bad stuff that surrounds
> > them. And, yes, setting goals and creating a future is a good thing,
> > too. So, what's off about this principle, especially when overused?
> > What's off is that one relies on the notion of possibility and future as
> > a way to escape the present. Rather than get the current message or
> > lesson, they get busy creating a better future, without really having
> > grown through what's facing them. The solution? Ask yourself why you
> > need to set goals, create a future or get more possibility in your life.
> > When you've gotten your answer, and made changes at that level, then
> > creating a future will be a choice vs a medicant or way to escape from
> > the present. I learned the traps/limitations of the future/goal setting
> > in the late J. Krishnamurti's book, "The Book of Life." It ruined my
> > life and I am so grateful!
> >
> > 7. Empowerment
> > Empowerment is a fading term. It had to do with sharing your
> > power with others or helping them to tap into their own power or source
> > of power. So far, so good. But when you get the notion of strength vs
> > power, all things related to power (empowerment, victory, winning,
> > politics, enrollment, etc.) become distasteful, because you've found a
> > more effective and fulfilling way to succeed (via strength, not power).
> >
> > 8. Being; way of being
> > Transformational types usually learn to talk about one's "way of
> > being" and consider this a term that others will understand and relate
> > with. Most don't, and for good reason. Why? Because when you're trying
> > to "be" more (as in be quieter and "doing" less), you're doing being,
> > not being being. (That's not a typo.) Big difference. One's way of being
> > comes from the inside, not from one's mind or attempts to "be" a
> > different way. There's a whole field called ontology (study of being),
> > which is quite interesting, but if you've ever met anyone who's into
> > this, you'll find that they are heavy thinkers, not light/easy going
> > be-ers. When you don't care how you're being, you're being. When you're
> > trying to change how you are being, you're doing. Simple as that.
> > Solution? Do what you want to do and you'll likely be being. Do what you
> > should be doing and you'll be doing, not being.
> >
> > 9. Service
> > Service is a super concept, as in customer service, being of
> > service, serving the needs of your clients, etc. When you are serving,
> > you are responding. So far so good. The rub, however, is that there's
> > another notion called "adding value" which is eclipsing the notion of
> > service. When you add value, you are proactively serving your clients or
> > customers. With transformational types, the notion of giving complete
> > service, while a good one, is waning in popularity and effectiveness,
> > because adding value has more value in the market place than serving
> > does. Solution? Continue to be of service, but become a master at adding
> > value. You'll make a lot more money that way and attract stronger
> > customers.
> >
> > 10. Integrity
> > This one is tricky. Integrity, meaning that you are doing/have
> > done the "right thing" for yourself and/or others, is a very helpful
> > principle. However, it can also be used by your mind to keep you from
> > growing, evolving and experimenting, given you don't want to be "out of
> > integrity." Don't make Integrity the end all and be all of your
> > existence. It's simply one aspect of a rich life. Transformational types
> > end up sparring with themselves or each other about what the integrous
> > thing to do is. Who knows what the integrous thing to do is, really? I
> > suggest that you do what feels right to you right now and to do
> > something different later if you're called to. Remember, integrity is
> > just a skill that we are all developing, as we increase our awareness.
> > Integrity will evolve for you over time. Behaviors that were out of
> > integrity for you last year, may be quite in integrity this year and
> > vice versa. Don't let integrity take over your life.
Posted by Adam on September 4, 1999, at 19:47:10
In reply to Anybody ever attend the "Landmark Forum"?, posted by claudea on August 26, 1999, at 0:50:41
One of my roommates participated in "The Forum" and had some
interesting things to say about it. Initially she was pleased
by the Forum, and thought some of what they had to say was
helpful to her in getting out of a rut she had been in for
quite some time. However, as the weeks passed, the law of
deminishing marginal returns started to kick in, and she was
less and less enthusiastic about continuing with Landmark's
followup courses. The response was creepy. As soon as she
made the decision public, that she was not going to move on
to an extension of the course (which involved completing some
sort of project), the phone calls started. Various people
from Landmark including her mentor and other participants in
her course kept contacting her and trying to convince her that
she should continue. They were persistant to the point of
aburditiy. They made suggestions along that lines that her
choosing to "quit" at that point was suggestive of a lifelong
pattern of "quitting", and that if she was ever going to get
"better" she had to break this cycle of unhealthy behavior,
etc., etc. She was so irritated after a while she started
telling people flat out to not call her ever again. She
felt like she was being hounded by a cult or something. I
thought the whole thing was bizarre. I witnessed the
incessant phone calls first hand, and I have to say I am
highly suspicious of Lanmark and their practices. I suspect
what they have is a somewhat addictive program where fragile
initiates are persuaded through methods subtle and not-so-
subtle to continue their involvement in the Forum indefinitely.
One ascends the ladder, so to speak, through their
participation, becoming more fluent in Landmark Jargon (and
they have a whole other lexicon, folks...may favorite term is
"racket" which you are accused of running every time you
make statements that are percieved as being subversive), more
prominent in Landmark Educations "community", more responsible
for future Forums. For some, the Forum becomes their life. I
am not exaggerating. I guess I would feel better about the
whole thing except you have to _pay_ for it. To me it seems
like tithing.I would research these guys well before giving them one cent
or your money. It's friendship for a price, and lots of
platitudes you can find in any second-rate self-help book.
Posted by Danny on September 5, 1999, at 1:57:52
In reply to Anybody ever attend the "Landmark Forum"?, posted by claudea on August 26, 1999, at 0:50:41
I attended an EST (Landmark's predecessor) seminar in the late '70's, which was essentially a kind of group therapy with a very large group. I don't know how much it has changed, but I found it moderately useful. The message at that time was that you take as much responsibility for yourself and your situation as possible, which in turn gave you the power to change it. Pretty simple. The process could be confrontational at times and I assume they don't want people to come completely unglued, psychotic, violent or whatever. I don't remember any form - there may have been one - but this is the age of lawsuits. I would not take too much offense at the questions. My inclination in these situations is to lie about mental illness, hospitalization etc. Unless your trying to buy an assault weapon, it's nobody's business. Best of luck.
> I was curious if anybody has ever attended a Landmark Forum? If so, was it beneficial? Also, what did you think of the application form asking about your mental condition, if you've ever been hospitalized, etc....and then says that they can deny your entrance to the seminar based upon how you answer the questions.
> They didn't ask any other medical questions.
>
> Am I 'crazy' to think that questions like that are an insult or maybe even a no-no? I mean questions like that can't be asked on a job application. What right do they have to ask those questions. After all I am paying them to attend something.
>
> Argh!!! I want to go, but am really put off by the application.
Posted by claudea on September 5, 1999, at 21:32:29
In reply to Anybody ever attend the "Landmark Forum"?, posted by claudea on August 26, 1999, at 0:50:41
Thanks for all of your input everyone.
I am still undecided, because I have heard both good and bad things about it. But they called me at work to see if I was going to sign up for the forum and I told them that I was undecided. The person asked why and I said because of page 4 of their form. She didn't know what I was talking about so she transfered me to the Registrar, who seemed real pissed and confrontational. I asked him to calm down because I just wanted to ask a simple question---why did they need the mental health info. I told him that I could lie and put no to everything, but that would partially defeat the purpose of the forum which is to be honest with yourself.
After awhile of fishing for reasons why I had to fill it out he said that their mental health professionals advised them that it was required by law. I asked him if he could cite the law for me so I could look it up (all the while using the same voice I use when I negotiate contracts at work and he kept getting more aggravated.) He said that I could call their HQ. I told him that I don't think work would appreciate me calling San Fransisco. So after calling his HQ, he called me and told me that I made him learn something----there is NO law requiring them to ask. He was very controntainal, lost his cool a number of times and even accused me of writing everything down so I could sue them. I wasn't writing anything down, but boy was his paranoia showing through.
It strange though, I still kinda want to attend because I too, feel I am in a rut.
Argh!!
Claudea :)
Posted by Noa on September 6, 1999, at 7:53:47
In reply to Still undecided, posted by claudea on September 5, 1999, at 21:32:29
Claudia, You ended your post with:
> It strange though, I still kinda want to attend because I too, feel I am in a rut.
You feel you are in a rut, and want something to get you out of it. And you think this Landmark Forum will be "it". But your post indicates that you are uncomfortable with the signals you are getting from them... are you ignoring your own intuition?
Posted by Noa on September 6, 1999, at 8:01:24
In reply to Re: Anybody ever attend the "Landmark Forum"?, posted by Danny on September 5, 1999, at 1:57:52
Claudia,
PS...I scrolled back and read through the previous posts in response to your first question. To me, it seems most of the responses shed negative light on LF.Reread John's post ,the first response, in which he tells you to trust your gut. I agree.
Posted by Yardena on September 6, 1999, at 8:06:25
In reply to Still undecided, posted by claudea on September 5, 1999, at 21:32:29
Claudia, I agree with John and Noa about trusting your instincts, which you don't seem to be doing. However, maybe you are someone who needs to see for yourself, learn by experience, etc. Just keep in mind that LF is all about the money, they are always selling you something, and right now it is the idea that they will give you some magic to get you out of your rut.
Another idea is to brainstorm alternative ways to spend the LF tuition money that also might get you out of your rut. Ask people for ideas. Write them all down. Think about it. Then, if you decide the LF is the way to go, you can still do it. They hold seminars all the time.
Posted by claudea on September 6, 1999, at 15:52:33
In reply to Re: Still undecided, posted by Yardena on September 6, 1999, at 8:06:25
> Another idea is to brainstorm alternative ways to spend the LF tuition money that also might get you out of your rut. Ask people for ideas. Write them all down. Think about it.
In January I tried to get out of my rut(and escape the Chicago snow) by taking a spur of the moment trip to Paris--bought ticket on Tuesday, left on Thursday. It helped for awhile--increased self-confidence, especially since I don't speak French and went by myself. It didn't help me get out of the rut feeling--and neither did Rome in April (another spur of the moment)--but it up red flags for my therapist and doc!!!I don't know--I am going to go with the instinct and not go--heck the way airfare's are going that's airfare and hotel to London. But I feel like I am standing still and life is passing me by in the express lanes.
Then again, maybe I'm just depressed and looking for a quick fix as someone said.
sigh....
Claudea
Posted by Janice on September 6, 1999, at 19:15:57
In reply to Decided--about one thing at least, posted by claudea on September 6, 1999, at 15:52:33
> Claudea darling, don't do it. This reminds me of that Woody Allen's line saying he 'wouldn't want to belong to any club that would have him'. Ironically here, you seem to want to belong to some club that doesn't want you, and the club sounds like the crazy one to me.
Everyone who has any experience with them generally seems to post negative things about them.I like Yardena's idea about spending the money on some other way to get out of your rut. Janice
Posted by Ingrid on August 14, 2000, at 7:05:27
In reply to Re: Anybody ever attend the , posted by JohnL on August 26, 1999, at 3:28:29
OK look. I just finished the Landmark Forum. People have no right to be posting criticism of the program who haven't done it!! It's not a quick fix AT ALL. It's simply a way of dealing with the life you have and making it rich and whole. No hypnotic suggestions or hand holding.If they didn't ask the questions about mental health then people who are ill would be attending a very personal and emotional seminar and possibly damaging themselves. You go through SO much emotion and sharing, and it would've ruined it for me, frankly if any mentally ill people were sharing and not getting the real benefit. You need to be at least mentally well in order to begin to heal your life from a psychological standpoint. Otheriwse you have no business being there, you should be in therepy. I'm not saying it's not ok to be mentally ill, but LF is not the place to get better. By the way, it changed my life and I would DEFINITLY recommend it if youre in a rut. (I am professional and very well adjusted by the way)I'm not a touchy-feely person, but this changed my life. Don't waste your money on a quick fix, change your life
Posted by claudeah on August 14, 2000, at 22:47:20
In reply to Re: Anybody ever attend the Landmark Forum?, posted by Ingrid on August 14, 2000, at 7:05:27
Dear Ingrid,
As you have stated that 'people have no right to be posting criticism(sic) of the program who havent' done it', likewise you should not be criticizing those who are mentally ill. You state, also, that you are a "professional and very well adjusted...." Well, I too am a professional, own a condo, pay a car note and guess what-----I am mentally ill!
I attended an introduction to the 'Forum' on my own because I felt I was in a rut. I found them, noone brought me, which actually surprized the Forum people. I was interested in attending the Forum and was even ready to write out a check to attend, when I read the question about mental health. I feel that since that was the only question they asked about health (none about heart disease or any other health problem that can be affected by stress)it was a violation of my privacy and doctor-patient confidentiality. I was appalled. I did discuss it with my therapist and pdoc and they saw no reason why I should not attend. I just felt insulted. It was none of their business if I was ever hospitalized for a mental illness---employers, schools and other organizations aren't allowed to ask those questions. And then THEY decide whether or not you get to attend, sounds like discrimination and in violation of the ADA to me. I told them (the Forum) that I could have lied and answered no to those questions, but then that would have been going against the whole purpose of the Forum---being honest to yourself. I mean, gee, by all accounts and people who meet me and find out I am bipolar---they think I am 'normal' (whatever that is) and would have never guessed I had a mental illness.
Well I felt that I was being honest to myself by not attending becuase of their insulting, and on the verge of illegal, questions concerning mental health. My questions to them were--what about the people who lied on the form, or did not know they were mentally ill? How do YOU KNOW there wasn't someone in your group who was mentally ill? How arragont!
I hope that in the course of your life, Ingrid, you never have to deal with a mental illness or, heaven forbid, be involved with a person who does.
And by the way, what brought you to this site anyway?
> OK look. I just finished the Landmark Forum. People have no right to be posting criticism of the program who haven't done it!! It's not a quick fix AT ALL. It's simply a way of dealing with the life you have and making it rich and whole. No hypnotic suggestions or hand holding.If they didn't ask the questions about mental health then people who are ill would be attending a very personal and emotional seminar and possibly damaging themselves. You go through SO much emotion and sharing, and it would've ruined it for me, frankly if any mentally ill people were sharing and not getting the real benefit. You need to be at least mentally well in order to begin to heal your life from a psychological standpoint. Otheriwse you have no business being there, you should be in therepy. I'm not saying it's not ok to be mentally ill, but LF is not the place to get better. By the way, it changed my life and I would DEFINITLY recommend it if youre in a rut. (I am professional and very well adjusted by the way)I'm not a touchy-feely person, but this changed my life. Don't waste your money on a quick fix, change your life
Posted by smoky on August 15, 2000, at 14:34:33
In reply to Re: Decided--about one thing at least, posted by Janice on September 6, 1999, at 19:15:57
I was recently invited to go support a graduate of the Landmark Forum a week ago. And I, of course was given a sales pitch. I took it and signed up for a forum in October and I am now starting to have doubts about going. Part of the reason why I went was to support my friends who graduated, but the main reasons were to succomb to my curiousity and to know whether I can have the same influences my friends had.
I believe that I am fair-minded, but I do know that power of excitement can be so infectious that it drew me to sign up. The next days after it, I started to have doubts, wondering how long this will last and how far must I go with the seminars to feel complete. My friends have gladly signed up for the advance courses and I wonder what goes on in their minds that they feel the need to do more than what the main Forum has already suggested.
I then remembered an old friend of mine who attended the PSI programs (which I assume contain the same agenda). I met her years after she attended and graduated from the program. She told me stories and all the positive reinforcements she received from them, but their teachings didn't seem to affect her decisions or choices (I heard the importance of knowing the difference between decisions and choices). She still seemed lost and lacked the confidence that PSI tried to instill in her.
Don't we all acquire these teachings eventually through experience? After all experience seems to always have more bearing on our lives more than what we read or hear about what lives should be.
I'm not trying to knock the Landmark Forum because it has done the people I know some good. But now I wonder what really drew me to go. I think it's the feeling of being left out of something. Is that really a good reason?
Posted by noa on August 16, 2000, at 14:37:52
In reply to Should I attend?, posted by smoky on August 15, 2000, at 14:34:33
Landmark Forum is formerly EST, I believe, the name having been changed because of bad publicity in the 80s.
I can't say whether such a program is a good idea for you, but I know that I had friends who were involved in a similar one called Lifespring(it had been referred to as the "gentle EST") , and they were caught up in a sort of pyramid sales scheme. It is run by salespeople, not professionals in psychology. It consumed their lives and their friendships with non-participants really suffered, because they were constantly trying to sell us on the idea.
Years ago I read an article on it, and the participant observers who wrote the article, for a respected journal, said it was based mostly on peer pressure to agree with the facilitators. People who disagreed were shamed.
I don't know if this is the same article, but perhaps you might like to read this one, citation from pubmed below.
BTW, after a few years went by, my friends recontacted me and resumed the friendship, apologizing for how they acted while involved in Lifespring.
Also, BTW, I believe in the late 80s and early ninties, Lifespring was in the news because of law suits. This may be why such programs ask about mental illness on the application.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=6622602&dopt=Abstract
Posted by smoky on August 17, 2000, at 14:50:39
In reply to Re: Should I attend?, posted by noa on August 16, 2000, at 14:37:52
> Landmark Forum is formerly EST, I believe, the name having been changed because of bad publicity in the 80s.
>
> I can't say whether such a program is a good idea for you, but I know that I had friends who were involved in a similar one called Lifespring(it had been referred to as the "gentle EST") , and they were caught up in a sort of pyramid sales scheme. It is run by salespeople, not professionals in psychology. It consumed their lives and their friendships with non-participants really suffered, because they were constantly trying to sell us on the idea.
>
> Years ago I read an article on it, and the participant observers who wrote the article, for a respected journal, said it was based mostly on peer pressure to agree with the facilitators. People who disagreed were shamed.
>
> I don't know if this is the same article, but perhaps you might like to read this one, citation from pubmed below.
>
> BTW, after a few years went by, my friends recontacted me and resumed the friendship, apologizing for how they acted while involved in Lifespring.
>
> Also, BTW, I believe in the late 80s and early ninties, Lifespring was in the news because of law suits. This may be why such programs ask about mental illness on the application.
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=6622602&dopt=AbstractMy friends noted that this is also a branch of EST. I could see that part of it is peer pressure, but of course if I asked my friends whether they felt pressured to do it would they agree or are they really going this whole heartedly? I know some have already spent over a thousand dollars on additional courses. I think that's what makes me sort of leary about the whole thing.
Posted by noa on August 17, 2000, at 15:55:24
In reply to Re: Should I attend?, posted by smoky on August 17, 2000, at 14:50:39
> I know some have already spent over a thousand dollars on additional courses.
Yes, it is primarily a business, not a service.
> I think that's what makes me sort of leary about the whole thing.
And what is interesting, is that often, when a person expresses such reservations, they are told that it is precisely those fears they need to face, and the program will enable them to do it.
Like I said, I can't say what is best for others, and there certainly have been people posting here who say positive things about their experiences. But, Personally, those kinds of tactics really turn me off.
Posted by Ingrid on September 10, 2000, at 22:53:35
In reply to Re: Anybody ever attend the Landmark Forum?, posted by Ingrid on August 14, 2000, at 7:05:27
You've got me ALL wrong! First of all, I take back everything I said about the Forum. I think it's a bunch of crooks trying to make money off of people when they're down. I have read a lot of research and discovered how unethical they are (not to mention seen it myself).
As far as mental illness, I don't care if people are mentally ill...I don't care if you're taking medications, I don't think there should be stigma around it. TRUST ME. I'm saying that the forum is a very intensive seminar and I do NOT think mentally ill people should attend. It would not be good for you. Now if you're talking about mild depression or even manic depression, I'm sure it would be fine. If a person was seriously ill...i think it would be harmful. I've read stories of people who ended up in the psych ward afterwards who blame the Forum totally. How can you call me arrogant anyway?? You don't know me, and you obviously didn't read my post very carefully. People are so damn politically correct you can't say anything anymore. It seems to me that you're a bit too sensitive. Besides, why the heck would you want to go to the Forumm anyway if they discriminate???
Posted by Martin777 on May 8, 2003, at 3:21:46
In reply to Re: Anybody ever attend the , posted by Adam on September 4, 1999, at 19:47:10
I've done the whole curriculum for living: The landmark Forum, the Advanced Course, and The Self Expression and Leadership Course. I don't know exactly how I ended on this site, but I found it and I would like to clear up a few things. The curriculum is the study of what it is to be human. They do make you sign some paperwork where you are asked if you have any mental illness and the purpose of it is because the curriculum is not a substitute for theraphy and it should not be considered theraphy. During the forum you look at things about yourself such as fixed ways of being and it can be very unconfortable for some people and therefore if you have mental problems, it's recommended that you don't do it if you don't think that you can handle looking at parts of your past and completing with them once and for all so that they don't impact and affect who you are now and what you do or don't do in the future. The whole curriculum is extremely difficult to explain but It's worth more than any college education. Most of it is in the form of distinctions. for example, in the forum I learned the distiction "Strong Suit" mine are, being adaptable, Keeping people at a distance as in not letting myself fully love them, and always trying to be the best and have everyone know it. All three are a result of events in my past. the forum gives you access to such information in which your view of life transforms because you get to see things from a different perspective where there is total clarity. In the advance course, I learned that my "act" or who I really thought I was was a victim and that I held that in place to avoid being cause in the matter of my life. In the Self expression and leadership course, I learned where I'm stopped. In the advance course you get to give up your act and you learn to invent new possibilites for yourself and your life which can be described as stopping your journey, taking a look at all the luggage that you've accumulated during your life, you get to empty the luggage and you replace what was there with possibilites. You also do a community project which calls you to play a big game in your life and really see where you are not being you possibility. I'm a coach in my second SELP right now and to be completely honest, I would not be here writting if it wasn't for this education. I would not have survived my bankruptcy, divorce, loosing my business, and my home. All those things happened less than two years ago and I can honestly say that I love my life more now than ever. I'm clear. I know what matters and what's important. I'm here in this world to make a difference. I hope this helps to clarify some past posts. You can learn more about it at www.landmarkeducation.com
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