Psycho-Babble Faith Thread 408646

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Re: About faith.... » 64bowtie

Posted by rayww on November 15, 2004, at 12:19:51

In reply to About faith...., posted by 64bowtie on October 29, 2004, at 1:42:41

This thread has taken some interesting turns, but going back to the idea of dictionary definitions of faith, how do you feel about the Bible Dictionary definition of faith? Here are three Bible dictionaries:
LDS Bible Dictionary:
http://scriptures.lds.org/bd/contents

Easton Bible dictionary:
http://www.ccel.org/e/easton/ebd/ebd/T0001300.html#T0001302

Web Bible Encyclopedia:
http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/faith.html

Here is another person's interpretation of the definitions:
["What is the difference between just ordinary prayer and a “prayer of faith”? As we consider that question, the difference is immediately apparent. The difference is faith, and what is faith? Of course, there are many definitions of faith, but one definition is “a strong belief plus action.” It is not perfect knowledge, but real faith lets a man act as if he knows it is true when in fact he does not.

Therefore, faith in a real sense is power—power to act and perform without actual knowledge. The Lord’s formula for receiving the Spirit, then, is to get on our knees and communicate with him. Tell him what we are going to do—make commitments with him—outline our program—and then get up off our knees and go and do precisely what we have told him we would do. In the doing, the Spirit comes."]

When the spirit comes it is accompanied by faith.
The difference then between the world's definition of faith (excluding God) and the Bible's definition of faith (embracing God), is the spirit. People want to discover this spirit, and increase their spirituality, become a more spiritual person, develop their spiritual sense,

The goal then should be to find the right spirit, the right God, the right definition. The choices are all here for chosers to choose.

You say, "I keep hearing faith bandied about as a designated end or purpose, ignoring the object of the very faith (God) being felt, leaving me wondering how we got there."

Do we agree that the only way to "feel" God is throught the spirit? Does that feeling strengthen our faith? Have you ever felt it?

I agree totally with what you say here:
"At no time do these definitions imply that faith is a weapon to be used to wipe out beleivers in other faiths."

Here you use faith to mean one's religion:
"Also, testing folks' integrity based on their ferver in this or that faith, implies faith is more important than God."

And, this one I reallly like, and agree with totally:
"For a long time now I have thought that this odd application of faith needed a different word to describe. Suddenly last week it came to me; FAITHISM: faith in faith itself, or faith is the object of the faith itself."
Your definition of FAITHISM should be added to both the world and Bible dictionary.

Would belief in Jesus Christ be defined by you as faith as a religion? This is my definition of faith as a religion, quoted from another's words:
http://www.lds.org/conference/talk/display/0,5232,23-1-439-13,00.html

These words I also echo.
rayww

 

Re: Faith is not an end. Faith, like belief, is a tool

Posted by Jai Narayan on November 15, 2004, at 20:59:21

In reply to Faith is not an end. Faith, like belief, is a tool » Jai Narayan, posted by 64bowtie on November 15, 2004, at 1:57:08

Dear Rod, I am sorry to admit this but I don't believe in faith.
It's been over for me for years.
I was a catholic and this destroyed my faith.
I will never believe in anything that required faith again in my life.
Sorry to dissapoint you.
I know you really like faith
sorry
Jai

 

Re: Faith is not an end. Faith, like belief, is a tool » Jai Narayan

Posted by verne on November 15, 2004, at 22:54:07

In reply to Re: Faith is not an end. Faith, like belief, is a tool, posted by Jai Narayan on November 15, 2004, at 20:59:21

Jai,

My heart goes out to you - what with the catholic experience. It's foreign to me but I came to know the Bible later.

I agree with you. When faith becomes a "tool" it is "man's" instrument. When we have such a handle on faith, we don't have it at all. As soon as we say that we have this kind of powerful, "tool-driven" faith, we have none.

I like what Paul said in the New Testament, when he said, "I believe in the Unseen". He hadn't completely figured it out but he filled it in with Love, Hope, and Faith. (footnote: I disagree with Paul over just about everything he said about women and eventually concluded that his misogynist remarks WERE NOT inspired by the Spirit, Holy or otherwise)

Someone who "abides in the Vine" does not "use" faith. The use of faith - usually for signs, wonders, and healing - puffs up and deludes - it's a worldly thing in man's power, and usually for man's ends.

It's one thing to tell this mountain to be removed, but yet another, to talk about it afterwards and schedule further miracles. You can't "control" the Spirit - what human conceit.

verne

 

Toooo much overlapping can be poor boundaries » rayww

Posted by 64bowtie on November 16, 2004, at 2:58:27

In reply to Re: About faith.... » 64bowtie, posted by rayww on November 15, 2004, at 12:19:51

Rayww,

> Would belief in Jesus Christ be defined by you as faith as a religion? This is my definition of faith as a religion, quoted from another's words:

<<< Thank you so much for listening... I have a small concern. When you overlap the function of two tools of any kind, you impair their unique and separate functions. Mixing faith and belief and religion is asking for trouble. Each has its own highest purpose.

1. Beliefs can be complete information based only on testimony.
2. Faith is belief in information based on intuition that the complete picture will manifest consistently from the partial picture being observed.
3. Religion is the imperative for mankind to have faith and believe.
4. Religion is obligatory in practice and nature.
5. Faith is voluntary.
6. Belief is optional as well as practical, guided by experienced sense of value. Beliefs can be updated, replaced, and discarded to accommodate situational nessecities.

Of these three, I only hold religion in contempt, and only part of the time at best. Mankind cannot be trusted with worship of an absolute being and calling it faith or belief. Mankind is so corrupted that he must worship as a religion, as an imperative.

These are lifelong observations I hold as truth and are not intended to irritate anyone elses observations and sensibilities.

Rod

 

Existentially please, faith IS a tool

Posted by 64bowtie on November 16, 2004, at 3:06:15

In reply to Re: Faith is not an end. Faith, like belief, is a tool » Jai Narayan, posted by verne on November 15, 2004, at 22:54:07

> When faith becomes a "tool" it is "man's" instrument.

<<< How does faith become a tool if it already is a tool?

Rod

 

» rayww » I do thank you for hanging in there

Posted by 64bowtie on November 16, 2004, at 4:00:37

In reply to Re: About faith.... » 64bowtie, posted by rayww on November 15, 2004, at 12:19:51

....and letting me know what you see and hear...

Rod

PS: (to paraphrase Yogi Berra) You can see alot by watching and hear alot by listening!

 

Re: » 64bowtie

Posted by rayww on November 16, 2004, at 7:45:18

In reply to » rayww » I do thank you for hanging in there, posted by 64bowtie on November 16, 2004, at 4:00:37

> ....and letting me know what you see and hear...
>
> Rod
>
> PS: (to paraphrase Yogi Berra) You can see alot by watching and hear alot by listening!


How about hear a lot by watching and see a lot by listening?
Touch a lot by smiling and feel a lot by thinking
Smell a lot by breathing, live a lot by loving
(gee, this is sounding like poetry)

 

Faith, Love, and Hope remain » 64bowtie

Posted by verne on November 16, 2004, at 17:35:58

In reply to Existentially please, faith IS a tool, posted by 64bowtie on November 16, 2004, at 3:06:15

Faith is no more a "tool" than Love or Hope.

 

» verne » Thanx for your input

Posted by 64bowtie on November 17, 2004, at 0:27:39

In reply to Faith, Love, and Hope remain » 64bowtie, posted by verne on November 16, 2004, at 17:35:58

Verne,

Faith is an emotion that is a tool...
Hope is an emotion that relates attitude...
Love... is... without dispute... awesome...

Rod

 

Re: please be supportive » Jai Narayan » 64bowtie

Posted by Dr. Bob on November 17, 2004, at 6:17:05

In reply to Toooo much overlapping can be poor boundaries » rayww, posted by 64bowtie on November 16, 2004, at 2:58:27

> I don't believe in faith.
>
> Jai

> I ... hold religion in contempt
>
> Rod

Please be supportive of religious faith here.

Follow-ups regarding this or posting policies in general should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above posts, should of course themselves be civil.

Thanks,

Bob

 

Re: please be supportive

Posted by Jai Narayan on November 18, 2004, at 12:38:47

In reply to Re: please be supportive » Jai Narayan » 64bowtie, posted by Dr. Bob on November 17, 2004, at 6:17:05

Oh my gosh I am blowing right and left.
serves me right for posting when I am sick.
sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry.....I can't seem to say I'm sorry enough.
What was I thinking?
Please accept my apologies.
Jai Narayan

 

Re: Faith is not an end. Faith, like belief, is a tool » Jai Narayan

Posted by Gabbix2 on November 18, 2004, at 15:45:09

In reply to Re: Faith is not an end. Faith, like belief, is a tool, posted by Jai Narayan on November 15, 2004, at 20:59:21


> I was a catholic and this destroyed my faith.

Aha! Me too, so that's why we share so many of the same beliefs, you've spoken for me many times here. Though I have faith (when not hopelessly depressed) just not of the pre-made organized religious variety, and I suspect you have beliefs in things untangible too. (correct me if I'm wrong)

 

please be supportive - I continue to be supportive » Dr. Bob

Posted by 64bowtie on November 18, 2004, at 16:19:29

In reply to Re: please be supportive » Jai Narayan » 64bowtie, posted by Dr. Bob on November 17, 2004, at 6:17:05

Bob,

Like I've said many times before, this is your board, not mine. So if you see me outta line, please contiue to warn me.

Religion is not religious faith. Religion is an institution. Please clarify:

1. Do you see me as not suppoting others herein?
2. Do you see no difference between the insitution of religion (like a city or a nation) and an individuals religious adherence to a particular faith?

RSVP

Rod

 

Gabbix2

Posted by Jai Narayan on November 18, 2004, at 18:56:09

In reply to Re: Faith is not an end. Faith, like belief, is a tool » Jai Narayan, posted by Gabbix2 on November 18, 2004, at 15:45:09

thank you for your comment.
yes I agree, my faith is in non religious direction.
We do have a similar take of this.
Jai

 

Re: please be supportive - I continue to be supportive

Posted by Gabbix2 on November 18, 2004, at 18:56:44

In reply to please be supportive - I continue to be supportive » Dr. Bob, posted by 64bowtie on November 18, 2004, at 16:19:29

Psycho-Babble Faith
This is a message board for mutual support and education. It focuses on religious faith (which, according to the dictionary, means "the service and worship of God or the supernatural").

 

Re: Faith is not an end. Faith, like belief, is a tool » Gabbix2

Posted by rayww on November 18, 2004, at 23:16:54

In reply to Re: Faith is not an end. Faith, like belief, is a tool » Jai Narayan, posted by Gabbix2 on November 18, 2004, at 15:45:09

>
> > I was a catholic and this destroyed my faith.
>
> Aha! Me too, so that's why we share so many of the same beliefs, you've spoken for me many times here. Though I have faith (when not hopelessly depressed) just not of the pre-made organized religious variety, and I suspect you have beliefs in things untangible too. (correct me if I'm wrong)


My question to Gabbix2, Jai, Dinah and other former members of organized religions is why is it that once a Catholic, Mormon (etc) gets fed up and figures out the church is false, they discount all possiblity of there being a true religion somewhere else on the earth? I can see why they are put out by religion in general. But why? Also, it seems like some go out of their way then to try to prove other religions are false. Doesn't make sense to me. Can you please explain?

In your opinion is it:
1. Because in your opinion they are all wrong?
2. Because you don't want to know any different?
3. Because you don't believe there is one true church?
4. Even if there was one true church you wouldn't care?
5. All of the above.
6. None of the above.

 

Re: thanks (nm) » Jai Narayan

Posted by Dr. Bob on November 19, 2004, at 7:26:46

In reply to Re: please be supportive, posted by Jai Narayan on November 18, 2004, at 12:38:47

 

Redirect: insitutions of religion

Posted by Dr. Bob on November 19, 2004, at 7:33:02

In reply to please be supportive - I continue to be supportive » Dr. Bob, posted by 64bowtie on November 18, 2004, at 16:19:29

> Do you see no difference between the insitution of religion (like a city or a nation) and an individuals religious adherence to a particular faith?

I responded over at PB Administration. Here's a link:

http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20041109/msgs/417806.html

Thanks,

Bob

 

Re: Faith is not an end. Faith, like belief, is a tool » rayww

Posted by Gabbix2 on November 19, 2004, at 15:15:31

In reply to Re: Faith is not an end. Faith, like belief, is a tool » Gabbix2, posted by rayww on November 18, 2004, at 23:16:54

> In your opinion is it:
> 1. Because in your opinion they are all wrong?
> 2. Because you don't want to know any different?
> 3. Because you don't believe there is one true church?
> 4. Even if there was one true church you wouldn't care?
> 5. All of the above.
> 6. None of the above.

I'll try to explain, though I don't intend to stay on the faith board too long. I should not have inferred that my experience with the Catholic church was the only reason I don't look for truth in organized religion, what it was was that my experience with it, caused me to look at institutions of religion in a different way.

I don't have a problem with God, or with Jesus or with other religions
I have a problem with what has been done to women, and to natives, to homosexuals in the name of of God. I feel that there is an innate truth in the symbolism of modern religion and ancient spirituality that transcends
mankinds current concretization of good and evil, I think love transcends that, I think kindness does.
I think it's of like the blind man and the elephant, everyone has a piece of the truth and thinks they are describing the entire experience. I don't have a need to learn to judge people, or to hate, or to convert someone to my beliefs. I don't think my God thinks that way. My god doesn't worry about Churches or correct names, or spelling, or male or female. I think that is more all too human judgement, the values of the time, being reflected in religious text.

 

Thank you (nm) » Gabbix2

Posted by rayww on November 19, 2004, at 16:04:01

In reply to Re: Faith is not an end. Faith, like belief, is a tool » rayww, posted by Gabbix2 on November 19, 2004, at 15:15:31

 

Thanks for asking! (nm) » rayww

Posted by Gabbix2 on November 19, 2004, at 16:28:39

In reply to Thank you (nm) » Gabbix2, posted by rayww on November 19, 2004, at 16:04:01

 

Re: Faith is not an end. Faith, like belief, is a tool » Gabbix2

Posted by rayww on November 20, 2004, at 11:06:18

In reply to Re: Faith is not an end. Faith, like belief, is a tool » rayww, posted by Gabbix2 on November 19, 2004, at 15:15:31

All you say is good.
Love is good.
Kindness is good.
Your God is good.
there is an element that transcends all goodness, but it is still good, isn't it?

People have a tendency to "invent" their own God, and perhaps that is good also, "but" IF there is a real God, and IF He did indeed create the universe and all that is herein, all we can ever hope to be able to do, until we see him face to face, is innvent our own concept of Him. That is mostly good also, because at least we are clinging to that hope that somewhere out there is a God who loves and cares about His handiwork.

Everyone has the right to say "my" god this or that, and believe in their own god, and if it helps them to be more true to themselves, that is good. But, like you say, if their God tells them to do hateful things to women, homosexuals, or tells them they are better than others, that is evil. Satan tries to mask himself as God, and often succeeds. If there is good, there is also evil, otherwise how would we know there was good?

It is good that others are venturing into the faith forum to examine their own faith issues. I encourage everyone on PB to do that at some point. It is a mentally healthful thing to do. I could say that I have no faith issues, but without exception, every topic I write to adds to my understanding. So, even though we think we may have no issues, none of us know everything there is to know about faith and religion. There is no end to understanding and knowledge. Only beginnings.

 

Re: Faith is not an end. » rayww

Posted by Gabbix2 on November 20, 2004, at 14:36:38

In reply to Re: Faith is not an end. Faith, like belief, is a tool » Gabbix2, posted by rayww on November 20, 2004, at 11:06:18

> All you say is good.
> Love is good.
> Kindness is good.
> Your God is good.
> there is an element that transcends all goodness, but it is still good, isn't it?

I had to change that subject line, I don't believe faith can be reduced to a tool..at least in the way I understand tools!

I am in complete agreement with what you have to say, it's all a beginning which is why I don't look for the "one true church" but love to explore and appreciate different faiths.
It's also why I love what Jai put so beautifully
"Amen God, who can argue with Amen?"

 

Re: please revise that » rayww

Posted by Dr. Bob on November 21, 2004, at 8:27:47

In reply to Your own resurrection » Lou Pilder, posted by rayww on November 14, 2004, at 11:22:22

> http://scriptures.lds.org/query?words=%22as+in+Adam%22&search.x=31&search.y=10

Keeping in mind that the idea here is not to put down the beliefs of others, could you please revise the above so that it doesn't include, for example, Acts 4: 12? Thanks,

Bob

 

Re: please revise that » rayww

Posted by Dr. Bob on November 21, 2004, at 8:37:30

In reply to By and through Christ » Lou Pilder, posted by rayww on November 14, 2004, at 23:58:23

> http://scriptures.lds.org/query?words=wrought+redemption+christ&search.x=31&search.y=10

Keeping in mind that the idea here is not to put down the beliefs of others, could you please revise the above so that it doesn't include, for example, Mosiah 3: 12? Thanks,

Bob


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