Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 827

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Sleep and feeling "normal"

Posted by janey on November 7, 1998, at 15:55:52

In reply to Re: Lost Message, posted by Toby on November 6, 1998, at 11:50:41

Hi DL.

I know what you mean about what a wonderful present
sleep is. I've been a chronic insomniac all my
life and a good night's sleep is just the absolutely,
totally wonderful best thing in life... yep, even
ahead of chocolate and maybe good sex. The jury
is still out on that one. ~laughing~

Feeling normal... There were days, weeks, months,
years even when I wondered if I'd ever feel "normal"
again. Sometimes it takes a while of feeling "normal",
or I prefer to call it "yourself" before you realize
you do feel normal.

This week I had a "bad" week, depressed and down,
didn't want to get out of bed (I missed some of my
medicine doses - I have to get better about that!).
It is reversible, and you can feel like your old self
again. When I finally did get off of my butt and take
my medicine like I'm supposed to, I'm good. I treat
myself often -- it could be just staying in on a Friday
night and wearing warm snuggly sweats, making sinfully
delicious hot chocolate, playing my favorite music on
the stereo and reading a trashy novel (that's what I
did last night! How positively selfish! ~big smile~)

Sometimes it's a bubble bath with a glass of wine; or a
manicure. Othertimes it could be flirting outrageously,
telling jokes or even petting my animals. When I treat
myself, indulge myself, I'm taking care of me, and
it helps maintain/achieve/whatever that feeling of
normalness, happiness, selfness.

Take care of you, hon, and good luck.

janey

 

Confusion/life moving too fast

Posted by DL on November 8, 1998, at 20:41:43

In reply to Re: Lost Message, posted by Toby on November 6, 1998, at 11:50:41

I know I wanted things to change, but everything is changing so fast now. Found a nice place to live and have been packing and trying to get things over there evenings and weekends. My husband is getting angry at everything now. If I pack half the dishes he wants the ones I have, he counts the towels to see if i took one too many. When he found out i had washed and packed a set of little bedroom curtains he got so mad he ripped the phone out of the wall and threw it. Of course I went into that scared and protective mode and found my heart racing and my insides in turmoil....

Spoke with my therapist this weekend. She said she thought it would be a good idea to wait to reassess the situation after I am moved out of the stressful situation and into my aparment. She said she would help me separate the situational from the medication issues then. I will be totally out of this situation probably by the 20th, The closing on our house is the 27th.

I got so worked up today that I had a glass of wine. I couldn't stand the worked up, on edge, feeling. It has increased the sort of drowsy feeling I have had the last few days. Any take on what is causing this? I may regret the wine since past experience is that I wake up around 12-3 AM and can't get back to sleep but I felt a GREAT need to settle the agitation.

I want to thank people for suggestions to help me. I wish I could use imagery and relaxation to help myself. It is not that i haven't tried, but that it is hard to learn those techniques on my own.

Drowsiness seems to be creeping somewhat back into mylife now. Any suggestions?

 

Re: Confusion/life moving too fast

Posted by Toby on November 9, 1998, at 14:41:16

In reply to Confusion/life moving too fast, posted by DL on November 8, 1998, at 20:41:43

Packing and moving are very energy draining even if you don't feel you are overdoing it. Add to that the emotional drain of moving away from a longstanding home and getting the third degree from a vengeful spouse, and you've got a recipe for tiredness, hopeless feelings, and an innate desire to withdraw from the world. Don't forget to take care of your physical self during this time. Enlist friends to help with the move (or just to be "around" when your ex is there to provide a buffer). When things have been bad a long time, it is hard to tell when depression is slipping back in vs. when you are having a normal stress reaction. Pray alot (which can be a form of meditation and relaxation itself) and focus on the future (what you want to be and do, not necessarily how to get there... that may be too much for now).

 

A good idea

Posted by DL on November 9, 1998, at 21:10:59

In reply to Re: Confusion/life moving too fast, posted by Toby on November 9, 1998, at 14:41:16

You know, I haven't gone to church for many years. But when you mentioned praying it brought up images of a church years ago with high stained glass windows with sun coming through and that big empty quite/peaceful feel. I don't know where it was or when because my experiences with church have not been peaceful.

Church is another part of my life touched by my father. Haven't thought about it in a long time. We were told we had to go to church as children. Everytime we moved it was a different type of church. When I was in high school he made us walk to churchschool. I was the oldest in the Sunday school and kids in highschool made fun of me because I still went. Then we had to wait and go to church after. The minister was terrifying--fire and brimstone type. His voice thundered out and scared me and always talked of what sinners humans were. When I had to be alone with him once at choir practice I was terrified--also when we left church and I had to shake his hand I would be shaking. He adopted a teenager who was scarred from a facial burn injury--he went to school with me. One night the boy went after them with a knife, set a fire at the house and raced away in their car. He was found and sentenced to jail. I never forgot that.

I never went to church after I left home and went to college. But if I could give up some of my troubles to someone else to take care of it would be nice.

I remember now where that chruch was--about 2 1/2 years ago a friend's teenaged son died of bone cancer. I went to a beautiful church to his memorial ceremony. I think I was building up to the depression level that sent me for help. I remember that when it was "OK" to cry at the service I started and could not stop for hours after I had come home. I had not cried for ages and was pretty desperate inside. I could not understand why I couldn't stop. It was not until I had almost given up on life and went in for help that I was able to cry. I think I thought if I did let go and cry I would fall apart and end up in a hospital....

My family has been helping me. I feel bad letting them pay for things. My mother offered to get new tires for my car (no tread left) and my sister offered to get a new mattress for my bed in the new place. I have slipped back some into the shroud of anxiety/depression. At first I felt triumphant and powerful and in charge when I signed the apartment lease. Then as the reality of costs and giving away/throwing out so many things that are a part of my role as "mom" in the past hit I started to run in the fear mode again. I am feeling a lot of mood swing.

Sorry to write so much. It is helping me. I learn about myself if I just take off with the keyboard and then read back.

Even though I still sleep well, I am feeling some of the drowsiness I felt when the Remeron dose was smaller. I never changed the timing of the dose. It was easier to take it at night but maybe I could try that. Also the prescription company for Health Ins (Maxor Plus) had a mix up and the compounded hormone script was not refilled. I have been working on it by phone but it ran out so I was taking half the dose and now it has run out. So that may be playing into this too.

I have thought about what I want to do. I have never had a vacation....When I am on my own I want to save up and go somewhere beautiful....

Thank you for your ideas. Perhaps I will quietly join a chruch service. I find myself tearing up thinking about it and I don't know why. I think I might break down there like I did before....There are still a lot of things about me I can't see into and understand.

When I am on the downswing I picture myself wanting to be in a place like the beautiful church--all alone--no sound--safe--peaceful--no anxiety--no yelling--no fear--drifting off and floating..(does this sound like I'm crazy?--because it sounds that way to me)

 

Toby's right...

Posted by janey on November 9, 1998, at 21:30:10

In reply to A good idea, posted by DL on November 9, 1998, at 21:10:59

DL,

Sometimes it's hard for us to accept help from
others -- family, friends, strangers -- whether
that help be emotional, financial, spiritual.
It's a learning experience to learn how to accept
help and it is a good thing.

I can't think of a safer place to cry than church.
Find yourself that pretty church where you felt
safe and loved and go in and pray or cry or just
be... You don't have to limit it to just Sunday.

A lot of churches in my area have their doors
unlocked during the day for people who want or need
to come in and connect with God.

A vacation... what a wonderful thing to plan for.
Think about where you might like to go. Surf the
Internet for those places. Cut out pictures from
magazines or such and keep those on your fridge
or your bathroom mirror or your bedside and
believe it's possible to go there.

Good luck. My thoughts are with you.

janey

 

Re: Confusion/life moving too fast

Posted by DL on November 14, 1998, at 1:52:06

In reply to Re: Confusion/life moving too fast, posted by Toby on November 9, 1998, at 14:41:16

> Packing and moving are very energy draining even if you don't feel you are overdoing it.

It's 2:30 in the morning. I'm up packing. Partly moved. I'm starting to feel what it might be like to disconnect from this long trapped life. When I am at the new place and thinking about the future.

Sleep is still good. I've stopped wondering each day if I might go back to the terrible old sleep pattern. And I hardly ever dissolve into those tears that float me down the hill. Anxiety is improving and frequently my concentration seems to be better.

But, the weight/appetite is a problem I don't want. It seemed to come over me just after I had finally had a week or two of good sleep. I know intellectually I should be able to control it, and I can't understand since I have always had an iron will (it's what kept me alive). Within minutes of thinking about losing the weight I have put on I suddenly notice I am eating something. I never felt hungry so much before. Perhaps when I am all moved and alone I can deal better with it.

But, if I still have trouble gaining should I try to stop the Remeron and see if I am OK without it?

>Focus on the future (what you want to be and do, not necessarily how to get there... that may be too much for now).

I want to go on a vacation somewhere beautiful and peaceful--even if it's only for a few days. It always seemed that everyone had them and I never did. When I build up some vacation time I want to do this. I also want to get more training in infant movement facilitation and feeding issues. I'm not even going to try to figure out how.

Should be all moved out by the 21st.......

 

Re: Confusion/life moving too fast

Posted by janey on November 14, 1998, at 14:29:27

In reply to Re: Confusion/life moving too fast, posted by DL on November 14, 1998, at 1:52:06

DL,

Janey here, not one of the docs. Congratulations!!
It sounds like you are doing so well!

Boy, that weight gain is a pain, isn't it? I'm
right there with you! This summer after my bad
depressive episode, I was wanting to lose my weight
and LOSE IT NOW! I was in a similar situation as
you. Moving into a new apartment, a healthy
environment for me, but I stuck on losing weight!

I was talking to my psychiatrist about it and she
put my STOP SIGN out there for me. She helps me
focus on one thing at a time. My medicine was
working excellently for me, and she said that's
one thing we weren't going to screw up.

She asked me to focus on moving. Getting the utilities
established/transferred, packing and unpacking,
learning about my new neighborhood - exploring and
to go to work. She gave me "permission" to be
overweight for a while; and let me tell you, what
a relief that was! I had permission from someone
not to worry about losing weight!

And so, for a month I did not worry about losing
weight -- AT ALL! Funny thing... I didn't GAIN
any weight during that time; I remained at the
weight I was.

Well, then the weight worry returned. There I was
at an appointment bitching about losing weight
again. Again she reminded me that my medicine
was working well and I was doing well, and we
weren't going to mess with that.

So, I was to focus on these things: If I skipped
the gym, then I was to walk 30-45 minutes that evening.
I was to avoid eating out (that will pack it on like
gangbusters!). I was to buy healthy snacks to
munch on during my "munch" phases, and try to prepare
more healthy foods for myself. If I prepare any
carbs for dinner, I try to balance it with chicken
or fish (salmon is great!), and a vegetable and
a fruit. The snacks I keep in the house are
low-fat microwave popcorn (and I dump Molly McButter on it!)
and my favorite fruits -- even canned fruit!

I make smoothies when I want an ice cream fix.
I put some ice in a blender, chop up some fruit
(whatever I want), pour in a little bit of low-
fat evaporated/condensed milk (the kind in a can)
and blend away! I pour it in a glass or bowl
and eat away. Note -- If I use apples as my fruit,
I put a little cinnamon in it. YUM. It's healthy
and sinfully delicious!

I keep my hands busy -- writing, crocheting, needle
point, jigsaw puzzles. I taught myself how to knit.

Again, indulge yourself, too. Go to the mall and
get a makeover at one of the makeup/perfume counters.
Who says you have to buy their stuff? Keep an eye
on the colors they use and buy Mabelline! ~laughing~
Get a day or half-day of beauty at a day spa -- new
haircut/hairdo, massage and manicure? Or, just get a
manicure!

Pick up travel brochures at travel agencies, or surf
the net? Start planning that really cool vacation
you've always wanted. Begin investigating how
you can learn more about infant movement facilitation
and feeding issues. I bet you're active in La Leche
League, aren't you? Do some web searches on infant
movement and facilitation.

Congratulations, DL, you are such a good role
model and you keep me on my toes! Thank you.
Don't let the weight rule your life right now. There
are too many positives already happening. Take
small steps in order to maintain it or begin to
lose it slowly. Weight is a nightmare to live with
sometimes. It seems like it comes on overnight
and takes forever to lose.

Good luck!

janey

 

Remeron questions

Posted by DL on November 15, 1998, at 22:59:36

In reply to Re: Confusion/life moving too fast, posted by janey on November 14, 1998, at 14:29:27

Toby,
Can you give me some help on these questions?

1. How long does one usually take Remeron? Is this related to how old you are or how long you have been depressed, or how many times you have been depressed?

2. What do you predict would happen if I stopped the Remeron now to deal with the weight gain? Would the sleep problem stay fixed? Would the weight go down?

3. Speech problem may be a little better. I have stopped chewing gum while driving. I notice it most when I need to talk fairly quickly without stopping for a while. Have not tried the klonopin even though I still have some here. I won't unless it gets worse. Would the klonopin and the Remeron together turn me into a slow moving cloud during the day?

4. Would increasing the Remeron decrease the weight problem? (have gained 12 lbs).

5. If I stay on the Remeron and sleep is OK and anxiety decreases, would you still recommend EMDR? I am coming to the point where I will transfer to another health policy and could switch therapists.

6. If I am receiving therapy sessions with one insurance co., does the new one have to continue--or could they refuse me?

I am about 1/2 moved. Should be mostly all done this coming weekend. Appts with CPA to talk about taxes and what to do money wise, and with mediators to sign final agreements. I need to send all the paperwork in and wait for a court hearing date. Hopefully this will be all done by the end of the year. Then I will be free of some of my worries (but with new ones like finances).

Haven't heard from you in a while. You are a point of stability from me.--You got me through some tough times in the last few months when my MD was not coming through for me. Thanks.

 

Re: Remeron questions

Posted by Toby on November 16, 1998, at 14:30:00

In reply to Remeron questions, posted by DL on November 15, 1998, at 22:59:36

1. They used to think depression could be treated for a year and then stop the medication and all would be well. Now, however, we know that depression tends to recur over and over. Now we say in general that if it's a first episode that fully responds to medication, that a person CAN stop it after about a full year's recovery. If it comes back (even years later) then the person should stay on an antidepressant forever.

2. You may lose weight if you stop the Remeron but you can't predict what would happen to the sleep or depression, but I would bet they would both return, especially if stress is still high in the environment.

3. Many people take Remeron and Klonopin together and do fine. Remember you are sensitive to medications and probably especially combinations of medications, so you would want to take tiny doses of Klonopin during the day for the speech problem if you did decide to try it again.

4. The higher the Remeron dose, the less drowsy and the less weight gain you get.

5. Yes, on the EMDR. The past is still there. If you want to someday decrease the need for meds and therapy and all that, you still need to put the past where it belongs... in the past. My goal is always to get the patient away from psychiatry if they can. I don't feel that people have a "psychiatry deficiency." I don't want repeat business (especially if it's something we could have fixed and just didn't) and I don't think psychiatrists should just treat the symptoms without treating the underlying problems, too. You need to address those abuse issues and once and for all send them packing and then if you need medication because you've got a chemical imbalance, then fine. If the chemical imbalance resolves along with the past, then better.

6. I suppose the new company could refuse therapy if they don't provide for it, but if the policy provides for it, I don't see why or how they could refuse medically necessary treatment.

I'm glad some things are coming together for you. Hope the other things resolve quickly and to your benefit so you can move on to actually living life in the present, rather than haunted by the past or worried to death by the future. Hang in there.

 

Re: Remeron questions

Posted by DL on November 16, 1998, at 23:34:26

In reply to Re: Remeron questions, posted by Toby on November 16, 1998, at 14:30:00

> If it comes back (even years later) then the person should stay on an antidepressant forever.

Wow! That sort of shook me up....to think I might be on a medication forever.....Does my history put me in that category?-

> 2. You may lose weight if you stop the Remeron but you can't predict what would happen to the sleep or depression, but I would bet they would both return...... The higher the Remeron dose, the less drowsy and the less weight gain you get.

Thanks for putting up with my see-sawing. I guess I knew such was the case. This is the only time in the last 3 years that I have been able to sleep consistently well. And, I am noticing that I am able to let some things bounce off me that would have lingered with me for a long time. I don't feel as anxious all the time and seem to be concentrating a little better. I don't want to lose that (especially the sleep).

Would you suggest upping the Remeron dose (I think it has been 8 weeks?) If so, would the larger dose be apt to cause any of those problems associated with Remeron and blood disorders? Would I need to have any tests?

> 3. Many people take Remeron and Klonopin together and do fine. Remember you are sensitive to medications and probably especially combinations of medications, so you would want to take tiny doses of Klonopin during the day for the speech problem if you did decide to try it again.

Thanks. It's nice to know I have the klonopin here in case I need it. You are right about the combinations. Once years ago a Dr. had me taking 3 different over the counter meds for a sinus problem. By the first afternoon I thought I was going crazy. At least 2 of them had strong nasal decongestants. I thought I was truly going crazy (the shakes, racing heart, agitated inside) and all of this was under the foggy blanket of an antihistamine.

> 5. Yes, on the EMDR. I don't think psychiatrists should just treat the symptoms without treating the underlying problems, too. You need to address those abuse issues and once and for all send them packing and then if you need medication because you've got a chemical imbalance, then fine. If the chemical imbalance resolves along with the past, then better.

OK--will try to do this as a Christmas gift for myself. Too bad managed care and many psychiatrists don't feel the way you do. I will take this message from you and print it for my therapist on Sat.

> I'm glad some things are coming together for you. Hope the other things resolve quickly and to your benefit so you can move on to actually living life in the present, rather than haunted by the past or worried to death by the future. Hang in there.

When I read this I teared up for the first time in quite a while. It's that caring and understanding that shines through. It means so much and acts like braces on legs--it helps stand me up so I can get going.

Keep in contact. I look here most every day.

 

Re: Remeron questions

Posted by Toby on November 17, 1998, at 13:07:44

In reply to Re: Remeron questions, posted by DL on November 16, 1998, at 23:34:26

Regarding the length of time to be on medications: Since your history of depression and anxiety is a long one, yet at the same time has never been really relieved by any medications until recently, it would be premature to say whether you should be on medications for life. In addition, from my last post, remember I said I thought you should do the EMDR and then see what, if any, symptoms you are left with. I don't want to hang out a carrot that you can't reach, but a good portion of my patients have been able to stop their medications without recurrence of anxiety or depression after EMDR. Remember that "a good portion" doesn't mean "everybody" and some folks just have a chemical imbalance that needs correcting. Even so, some of those patients have been able to get rid of one or more medications (for sleep and nightmares and anxiety and flashbacks and hallucinations, etc) and just remain on an antidepressant for a (probably) inherited illness. That is a tremendous difference. For you, just on one or two meds, we will just have to wait and see. Onward, now!!

 

Meds/EMDR

Posted by DL on November 17, 1998, at 21:56:13

In reply to Re: Remeron questions, posted by Toby on November 17, 1998, at 13:07:44


>> your history of depression and anxiety is a long one, yet at the same time has never been really relieved by any medications until recently.

I sense that a good part of my life I have been in the anxious/depressed mode but since that was all I knew Ididn't realize it. Then when hormones (pregnancy/delivery/menopause) or physical and mental stress were contributing factors, I gradually fell into that place where I felt trapped, alone, scared and unable to move in any direction--hanging on by my fingernails over a cliff. I think that if someone like you had spent a few hours getting to know me and some time experimenting and watching closely--I might have found relief sooner. 19 yrs ago when I was teetering on the edge after giving birth, no one seemed to be available. An OB/GYN prescribed Dalmane to help me sleep and then refused to renew it after 3 months. It was the same as with klonopin--I slept enough to stay alive and made my self keep going, but life was empty and full of terror for at least a year. I never saw a psychiatrist or therapist until 2 1/2 yrs ago. At that point I was just as bad again. The psch told me I was a Pandora's Box waiting to be opened! After those AD trials I was led to believe I "didn't want to get better" or the drastic effects were just in my mind etc. I started to believe it. Both times the MD's resorted to sleeping meds and then stopped even considering other things. So, if someone tried the right med I might have responded?

>>EMDR.
CAn you tell I am a little nervous about this? I will finish moving first and get the legal stuff over with--then call some of the people on the list. Hopefully new insurance will cover it. Since I may have to pay the full price, I want to make sure the person is very experienced and that I won't be afraid with them. That list has 9 people on it--I wish there was someone local who could recommend one of them.

What are your ideas on M or F for EMDR? I see a female therapist but was comfortable with a male therapist who did some couples therapy with us until my husband refused to go back. I was very comfortable with that male therapist.

I guess I am worried that I won' t feel safe enough or that my issues won't seem "big enough" to be bothered with. I myself don't feel them as much as I did a few months ago--they fade some when things are brighter for me.

>>
Will you be hanging around this site in the next few months so I know I will have someone to check in with during EMDR?

Hey, thanks for being there......


 

Re: Meds/EMDR

Posted by Toby on November 18, 1998, at 9:32:44

In reply to Meds/EMDR, posted by DL on November 17, 1998, at 21:56:13

Women with post partum depression (not just baby blues that go away in a few weeks) need antidepressants, not just sleep medications. Any woman with a history of post partum depression who starts getting the same symptoms again even when not pregnant needs to be evaluated for something stronger than sleep medications.

As long as the therapist has been properly trained in EMDR I don't think it matters whether the therapist is male or female. I think a Level II trained therapist would be best for you since the things you will be working on are "process" problems; i.e., lots of events over a lifetime rather than just one or two big traumas. A Level II trained person has more experience and can support you through the purging and reintegrating process better than a Level I trained therapist. Don't worry about whether your issues are "important" enough for EMDR. There's no such thing as an unimportant issue. If it bothers you, then it is important. The therapist will not judge you. In fact, some therapists don't even want to know what the problem is, they just go directly to the desensitization phase (the eye movements) and let your brain do all the work. It's not important that the therapist know all the details; it just wastes valuable processing time for the patient to talk to the therapist, so the therapist usually only stops long enough for the patient to say one or two sentences so that he/she can be sure processing is taking place and the patient is moving in some direction (any movement is good). Each therapist has his/her own technique, so just go in with an open mind and be prepared to be honest with yourself and allow yourself to feel everything. Many people get nervous about that part, feel that they can't handle it, but they forget that they've been feeling these things anyway for years and years and have handled it (sometimes well, sometimes not). In EMDR you feel the feelings all at once, cut them out like a surgeon cutting out a cancer and you are done with it. I've never had a patient who couldn't handle it; the brain is a resilient organ.

I'll be around for hopefully a long time; Lord willing and the creek don't rise.

 

Check in

Posted by DL on November 19, 1998, at 21:40:24

In reply to Re: Meds/EMDR, posted by Toby on November 18, 1998, at 9:32:44

I just have a need to keep this connection going....I feel unbelievably weighed down by all the things going on now. I can see a light far away at the end of the tunnel though. I can start to imagine being able to sit down in my own place without looking over my shoulder or wondering/worrying what might happen next. I think I will need an extended amount of time to go home from work and just absorb calm and peace--if indeed I find it. I am starting to feel a little bit of excitement about fixing up the apartment. But, I think something in me is holding back so I won't be disappointed in case it doesn't happen......It seems like I keep working so hard at making this new life and someone out there is testing me and making it hard.

Note about Remeron. It is very drying to my nose and lower lip. I have to keep chap stick nearby and often have dry skin peeling on my lower lip until I massage lots of moisturizer in. Is this because you said Remeron is in the antihistamine group? Have you noticed this before? But, I continue to have good sleep and less down times and less anxiety, so I won't stop it.

THANKS FOR THE SUPPORT. I won't let the creek rise............

 

Re: Check in

Posted by Toby on November 20, 1998, at 15:11:35

In reply to Check in, posted by DL on November 19, 1998, at 21:40:24

Remeron is drying so that, plus having started it in the cold season is probably causing it. It may well go away after a while. Hard to predict.
Have a good weekend this weekend; you know, one day at a time...

 

Re: Check in - dry nose and mouth

Posted by janey on November 21, 1998, at 10:12:11

In reply to Re: Check in, posted by Toby on November 20, 1998, at 15:11:35

Hi DL,

I don't know if my posts do any good or not, but
here's some help for your dry nose and mouth, maybe.

I have a problem with dry nose especially in the winter.
At night, I run a warm mist humidifier in my bedroom
and during the day I use "Ocean" nasal spray or
the drugstore's cheaper version. All it is is
a saline solution that helps keeps the nasal tissues
moist. It is NOT A DRUG.. so it won't interact
with any of your meds or treatment and you can't
get addicted to it.

As for dry mouth and throat, I keep a glass of water
at the bedside and I have suckers (Dum-Dums) and Vitamin C
drops that I keep near.

Good luck.

janey

 

FREE!

Posted by DL on November 22, 1998, at 22:59:33

In reply to Re: Check in, posted by Toby on November 20, 1998, at 15:11:35

HEY I'M FREE!
Hey, guess what! All the cleaning, selling, dividing, moving is coming to an end! 2 of my sons helped this weekend and I have almost everything here. Best of all I love my place and I feel FREE here! It feels like I have burst out of a shell and I don't have to be "on guard" all the time. I think I can learn to relax now. I'm not crazy enough to think that everything is fixed now--but I will be able to start working on a healthier spirit, mind and body. I don't have much money for the holidays this year but I think my present to myself and my family and friends will be that I am coming alive again.......Wish me luck as I bravely step out into the world. And, thanks for the suggestions.

 

Re: FREE!

Posted by Sandra on November 24, 1998, at 0:58:39

In reply to FREE!, posted by DL on November 22, 1998, at 22:59:33

Congrats on having your own space to nurture yourself. I was just wondering what is EMDR?

 

Re: FREE!

Posted by Toby on November 24, 1998, at 12:21:02

In reply to Re: FREE!, posted by Sandra on November 24, 1998, at 0:58:39

EMDR is Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing. It is a super fast technique of getting rid of the painful parts of traumas. It lets the body and the brain release the emotional and physical pains of traumatic experiences like rape, near death experiences, physical/sexual abuse, grief, etc and also helps with the (relatively) less traumatic things like phobias, guilt, anger, eating disorders, bad relationships with your family of origin, etc. A given event can be processed and relief can occur in as little as two hours. It uses the same eye movements that occur in dream sleep (which is associated with memory, learning and emotional encoding of events) while thinking about a stressful event and the negative thoughts that event causes you to think about yourself. The brain is not able to hold all these things at once and the easiest thing to let go of is the emotional pain which in turn allows the event to be properly placed into "memory" rather than keeping it "locked" in the nervouse system and always feeling it like it just happened yesterday. Sounds hokey. It works.

 

Re: FREE!

Posted by Susan on November 25, 1998, at 2:40:44

In reply to Re: FREE!, posted by Toby on November 24, 1998, at 12:21:02

Are there any Christian Psychiatrists who are trained in this method or do they generally frown on the use of EMDR? How could I find out? Does it help with the ruminations during the depressive phase of Bipolar 2 or Cyclothymia? Is it a last resort for "pooped out" antidepressant treatment or do doctors use it in conjunction with medication for faster recovery? Are separate sessions needed for each traumatic event or does one treatment cover many incidences of abuse? If used early in treatment of depression would the progression of the illness to bipolar be possibly averted? Can it eliminate the need to begin mood stabilizing drugs?

 

Re: FREE!

Posted by Toby on November 25, 1998, at 15:22:18

In reply to Re: FREE!, posted by Susan on November 25, 1998, at 2:40:44

Most of the therapists I know that do EMDR are Christian. I tell patients who worry that it is voodoo or anti-Christian that the Bible says we are wonderfully and strangely made, so this is just something that we've recently found out about ourselves and it allows us to essentially heal ourselves. You can go to the EMDR web site: www.emdr.com and read about it and also they have phone numbers and addresses to find therapists in your area. Sometimes separate sessions are needed for people with multiple traumas or a history of longstanding abuse, but often, because of the way are brain makes associations between various events in our lives (both good and bad), EMDR does generalize to different events. It is rare that I see a patient for EMDR who doesn't make one or more connections to different events in their lives, even if the person initially thought there was only one thing they needed to work on. It won't cure genetically caused depression or bipolar disorder, nor psychotic illnesses or OCD. Those illnesses need to be treated with pharmacology. HOWEVER... we know that many people with longstanding depression and/or bipolar disorder have had traumas in their lives, either because the nature of their illness puts them in risky situations, or because they grew up in a chaotic home etc. These traumas will respond to EMDR and can usually make it easier to cope with the genetic illness, can alleviate the guilt that sometimes comes with having an illness like depression or bipolar, and help develop better coping skills to deal with bad situations that may arise in the future. Depression all by itself does not usually or automatically lead to bipolar disorder (I may be misunderstanding the question) and EMDR may not eliminate the need for mood stabilizers. HOWEVER... if by some chance a person has been diagnosed with bipolar disorder because of a chaotic unhappy irritable life that MAYBE could be due to early life traumas (i.e., a person has never been able to make good connections with other people, doesn't have good self control, is unhappy much of the time unless in a new relationship, things like that that could be due to growing up in a dysfunctional family of origin), then by getting rid of the burden of guilt, shame, lack of love, being able to place blame where it properly belongs rather than on yourself, and developing a better self image and getting some hope for doing better, then maybe medications wouldn't be needed anymore. I've worked with about a dozen folks with that scenario. If a patient really has bipolar disorder, meds are still needed but overall life functioning is much improved.

 

Re: DL

Posted by Toby on November 25, 1998, at 15:24:30

In reply to Re: FREE!, posted by Toby on November 24, 1998, at 12:21:02

Since the new month is almost here, let's start a new thread next week since this one is getting really long. Hope you have good plans for the holiday. If you are going out of town, don't forget your medications. :)

 

Thanks for keeping the link going

Posted by DL on November 25, 1998, at 22:53:58

In reply to Re: DL, posted by Toby on November 25, 1998, at 15:24:30

Yes, I am feeling a release and some decrease in that overly alert on -guard way of living. But, it is a high that is leveling/decreasing already. Life is work for me. I am still not sure where I am going. And I still find myself becoming racy and wound inside when something does not go as expected. I guess I have always felt safe in an organized structure and have tried super hard to set up my new life that way. I need to learn to let go of some of that. Last night I was watching TV for an hour and kept jumping back to the thought that I should be doing something else--like reports for work, or cleaning or whatever. How do I deal with this? How can I learn to leave some of those things behind? And why is it so hard for me to relax? Is this inherited from my father who can not live without his life structured down to the tiniest things? I must fight with myself to stay out of that "I don't deserve to relax and let go" mode. What's up here? Can I find a way out of it?

Don't worry. I won't forget the meds. EVen though I continue to gain some weight and am very unhappy about it, the sleep is worth just about anything. Years without good sleep have taught me that. But I want to learn to have fun. I think I need permission to do so. Any suggestions?

Divorce hearing is on Dec 8th.....

Thanks for continuing the connection. I feel unworthy of taking so much of your time. But have a rush of relief when I know you are there. Don't know why it is so important to me and why I feel deep disappointment when there is a lapse in the connection.
Dotty

 

Re: Relax

Posted by Toby on November 30, 1998, at 9:07:39

In reply to Thanks for keeping the link going, posted by DL on November 25, 1998, at 22:53:58

To learn to relax after a lifetime of being ready at a moments notice to do battle or fix a crisis (that may never materialize) or do someone's bidding.... Boy, you expect a lot from yourself in a short time. That's said with some jest, but seriously, to learn to relax after all that takes practice. You have to verbally say to yourself, "I deserve a break today (or this afternoon or tonight or this moment)" and then you have to do something that really IS taking a break, whether that's reading a book for pleasure (not work) or walking in the park or watching a video or doing absolutely NOTHING. Of course those nagging thoughts will pop in and out of what you could, should, have to do instead, but when you are PRACTICING giving yourself a break, you just let those thoughts come and acknowledge that you could, should, have to do other things, BUT NOT RIGHT NOW... RIGHT NOW I DESERVE A BREAK and continue to do the relaxing thing. Therapists have a saying, "Act as if..." which means that if you want to become relaxed, you have to act as if you are relaxed. If you practice this, eventually you will become relaxed because in order to continue practicing, you have to give yourself reasons to continue and you have to engage in relaxing behaviors and you have to remind yourself that it is OK to continue in the relaxing behavior. After awhile it will become habit, just like the old behaviors and thoughts were habits. For humans to change the way they feel, the behaviors almost always have to change first and then the feelings follow. It's almost never the other way around; for example, if you wait until you aren't afraid of heights to climb a tall ladder, it'll never happen. You have to climb the ladder (behavior) maybe a hundred times before the fear (emotion) vanishes and confidence (emotion) builds. Same with relaxation; you have to do the relaxing things for awhile and allow yourself to see that taking time for yourself does not result in disaster at work or anywhere else and then you'll be able to relax easier.

As for "taking" someone's time... no one can do that. Time is given, not taken (even really slow people in line at the grocery store don't take anyone's time, the other people can always leave the line, it's just a matter of priorities). No one on this board is having their time taken. If we didn't want to be here, we'd be playing solitare. Everyone deserves an ear.

 

Pandora's Box

Posted by DL on November 30, 1998, at 23:15:16

In reply to Re: Relax, posted by Toby on November 30, 1998, at 9:07:39

Don't know if this will post since the end of the month archiving may be in process...

> To learn to relax after a lifetime of being ready at a moments notice to do battle or fix a crisis (that may never materialize) or do someone's bidding.... Boy, you expect a lot from yourself in a short time.

Yes...........But I guess I needed someone to tell me that in black and white. I just want to find peace.....I think even my misguided efforts in the last years have been striving for that. I wouldn't be surprised if I had totally depleted my adrenals from the way I have been living. I will find a way to factor in pure peaceful time each week. Perhaps I must go somewhere away from the papers and reminders of things to do. It is too bad that I must practice and learn to have the peace I need so badly. It sort of feels like I need a jump start or another set of glasses to wear for a while. It's sort of like being in a cocoon--all the nature books show pictures of something beautiful to expect, but you have to get out of the cocoon first----

For humans to change the way they feel, the behaviors almost always have to change first and then the feelings follow. It's almost never the other way around

I think I will post that on my fridge. Thank you.

> As for "taking" someone's time... no one can do that. Time is given, not taken

Another good one for the fridge.....

QUESTION: When AD's are used for OCD, are they usually used in higher doses?

I am sure my father is in this category somewhere. And my younger sister who lives in GA told me a year ago that she is OCD--never saw anyone for it but she has struggled with it since highschool. Her daughter has trouble with it also. My sister told me she would have to count the stairs in a certain way and step on them in a certain pattern or she would have to start all over again. ANd when she went to bed she had to say certain things over in a certain way or would have to repeat them over and over. She also could not hand in a school paper with an erasure. She would copy over the whole thing each time (back when no computers!]. When I first shared with anyone about my mental health she wrote this back. I felt terrible since I was in college at this time but did not notice anything. She said it got so bad that she considered finding a way to die a few times. At the same time she knew nothing of the pain in my adult life. We were all trained very well to hide things from the world.

It seems like there is some kind of genetic thing at work here in my family--combined with a dysfunctional upbringing.

Comments?

QUESTION:
Should I increase the REmeron from 30mg to see if it will decrease the weight thing etc, or leave it alone?

The house is truly gone now. The closing was this morning. It was not easy to give away the house where my last son was born, but I figure I will give away some bad ghosts too....The worst part was paying my husband $5000 towards his credit card debt as part of our mediation agreement. I didn't show it but I'm still angry inside because he built it up buying toys and gambling...At one time I typed a document that read "I hate you because----" and filled each line in with something different--it went on for 5 pages. I was going to give it to him after the divorce hearing but don't think I will now. The anger is still there but I don't want to cause anymore pain for anyone and would feel guilty. He never would talk to me about the terrible times so I couldn't process it.

And, sometimes I find that there are still things hiding in the recesses of Pandora's box--and I don't know what to do with them----they knaw at me till my soul bleeds. -No one knows me here so I will brave getting one out in the open. Here goes: 15 years ago there was a beautiful baby created and I snuffed it out. My husband was an active alcoholic then and the bank sent armed men to take the car because he was drinking all the money. I was home with 3 little children and working nights. I worried all the time I worked since I knew he was drinking. There was no money, I was afraid all the time. I knew I could not bring another life into that. He didn't even come in with me--he didn't even cook dinner after. I went to work the next day. I hated myself and the war inside was terrible. But it is in the past now. But I can't even type about it without rocking back and forth and crying. God, I love babies. I have no idea how to resolve such things as this that are down in the corners of that box.



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