![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 6 to 30 of 51. Go back in thread:
Posted by David on March 5, 1999, at 5:51:42
In reply to Re: Skeptic about antidepressants and therapy..., posted by Elizabeth on March 4, 1999, at 19:42:04
Hello pej, Sean, and Elisabeth,
Thank you very much for your responses to my
message. It seems to me that I have finally
succeeded in coming across really considerate
people on the Net, people who have a good
understanding of what I'm talking about or
asking, people who seem to show a big deal of
empathy.I have some comments and possibly questions to
your responses and I will contact you later on.Thank you again.
Kind regards,
David
Posted by Carol on March 5, 1999, at 6:56:56
In reply to Skeptic about antidepressants and therapy..., posted by David on March 4, 1999, at 12:13:31
David,
It definitely sounds like you need a new doctor. There are always several ways to approach any problem, and a "pure" psychotherapy approach is probably the longest (and most expensive) way to try to deal with your problems. The immediate diagnoses that he gave you are surprising, since many doctors will refine a diagnosis over several sessions.It is very common now to use medications as an adjunct to therapy. There are some very good meds with much lower degrees of side effects than there were even 15 years ago. My personal experience is that I have not been able to keep my depression under control without the help of medications. When the meds stop working, then all the talk therapy in the world can't bring me out.
There are many types of therapy as well. I don't know what works for most people, but for me, a cognitive approach has been most helpful. This allows me to focus on my day-to-day activities, emphasizes coping and succeeding at daily activities, and in general, allows me to function like a "normal" person. The 2 or 3 times that doctors have tried to go back and do more traditional analysis with me haven't worked well, and have made the problem much worse. We all are viewing the world through our own set of lenses and filters, so even recalling the past is tricky because we're interpreting things, as well as remembering. Working on what's happpening in my life NOW, and how to learn to cope with wht might happen tomorrow has been much more useful.
You're at the beginning of a process. Sometimes the most difficult step is to recognize that you have a problem, and that you want to begin to solve it.
Good luck and stay in touch. This group has a variety of contributors, and a lot of different points of view.
Carol
Posted by Seedwoman on March 6, 1999, at 11:30:10
In reply to Re: Skeptic about antidepressants and therapy..., posted by Carol on March 5, 1999, at 6:56:56
David,
I, too, have suffered from depression for most of my life; usually "mild", but episodically severe. I too thought that my depressed state was just part of my nature. For the last 4 years, I have worked with a wonderful therapist who is also my psychiatrist. The therapy has been enormously helpful, allowing me to finally be at peace with myself. I have also been on antidepressants and am at the moment coming to terms with the fact that the work I do in therapy can only take me so far. In other words, there is a chemical basis to the depression and it is not resolvable through will power, talk, cognition, or any other psychosocial process. This was hard for me to accept at first. But I now understand that many aspects of my experience of the world--extreme social withdrawal, extreme sensitivity to rejection, emotional reactivity--are mood-related. I am emotionally very healthy, thanks to therapy, but only when the meds are working. When they are not, I slip back into the old patterns. My Dr. agrees that these traits are not some innate part of me but rather a function of the depression. So I would urge you to be wary of claims that your depressive symptoms are somehow "part of you" and not amenable to treatment. Investigate some options. Find a therapist you feel comfortable with, who can help you explore the deeper sources of your fear, anxiety, sadness. But accept that this may not be enough. Be persistent, try different meds if you need to. Your account reminds me of myself, and my life is now much better than I ever thought it could be. If you live with depression on an ongoing basis, as you and I do, you don't realize that there are other ways of being. Take it from me, there are. Don't give up.
best to you,
Seedwoman> David,
> It definitely sounds like you need a new doctor. There are always several ways to approach any problem, and a "pure" psychotherapy approach is probably the longest (and most expensive) way to try to deal with your problems. The immediate diagnoses that he gave you are surprising, since many doctors will refine a diagnosis over several sessions.
>
> It is very common now to use medications as an adjunct to therapy. There are some very good meds with much lower degrees of side effects than there were even 15 years ago. My personal experience is that I have not been able to keep my depression under control without the help of medications. When the meds stop working, then all the talk therapy in the world can't bring me out.
>
> There are many types of therapy as well. I don't know what works for most people, but for me, a cognitive approach has been most helpful. This allows me to focus on my day-to-day activities, emphasizes coping and succeeding at daily activities, and in general, allows me to function like a "normal" person. The 2 or 3 times that doctors have tried to go back and do more traditional analysis with me haven't worked well, and have made the problem much worse. We all are viewing the world through our own set of lenses and filters, so even recalling the past is tricky because we're interpreting things, as well as remembering. Working on what's happpening in my life NOW, and how to learn to cope with wht might happen tomorrow has been much more useful.
>
> You're at the beginning of a process. Sometimes the most difficult step is to recognize that you have a problem, and that you want to begin to solve it.
>
> Good luck and stay in touch. This group has a variety of contributors, and a lot of different points of view.
>
> Carol
Posted by Pat on March 6, 1999, at 13:28:49
In reply to Re: Skeptic about antidepressants and therapy..., posted by Seedwoman on March 6, 1999, at 11:30:10
Your note made a lot of sense to me. I've been trying to find an AD that would work for my depression/anxiety/insomnia for many months now. Everything I've tried has had side effects I couldn't tolerate. I was up until today ready to give up and accept that it's just my personality - I make myself unhappy - you know the drill. I'm seeing my psychiatrist on Tuesday. I was going to cancel and try to stay off all meds, but I'm having major anxiety today and that, together with your note, is making me rethink that. Could you either post a note or write me at PLucas119@aol.com if you get a chance and let me know what your experiences are with the different medications. I think Celexa might be the next step for me - it doesn't seem to have the side effects that have most affected me. I've already tried prozac, zoloft, paxil, deseryl, serzone, and remeron. The initial side effects for all these were too much for me to handle - I'm very suseptible to drugs. Anyway, I welcome comments or e mail from anyone who wants to.
Posted by Sean on March 6, 1999, at 14:24:54
In reply to Re: Skeptic - Seedwoman, posted by Pat on March 6, 1999, at 13:28:49
> Your note made a lot of sense to me. I've been trying to find an AD that would work for my depression/anxiety/insomnia for many months now. Everything I've tried has had side effects I couldn't tolerate. I was up until today ready to give up and accept that it's just my personality - I make myself unhappy - you know the drill. I'm seeing my psychiatrist on Tuesday. I was going to cancel and try to stay off all meds, but I'm having major anxiety today and that, together with your note, is making me rethink that. Could you either post a note or write me at PLucas119@aol.com if you get a chance and let me know what your experiences are with the different medications. I think Celexa might be the next step for me - it doesn't seem to have the side effects that have most affected me. I've already tried prozac, zoloft, paxil, deseryl, serzone, and remeron. The initial side effects for all these were too much for me to handle - I'm very suseptible to drugs. Anyway, I welcome comments or e mail from anyone who wants to.
Pat-
The SSRI's may not be the class of meds for you.
I find them *very* agitating and they bring on
both hypomanic states and insomnia for me. I
also have the usual sexual side effects and to
be honest, some of the "personality" side effects
were not exactly productive since I am an artist;
they made me extremely shallow.I know the "old" TCA drugs are not fashionable,
but I must say that amitrptyline really worked
for anxiety, insomnia, and depression for me. They
do have side effects, but if you work the dose up
slowly, they really aren't that bad. Personally,
I found the sedating aspect helpful at the time.
Posted by Pat on March 7, 1999, at 10:53:57
In reply to Re: Skeptic - Seedwoman, posted by Sean on March 6, 1999, at 14:24:54
Sean- What are you taking now? I have had terrible problems with insomnia, especially after stopping six years of triavil and then switching to ativan. I tried Zoloft and a few other drugs which caused me to have worse insomnia. I'm considering trying celexa when I see the doc this week. Have you tried that? From what I've read, insomnia is not supposed to be a big side effect for celexa. I've also had huge panic attacks from some drugs (serzone) and terrible GI symptoms (acid, burning, nausea) from Prozac. I've almost gotten to the point of giving up, but I've been experiencing feelings of anxiety recently and I don't think I can live with that, even if I could tolerate the depression and insomnia. Sorry to go on about this, but I'm not used to talking to people who understand this stuff (of course, my family thinks I should just "cheer up").
Posted by Gringo on March 8, 1999, at 4:46:09
In reply to Skeptic about antidepressants and therapy..., posted by David on March 4, 1999, at 12:13:31
> Hello everybody,
>
> I have been mildly depressed for a long long time,
> without actually knowing it. But it seems to me
> that it has been forever.
>
> But last year I had two bouts of severe depression in
> late spring and then again in winter. I could not make
> myself go and seek professional advice, hesitating all
> the time, "lingering on the edge," looking for excuses
> all the time (look there, it's not so bad, pull yourself
> together, there're lots and lots of other people that
> suffer much more... and stuff like that).
>
> Finally I managed somehow to walk into a psychologist's
> room, it was about the time, when my suffering lasted
> for about 2 months and I could no longer pretend that
> everything's fine with me (you know, all your friends
> asking "how are you?" and you saying with a warm
> smile "fine, thank you" but deep inside longing to
> scream to the world "miserable!!!").
>
> The psycholigist sent me to a psychiatrist to have some
> medication prescribed since I was to leave my home
> country to study in the Netherlands temporarily.
> I received a diagnosis of major depressive disorder,
> anxiety, depersonalization, derealization, and a few
> other things that I could not understand.
>
> The psychiatrist gave me Zoloft 50mg, twice a day and
> Lexaurin 1.5mg (Bromazepamum), a total dose of 3mg a
> day. At the same time he said that my depression
> has its roots in the structure of my personality, my
> character. And he added that a psychotherapy for me
> would be difficult and complicated.
>
> I had been skeptical about medicines for depression as
> well as any kind of conventional psychotherapy before,
> although never actually tried them (I had always
> really doubted that they could be of any help to me...
> maybe I had some kind of prejudice...? I don't know.)
> and now the psychiatrist, although being honest,
> even enhanced these worries in me!
>
> I have been on Zoloft and Lexaurin for 2 months now,
> I can see a slight improvement (I have enough energy
> to pretend again that everything's all right...) but
> very often I slip into despair as to whether there
> really is any kind of help for me? Any positive vision
> of the future, I mean bright future? I don't know...
>
> I have a very intense feeling that these antidepressant
> drugs just suppress the underlying causes of the
> state of my mental health without really "removing"
> them. Maybe the most severe symptoms disappear so I
> can get through a day somehow...
>
> But I am sure I do not want to switch to any other
> kind of pills and then to some other pills and on
> and on... and although in psychotherapy it might
> be nice to have an opportunity to talk to somebody
> (especially when my social life is and has for a long
> time been virtually non-existent), I don't believe
> I can make any progress.
>
> What do you think?
>
> Thank you that you have endured to read up to this
> point.
>
> Good luck to everyone,
>
> David
Hello there,I wrote quite a long post here but now decided to delete it and send you only the
core of it.
TODAY's TREATMENT OF DEPRESSION IS ABSOLUTELLY SHALLOW
IF YOU'RE(ALL) TO GET RID OF YOUR DEPRESSION YOU NEED TO GO TO THE DEEPEST ROOTS OF YOUR SELFOne of the most frequent advices here is to try one med after another until there's the "right" one...
To get rid of depression means usually to do something for it, to study about it, to get to know about it as much as possible,
I am surprised none of you ever mentioned one pill (together with psychotherapy) which is one of the
most powerfull and has the ability to bring you to your roots, I am talking about lsd which most of you
know only as a prohibited substance but only a few of you ever read books like "LSD psychotherapy" or
"LSD - Problem solving substance"... which you can find on Internet. There are also other ways to get to
the origin of the problem but that means usually to face YOURSELF "NAKED" and release that tremendous pressure which you
bear deep within yourselves. Get the facts, don't judge like propaganda, demand the right psychotherapy for you. There were
depressions before there are now, what's the progress? New meds which nobody knows how they work, but well, they do sell well...however,
this wasn't meant to say this.David, I'd say there's enough power in you to walk into other psychotherapist's door
who knows lots about Grof's attitude and you *might* be successful in persuading him
about psychedelic therapy if you will not be willing to undergone
holotropic therapy...anyway, you must come home first..Yours,
Bradda
Posted by David on March 8, 1999, at 5:25:05
In reply to Re: Skeptic about antidepressants and therapy..., posted by Gringo on March 8, 1999, at 4:46:09
Hi Gringo,
for obvious reasons you posted the anonymous
message, so I haven't got your e-mail address.
Anyway, if you come across this site one day
again, please read this message and send me your
e-mail to R.Dojcak@kub.nl or rd_david@hotmail.com.
I think we've got a lot to talk about/discuss.
(On the other hand, you might say, what's more
there to discuss...?)
I definitely have read the Adventure of Self
Discovery as well as Cosmic Game by Stan Grof
and I am also currently reading
LSD Psychotherapy... as well as E is for Ecstasy
by Nicholas Saunders... which of course is a thing
that you don't come up with in the first place
when you're posting a message to this babble for
the first time...Send me your address for sure. Thanks.
David
PS: Did you know that here in the Netherlands you
could LEGALLY get psychedelic mushrooms (just like
weed)? Does this hint "light up a bulb?" I am
looking for THE right therapist...> Hello there,
>
> I wrote quite a long post here but now decided to delete it and send you only the
> core of it.
> TODAY's TREATMENT OF DEPRESSION IS ABSOLUTELLY SHALLOW
> IF YOU'RE(ALL) TO GET RID OF YOUR DEPRESSION YOU NEED TO GO TO THE DEEPEST ROOTS OF YOUR SELF
>
> One of the most frequent advices here is to try one med after another until there's the "right" one...
> To get rid of depression means usually to do something for it, to study about it, to get to know about it as much as possible,
> I am surprised none of you ever mentioned one pill (together with psychotherapy) which is one of the
> most powerfull and has the ability to bring you to your roots, I am talking about lsd which most of you
> know only as a prohibited substance but only a few of you ever read books like "LSD psychotherapy" or
> "LSD - Problem solving substance"... which you can find on Internet. There are also other ways to get to
> the origin of the problem but that means usually to face YOURSELF "NAKED" and release that tremendous pressure which you
> bear deep within yourselves. Get the facts, don't judge like propaganda, demand the right psychotherapy for you. There were
> depressions before there are now, what's the progress? New meds which nobody knows how they work, but well, they do sell well...however,
> this wasn't meant to say this.
>
> David, I'd say there's enough power in you to walk into other psychotherapist's door
> who knows lots about Grof's attitude and you *might* be successful in persuading him
> about psychedelic therapy if you will not be willing to undergone
> holotropic therapy...anyway, you must come home first..
>
> Yours,
>
> Bradda
Posted by pej on March 8, 1999, at 7:44:01
In reply to Re: Skeptic about antidepressants and therapy..., posted by David on March 8, 1999, at 6:18:46
> Dear David,
Seems you have found a soulmate with Dumbo..I'm sorry, Gringo. Why not come back in a year and let me know how your "therapy" is going.
Also Dumbo, who are you to assume to know what I have read or done?
> Hi Gringo,
> >
> > for obvious reasons you posted the anonymous
> > message, so I haven't got your e-mail address.
> > Anyway, if you come across this site one day
> > again, please read this message and send me your
> > e-mail to rd_david@hotmail.com.
> > I think we've got a lot to talk about/discuss.
> > (On the other hand, you might say, what's more
> > there to discuss...?)
> > I definitely have read the Adventure of Self
> > Discovery as well as Cosmic Game by Stan Grof
> > and I am also currently reading
> > LSD Psychotherapy... as well as E is for Ecstasy
> > by Nicholas Saunders... (Chapter 9: The use of
> > MDMA in psychotherapy in Swithzerland)...
> > which of course is a thing
> > that you don't come up with in the first place
> > when you're posting a message to this babble for
> > the first time...
> >
> > Send me your address for sure. Thanks.
> >
> > David
> >
> > PS: Did you know that here in the Netherlands you
> > could LEGALLY get psychedelic mushrooms (just like
> > weed)? I am looking for THE right therapist...
> >
> > > Hello there,
> > >
> > > I wrote quite a long post here but now decided to delete it and send you only the
> > > core of it.
> > > TODAY's TREATMENT OF DEPRESSION IS ABSOLUTELLY SHALLOW
> > > IF YOU'RE(ALL) TO GET RID OF YOUR DEPRESSION YOU NEED TO GO TO THE DEEPEST ROOTS OF YOUR SELF
> > >
> > > One of the most frequent advices here is to try one med after another until there's the "right" one...
> > > To get rid of depression means usually to do something for it, to study about it, to get to know about it as much as possible,
> > > I am surprised none of you ever mentioned one pill (together with psychotherapy) which is one of the
> > > most powerfull and has the ability to bring you to your roots, I am talking about lsd which most of you
> > > know only as a prohibited substance but only a few of you ever read books like "LSD psychotherapy" or
> > > "LSD - Problem solving substance"... which you can find on Internet. There are also other ways to get to
> > > the origin of the problem but that means usually to face YOURSELF "NAKED" and release that tremendous pressure which you
> > > bear deep within yourselves. Get the facts, don't judge like propaganda, demand the right psychotherapy for you. There were
> > > depressions before there are now, what's the progress? New meds which nobody knows how they work, but well, they do sell well...however,
> > > this wasn't meant to say this.
> > >
> > > David, I'd say there's enough power in you to walk into other psychotherapist's door
> > > who knows lots about Grof's attitude and you *might* be successful in persuading him
> > > about psychedelic therapy if you will not be willing to undergone
> > > holotropic therapy...anyway, you must come home first..
> > >
> > > Yours,
> > >
> > > Bradda
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 8, 1999, at 9:16:58
In reply to Re: Skeptic -Dear soulmates, posted by pej on March 8, 1999, at 7:44:01
> Seems you have found a soulmate with Dumbo..
Please, differences of opinion are understandable, but let's be civil about them.
Bob
Posted by Pat on March 8, 1999, at 12:38:00
In reply to Dear boardmates, posted by Dr. Bob on March 8, 1999, at 9:16:58
Just to comment on this lsd and other drugs - I feel that being depressed just naturally makes people want to get high. If your depression is properly treated, you don't need drugs to get high anymore. It's just so hard to get your depression properly treated....
Posted by Jim on March 8, 1999, at 17:54:39
In reply to Skeptic about antidepressants and therapy..., posted by David on March 4, 1999, at 12:13:31
David wrote:
>The psychiatrist gave me Zoloft 50mg, twice a day
>Lexaurin 1.5mg (Bromazepamum), a total dose of
>3mg a day. At the same time he said that my
>depression has its roots in the structure of my
>personality, my character. And he added that a
>psychotherapy for me would be difficult and
>complicated.Hmm... perhaps he meant the kind of *character*
that decides that chronic depression gets cured
through the primrose path of psychedelic healing?
If so, I wish you all the best with your pursuits,
Dave! ;-)- Jim
Posted by Pat on March 8, 1999, at 18:03:14
In reply to Re: Skeptic about antidepressants/drugs?, posted by Jim on March 8, 1999, at 17:54:39
Jim - Very cool response. Wish I'd thought of that. :)
Posted by Gringo on March 9, 1999, at 5:48:15
In reply to Re: Skeptic -Dear soulmates, posted by pej on March 8, 1999, at 7:44:01
> > Dear David,
> Seems you have found a soulmate with Dumbo..I'm sorry, Gringo. Why not come back in a year and let me know how your "therapy" is going.
> Also Dumbo, who are you to assume to know what I have read or done?Dear Pej,
first of all thank you for responding and also thank to Dr. Bob for
reminding about being civil. Dear Pej, I just expressed an opinion which is
far different from yours but that doesn't mean you should call me dumb and
and also link David to being dumb as well.First, let me ask you a question. have you ever experienced the state of mind under
any of the wide range of psychedelics? I say you haven't. I do not judge. You teach others
how to swim without even touching the water, without being in it, without knowing how to swim.
In my post I begged, please, get the facts, do not judge according to being influenced by propaganda.
But anyway, your opinion I respect.I wish peace to your mind which has a long way ahead...please, do not argue, once you'll see.
How qucikly you'll see that depends on YOU.Anyway, I did not want to bring confusion and arguing here, I do appologise for expressing
my opinion the way that may look aggressive to someone. I just wanted to "introduce" a different, though minor, view.But I insist on the *fact* that there are
way deeper inner realms in each of us and so is in you, Pej, although you probably doesn't want to
agree with it nor even think about it. If you go on
switching from one *drug* to another and do not search for more then you'll only
put a great patch onto the hole in your nice and peaceful but wounded soul.I really do not know how much you read but you've told it to me now. Please, I'd do a lot to
heal you, you do one thing for me - read a book written by Dr. Grof "LSD Psychotherapy". For sure you
haven't read it. No, it's not like buying a drug - buying or borrowing that book, there's pure science in it
and 25 years of research. And if you had ever a chance to ask any of hundreds of psychiatrists who participated
in that research, vast majority of them (as there are opinion differences, aren't there?) would tell you they never saw
more powerful tool to remove mind blockages and depressions. (And for example you would read about cases when people with
total depression, unable to participate in the society anymore, who were to be sent to "sanatoriums" forever to wait for the end there,
were given psychedelic therapy and after comleting it were able to find jobs and spouses...). Please, read that book, only for the reason
to enlarge the field of your knowledge about depression. Thank you. You also might say that all these psychiatrists got addicted to lsd but
then the blocks on your mind would be great.And finally, if you got until here, I also would like to "announce" you (because obviously you haven't read much about it)
that there are nations who use *occasionally* strong psychedelics and are, in comparison with the civilised western society, able to
keep them under control even if these psychedelics grow from the ground in the front of a shelter.
There were hundreds of researches on drugs but you never got the facts because your country is in "war", and in war an "enemy" is necessary. Please,
go and ask your Mr. President how much does Drug enforcement agency spend every year and then go and get some statistics how much your country
was successful in decreasing the drug use and deaths related to drugs. Surprise - use of drugs and drug deaths have increased. Did you know it? I suppose
you didn't but what you probably know is "all drugs=death". It's not your fault, I am sorry if I was too "sci-fi"-like.I wish all of you would get rid of your depressions. You, Pej, are probably a "hard head" and I am just waisting time here but
you told me to come in a year and tell you how I am. You don't know anything about me (though you put me in a bag together with dumbs and drug addicted people -
am I right?) just like I don't know anything about you. But I do not need a year, if I had a depression it wouldn't take longer than 2-3 months to become
a "newborn" human being. (Guess what - did you know that psychotherapy lasting a year is one of the best businesses in the usa? It lasts for a long long time
and that brings incomes...) But I can tell you that my depression was probably slowly showing up, but that was that period when you only start to see that people around you
are slightly "different" and you have nothing to say to them and you start realizing that... I've undergone a holotropic breathwork session (ever read about it?) which will put
your mind into an unordinary expanded state which is very similar to lsd state of the mind. But in this case there are no drugs! Surprise? That must be crazy...yes, I can hear that alreay.
But what someone here called "you want to get high when depressed..." (which is ridiculous in case of lsd or any unordinary state of consciousness...) is in fact looking at your life
and powerful releasing of enormous press that "dwells" inside of you since being born. If you knew me, I'd tell you my story and how I feel after
one such session. That's all, no drugs, but this is mostly the same way as use of lsd. So please, do not throw
something in a garbage bin without even knowing anything about it.It would be much more nice and beneficial to discuss in a peaceful atmosphere and contributing with our own
experience to help others. Thank you.Regards,
Gringo
Posted by Seedwoman on March 9, 1999, at 10:50:20
In reply to Re: Skeptic -Dear soulmates, posted by Gringo on March 9, 1999, at 5:48:15
in response to Gringo's post:
having had experience with hallucinogens as well as psychotherapy and anitdepressants, I would like to add my own 2 cents' worth.
there are no significant insights about the self that can't be accessed without recourse to psychotropic substances. True, such substances (of whatever type) may facilitate the process by removing inhibitions or improving mood enough so that difficult issues can be confronted. However, the individual does the work, not the drug. In my experience, hallucinogens create extremes of mood and perception that are not conducive to self discovery or lasting transformation.
this generalization may not apply in other cultural contexts. extreme experiences brought about by chemicals (or fasting or other deprivation) may indeed be healing, but they require a highly skilled guide. to some extent this is true of all psychotropic substances, including antidepressants, but hallucinogens create what seems to be a kind of temporary psychosis & for that reason can be especially dangerous.
I would certainly not recommend that anyone mess with hallucinogens and my own experience says they are more harmful than helpful for someone who is in a vulnerable state, such as one of clinical depression or anxiety.
Posted by David on March 9, 1999, at 13:04:28
In reply to Re: Skeptic -hallucinogenics, posted by Seedwoman on March 9, 1999, at 10:50:20
Hello everybody,
Having read all the debate above and sometimes
not explicitly civil arguments I realized that
the thread that I started has taken on
an undesirable direction for some of us...The next time I'd better not be skeptic about
antidepressants and therapy...Thank you all.
David
Posted by Jim on March 9, 1999, at 17:59:48
In reply to Re: Skeptic? Not anymore..., posted by David on March 9, 1999, at 13:04:28
Pardon the sarcasm, Dave (if you're there)...
For my part, I do lend my support to
Seedwoman's very sensible position and
cautions about psychedelics, however.
I'll even throw in another 2 cents and
venture the claim that people with
depression/anxiety problems should be
*extremely* careful tinkering with such
stuff for good reason: the serotonin-related
actions of LSD can pack an unpredictable
wallop for people whose receptors have been
conditioned into a heightened sensitivity!
Talk about playing with fire...
Posted by Elizabeth on March 9, 1999, at 22:24:41
In reply to Re: Skeptic - Seedwoman, posted by Sean on March 6, 1999, at 14:24:54
Pat,
You may want to start at a very low dose and then increase it *slowly*. Many people have a hard time dealing with the side effects of antidepressants at first; the good news is that most of the side effects get better with time, and if you start low and go slow, you may never have any side effects at al.
-elizabeth
Posted by Elizabeth on March 9, 1999, at 23:14:18
In reply to Re: Skeptic? Not anymore..., posted by Jim on March 9, 1999, at 17:59:48
Nobody knows how LSD works any more than any of the antidepressants. There is even some confusion, apparently, about its action at serotonin receptors (is it a 5-HT2 agonist or antagonsist? I've heard both from equally respectable sources).
It's an interesting drug. I would be very cautious about taking it if you are very emotional (anxious, agitated, tearful, etc.) as a feature of your depression, as it tends to intensify whatever you happen to be feeling already.
On the other hand I will say that I know of an individual who dropped acid as a last-ditch attempt to crawl out of "the hole" while feeling extremely suicidal. This person stayed in a safe environment with other people around who knew she was tripping, and managed to get through the experience and feel somewhat better for a while afterwards. It wasn't a permanent effect, and she said she would not do it again, but it did work (both in her subjective experience, and based on what others observed) for a little while (and it probably kept her out of the hospital).
I also knew of a guy who took LSD alone while depressed and jumped off a building.
Sadly, just as predicted, many people here are falling into the trap of judgementalness (is that a word?). Try to stick to the facts. LSD is a drug just like Prozac and Parnate and Remeron and imipramine are drugs. People do take it to get high, but that does not mean that getting high is its only use. People also take drugs like Xanax and Valium to get high.
Pej: I was particularly upset by your need to resort to name-calling. There is no need, nor any excuse, for that.
Seedwoman: I wouldn't call the state of a person on LSD a "psychosis," in that the person has *insight* - he or she is aware that a drug is causing the odd effects. A psychotic person does not have insight. He or she will believe, no matter what, in the reality of the perceptions (hallucinations) and beliefs (delusions) that he or she is experiencing.
Pat says:
>I feel that being depressed just naturally makes people want to get high.That's not my experience of being depressed, although I know that there are some people who become very impulsive and "thrill-seeking" when depressed. But anyway, I don't think that LSD psychotherapy uses LSD as a "high." I'm taking a drug for depression that works similarly to morphine (an opioid) - that doesn't mean I'm using it to get "high," and in fact, it doesn't make me high. I'm taking it as prescribed under the care of a physician. Although I don't know too much about LSD therapy, I believe it is the same way: that is, it is not something you do on your own, but rather it involves being guided through the "trip" by your therapist.
I hope people will try to take a rational look at this interesting issue. Amd David, I hope the behavior of one or two people here did not scare you off permanently.
-Elizabeth
Posted by Gringo on March 10, 1999, at 1:50:47
In reply to LSD therapy & stuff, posted by Elizabeth on March 9, 1999, at 23:14:18
Hey there!
This was like a warm breeze on my soul, seeing that there actually are people having information. And also I'd like to thank you Elizabeth for addressing most of the uncorrect expressions in above messages. (Excellent point about "other" drugs like prozac etc...)
I was not going to go on with this because sometimes you simply cannot make things clearer and people won't see. I only wanted to add that being rude and sarcastic in responses to the question of a man in depression is probably the best to describe the attitude of those people. Anyway, let them walk in peace.
Just to add a little bit to your message, there is excellent theoretical basis for lsd *therapy* in a book with the same name, I mentioned it in previous message. Maybe I did not make it clear enough in my first post so that it might have seemed that I meant to try lsd on people's own... which is in no way recommended!
I was just trying to speak about *directed* psychotherpay, even David mentioned in his post that he was looking for a psychotherapist eager to perform a psychedelic therapy.(there are such people, though ballancing on the edge of illegal activity, but eager to do that, don't you know why...? there is a psychotherapist using illegaly ibogaine to treat opiate addictions, because she got rid of such addiction after one directed session with ibogaine...of course she is not in the usa...)
Of course, do not try to take any of the psychedelics on your own, especially when you're depressed and alone. That is the worst condition for such activity ever.
In short, when in psychedelic therapy, the very first time people are introduced and informed with possible effects of the substance and patients are diagnosed by a psychotherpaist, there are certain condiitons not allowing a person to undergone such a therpay - these people are not allowed to participate. People are chosen depending on their diagnosis and other criteria, for example a "certain intellectual capacity" is required. People can base their opinion on what they have heard and decide whether to chose or not such a therapy. If a person choses it, the session is conducted in a peaceful and relaxed atmosphere, person
lying on a bed under a cover, with "ambient" relaxing music in the background...and speaking to the therapist from time to time, although there are variations to this. It actually is true that the mechanisms of "protection" (sorry, non-english person i am and do not know all these words in english) are totally weakend, they are weakend to the rate which spoken psychotherapy reaches *very rarely*. In such a therapy a therapist is bringing a patient slowly step by step to the age of let's say three years, to the age of a strong emotional deprivation, to make him remind it, face it
and finally "solve it" (someone breaks into tears, someone may be angry etc.) One wrong step and all the effort is gone, there's too much rational mind in it, a patient protects him even before himself. These mechanisms are put aside and with minimum effort the patient can come to such areas of his own life, that ordinary thereapy would reach after half a year or even longer. Anyway, some of you will say I am too fascinated by a drug use, but I say this is more radical but more effective way of solving one's own miseries. The patient is not there to see colorful illusions, he's there to go deep inside himself
and with a help of unordinanry state of consciousness that "sinking inside" and releasing that material is much easier. Of course there certainly are disadvantages of this type of therapy, aggressive reactions of uninformed people here being the first one... One of the most frequent objections is that lsd intoxication lasts fot too long but there are ways to bring the patient back when something turns wrong. So there are efforts in researching other, less powerful substances allowing deep introspection and insights. And whether some of you will go to panick or not, swiss institutes are actually on the way of researching mdma, which most of you probably heard of as "ecstasy", which is misused and abused by
teenagers and youngsters in rave parties. Speaking about the drug policy is not an issue here. And swiss scientists have got the "bliss" of their government, if Switzerland was depending on the international business contacts with the usa (it is not), I'd worry about that research because it might be well forbidden in near future...well, but that's also not an issue.I could go on with this for longer but there's quite nice amount of information there and if somebody's interested, get the facts. Try to search for new ways of treatment, standing on different basis. Your ever-all-knowing science doesn't even exactly know why you're in depression because it looks for the reasons where there are no explanations. And, as I said before, today's science understands depressions and other disorders as sicknesses having organical reasons in one's brain. Actually, depression is a state when a person in their life came to the point where unreleased unconscious underlying material is sponatneously released to certain, usually small extent. Instead of allowing you to release that material always affecting your life considerably science gave you
drugs to "push it back", while therapist encourages you to speak about it, which makes a pretty mess, don't you think? After all, you're not only victims of emotional lackness in your lives, you're victims of today's science and profit-based healthcare services. Is that ok?OK, that's all from me, if you have comments, I'd appreciate them. Please, think about things and try to imagine that you're not so fully relying on the "wisdom" of the western science (I am not denying the successes of it, but these days it turned out somehow wrong, but to realize that you'd have to grow up somewhere else than in usa)
Regards,Gringo
Posted by David on March 10, 1999, at 4:51:25
In reply to Re: Skeptic about antidepressants/drugs?, posted by Jim on March 8, 1999, at 17:54:39
> David wrote:
>
> >The psychiatrist gave me Zoloft 50mg, twice a day
> >Lexaurin 1.5mg (Bromazepamum), a total dose of
> >3mg a day. At the same time he said that my
> >depression has its roots in the structure of my
> >personality, my character. And he added that a
> >psychotherapy for me would be difficult and
> >complicated.
>
> Hmm... perhaps he meant the kind of *character*
> that decides that chronic depression gets cured
> through the primrose path of psychedelic healing?Well, actually NO, he attributed it to Avoidance
Personality Disorder that he diagnosed in me.
> If so, I wish you all the best with your pursuits,
> Dave! ;-)
>
> - JimDo you think that any person in general who
considers psychedelics (ooohh ... they are
scary!) as a last resort to finding solution
to his/her misery deserves treatment, professional
advice, understanding and support of human beings
around him/her or mockery, rejection, denial, and
condemnation...?
Consider your attitude... does it reflect all the
human warmth, understanding, tolerance, empathy,
and love within you?This post seems to be outdated, since you have
already apologized, but anyway, just try
contemplating a little while for yourself...Wishing you all the best,
David
Posted by Gringo on March 10, 1999, at 5:30:23
In reply to Re: Skeptic about antidepressants and therapy..., posted by pej on March 4, 1999, at 16:16:28
Pej in his message wrote:
>First of all, therapy is hard for anyone! That's why people resist it and why they give up so fast.
>They realize it is a painful journey and want no part of it. We all have behaviors that make our recovery difficult because we are all human beings.This seems to be your fundamental understanding of why the therapy is so difficult. No wonder, if you ask anybody, most of people would say the same. But there is an expression hidden
that causes unability to doubt it and think about different things. That frequent and yet *powerful* expression 'we are all human beings...' And it's said so and never will or can be different, we are those poor human beings and it's written in our genes
that we are like that and therefore it's usual that people *protect* themselves against facing the "painful journey". Never, no doubts? It's a generally spread belief but that doesn't necessarily mean it's right, plus when
it's supported by wisdom-patent having science unable to help people. Because depresson as well as many other diagnosis are far beyond the scope of the science and beyond of what science is able to take as 'scientifical'. We grew up in such conditions
but that doesn't mean we could not doubt it. You're obviously talking about those 'self-protection mind mechanisms' that won't let you in and won't let you face what's hidden inside.
And unordinary state of consciousness (denied by you when denied lsd as a drug for junkies on the streets) , induced either by psychedelics or by other methods is what *will* let you in, it will even
release the blocks resident within you and it *will not* give you(or your ego) too many chances to protect.Just a little thought about being undoubtful. It's shocking to see how all these people here discuss about switching from the fourth med to fifth and combining them together (and accepting all the side effects) without even a pinch of a thought 'what if..?'. Maybe that is different from what I say but your discussions are showing only this.
I do not want to convince you about my opinions here, I'd like to inform you a little bit and to tell you that it's probably a neverending circle you're rushing around and many people will in near future.An idea to think about:
Did you know that turnover of meds producing companies reach hundreds of millions of dollars every year? And did you ever hear of marketing practises and 'co-operation' between such companies and docs? No? These are the facts that common people are not to hear about, it's said in most of the internal 'Public relations' materials of such companies.
Okey, that's business, well, if a detergents producing company makes millions of profit every year... you could say. But this is about people and their mental health. Did you know that the usa are known as the country with the strongest influence of profit making in health care sector?Regards,
Gringo
Posted by Pat on March 10, 1999, at 7:39:34
In reply to Re: Skeptic about antidepressants/drugs?, posted by David on March 10, 1999, at 4:51:25
Sorry for my part in the controversy. I still think psychedelics are extremely dangerous no matter who is handling them, but I'm realizing from the posts that people certainly have a right to seek out any legitimate treatment when they are sick. I should not have spoken at all, since you guys are all obviously way more informed about all this stuff than I.
Posted by pej on March 10, 1999, at 8:06:12
In reply to Re: LSD therapy & stuff, posted by Gringo on March 10, 1999, at 1:50:47
>>First of all, thank you Elizabeth for the additional shame for my name calling. I do believe Dr. Bob had already addressed it.
The reason this whole thing set me off is that David appeared to be more excited about the acid than the acid/therapy.
Gringo, I dropped acid, mescaline, mushrooms, peyote, etc. many times in the early seventies.
These drugs, at their best, do give insight impossible to understand unless you've tried them.
However, in all my years of recovery I have yet to meet one person who has benefitted from this type of therapy.
I enjoy your enthusiasm but impressionable people can easily be misled. Give me tangible, not in a book but a real person, proof that this works long term for depression and I will cruise over to Sixth St. here in Austin and get us all a bucketload of acid.
Hey there!
>
> This was like a warm breeze on my soul, seeing that there actually are people having information. And also I'd like to thank you Elizabeth for addressing most of the uncorrect expressions in above messages. (Excellent point about "other" drugs like prozac etc...)
>
> I was not going to go on with this because sometimes you simply cannot make things clearer and people won't see. I only wanted to add that being rude and sarcastic in responses to the question of a man in depression is probably the best to describe the attitude of those people. Anyway, let them walk in peace.
>
> Just to add a little bit to your message, there is excellent theoretical basis for lsd *therapy* in a book with the same name, I mentioned it in previous message. Maybe I did not make it clear enough in my first post so that it might have seemed that I meant to try lsd on people's own... which is in no way recommended!
> I was just trying to speak about *directed* psychotherpay, even David mentioned in his post that he was looking for a psychotherapist eager to perform a psychedelic therapy.(there are such people, though ballancing on the edge of illegal activity, but eager to do that, don't you know why...? there is a psychotherapist using illegaly ibogaine to treat opiate addictions, because she got rid of such addiction after one directed session with ibogaine...of course she is not in the usa...)
> Of course, do not try to take any of the psychedelics on your own, especially when you're depressed and alone. That is the worst condition for such activity ever.
> In short, when in psychedelic therapy, the very first time people are introduced and informed with possible effects of the substance and patients are diagnosed by a psychotherpaist, there are certain condiitons not allowing a person to undergone such a therpay - these people are not allowed to participate. People are chosen depending on their diagnosis and other criteria, for example a "certain intellectual capacity" is required. People can base their opinion on what they have heard and decide whether to chose or not such a therapy. If a person choses it, the session is conducted in a peaceful and relaxed atmosphere, person
> lying on a bed under a cover, with "ambient" relaxing music in the background...and speaking to the therapist from time to time, although there are variations to this. It actually is true that the mechanisms of "protection" (sorry, non-english person i am and do not know all these words in english) are totally weakend, they are weakend to the rate which spoken psychotherapy reaches *very rarely*. In such a therapy a therapist is bringing a patient slowly step by step to the age of let's say three years, to the age of a strong emotional deprivation, to make him remind it, face it
> and finally "solve it" (someone breaks into tears, someone may be angry etc.) One wrong step and all the effort is gone, there's too much rational mind in it, a patient protects him even before himself. These mechanisms are put aside and with minimum effort the patient can come to such areas of his own life, that ordinary thereapy would reach after half a year or even longer. Anyway, some of you will say I am too fascinated by a drug use, but I say this is more radical but more effective way of solving one's own miseries. The patient is not there to see colorful illusions, he's there to go deep inside himself
> and with a help of unordinanry state of consciousness that "sinking inside" and releasing that material is much easier. Of course there certainly are disadvantages of this type of therapy, aggressive reactions of uninformed people here being the first one... One of the most frequent objections is that lsd intoxication lasts fot too long but there are ways to bring the patient back when something turns wrong. So there are efforts in researching other, less powerful substances allowing deep introspection and insights. And whether some of you will go to panick or not, swiss institutes are actually on the way of researching mdma, which most of you probably heard of as "ecstasy", which is misused and abused by
> teenagers and youngsters in rave parties. Speaking about the drug policy is not an issue here. And swiss scientists have got the "bliss" of their government, if Switzerland was depending on the international business contacts with the usa (it is not), I'd worry about that research because it might be well forbidden in near future...well, but that's also not an issue.
>
> I could go on with this for longer but there's quite nice amount of information there and if somebody's interested, get the facts. Try to search for new ways of treatment, standing on different basis. Your ever-all-knowing science doesn't even exactly know why you're in depression because it looks for the reasons where there are no explanations. And, as I said before, today's science understands depressions and other disorders as sicknesses having organical reasons in one's brain. Actually, depression is a state when a person in their life came to the point where unreleased unconscious underlying material is sponatneously released to certain, usually small extent. Instead of allowing you to release that material always affecting your life considerably science gave you
> drugs to "push it back", while therapist encourages you to speak about it, which makes a pretty mess, don't you think? After all, you're not only victims of emotional lackness in your lives, you're victims of today's science and profit-based healthcare services. Is that ok?
>
> OK, that's all from me, if you have comments, I'd appreciate them. Please, think about things and try to imagine that you're not so fully relying on the "wisdom" of the western science (I am not denying the successes of it, but these days it turned out somehow wrong, but to realize that you'd have to grow up somewhere else than in usa)
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Gringo
Posted by Jim on March 10, 1999, at 9:22:32
In reply to Re: Skeptic about antidepressants/drugs?, posted by David on March 10, 1999, at 4:51:25
Once again, Dave, I apologize if my comments were hurtful to you. As pej wrote, it came mostly from the sense (perhaps mistaken) that you seemed more excited about the drugs themselves than in the actual therapy side of things. Having had my share of experience with various substances in the past, I have a built-in skepticism about their therapeutic potential in restoring people's overall well-being, even after having read numerous claims and reports to the contrary. And I'm not sure I'd even agree with the easy assertion made by some people here that, hey, Prozac is a drug just like lysergic acid is. Granted, they are both drugs, and just because something is legal doesn't mean that its perfectly safe--hardly!. But their mode of action (not to mention the chronic effects) of both substances is different enough to justify their different status in the world today, even when we all know that the so-called "war on drugs" has mostly been a pathetic sham. But everyone eventually has to follow their own inner voice with these things.
With this said, I wish you all the best--in all sincerity this time.
--Jim
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