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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Dinah on April 27, 2003, at 13:43:14
In reply to I'm so sorry » Dinah, posted by judy1 on April 26, 2003, at 22:42:01
And no, it didn't upset me. You are right about secrets and power.
You take care as well.
Dinah
Posted by Cecilia on April 28, 2003, at 1:59:07
In reply to Well... (unpleasantly graphic and overdisclosing), posted by Dinah on April 25, 2003, at 20:14:02
I`m another person with every symptom in the book of having experienced childhood sexual abuse, but no memories. (and I never got any in 7 years of therapy). But Dinah, I have to say this story triggers incredibly loud warning bells in me. First the self blame-that if something happened it was because you insisted on wearing the tight shorts. Your caretakers were responsible for what you wore-not you. Second, the adult denial/dismissal. Tight shorts don`t cause bleeding. Third, that at this age you were wandering around apparently unsupervised. Would you ever have let your son at ages 3-4 be in a situation where he was not watched by a responsible adult? I don`t think so. It`s so incredibly frustrating not having memories though. It`s like it`s your life but you`re weren`t there. They say that memories come when you`re ready for them. As far as abuse memories go, though, maybe I really don`t want them. I have more than enough pain in my life already. Cecilia
Posted by mair on April 28, 2003, at 7:42:38
In reply to Re: Well... (unpleasantly graphic and overdisclosing), posted by Cecilia on April 28, 2003, at 1:59:07
Cecilia
I'm sort of in the same boat. I don't hate being touched by every one, but have a huge aversion to being touched by my father. Almost every pdoc and therapist I've ever had has asked me if I was abused by my father. I found out this weekend that my older brother has wondered the same thing. While each of the 5 children in my family has some resentments about him, mine seem to run so much deeper.
At times I've thought that finding out I was abused might not be such a bad thing because it would at least provide some explanation for my depressions. I can feel pretty guilty about how it is that someone with a very secure childhood and no particular history of mental illness can struggle as much as I do. Of course, as with you I don't need to have any more reasons to feel bad about myself - the ones I have now seem more than enough.
Mair
Posted by Dinah on April 28, 2003, at 9:53:06
In reply to Re: Well... (unpleasantly graphic and overdisclosing), posted by Cecilia on April 28, 2003, at 1:59:07
In my case I have a cluster of symptoms that, according to published psychological wisdom, come with sexual or physical abuse. In fact, in all the books I've read (and ok, I've read more than a few - my husband jokes that I'm working on my doctoral thesis) some of my symptoms can *only* be accounted for by ongoing sexual and/or physical abuse. So when I go to a mental health practitioner and tell them what's going on with me, they naturally think abuse.
I guess it's possible. My memories of my life after age 4 1/2 when we moved back to my father are far clearer than the memories of the period we lived on the farm, even though it was just a week or so earlier. The number of memories I have of the farm period is roughly equivilant to the number of memories I had from before we moved to the farm, and I was much younger then. I know from my mom that she worked long hours a long way away and that I was left with my very busy grandma and my grandpa.
But.... Isn't it also possible that people who *act* as if they were abused, have all the disorders that people who were abused have, and yet weren't abused are a challenge to their therapists? A threat, almost, to the way they conceive of certain disorders? Well everyone knows that XXX is caused by YYY. But what if someone has XXX but not YYY? Maybe it's easier for them to believe that YYY must have happened than to rethink their entire diagnostic picture. Not that my therapist has pushed me to recover lost memories or anything. But his attitude is rather disbelieving that nothing worse than what I've told him happened.
I dunno. If we were back a few years, and were schizophrenic or autistic, and told our therapists that our moms were loving and not at all "refrigerator moms" would they have been equally as skeptical?
It's very frustrating. All the research I did on sexual aversion seems to start with finding the reason, for example. But even if there was a reason, I think it's been lost now. So that pretty much leaves desensitization.
Posted by leeran on April 28, 2003, at 10:53:37
In reply to Re: I wonder.... Mair and » Cecilia, posted by Dinah on April 28, 2003, at 9:53:06
I had a situation with a babysitter when I was young. It never hit me until I told my husband about it a few years ago (I had never told anyone about it until then) that it might be abusive in nature. I really hadn't thought of it again until I read another post here the other day.
What made it not seem abusive was the fact that the babysitter was four years older and was a close friend of mine since I was two and moved into the neighborhood. Even though she had a younger sister who was only a year older than me, I was much closer to the oldest sister (in fact, I was even an attendant in her wedding years later).
When I got to that weird age of being too young to stay at home alone, but almost out of the babysitter stage, my mother hired her to "babysit" one evening.
Something happened, at her insistence (nothing horrid, but still enough to feel guilty about) - but since she was older and a friend who I had always been eager to please, I was more compliant than I might have been otherwise.
It was my husband who pointed out that it was sexual abuse, although I had never viewed it like that. I know how I felt about it, which was incredibly guilty, but I had never put that label on it. It was just one of those incidents I filed under "G" for guilty.
We remained friends for years and it was never spoken of again.
I wonder if that incident contributed to the intense feelings of guilt I used to have after an orgasm? That's a rhetorical question that just came to mind as I wrote this.
Posted by mair on April 28, 2003, at 12:21:36
In reply to Re: I wonder.... Mair and » Cecilia, posted by Dinah on April 28, 2003, at 9:53:06
My last therapist backed off talking about my aversion to my father's touch, I think because he started to fear that I might develop a false memory. My current therapist has spent alot of time mucking about in my childhood looking for some more obvious smoking guns. She has said, on the one hand, that there doesn't have to be one (a smoking gun) - that maybe it's as simple as an overly sensitive child with parents who, in my therapist's words, just didn't "get" me, and thus continually failed to meet my emotional needs. On the other hand, she did admit once to being pretty mystified by the level of resentment I have towards my father.
I vascillate between feeling that trying to unearth a tangible cause is a fruitless task, and yet also feeling incredibly guilty that there are no obvious explanations for my history of depression.
Mair
Posted by noa on April 28, 2003, at 16:41:42
In reply to Re: I wonder.... Mair and » Dinah, posted by mair on April 28, 2003, at 12:21:36
Dinah,
I'm glad you shared the memory. Nothing to be remorseful about.
And I'm sorry you are having to deal with this painful stuff. But glad you are comfortable discussing it here.
I have thoughts about the memory you shared but don't know if it is appropriate at this point to share them.
Posted by Dinah on April 28, 2003, at 17:44:41
In reply to Re: I wonder.... Dinah, posted by noa on April 28, 2003, at 16:41:42
If you feel comfortable sharing them, that's fine. I don't have any great investment with seeing the incident one way or another really, so don't worry about upsetting me. If there's some angle I or my therapist haven't yet thought of, I would welcome seeing it. And of course, I greatly respect your opinion.
Dinah
Posted by likelife on April 29, 2003, at 0:23:47
In reply to Re: I wonder.... Mair and » Dinah, posted by mair on April 28, 2003, at 12:21:36
> I vascillate between feeling that trying to unearth a tangible cause is a fruitless task, and yet also feeling incredibly guilty that there are no obvious explanations for my history of depression.
Mair-
I've had these exact same feelings, though they torment me much less now than before. I think I largely agree with your therapist, that a mismatch can cause such things, but I also have come to realize that I have rationalized a lot of my family's behavior, that, though it is not pathological or abusive per se, in accumulated form, became quite stressful. I never wanted for anything material, but felt like I was constantly wanting in an emotional sense...and it's taken its toll. So, yes, I still tend to berate myself occasionally for not being "justified" in having whatever feelings I may have, but it's decreasing little by little. Causes for depression don't have to be as linear as they are when laid out in a therapist's textbook.
Thank you for sharing this--and no, you don't need a cause to feel as you do (and most likely, you can change the feelings without knowing fully about the cause).
Posted by fallsfall on April 29, 2003, at 7:33:34
In reply to Re: I wonder.... Mair and, posted by likelife on April 29, 2003, at 0:23:47
I also had a "fine" life growing up. Plenty of money, my mother was the Girl Scout leader etc. But, like you, "I was constantly wanting in an emotional sense." My therapist calls it "emotional neglect". My dad worked a lot and my mother just doesn't seem to understand emotions. It is very hard to see my friends struggle with abuse issues, and for me to be as sick as they are with nothing "concrete" in my history. It feels like I am not justified in putting my family, my therapist, and myself through all of this agony. But I do believe that I don't have an acceptable choice.
Posted by Tabitha on April 29, 2003, at 12:22:58
In reply to Warnings, ratings, aversions, etc. » Dinah, posted by leeran on April 26, 2003, at 14:54:44
Wow, Leeran, that's a lot of information. You're really brave to post all that. My history is maybe a bit similar.. I've been alone with my battery operated toys for .. gosh.. 6 years? Sex with partners wasn't good. I wasn't myself, and I wasn't getting what I wanted, even if the men were considerate and, um, generous, it didn't feel good. I just didn't feel present. I found that when alone, at least it was REAL, I didn't have to fake anything for anyone, you know? I didn't have to perform, or hear any criticism. Whatever I got was OK, though it was still hard not to criticize myself, eventually it got easier. I was happy with my self-contained sex life, because it was so much better in its way than any partner sex I'd had.
Posted by leeran on April 29, 2003, at 12:42:46
In reply to Re: Warnings, ratings, aversions, etc. » leeran, posted by Tabitha on April 29, 2003, at 12:22:58
Tabitha,
Definitely a case of "TMI" (meaning, my long involved post). That day my thoughts were just pouring out like crazy. I felt brain-dead for a month and last Friday and Saturday were almost psychedelic in nature. The trees looked greener, the sky looked bluer . . .
Okay, back down to earth. Vibrators. In my opinion, the great sexual liberator of women, and I don't mean in the bra burning sense. I just see it as a step towards self-sufficiency which has made me feel more self-confident, at least in that arena.
I've always been so eager to berate myself that it is an unexpected pleasure that I actually have the ability to make myself feel good for a change.
Anything to clear the cobwebs . . .
Lee
(Thanks for responding - if there was ever a post I have regretted it's been that one).
Posted by Tabitha on April 30, 2003, at 1:49:25
In reply to Re: Warnings, ratings, aversions, etc. » Tabitha, posted by leeran on April 29, 2003, at 12:42:46
Nothing to regret.. it helps to hear other true experiences.. not so many situations where you get to hear such candor.
I get those psychedelic days too-- aren't they wonderful? Last Sunday I had a day like that, I kept seeing vivid improbable sights-- a woman holding a shivering chihauha like a baby, an African man dressed all in white carrying a little fur tassle fly-swatter, the back of a car with 2 head-bobbing dogs facing an American flag decal, 3 young boys flying downhill, sitting on skateboards, with big smiles on their faces.. It reminded me of that Volkswagen commercial where all the sights match up to the beat of the music they're playing. Just a little bit trippy.
Posted by Dinah on April 30, 2003, at 8:13:58
In reply to Re: Warnings, ratings, aversions, etc. » Tabitha, posted by leeran on April 29, 2003, at 12:42:46
No need to regret that post, Lee. This place can be quite informative at times. And I'm always grateful to Tabitha for the website link she gave. My husband even somewhat approves, since it came personally recommended by someone I trust.
:)
Posted by ayuda on April 30, 2003, at 9:03:28
In reply to Re: Well... (unpleasantly graphic and overdisclosing) » Cecilia, posted by mair on April 28, 2003, at 7:42:38
> Cecilia
>
> I'm sort of in the same boat. I don't hate being touched by every one, but have a huge aversion to being touched by my father. Almost every pdoc and therapist I've ever had has asked me if I was abused by my father. I found out this weekend that my older brother has wondered the same thing. While each of the 5 children in my family has some resentments about him, mine seem to run so much deeper.
>
> At times I've thought that finding out I was abused might not be such a bad thing because it would at least provide some explanation for my depressions. I can feel pretty guilty about how it is that someone with a very secure childhood and no particular history of mental illness can struggle as much as I do. Of course, as with you I don't need to have any more reasons to feel bad about myself - the ones I have now seem more than enough.
>
> MairMair --
I also have had a strong aversion to being touched by my father, going back to at least my pre-teen years. I asked my mom once when I was in my early-30s if there was ever any sexual abuse, and she said an ephatic NO, that she is sure there was none.We discussed it further, and we have figured out that, for me, it is an ongoing resentment for the physical abuse (non-sexual) I suffered, from childhood beatings and then especially in my teen years when I first became sexually active, and my overall hatred of him. I find him to be a repulsive person in general. But so does my older brother. Our younger sister, though, was always close to him and doesn't have these issues, though my father isn't a "touchy-feelie" type of person anyhow.
But his physical abuse did have sexual repercussions when I was a teen and in my early 20s -- a boyfriend noticed that I flinched every time someone came near my face. Not a little flinch, either. It was so normal to me to flinch that I didn't consciously notice it. I never had any problems with sex or touching anywhere else, but when someone went to touch my face, that was scary.
It hurt the feelings of that one particular college boyfriend, who was a caring person, because he thought I equated him with my father, and that he could not bear. So he took the time to teach me to not flinch. And now I rarely do it. If I don't know why someone is coming at my face, I flinch, but I think that is normal.
Posted by leeran on April 30, 2003, at 9:50:10
In reply to Re: Warnings, ratings, aversions, etc., posted by Dinah on April 30, 2003, at 8:13:58
Gosh, did I miss a website link? Now I'm very curious . . .
On the re-read I see it may be a website posted previously (not on this thread).
Re: the information passed around, I can't believe it - meds I've never heard of, ideas that would never have occurred to me, old memories I've tried to sublimate, book recommendations, the list goes on and on.
Posted by Tabitha on April 30, 2003, at 14:09:30
In reply to Re: Warnings, ratings, aversions, etc. » Dinah, posted by leeran on April 30, 2003, at 9:50:10
Glad to hear Miss Dinah Marie enjoyed that one.. I think she's referring to www.blowfish.com, there I made it tricky with no blue link. I haven't actually ordered from there, but I love their site.. it's so, well, to use the phrase I've seen before, 'sex-positive'. Not stupid cutesy, not tacky sleazy. It hits the right note for me.
Posted by leeran on April 30, 2003, at 14:56:06
In reply to Re: Warnings, ratings, aversions, etc. » leeran, posted by Tabitha on April 30, 2003, at 14:09:30
Oh no, I need to go read the rules and regulations for PB site. I tried to find them the other day and couldn't locate anything.
I just posted a couple of links to two websites that discuss "the water cure" (drinking 1/2 your body weight in water everyday). I'm not affiliated with them in the least but I thought it might be of interest because of Dinah's post.
HOWEVER, with your mention of the tricky non-blue ink/link it hit me that I might have committed a PB no-no.
I will go check out that website (blowfish...). There's another website (it's not designed very well and looks a little . . . tacky) sponsored by the NY sex therapist who uses the Hitachi Magic Wand, and as I recall - she has some good pointers (not an intentional double entendre).
Tabitha - do you know where the rules/regs are located for PB?
Add paranoia to my list of dis-"eases."
Posted by Dinah on April 30, 2003, at 17:46:12
In reply to Re: Warnings, ratings, aversions, etc. » Tabitha, posted by leeran on April 30, 2003, at 14:56:06
I don't think it's a problem, Lee. I've never seen Dr. Bob mention it.
I was going to supply the link, but I thought Tabitha deserved the credit. :)
Posted by Dinah on April 30, 2003, at 17:49:54
In reply to Re: Warnings, ratings, aversions, etc. » leeran, posted by Tabitha on April 30, 2003, at 14:09:30
Ah drat, Tabitha. You've never ordered? Well, don't tell my husband. I suspect he thinks these sites sell their products used. Or at least that's what his reaction implies. (grin) A personal recommendation looked like it might just maybe possibly get him past his objections. Doubtful though, come to think of it.
I hate to complain about his fastidiousness though. It pretty much guarantees fidelity, even if I didn't trust his formidable sense of honor as much as I do.
Posted by Tabitha on May 1, 2003, at 0:31:15
In reply to Re: Warnings, ratings, aversions, etc. » Tabitha, posted by leeran on April 30, 2003, at 14:56:06
posting links is perfectly fine.. unless it's to sites that sell meds without prescription.. I was just being sneaky, cause it's about -shhhh!- sex toys! just my silliness.
Posted by leeran on May 1, 2003, at 2:06:43
In reply to Re: Warnings, ratings, aversions, etc. » leeran, posted by Tabitha on May 1, 2003, at 0:31:15
Tabitha,
I'm probably not telling you anything you don't already know . . . probably everyone knows about this place.
The Starbucks of sex stores is on Sunset Blvd. in West Hollywood (I guess it's just called "The Hustler Store"). We went there one night when my son had something going on and wouldn't be home right away. I suppose it was a nice diversion considering a big night out for us is a trip to both Ralph's AND Von's (our two local grocery stores).
I found some weird solace in the fact that there's an enormous, well-decorated sex store with a Barnes & Noble type book section, and a coffee/dessert bar. I see it as the yuppification of sex, or coming full circle in a world where Dick and Laura Petrie had to sleep in twin beds.
It took the stigma out of sex toy shopping. No blinking signs with arrows on the top of the building, no little peep show hall, no weirdos dressed only in trenchcoats and black shoes/socks lurking around out back. The D*sney approach to marketing sex. I'm glad I've lived to see the day when that product type is sold on drugstore.com!
I'm glad the world has changed in this regard since the fifties/sixties/seventies (but I do hope my son remains a virgin until his wedding night).
Lee
Posted by Tabitha on May 1, 2003, at 11:55:36
In reply to Re: Warnings, ratings, aversions, etc. » Tabitha, posted by leeran on May 1, 2003, at 2:06:43
Wow, no I did not know of such a place. Sex Toy Disneyland! Next time I'm in Hollywood I'll check it out.
Posted by noa on May 1, 2003, at 17:16:28
In reply to Re: I wonder.... » noa, posted by Dinah on April 28, 2003, at 17:44:41
Dinah,
I am certainly not one for assuming there was abuse or trauma just based on someone's current symptoms. As we all know here, there are often multiple possible causes for various symptoms, and often biological bases are overlooked in favor of attempts to attribute symptoms to psychological experiences.
I have also seen a friend decide she was abused based not on any memories but on current problems that friends of hers in abuse recovery programs told her were signs of having been abused. Maybe, maybe not. But I know that she had enough about her past to have caused her unhappiness and particular problems anyway, along with whatever biological pre-dispositions she had, and that it didn't seem necessarily the case that she was also sexually abused. Like I said, maybe yes, maybe no, but I feel it can be dangerous to assume based on current symptoms. I saw how that danger played out with this friend (this was back in the 80's when this kind of thing was "popular" because the lid was finally being taken off the secrecy of abuse).
But I guess, like another poster (sorry, I can't remember who it was right now), there was something about your post that spooked me.
Maybe it was the details that you remember about your outfit, from such an early age. Or the distinct memory you have of the blood stain. Or the size of the blood stain you describe. Somehow it is hard for me to imagine a blood stain that size just from the abrasions of shorts too tight.
Did your mom or aunt check you out physically?
I hate writing all of this because it may be totally off and it seems too intrusive and perhaps dangerously provocative.
I guess the other thought is that the gyn exam doesn't totally exclude the possibility because of several issues--partial tearing of the hymen, and also that sexual abuse with penetration doesn't always involve vaginal pentration.
I'm sorry. This is way too graphic and intrusive, I'm sure.
Anyway, it probably signifies nothing about you and your memory and that day that *I* am a little spooked by the story, but that is it, fwiw.
Like I said, there are a lot of unknowns and I am not one for assuming abuse or for forcing memories, for sure.
Posted by noa on May 1, 2003, at 17:35:51
In reply to Re: I wonder.... Mair and, posted by likelife on April 29, 2003, at 0:23:47
I agree--I think I was a mismatch with my parents in a lot of ways.
I remember way back in the early 80's I was reading August, a novel by Judith Rossner, (sorry no double double quotes because for whatever reason this particular book doesn't get a match) and being a novel, it, of course had a kind of neatly packaged linear cause-effect thing going with an uncovered early trauma, too early for ready access to memories. At the time, this made me wonder a bit about any trauma I did not know about, but I think I came to realize after not very long that there didn't have to be something dramatic that happened to explain my problems.
I had a friend who, during the 80's, when recovered memories were coming out of the closet, and recovery support groups were becoming popular, spent a lot of time with recovering abuse victims, and in that context, began to be convinced that she must have been sexually abused by her father, even though she had no memories to that effect, just based on her depressive symptoms. It just felt that way to her because how else could she explain her depression and unhappiness. To me, there were plenty of "reasons" (aside from biology) based on what I already knew of her background. But to her none of that felt like "enough" of a reason to have the problems she did. Of course, I have no idea whether she was or was not abused but I remember how disturbing I found it that she assumed she must have been based on her adult symptoms and the support she was feeling in the recovery groups. BTW, she also went through a brief period during this time when she was hanging with the recovery friends, of believing she was a lesbian. She had never suspected this before, and had had relationships with men before, and this ended after less than a year, and a couple of years later, she called to say she was getting married (to a man).
So much of this is biology. And then there is the plain old, garden variety, "mismatch" that you mentioned. The story behind my depression is kind of lackluster and would make a terrible Hollywood plot. I think we like a good story--to be able to reveal something that makes us say, "Aha! No wonder. That explains it all so perfectly". A nice clean, wrapped up story with obvious cause-effect and dramatic appeal.
Sorry to put it so glibly. I definitely don't mean to be trivializing all of this. I think far too much abuse probably goes unreported.
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