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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 13 of 13. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Toby on August 28, 1999, at 22:19:15
Dows anyone have experience with ECT? I am going through meds from a to z, and just want to chart the options...
Posted by quilter on August 31, 1999, at 0:51:36
In reply to ECT?, posted by Toby on August 28, 1999, at 22:19:15
> Dows anyone have experience with ECT? I am going through meds from a to z, and just want to chart the options...
I had several series of ect treatments in the mid 1980's. Bilateral placement was used. The first series of 9(?) was quite helpful in relieving the severe depression. Had about 6 months before I crashed again. Next series were much less helpful and intensified the memory loss that had begun the first time around. still have holes in my memory of past events, and difficulty with short term memory as well. When I was urged to try this again with the new equipment and techniques, I told them that I now had information I wanted to keep, and declined the suggestion. Finding new med regimes is difficult. I haven't been medication free in more than 16 years. Remissions have been few and far between but the current ones are working with (so far) bearable side effects. Currently taking 375mgs of Effexor, 30mgs celexa, 25mcg. Cytomel, 20 mgs Flexeril, 1.5 mgs lorazapam, and 5 mgs of Ambien. I also have fibromyalgia and need to take fairly high doses of Ibuprofen when that flairs up. Skin problems, weight gain, and irritable bowel are the main side effects as well as some daytime sleepiness. also some trouble with vision. Still the best I've felt in almost two years.
Posted by Thumper on August 31, 1999, at 18:19:02
In reply to ECT?, posted by Toby on August 28, 1999, at 22:19:15
I have no experience with ECT, but just finished a good auto-bio which has a lot of good info regarding that topic. It's called Undercurrents -A Life Beneath the Surface by Martha Manning. It was very interesting and a quick read. Martha is a psychologist who suffers from depression.
Posted by Ruth on August 31, 1999, at 21:12:47
In reply to ECT?, posted by Toby on August 28, 1999, at 22:19:15
I had two series of ECT a year apart. I had it because of the seriousness of my depression and the fact that I had failed multiple medication trials (a to z +). IT is hard to have perspective on it. My experience is somewhat similar to what was described. It was effective, then I relapsed and my response the second time was not as significant and so they went to bi-lateral treatments which left me with significant cognitive impairment in the areas of long term memory and retaining new info.
The treatments themselvesl were not a problem, but the aftermath has been. My doctor believes that the memory loss should improve and that it may not be a consequence of the ECT but of the depression itself, perhaps in almost a post traumatic stress sense. He also feels that given the depth of the depression there was little choice.
I guess my feeling at this point is that I would recommend you try meds from a to z and back again before trying ECT. I would want to get a consult from a psychopharmacologist ideally whose expertise is specifically in treatment resistent depression. If not at least someone who is current (I'd try someone in or affiliated with a med school if you have one near you)
Let me know if you have more questions.Dows anyone have experience with ECT? I am going through meds from a to z, and just want to chart the options...
Posted by Ian on September 1, 1999, at 14:44:52
In reply to Re: ECT?, posted by Ruth on August 31, 1999, at 21:12:47
I've not had ECT but having read Toxic Psychiatry, Drugs and ECT by Peter Breggin I would not recommend its use to anyone. He makes reference to a neurologists conclusion about autopsies on people in the 50s who had receieved multiple rounds of ECT. He concludes that the effects on the brain resemble changes of punch drunk boxing veterans with microvascular haemorrhages and scarring. The only difference between todays ECT and earlier ECT is that because of the use of muscle relaxants, higher currents can be used. Sure ECT will probably get you out of a suicidal cognitive cycle but so would being KO'd by Mike Tyson
I recommend you check out http://www.breggin.com
Posted by yardena on September 1, 1999, at 18:30:21
In reply to Re: ECT?, posted by Ian on September 1, 1999, at 14:44:52
Keep in mind that Breggin is anti a lot of psychopharm too.
Posted by David K. on September 1, 1999, at 21:16:28
In reply to ECT?, posted by Toby on August 28, 1999, at 22:19:15
> Dows anyone have experience with ECT? I am going
through meds from a to z, and just want to chart
the options...I don't have any experience, Toby. I've been on
six different meds for major depression. Some
worked. Some didn't. The ones that worked had side
effects. Getting really tired of med roulette.Tomorrow, I am going to a pdoc to discuss the
possibility of ECT. I've been scouring the web for
the past couple of months in search of info it it.
I've got quite a few links I could give you if you
are interested.
Posted by Michael on September 3, 1999, at 22:09:00
In reply to Re: ECT?, posted by David K. on September 1, 1999, at 21:16:28
> > Dows anyone have experience with ECT? I am going
> through meds from a to z, and just want to chart
> the options...
>
> I don't have any experience, Toby. I've been on
> six different meds for major depression. Some
> worked. Some didn't. The ones that worked had sideI had bilateral ECT in 1993 after much touting by my doctor at that time. Since I went off all medication during the treatments, I wound up depressed, with impaired memory (still hasn't returned), and possibly impaired brain function (I'm not sure about this, I might have been stupid to begin with). My recommendation is, unless you are on the verge of suicide, keep trying the meds.
> effects. Getting really tired of med roulette.
>
> Tomorrow, I am going to a pdoc to discuss the
> possibility of ECT. I've been scouring the web for
> the past couple of months in search of info it it.
> I've got quite a few links I could give you if you
> are interested.
Posted by Adam on September 5, 1999, at 15:30:17
In reply to ECT?, posted by Toby on August 28, 1999, at 22:19:15
I've had one round of ECT. It worked great but the effects didn't last and I think it had long-lasting
effects on my memory as well. It's a treatment of last resort. Absolute last resort. I won't do it again,
no matter how bad I get.> Dows anyone have experience with ECT? I am going through meds from a to z, and just want to chart the options...
Posted by donald on September 6, 1999, at 2:44:57
In reply to Re: ECT?--Breggin, posted by yardena on September 1, 1999, at 18:30:21
> Keep in mind that Breggin is anti a lot of psychopharm too.
I had 7 ECT treatments in April 1998. I had been hospitalized at Friends Hospital in Philadelphia. They have a support group for ECT patients there. I found that it was helpful. Some people go in for monthly ECT treatments rather than taking meds.
I struggled with the treatment because the anesthesia made me nauseas. They finally gave me an anesthetic that was less prone to cause this problem. I had to advocate for it. You also do not want treatments more frequently than every other day. Daily treatments can increase chance of memory problems. It did not effect my memory. I do have short term memory problems. This has been an issue since prior to the ECT treatments. They started me on Parnate after the treatments and this seems to have kept the depression at bay.
I was not thrilled aboutthe treatment but felt that it was preferable to continued depression. That is the worst for me. I also have a family and a lot of responsibility. The ECT and medication enabled me to resume a normallife that continues to this day.
You might want to check into the support group at Freinds Hospital in Philadelphia for assistance.
Depression is no fun. You have to cope with a lot of discomfort and inconvenience. it is sort of like being a cancer patient. Just take it one day at a time and keep researching. I continue to hope that someday soon, there will be some new and more effective treatments for those of us who have difficult to treat conditions.
Posted by Afraid to give my name on September 6, 1999, at 13:09:02
In reply to Re: ECT?--Breggin, posted by donald on September 6, 1999, at 2:44:57
I'm with the rest: ECT is a last resort. Use it the way you'd use psychosurgery: only when every other option has failed - TWICE!
In the meantime, has your p-doc gone over your physical history? Depression is a fellow-traveler with so many physical conditions, that your body may be contributing to it. Do you crave sugar? Carbohydrates? Get nauseous from the idea of eating solid food? Do you feel logy? Does your mood change predictably at certain times of the day? Do you notice a clicking sound in your joints? Do you get a lot of cramps? All of those symptoms can go along with conditions that can worsen depression. Have you had your thyroid functioning checked? Do it.
It's like a bad joke, but the best thing you can start on your own for depression is to eat regularly and well, exercise regularly, get adequate sleep, basically take better care of yourself than any 'normal' person does! Just a little to ask, since I know when I'm badly depressed I can hardly choke down a glass of water, let alone a meal.
Before you go for the ECT, test your blood sugar for two weeks as though you were a diabetic (meaning: at least 8 times a day, at the same times). Get that thyroid test. Get a complete blood count, and be tested for trace nutrient levels. Get a long glucose tolerance test. If all that comes in normal, and I do mean in the exact center of the range, then go get liver and kidney function tests. Get a bone scan. Make damn sure that this isn't a problem because of something the doctor has overlooked in your body. Remember, you can always have the ECT later, but you can't ever undo it.
And if a shock is all it takes, wait until you see the bills for those tests ;-)
Good luck and God bless
Posted by Bob (not Dr.) on September 7, 1999, at 9:18:04
In reply to Have you had your physical self checked?, posted by Afraid to give my name on September 6, 1999, at 13:09:02
I'm with Afraid on several points. One is looking
into dietary issues in the first place. This has
been as big a struggle for me as dealing with my
depression--giving up all that stuff that tastes
sooooooooo good but still messes with my mind.
I have to question just how effective my meds
can be when I'm drinking 2+ liters of diet coke
a day and sneaking starbursts and other candies
along the way as well.Another great point is the rest of the "bad joke".
When I first started on meds (zoloft), I was going
through quite a roller coaster that first month or
so. I was at 100 mg Zoloft/day then, and I went in
to my doc to ask, no, beg for an increase to 150.
He told me to start seeing my therapist more often,
get plenty of strenuous exercise, and get off my
butt and deal with a few situations I thought I
was too anxious about to deal with -- then he would
talk about boosting the meds. It was a swift kick
in the fanny at just about exactly the right time
and it worked wonders. If only I had kept it up.Anyway, what do folks know about repetitive
Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation (rTMS) as an
alternative to ECT?Cheers,
Bob
Posted by Nickm on November 26, 2003, at 9:06:47
In reply to Re: ECT?, posted by Ruth on August 31, 1999, at 21:12:47
My wife was given five ECTs (was supposed to get 6-12) when her crisis state was misdiagnosed as Major Depression plus psychotic somatic symptoms. She had akathisia caused by Abilify, and yes she had Depression, but her crisis was not due to the Depression itself, although her doctor kept insisting it was. The ECTs have left her cognitively impaired, with problems of short memory loss, AND long term memory losses as well. None of this was explained to her well, since she was coerced into a hospital admission to do the first ECT by the doctor telling her "You're going to die unless you have the ECTs." Another doctor had suggested cymetol to alleviate memory loss, and unipolar treatments. The doctor that coerced my wife used bipolar, and no cymetol. Once she was admitted to the hospital her akathisia symptoms got worse when she was pumped full of thorazine (and other drugs). As the ECTs progressed from 1 to 5 her akathisia got worse and worse. The depression never went away. Three weeks after we fired the original ECT doctor (he should be in jail or not practicing) another doctor prescribed benadryl and her akathisia symptoms improved by 80%. she's now on Effexor, an option the original doctor never gave her, and feeling better.
Unfortunately, too many of these psychiatrists who declare people "refractive to medications" and go for ECTs are only feeding their pockets. That is what they do for a living, and they use deceptive tactics, and lies to prey on vulnerable, depressed, mostly women (my wife is 63).
Stay away from ECTs. They have to be complemented by antidepressants or relapse occurs (assuming they helped), and then, after a second course of 6-12, these quacks want maintenance once a month. It is all designed to feed pockets of ruthless people who don't mind experimenting on the minds of vulnerable clients.
There are other options.
Nickm
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