Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 6524

Shown: posts 1 to 23 of 23. This is the beginning of the thread.

 

Parnate. I've heard it's great and a nightmare?

Posted by John on May 25, 1999, at 21:35:59

I've been astonished to find so often, in reading other depressed people's accounts of medication trials how many times refractory patients find that Parnate is the first and only thing to actually work. But my psychiatrist says it's "dirty", - lots of side effects, extreme ones, such as - severe hair loss, involuntary ejaculation, etc. I'd very much like to hear anyone else's experiences with Parnate. Does it always cause such severe side effects? Thanks.

 

Re: Parnate. I've heard it's great and a nightmare?

Posted by JD on May 26, 1999, at 6:39:11

In reply to Parnate. I've heard it's great and a nightmare? , posted by John on May 25, 1999, at 21:35:59

One reason I think Parnate works so well in some people is that, besides being a powerful MAO inhibitor, it also has some amphetamine-like properties which can be profoundly energizing. (The flip side is that this can easily lead to insomnia, etc.) As for other side effects, yes it's a "dirty drug" when compared to newer drugs like SSRIs (the tricyclics are also commonly called "dirty drugs" too), but I think this reputation is compounded by all the scares about MAOI food restrictions and hypertensive reactions. You're right that for many people, Parnate or another MAOI seems to be the only drug that works; what's more, I've noticed anecdotally that many people (though not all) claim that the side-effects and precautions are not as bad as they're made out to be. Interested what any actual users would have to say on this too!
--JD

> I've been astonished to find so often, in reading other depressed people's accounts of medication trials how many times refractory patients find that Parnate is the first and only thing to actually work. But my psychiatrist says it's "dirty", - lots of side effects, extreme ones, such as - severe hair loss, involuntary ejaculation, etc. I'd very much like to hear anyone else's experiences with Parnate. Does it always cause such severe side effects? Thanks.

 

Re: Parnate. I've heard it's great and a nightmare?

Posted by Elizabeth on May 27, 1999, at 5:00:12

In reply to Re: Parnate. I've heard it's great and a nightmare? , posted by JD on May 26, 1999, at 6:39:11

John,

Hi there. I take Parnate and it seems to be working pretty well. I got off to a false start because it caused *spontaneous* hypertensive episodes (I'm told this is rare - lucky me), but found that dividing the dose up and increasing it very gradually prevented that.

The only real side effect seems to be insomnia, and that's not so bad if I don't take it too late in the day (much like caffeine). I do think it has some intrinsic amphetamine-like effects, because it seemed to start working *awfully* fast.

The diet isn't much of a problem for me; it's never stopped me from eating whatever I want.

Oh, the subject: field for this thread made me think of one other thing: no nightmares on Parnate! No dreams at all actually. :-(

 

Re: Parnate. no nightmares

Posted by Dr. Bob on May 27, 1999, at 5:50:59

In reply to Re: Parnate. I've heard it's great and a nightmare? , posted by Elizabeth on May 27, 1999, at 5:00:12

> Oh, the subject: field for this thread made me think of one other thing: no nightmares on Parnate! No dreams at all actually. :-(

That sometimes is an indication that the dose is an effective one...

Bob

 

Re: Parnate. I've heard it's great and a nightmare?

Posted by Sean on May 27, 1999, at 17:26:39

In reply to Re: Parnate. I've heard it's great and a nightmare? , posted by Elizabeth on May 27, 1999, at 5:00:12

> John,
>
> Hi there. I take Parnate and it seems to be working pretty well. I got off to a false start because it caused *spontaneous* hypertensive episodes (I'm told this is rare - lucky me), but found that dividing the dose up and increasing it very gradually prevented that.
>
> The only real side effect seems to be insomnia, and that's not so bad if I don't take it too late in the day (much like caffeine). I do think it has some intrinsic amphetamine-like effects, because it seemed to start working *awfully* fast.
>
> The diet isn't much of a problem for me; it's never stopped me from eating whatever I want.
>
> Oh, the subject: field for this thread made me think of one other thing: no nightmares on Parnate! No dreams at all actually. :-(

Hmm, no dreams as a marker for right dose? Kind
of spooky in a way. Dr. Bob, is this an actual
reduction of REM sleep or "percieved" dreaming?

It is hard to imagine anything with an amphetamine
like effect promoting sounder REM sleep.

I've also heard that SSRI's are close to MAOI's in
terms of their "personality" effect and use with
dysthymia and atypical depression.

So, do people on MAOI's complain of the apathy and
shallowing effect of the SSRI's? Could there be a
connection between less dreaming and the
apathy/shallowing effect?

Dreams seem important, but who knows...

 

Re: Parnate. I've heard it's great and a nightmare?

Posted by mary on May 27, 1999, at 20:34:38

In reply to Re: Parnate. I've heard it's great and a nightmare? , posted by Sean on May 27, 1999, at 17:26:39

I took Parnate years ago after a trial study on Wellbutrin was stopped because of the seizure concern. I found that Parnate relieved my depression and my appetite finally improved. Howver, I was constantly hungry and willing to eat foods I had never lliked or enjoyed like french fries or Whoppers. Prior to Parnate I couldn't even finish a Whopper Jr. After experiencing a 65 lb. weight gain in four months, I went off Parnate and enrolled in an early trial program for Paroxetene. I have never lost more than 30 of those pounds and still find myself depressed. The only diet restriction which bothered me was not having cheddar cheese. Every time I did eat it I wondered what might happen to me. I have never achieved the same level of relief from depression as I had on Parnate
Mary

> > John,
> >
> > Hi there. I take Parnate and it seems to be working pretty well. I got off to a false start because it caused *spontaneous* hypertensive episodes (I'm told this is rare - lucky me), but found that dividing the dose up and increasing it very gradually prevented that.
> >
> > The only real side effect seems to be insomnia, and that's not so bad if I don't take it too late in the day (much like caffeine). I do think it has some intrinsic amphetamine-like effects, because it seemed to start working *awfully* fast.
> >
> > The diet isn't much of a problem for me; it's never stopped me from eating whatever I want.
> >
> > Oh, the subject: field for this thread made me think of one other thing: no nightmares on Parnate! No dreams at all actually. :-(
>
> Hmm, no dreams as a marker for right dose? Kind
> of spooky in a way. Dr. Bob, is this an actual
> reduction of REM sleep or "percieved" dreaming?
>
> It is hard to imagine anything with an amphetamine
> like effect promoting sounder REM sleep.
>
> I've also heard that SSRI's are close to MAOI's in
> terms of their "personality" effect and use with
> dysthymia and atypical depression.
>
> So, do people on MAOI's complain of the apathy and
> shallowing effect of the SSRI's? Could there be a
> connection between less dreaming and the
> apathy/shallowing effect?
>
> Dreams seem important, but who knows...

 

Re: Parnate. no nightmares

Posted by Elizabeth on May 27, 1999, at 22:31:59

In reply to Re: Parnate. no nightmares, posted by Dr. Bob on May 27, 1999, at 5:50:59

> > Oh, the subject: field for this thread made me think of one other thing: no nightmares on Parnate! No dreams at all actually. :-(
>
> That sometimes is an indication that the dose is an effective one...

Yeah. It kind of sucks. I miss my dreams.

To everyone: most effective antidepressants suppress REM sleep, which is associated with vivid dreams, to some degree. MAOIs abolish it completely. That's why they work so well in narcolepsy - and probably in depression too. (The hypothesis has been put forth that narcolepsy and depression have similar mechanisms but in different parts of the brain, or something like that - perhaps someone who has more of a clue about neuroanatomy than I do could elaborate on this one.)

 

Dreams and drugs

Posted by anne on May 28, 1999, at 15:44:17

In reply to Re: Parnate. no nightmares, posted by Elizabeth on May 27, 1999, at 22:31:59

I take Effexor XR and find I have the most vivid dreams I can ever remember having. Some good, some bad but all very clear and realistic. Why does this happen with Effexor and not other AD's? Anybody have an idea?

 

Re: Parnate. no nightmares

Posted by anita on May 28, 1999, at 19:17:47

In reply to Re: Parnate. no nightmares, posted by Elizabeth on May 27, 1999, at 22:31:59

You can still have nightmares even if REM sleep is abolished
by MAOIs, tho I understand it's unusual. Nightmares in SWS
are usually pretty horrible. On both Nardil and Parnate,
I had night terrors, which stopped when I discontinued the MAOIs.

anita

 

Re: Parnate. no nightmares

Posted by Elizabeth on May 29, 1999, at 0:45:06

In reply to Re: Parnate. no nightmares, posted by anita on May 28, 1999, at 19:17:47

> You can still have nightmares even if REM sleep is abolished
> by MAOIs, tho I understand it's unusual. Nightmares in SWS
> are usually pretty horrible. On both Nardil and Parnate,
> I had night terrors, which stopped when I discontinued the MAOIs.

That bites! What are you doing now, medswise?

 

Re: Parnate. no nightmares

Posted by Dwight on May 29, 1999, at 0:46:25

In reply to Re: Parnate. no nightmares, posted by Elizabeth on May 27, 1999, at 22:31:59

I have also noticed that I don't dream much on on MAOIs, though this seems to be dose related, and I don't think it necessarily blocks all REM sleep. This whole issue is rather disturbing/interesting if you consider the emphasis that psychoanalysis has put on dreams. I have sometimes wondered if these drugs work by supressing the unconscious. Does this mean that anti-depressants might prevent people from working out their unconscious conflicts?


> > > Oh, the subject: field for this thread made me think of one other thing: no nightmares on Parnate! No dreams at all actually. :-(
> >
> > That sometimes is an indication that the dose is an effective one...
>
> Yeah. It kind of sucks. I miss my dreams.
>
> To everyone: most effective antidepressants suppress REM sleep, which is associated with vivid dreams, to some degree. MAOIs abolish it completely. That's why they work so well in narcolepsy - and probably in depression too. (The hypothesis has been put forth that narcolepsy and depression have similar mechanisms but in different parts of the brain, or something like that - perhaps someone who has more of a clue about neuroanatomy than I do could elaborate on this one.)

 

Re: Parnate. no nightmares

Posted by Elizabeth on May 29, 1999, at 5:50:01

In reply to Re: Parnate. no nightmares, posted by Dwight on May 29, 1999, at 0:46:25

I took a class on the biology of sleep this semester. The issue of MAOIs and the fact that people on therapeutic doses of them generally have close to zero % REM came up. At the time I was thinking in terms of, "REM sleep is required for consolidation of memories," so I was rather freaked out. The professor actually speculated, though, that since unlike chronically REM-deprived people, those on MAOIs do not typically go mad :-), perhaps the MAOI is in some way "substituting" for REM sleep.

BTW I do occasionally have dreams if I can manage to stay asleep long enough. Not sure what stage of sleep they're in but they tend to be bizarre which suggests I-REM.

 

Re: Parnate. no nightmares - Dr. Bob?

Posted by Elizabeth on May 31, 1999, at 0:57:52

In reply to Re: Parnate. no nightmares, posted by Dr. Bob on May 27, 1999, at 5:50:59

> > Oh, the subject: field for this thread made me think of one other thing: no nightmares on Parnate! No dreams at all actually. :-(
>
> That sometimes is an indication that the dose is an effective one...

So Dr. Bob, what do you make of this? People with depression have early and prolonged first REM periods and increased overall % REM, and most effective antidepressants suppress REM (moclobemide and nefazodone being of dubious effectiveness :->), so does that mean dreaming is bad for us? And if not, what does it mean?

 

Re: Parnate. no nightmares

Posted by Dr. Bob on May 31, 1999, at 7:40:25

In reply to Re: Parnate. no nightmares - Dr. Bob?, posted by Elizabeth on May 31, 1999, at 0:57:52

> So Dr. Bob, what do you make of this? People with depression have early and prolonged first REM periods and increased overall % REM, and most effective antidepressants suppress REM (moclobemide and nefazodone being of dubious effectiveness :->), so does that mean dreaming is bad for us? And if not, what does it mean?

Beats me. Dreams are a mystery in more ways than one. :-)

Bob

PS: Just because less dreaming can be associated with antidepressant response doesn't mean there's a cause-and-effect relationship.

 

Re: Parnate. no nightmares

Posted by Elizabeth on May 31, 1999, at 10:25:02

In reply to Re: Parnate. no nightmares, posted by Dr. Bob on May 31, 1999, at 7:40:25

> Beats me. Dreams are a mystery in more ways than one. :-)

(Which other ways?)

> PS: Just because less dreaming can be associated with antidepressant response doesn't mean there's a cause-and-effect relationship.

Yeah, I know. It's pretty interesting, though.

 

Re: Parnate. overall side effects

Posted by John on June 2, 1999, at 11:03:52

In reply to Re: Parnate. no nightmares, posted by Elizabeth on May 31, 1999, at 10:25:02

I am very grateful to have gotten the information on Parnate experiences which people have shared on this thread. The nightmare/REM issue is a very interesting one. My original use of the term, however, was metaphorical. I am trying to find out about any and all possible negative side effects (or at least those people have experienced) of Parnate, particularly the physical ones (such as hair loss, etc.). It seems that weight gain is quite common. Anyone experience anything else? Thanks.

 

Re: Parnate. overall side effects

Posted by Elizabeth on June 2, 1999, at 12:09:19

In reply to Re: Parnate. overall side effects, posted by John on June 2, 1999, at 11:03:52

The nightmare thing was a pun, dude. :-)

As for "physical" side effects, no, weight gain is not common with Parnate. It is common with *Nardil*, however. The most common side effects of Parnate are insomnia and low blood pressure (especially, decreased blood pressure on standing up).

 

Re: Parnate. Re REM & Depression (Dr. Bob)

Posted by alan on June 6, 1999, at 3:34:27

In reply to Re: Parnate. overall side effects, posted by Elizabeth on June 2, 1999, at 12:09:19

I once read that some depressed patients were aided by being awakened all night each time they entered REM sleep. If this held up, it would be some evidence in favor of a causal connection between reducing REM sleep and alleviating depression?
BTW, has anyone ever studied depression among those rare individuals who never sleep or among eople who sleep remarkably little?

 

Re: Parnate. Re REM & Depression (Dr. Bob)

Posted by Erin on June 6, 1999, at 15:07:39

In reply to Re: Parnate. Re REM & Depression (Dr. Bob), posted by alan on June 6, 1999, at 3:34:27

Alan,

Check out the article "Little Sleep Loss Goes a Long Way in Depressed" located at http://www.mentalhealth.com/mag1/p5m-dp05.html

Erin

 

Re: Parnate. Re REM & Depression Re; Erin

Posted by alan on June 6, 1999, at 22:03:54

In reply to Re: Parnate. Re REM & Depression (Dr. Bob), posted by Erin on June 6, 1999, at 15:07:39

> Alan,
>
> Check out the article "Little Sleep Loss Goes a
Long Way in Depressed" located at
http://www.mentalhealth.com/mag1/p5m-dp05.html
>
> Erin

Erin,
Thanks, a very interesting article. I still
wonder about deprivation of REM sleep alone (well, as close as you can get); wonder if it
alone might be a causal factor. thanks again.
Alan

 

Re: Parnate. overall side effects

Posted by Delia on June 8, 2000, at 11:22:03

In reply to Re: Parnate. overall side effects, posted by John on June 2, 1999, at 11:03:52

Myhusband has been taking Parnate for 2 months, now up to 6 pills per day, no improvement. Has anyone heard of side effects such as impairment of cognitive skills, slurring and slowness of speech and forming sentences, stumbling, total incapability of understanding of things discussed, leaving taps running, no remembrance of burning something in microwaive, etc., etc. etc.? or is this just part of major depression?

 

Re: Parnate. overall side effects

Posted by Seamus2 on June 9, 2000, at 2:12:49

In reply to Re: Parnate. overall side effects, posted by Delia on June 8, 2000, at 11:22:03

> Myhusband has been taking Parnate for 2 months, now up to 6 pills per day, no improvement. Has anyone heard of side effects such as impairment of cognitive skills, slurring and slowness of speech and forming sentences, stumbling, total incapability of understanding of things discussed, leaving taps running, no remembrance of burning something in microwaive, etc., etc. etc.? or is this just part of major depression?

Comorbidity w/ ETOH?

Seamus

 

Re: Parnate. overall side effects

Posted by Delia on June 10, 2000, at 13:18:13

In reply to Re: Parnate. overall side effects, posted by Seamus2 on June 9, 2000, at 2:12:49

Seamus: What do you mean by comorbidity w/ETOH?

> > Myhusband has been taking Parnate for 2 months, now up to 6 pills per day, no improvement. Has anyone heard of side effects such as impairment of cognitive skills, slurring and slowness of speech and forming sentences, stumbling, total incapability of understanding of things discussed, leaving taps running, no remembrance of burning something in microwaive, etc., etc. etc.? or is this just part of major depression?
>
> Comorbidity w/ ETOH?
>
> Seamus


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