![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 63 to 87 of 98. Go back in thread:
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 8, 1999, at 21:18:21
In reply to Re: recovery, posted by harry on April 8, 1999, at 8:30:53
> Being "brought to task" in regards to the effects of one's words and actions is an ESSENTIAL part of GROWING UP...
> Does it hurt?..You bet.
I'm glad you appreciate that it's essential. I hope it didn't hurt too much. :-)
> It hurts when we get any "abscess" drained...
It also hurts when we get needled where we don't have an abcess.
Bob
Posted by JohnB on April 8, 1999, at 23:58:23
In reply to the weight gain issue, posted by saintjames on March 26, 1999, at 1:46:56
Exercise and balanced nutrition are important to anyone's overall well-being. But keep in mind: most anti-d's in use now target neurotransmitter systems generally, which can mean many different parts of the brain, not all of which are necessarily implicated in depressive symptoms. An increase or decrease of, say, serotonin in certain parts of the brain my help mood symptoms but my play havoc with sites involved with appetitive or metabolic management. In most cases, weight gain is not caused by anything the patient can control completely; having an obscene sweet-tooth or overwhelming craving while on an MAOI or TRICYCLIC is as intense and all-consuming as the depressive symptoms being treated. This pharmacologically-triggered command to eat becomes real to many patients, and the literal slowing of metabolic processes make weight gain almost inevitable. Weight gain and its impact on health is not some frivolous concern. It's a genuine threat to human health that contributes to the chaos of a biological system out of balance, just as the torment of depression does.
Posted by Elizabeth on April 9, 1999, at 6:28:59
In reply to Re: the weight gain issue, posted by JohnB on April 8, 1999, at 23:58:23
(Thanks to Dr. Bob for making a point that we sometimes forget. :-)
>An increase or decrease of, say, serotonin in certain parts of the brain my help mood symptoms but my play havoc with sites involved with appetitive or metabolic management. In most cases, weight gain is not caused by anything the patient can control completely; having an obscene sweet-tooth or overwhelming craving while on an MAOI or TRICYCLIC is as intense and all-consuming as the depressive symptoms being treated. This pharmacologically-triggered command to eat becomes real to many patients, and the literal slowing of metabolic processes make weight gain almost inevitable. Weight gain and its impact on health is not some frivolous concern. It's a genuine threat to human health that contributes to the chaos of a biological system out of balance, just as the torment of depression does.
Yes, I can identify with this. It happened to me on two drugs, Nardil and amoxapine (the amoxapine was in an MAOI-tricyclic combination, which may have made it worse - not sure). It felt like being addicted to food - I'm happy never to have had the experience of having been addicted to drugs, but I can imagine this is what it feels like. I was constantly thinking about food and having cravings for it.
The way this was explained to me is that whatever it is that tells you, "okay, we're full now" (mediated by the hypothalamus?) - i.e., the satiety response - is blocked by some of these drugs. I get the impression not much is known about this.
Apparently, some of the newer antidepressants can do this too; I've heard about it quite a lot with regard to Paxil (interestingly, one of the more "selective" serotonin reuptake inhibitors).
My psychopharmacology instructor (a wide-eyed research type) says he expects the next big revolution in pharmacology to be a new type of drug delivery system that allows you to target specific areas of the brain. (I'm not so sure about that, at least not until imaging studies (fMRI, etc.) are a lot less expensive and we have gotten more adept at interpreting the results, but it's an interesting idea nonetheless.)
Posted by harry on April 9, 1999, at 9:07:53
In reply to Re: being considerate, posted by Dr. Bob on April 8, 1999, at 21:18:21
I stand by every word i said Doc.
Posted by Nancy on April 9, 1999, at 19:37:38
In reply to Re: the weight gain issue, posted by JohnB on April 8, 1999, at 23:58:23
Hello! Well said. I'm burning off 1000calories a day. I'm consuming a diet high in protien, low in fat and carbs. The amount I'm consuming is about 1200calories +/- 50calories per day. But, HELLO, I'm STILL GAINING WEIGHT!!! Fortunately, my pdoc also doubles as a specialist in eating disorders. So, he's having me keep a detailed daily log of everything I consume and all the exercise that I do. I guess he finds this anomoly difficult to SWALLOW...LOL. Personally, I have a hard time choking it down myself.
My meds are: 350mg Seroquel, 300mg Effexor XR, 50mcg T3(cytomel), and 150mcg T4(synthroid).
note: after having ECT, I dropped twenty pounds in 21 days. then, i was started on effexor and topomax. during the time of the ect, i was still on seroquel, but, only 200mg daily.
why no topomax, currently? well, my pdoc said that he did not approve of patients taking this drug, since HE hadn't read much in the way of studies done for topomax. so, i dropped the topomax and increased the seroquel (very effective mood stabilizer for me). i've continued to surf for topomax info. i think the pdoc who did my ect and gave me topomax was wise.
What can a pdoc do to help paitients who gain a lot of weight as a side effect of taking psychotropics??!!
> Exercise and balanced nutrition are important to anyone's overall well-being. But keep in mind: most anti-d's in use now target neurotransmitter systems generally, which can mean many different parts of the brain, not all of which are necessarily implicated in depressive symptoms. An increase or decrease of, say, serotonin in certain parts of the brain my help mood symptoms but my play havoc with sites involved with appetitive or metabolic management. In most cases, weight gain is not caused by anything the patient can control completely; having an obscene sweet-tooth or overwhelming craving while on an MAOI or TRICYCLIC is as intense and all-consuming as the depressive symptoms being treated. This pharmacologically-triggered command to eat becomes real to many patients, and the literal slowing of metabolic processes make weight gain almost inevitable. Weight gain and its impact on health is not some frivolous concern. It's a genuine threat to human health that contributes to the chaos of a biological system out of balance, just as the torment of depression does.
Posted by harry on April 9, 1999, at 22:36:04
In reply to Re: the weight gain issue/ can the pdocs help us?, posted by Nancy on April 9, 1999, at 19:37:38
"difficult to swallow".."hard time choking it down: HAHAHA
Posted by v on April 10, 1999, at 5:42:19
In reply to Re: recovery, posted by harry on April 8, 1999, at 8:39:41
thank you harry... that was very sweet of you to say... i really appreciate it
v
> BTW..i think "v"'s posting are excellent...express where she is at..how she is feeling..and the effects anothers actions have on her.
> THIS is a basic ability leading to being a healthy adult.
Posted by Muse on April 10, 1999, at 7:37:09
In reply to Re: being considerate, posted by harry on April 9, 1999, at 9:07:53
I have been saddened by what I have read. I thought this was supposed to be a helpful, supportive site. While you may not agree with what Terry said, could you not use some maturity in communication? It seems you spouted off at the keyboard as easily as you might verbally - reacting emotionally without thinking about what you are saying. I certainly have been guilty of saying things I shouldn't in a tone and intensity I shouldn't - but, like Dr. Bob has said, message boards provide an opportunity to THINK before you "speak". Terry was clearly finding a niche at this site; I grieve that someone has been driven away by such rudeness. I believe you need to re-read (assuming you have read it to begin with) Dr. Bob's introduction to this message board. I hope for your sake you can find a way to express your disagreement on this board and in life in a less hurtful way. Since people on this board do have problems, I will allow that the way you have expressed your disagreement and dislike is a symptom of something you are currently being treated for, and will try not to be as harshly judgmental as I would like to be right now. I wish you well.
Posted by harry on April 10, 1999, at 12:03:54
In reply to Being considerate, posted by Muse on April 10, 1999, at 7:37:09
Thats all very intellectual and interesting.
AND...getting REALLY angry at ANYONE who attempts to interfere with GENUINE efforts at recovery...with GENUINE expression of of what REAALLY matters to them (exercise, health, depression, etc)..is ESSENTIAL to leading a healthy life.Saying..."oooh..cutchy cutchy coo"...when someone steps on your toes..esp. ON PURPOSE...ESPECIALLY when you exerted IMMENSE effort to even the shoes they stpped on ON to get outside...is essential, integral an absolutely necessary..for you..AND for the person who thinks it's ok to interfere with you.
I think a great deal about EVERYTHING i say and write and do, you ignoramus.
I swear....i think a great title for a tome on recovering from this illness would be..."Oh yea?..well FYCK that and FYCK you".
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 10, 1999, at 12:20:42
In reply to Re: Being considerate, posted by harry on April 10, 1999, at 12:03:54
Hi, again,
I was hoping it wouldn't come to this, but I see I will have to find a way to keep people who can't or won't behave from disrupting this forum.
Alas, there are other things I'd rather do.
Anyway, in the meantime, I suggest just ignoring those who don't participate constructively. It's a good coping mechanism to practice using. :-)
Bob
Posted by v on April 10, 1999, at 12:30:32
In reply to misbehavior, posted by Dr. Bob on April 10, 1999, at 12:20:42
how about we get back to the issue at hand... is there any known combination of meds that would keep the weight gain from occurring?
are there any new meds on the horizon which do not cause weight gain?
what can we do?????????????
thank you
v
Posted by harry on April 10, 1999, at 16:57:05
In reply to misbehavior, posted by Dr. Bob on April 10, 1999, at 12:20:42
Well said v.
Doc...based on what you have posted here...i think what you may consider "mishaving" is actually "expression of self".
You may have have better said..
.."I will have to find a way to keep people .. from ...".. getting better.One cannot shine a diamond with fancy velvet.
One uses a rough stone.
Interactions...ALL interactions..are experiences
of change, growth, development, and learning.Life is NOT always "nice".
I stand by every word i posted.
Beware those that accept and condone evil for their own selfish puposes..as altrusitic at they may seem.
After over 13 years of Psychotic Depression...i am now...OFF all psych meds...lost 10 pounds in approx 10 days.
I think pretty straight. I have plans and hopes and dreams.
And i am never..and i mean NEVER EVER ..going back to where i was.And i did NOT get here..by "behaving" as others would like....in fact..THAT IS PART OF WHY I GOT SICK.
Like everything..it is a long story..however..
If there is any one thing that assisted me..it was getting to the point...
inside..where i FINALLY said.."Oh yea?...well FYCK that..and FYCK you"Which is EXACTLY the way anyone needs to be treated who is..literally..willing to see you DEAD..in order to maintain THEIR status quo.
Let he who has ears hear.
I will not be the only you hear this from.
Genuine caring involves deep EMOTION.
It is easy to be the "peacemaker" when the actions..AND the CONSEQUENCES..affect you little.
Take Care.
Posted by Nancy on April 10, 1999, at 17:02:57
In reply to Being considerate, posted by Muse on April 10, 1999, at 7:37:09
Can we all just get over this hump. I agree that we're all here in need of support. So, let's just get back to it. It was a learning experience like everything posted on this board. We can get through this. I also sent an email to Terry. I let her know; a) that she was important, too and b) not to leave us over an issue that can be resolved and c) that we are all struggling.
Thank you, to everyone for being here.
Nancy :) ;) :)
> I have been saddened by what I have read. I thought this was supposed to be a helpful, supportive site. While you may not agree with what Terry said, could you not use some maturity in communication? It seems you spouted off at the keyboard as easily as you might verbally - reacting emotionally without thinking about what you are saying. I certainly have been guilty of saying things I shouldn't in a tone and intensity I shouldn't - but, like Dr. Bob has said, message boards provide an opportunity to THINK before you "speak". Terry was clearly finding a niche at this site; I grieve that someone has been driven away by such rudeness. I believe you need to re-read (assuming you have read it to begin with) Dr. Bob's introduction to this message board. I hope for your sake you can find a way to express your disagreement on this board and in life in a less hurtful way. Since people on this board do have problems, I will allow that the way you have expressed your disagreement and dislike is a symptom of something you are currently being treated for, and will try not to be as harshly judgmental as I would like to be right now. I wish you well.
Posted by Nancy on April 10, 1999, at 17:13:54
In reply to Re: Being considerate, posted by harry on April 10, 1999, at 12:03:54
I'm so terrible sorry that people are taking sides about an issue that long ago should have been laid PEACEFULLY to rest. Harry, I am ashamed for those who have attcked you. It's been unfair to attack Harry, when obviously he has been deeply hurt by the comment(s) that triggered this issue. Perhaps, it would have been more intelligent AND compassionate for those attackers to invite Harry and all the rest of us to explore and discuss the feelings set into motion by the issue.
We're all in this together. So, let's stick together and support and help each other. Now, would be an excellent time to begin. Everyone is invited to be a part of this.
Nancy
> Thats all very intellectual and interesting.
> AND...getting REALLY angry at ANYONE who attempts to interfere with GENUINE efforts at recovery...with GENUINE expression of of what REAALLY matters to them (exercise, health, depression, etc)..is ESSENTIAL to leading a healthy life.
>
> Saying..."oooh..cutchy cutchy coo"...when someone steps on your toes..esp. ON PURPOSE...ESPECIALLY when you exerted IMMENSE effort to even the shoes they stpped on ON to get outside...is essential, integral an absolutely necessary..for you..AND for the person who thinks it's ok to interfere with you.
>
> I think a great deal about EVERYTHING i say and write and do, you ignoramus.
>
> I swear....i think a great title for a tome on recovering from this illness would be..."Oh yea?..well FYCK that and FYCK you".
Posted by Nancy on April 10, 1999, at 17:21:35
In reply to the real issue / please help, posted by v on April 10, 1999, at 12:30:32
Is there medication a pdoc can add to REVERSE the horrendous weight problems that have been PROVEN to have been induced by one's psychotropic meds? I say PROVEN, because I've been keeping a log of intake and exercise for many months. This log is accurate, since it's being kept by a long time bodybuilder who was 110Lbs at 10% body fat for many years.
Is there any known combination of meds that would keep the weight gain from occurring?
>
> are there any new meds on the horizon which do not cause weight gain?
>
> what can we do?????????????
>
> thank you
>
> v
AND Nancy
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 11, 1999, at 0:56:27
In reply to Re: misbehavior, posted by harry on April 10, 1999, at 16:57:05
> Doc...based on what you have posted here...i think what you may consider "mishaving" is actually "expression of self".
>
> You may have have better said..
> .."I will have to find a way to keep people .. from ...".. getting better.
>
> One cannot shine a diamond with fancy velvet.
> One uses a rough stone.
> Interactions...ALL interactions..are experiences
> of change, growth, development, and learning.
>
> Life is NOT always "nice"...I can understand your point of view. But my position would be that your expression of self doesn't promote the goals of this forum.
So I've tried to block you from posting.
If you think that interferes with your getting better, remember, life is not always nice and even this interaction may be an experience of change, growth, development, and learning.
Bob
Posted by v on April 11, 1999, at 5:26:30
In reply to Re: misbehavior, posted by Dr. Bob on April 11, 1999, at 0:56:27
i agree with nancy that harry should have the same rights to express himself here and am asking that you please not censor him from participating...
that said, i must also ask you to PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE address the question of whether there is anything we can do about the weight gain...
obviously this is an extremely loaded issue and one which to some degree is destroying & crippling lives just as surely as the depression which preceded it...
what can we do? is there anything new being developed? are there combinations of meds we can consider taking?
v
> I can understand your point of view. But my position would be that your expression of self doesn't promote the goals of this forum.
>
> So I've tried to block you from posting.
>
> If you think that interferes with your getting better, remember, life is not always nice and even this interaction may be an experience of change, growth, development, and learning.
>
> Bob
Posted by v on April 11, 1999, at 5:39:59
In reply to Re:misbehavior / please answer us, posted by v on April 11, 1999, at 5:26:30
perhaps i also need to say what i forgot to mention...
that this forum is a very powerful tool.. and while i don't condone name calling or personal attacks, i do appreciate the fact that many here stepped forward to contain any damage and correct any misunderstandings
i think that this opportunity to take care of ourselves is a very valuable one... as well as the opportunity to perceive what someone is trying to say, even when the language may suggest something else... obviously, we all communicate differently - my english can be as much a foreign language to someone else as any other...
it's good to have to sometimes see past ourselves and our fears in order to really hear someone elseand for this as well, i ask that you not block harry from posting
we all have so much to learn from one another
v
Posted by Nancy on April 11, 1999, at 10:01:55
In reply to MORE Re:misbehavior / please answer us, posted by v on April 11, 1999, at 5:39:59
I agree with v. Furthermore, Harry has been supportive and helpful to me. Please, don't block him from this forum. His pain is very much a part of the disorder that he tries so hard to live with. I feel that he has been reaching out and aggressively seeking help from us.
I have rages when I'm manic. But, that is not who I am. I'm not "misbehaving" while I'm manic. I'm JUST MANIC. I practice methods that help. But, even with all my education, compassion, psychotherapy, medication, and so on, it is still the rapid onset acute mania that trips me up.
There are no signs that I'm approaching madness. No flags pop up in the mind to warn me of the impending neurocatastrophy. Boom...it's just there. Even when I'm insane, I KNOW I'm NOT insane. I'm certain that my perceptions are correct even if I question their validity. I ask myself if I'm manic. But, at the time, I'm certain and I know that I'm not. I do not misbehave...I'm severly manic depressive with psychotic features. I work very hard at managing this disorder.
But, I suppose all the aforementioned is why society used to have the mentally ill chained down in tiny rooms of asylums, perform brain surgery to stop a patient who misbehaved.
I've run into many who truly believe that mental illness is a behavioral problem. All of these people were in the psychiatric health profession.
What Dr Bob has called a behavioral problem in Harry is not a chronic condition. Harry hasn't been coming to this board intentionally to do harm. Can you say that you've read elsewhere on this board and found that Harry was doing harm? This is an isolated case. A single issue was raised to which Harry responded passionately.
Can any of you say that there is not one issue in your life to which you've had a passionate response. An issue for which you or others insisted that you needed counsel. Whether that counsel came from a friend, a doctor, or your mother, makes no difference. Did you find help for that personally disturbing issue? Did those to whom you turned for counsel, whether it be that you turned to them in anger or in tears, abandon you?
I'm not insinuating that Harry has had an acute breakthrough manic episode that may have been triggered either multifactorially or as a result of rapid cycling and high lability.
It was yesterday that I finally realized that Harry needed help on this issue.
I'm sorry, Harry, that you were chastised, attacked, and abandoned. It was wrong. It never should have happened in this day of enlightened treatment for mental illnesses. I wish that I had realized sooner that you needed help with this issue. I wish that others had realized it, too.
I hope that I'm not misbehaving...really...not meant to be a fascicious statement. Should I even be writing about all this...my ideas...my concern? Is this issue taboo?
Nancy
> perhaps i also need to say what i forgot to mention...
>
> that this forum is a very powerful tool.. and while i don't condone name calling or personal attacks, i do appreciate the fact that many here stepped forward to contain any damage and correct any misunderstandings
>
> i think that this opportunity to take care of ourselves is a very valuable one... as well as the opportunity to perceive what someone is trying to say, even when the language may suggest something else... obviously, we all communicate differently - my english can be as much a foreign language to someone else as any other...
> it's good to have to sometimes see past ourselves and our fears in order to really hear someone else
>
> and for this as well, i ask that you not block harry from posting
>
> we all have so much to learn from one another
>
> v
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 11, 1999, at 10:52:49
In reply to Re: please help/ CALLING DR BOB YOU'RE NEEDED, NOW, posted by Nancy on April 10, 1999, at 17:21:35
> > are there any new meds on the horizon which do not cause weight gain?
> >
> > what can we do?????????????
>
> Is there medication a pdoc can add to REVERSE the horrendous weight problems that have been PROVEN to have been induced by one's psychotropic meds? ...
>
> Is there any known combination of meds that would keep the weight gain from occurring?I'm sorry, but I don't have any great answer to the above. A lot of the angles have already been covered here. As I think someone mentioned before, you can check Psychopharmacology Tips under "Eating, appetite, and weight problems" (one of the subject categories). There's some information there.
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 11, 1999, at 11:32:08
In reply to Re:misbehavior / please answer us, posted by v on April 11, 1999, at 5:26:30
> i agree with nancy that harry should have the same rights to express himself here and am asking that you please not censor him from participating...
He does have the same rights. But those rights are limited. And he went too far. If others go too far, it's the last thing I would want to do, but I would "censor" them, too.
A later post:
> this forum is a very powerful tool.. and while i don't condone name calling or personal attacks, i do appreciate the fact that many here stepped forward to contain any damage and correct any misunderstandings
Yes, and I think that's a wonderful thing about this forum, that people do take care of each other. But there's enough to help each other with already, I don't think we need name-calling, etc., added to that.
I consider it a priority that people feel safe here. Otherwise, it's not an atmosphere that's very conducive to support and education.
> we all have so much to learn from one another
We do. I meant it when I said before that I hope he finds this a learning experience.
And a post from Nancy:
> I agree with v. Furthermore, Harry has been supportive and helpful to me. Please, don't block him from this forum. His pain is very much a part of the disorder that he tries so hard to live with. I feel that he has been reaching out and aggressively seeking help from us.
I'm not saying he's never been helpful or didn't even in this case have good intentions or isn't in pain himself. But he was *too* "aggressive".
> I have rages when I'm manic. But, that is not who I am. I'm not "misbehaving" while I'm manic. I'm JUST MANIC.
I'm not sure I completely agree. Someone who's manic isn't necessarily *just* manic. They can also be manic *and* hurtful to others (or to themselves). I don't think it's always best just to let that go.
> I suppose all the aforementioned is why society used to have the mentally ill chained down in tiny rooms of asylums, perform brain surgery to stop a patient who misbehaved.
I suppose this is in fact on the same continuum as chaining someone down in a tiny room in an asylum, or performing brain surgery on them, but I hope it's not *quite* as bad...
> What Dr Bob has called a behavioral problem in Harry is not a chronic condition... Can you say that you've read elsewhere on this board and found that Harry was doing harm? This is an isolated case. A single issue was raised to which Harry responded passionately.
Well, I do think he went too far twice in this thread. I didn't do this after the first time. And I'm not saying I necessarily want to keep him blocked forever.
> Can any of you say that there is not one issue in your life to which you've had a passionate response. An issue for which you or others insisted that you needed counsel. Whether that counsel came from a friend, a doctor, or your mother, makes no difference. Did you find help for that personally disturbing issue? Did those to whom you turned for counsel, whether it be that you turned to them in anger or in tears, abandon you?
Whether someone you turn to abandons you can sometimes depend on the way in which you turn to them. Hopefully, that's the learning experience part of this.
> I hope that I'm not misbehaving...really...not meant to be a fascicious statement. Should I even be writing about all this...my ideas...my concern? Is this issue taboo?Writing about ideas and concerns -- or about how I deal with things -- is not taboo. Being disrespecful of others is.
Bob
Posted by Danielle on April 11, 1999, at 13:24:41
In reply to Re: misbehavior, posted by Dr. Bob on April 11, 1999, at 11:32:08
> > i agree with nancy that harry should have the same rights to express himself here and am asking that you please not censor him from participating...
>
> He does have the same rights. But those rights are limited. And he went too far. If others go too far, it's the last thing I would want to do, but I would "censor" them, too.
>
> A later post:
>
> > this forum is a very powerful tool.. and while i don't condone name calling or personal attacks, i do appreciate the fact that many here stepped forward to contain any damage and correct any misunderstandings
>
> Yes, and I think that's a wonderful thing about this forum, that people do take care of each other. But there's enough to help each other with already, I don't think we need name-calling, etc., added to that.
>
> I consider it a priority that people feel safe here. Otherwise, it's not an atmosphere that's very conducive to support and education.
>
> > we all have so much to learn from one another
>
> We do. I meant it when I said before that I hope he finds this a learning experience.
>
> And a post from Nancy:
>
> > I agree with v. Furthermore, Harry has been supportive and helpful to me. Please, don't block him from this forum. His pain is very much a part of the disorder that he tries so hard to live with. I feel that he has been reaching out and aggressively seeking help from us.
>
> I'm not saying he's never been helpful or didn't even in this case have good intentions or isn't in pain himself. But he was *too* "aggressive".
>
> > I have rages when I'm manic. But, that is not who I am. I'm not "misbehaving" while I'm manic. I'm JUST MANIC.
>
> I'm not sure I completely agree. Someone who's manic isn't necessarily *just* manic. They can also be manic *and* hurtful to others (or to themselves). I don't think it's always best just to let that go.
>
> > I suppose all the aforementioned is why society used to have the mentally ill chained down in tiny rooms of asylums, perform brain surgery to stop a patient who misbehaved.
>
> I suppose this is in fact on the same continuum as chaining someone down in a tiny room in an asylum, or performing brain surgery on them, but I hope it's not *quite* as bad...
>
> > What Dr Bob has called a behavioral problem in Harry is not a chronic condition... Can you say that you've read elsewhere on this board and found that Harry was doing harm? This is an isolated case. A single issue was raised to which Harry responded passionately.
>
> Well, I do think he went too far twice in this thread. I didn't do this after the first time. And I'm not saying I necessarily want to keep him blocked forever.
>
> > Can any of you say that there is not one issue in your life to which you've had a passionate response. An issue for which you or others insisted that you needed counsel. Whether that counsel came from a friend, a doctor, or your mother, makes no difference. Did you find help for that personally disturbing issue? Did those to whom you turned for counsel, whether it be that you turned to them in anger or in tears, abandon you?
>
> Whether someone you turn to abandons you can sometimes depend on the way in which you turn to them. Hopefully, that's the learning experience part of this.
>
> > I hope that I'm not misbehaving...really...not meant to be a fascicious statement. Should I even be writing about all this...my ideas...my concern? Is this issue taboo?
>
> Writing about ideas and concerns -- or about how I deal with things -- is not taboo. Being disrespecful of others is.
>
> BobBob
I agree with what you are saying and I thank you for what you are trying to do. Verbal abuse can be devastating, as many of us have experienced and can testify. I have found Harry's verbage to be remarkably similar to the abuse I suffered as a child, particularly his rationalization of it. I was told by my mother that my father's defense of his abuse was that he wanted me to be strong. Guess what - it had the opposite effect. Harry's posts are intentionally abusive, it won't do any good to try to reason with him. Fortunately, I don't have to be his audience. If you are unable to block him out, I can choose not to read his posts. First-timers won't be so fortunate. There have been others whose postings have come right up to the line of misbehavior in this forum, Harry is the first one to leap across it and leer at us from the other side.
Posted by Elaine on April 11, 1999, at 14:39:37
In reply to Re: misbehavior, posted by Danielle on April 11, 1999, at 13:24:41
Well put, Dr. Bob and Danielle. I almost put in my two cents but won't because it's already been said in other words. Your point about verbal abuse and especially your last sentence, Danielle, were well taken.
Posted by Appalled on April 11, 1999, at 16:17:11
In reply to Re: misbehavior, posted by harry on April 10, 1999, at 16:57:05
May I remind you of some of your own postings? (I do believe they were yours...)
>"PRIMUM NON NOCERE"....(above all else..do no harm)
I believe you have done a lot of harm here.
>Being "brought to task" in regards to the effects of one's words and actions is an ESSENTIAL part of GROWING UP.
Nancy has been your staunch defender, and more power to her, but maybe she needs to realize that maybe you are being brought to task so maybe YOU can grow up?
>A great part of "recovery", eg:change and development as a person..is recognizing our OWN selfishness and self-centeredness..
Your proud expression of self, no matter how negative and hurtful, seems pretty selfish to me. I hope you did mean that once we recognize our self-centeredness that is just a starting point and not to be wallowed in.
>All to often..."support" means expressing kindly sweet remarks regardless of the context of anothers writing/actions.
>TRUE LOVE invloves DISCIPLINE.I think "tough love" is the more appropriate phrase. But, remember, the word "love" is still part of the equation. Message boards do not always need to be fluffy and sweet. But, there is nothing wrong with kindness, you can say many meaningful things but still be kind. "Discipline" that takes the form of cruelty and abuse tend not to hit their mark; it is difficult to get the message if you're too busy pulling the dagger out. If this is the kind of discipline you have had and all you know, I am very sorry.
Now, it would be VERY interesting if you purposely posted like this to get us NOT to be sickeningly sweet and accepting! I think you succeeded!
I realize that you have your own baggage, Harry, and I hope you are getting whatever help you need. I hope somewhere along the way that you realize your arguments for why you should be able to say whatever you want, however you want, may not be productive to maintaining relationships.
Posted by Cindy on April 11, 1999, at 20:10:55
In reply to Re: misbehavior, posted by Dr. Bob on April 11, 1999, at 0:56:27
I would just like to say thank you Doc for your wise decision. People often get very angry at the world at points during recovery but they too have to learn that feeling anger and venting it in such hostile ways using foul language is not appropriate or fair to those seeking support. You have my vote and thanks for your attempts to keeping this board respectful and decent.> Doc...based on what you have posted here...i think what you may consider "mishaving" is actually "expression of self".
> >
> > You may have have better said..
> > .."I will have to find a way to keep people .. from ...".. getting better.
> >
> > One cannot shine a diamond with fancy velvet.
> > One uses a rough stone.
> > Interactions...ALL interactions..are experiences
> > of change, growth, development, and learning.
> >
> > Life is NOT always "nice"...
>
> I can understand your point of view. But my position would be that your expression of self doesn't promote the goals of this forum.
>
> So I've tried to block you from posting.
>
> If you think that interferes with your getting better, remember, life is not always nice and even this interaction may be an experience of change, growth, development, and learning.
>
> Bob
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