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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by katia on November 3, 2003, at 15:01:22
In reply to Re: hypothyroid » katia, posted by BarbaraCat on November 3, 2003, at 10:08:35
Hi Barb,
god you're organized! you have a little notebook for notes! how intelligent! I have lost bits of scraps of pieces of whatever that important info written on them in a haste. I think I'll get an "info notebook"!
thanks for the enthusiasm regarding researching dep. and hypothy. the thing about that is, I've felt this way for quite a while, not just since Depakote. But I do have to say, since the weather made an uprupt change from INTENSELY HOT to now FRIGID, i've gotten dizzy, foggy, and cold. The change in weather also coincided with the ending of Depakote - so not sure if this is depression or something else. I'm just BLAH and dizzy and exhausetd. I'd like to get a more comprehensive test done to see if I'm hypothyroid. Does the changing of weather affect hypthyroid , i.e. make it worse at times? I have an appt. with my GP on Thursday over something else (that something else was going on three months ago - it's just this is the first appt. I could get). I'm under the state's healthcare which absolutely sucks. So I doubt (with my TSH levels "normal") he will be ready to refer me to an expensive endocrinologist even if he wants to. My pdoc just doesn't respond to this. I bring it up and he just doesn't say anything. All he said last time was "if we start you on Lithium, then we may need to do something about it". as tho' he didn't HEAR me when I say "I think I'm hypothyroid". I don't know what he could do. He almost acts like he simply not his ballgame and I need to take it elsewhere.
I need to call him and address it further and more directly because he certainly isn't on the ball about it, nor is he good with proactively addressing things that don't fall under "psychiatry". it's so frustrating.
BTW, I don't know what my TSH levels are. I'll ask my pdoc.
thanks.
katia
Posted by nmk on November 3, 2003, at 15:18:11
In reply to Re: Lamictal side effects » fluffy, posted by BarbaraCat on October 31, 2003, at 19:31:09
Hi Barbara,
I have been remiss in writing but I think of you often. I had some down time at work today and was following this thread since I always like to hear what is going on with you and the girls. Hope I didn't intrude by sticking my nose in.
What really struck me about your post (the Buddha one) was that we do have to take it day by day or in my case, second by second. Life has dealt us a sh*tty hand but as you go through more and more down times, you eventually come to the realization that it won't last forever.
I am now up to 300mg of Lamictal and 50 mg of zoloft and still cycling every month before and/or during my period. My doc and I decided last month to decrease the zoloft to 25 mg to see if that would reduce the cycling. Unfortunately, it sent me into a severe depression which last throughout my period. Needless to say, I went back up to 50 mg of zoloft and am feeling better. I just don't know about the Lamictal...my pdoc says he has some patients on as much as 600 mg. Whatever. He also talked about another option (which I am not even considering at the moment) which is shutting down my ovaries, injecting myself with Lupron, and adding back estrogen. He stated that this would provide a steady level of estrogen in my body and would prevent me from my sensitivity to my flucuating hormones. I am reading anything and everything and driving myself crazy(so to speak) in the process.
Please write me and let me know how things are going with you. I miss you.
Nicole:)))
Posted by BarbaraCat on November 3, 2003, at 17:21:01
In reply to Re: hypothyroid » BarbaraCat, posted by katia on November 3, 2003, at 15:01:22
> Hi Barb,
> god you're organized! you have a little notebook for notes! how intelligent! I have lost bits of scraps of pieces of whatever that important info written on them in a haste. I think I'll get an "info notebook"!**A notebook is a great thing, when I can find it. Mine has a red cover for just that reason.
>> Does the changing of weather affect hypthyroid , i.e. make it worse at times?
**I definitely feel worse when the weather is cold and damp when my thyroid isn't corrected. The body has to work harder to keep warm and it just doesn't have the extra ooomph.
>>I'm under the state's healthcare which absolutely sucks.
**Yeah, my husband was on it recently and it was unbelievable how hard it was to find a doctor that accepted it. What he ended up doing was to call a few hospitals and ask the recommendations dept who was a new doctor in the area. They usually accept it to build their practice.
>>So I doubt (with my TSH levels "normal") he will be ready to refer me to an expensive endocrinologist even if he wants to.
**An endo won't help either. In my experience they're even more conservative than other docs and to prescribe something like Armour would be blasphemy. But I've heard of real good endos as well.
You should go to the http://thyroid.about.com website. There's a list of top doctors by state posted. That's how I found my naturopath. There's alot of info that can answer your questions.
BTW, if you can spring for a visit with an alternative health practitioner you'll find alot more comprehensive care. I don't believe CA has naturopaths but maybe there's someone else that can prescribe. I know you're on a tight budget but my experience is that my naturopath costs much less than seeing a doc in the long run, both financially and psychologically.
The other thing is simply to state that you want to try this and see how it goes. Be a broken record about it - 'yes, I understand, and I still want to try this and see how it goes'. They eventually get it that you're not going to roll over. One thing we forget - they're getting paid for providing service to us, not the other way around. But who knows, maybe your doc is familiar with the recent research that states that a combo T3/T4 therapy is more effective (especially with mood disorders) than T4 alone and that subclinical hypothyroidism doesn't always show up on tests and should be treated based on symptoms alone. And you might do just fine on T4 alone if he insists on it, but as you'll find in the thyroid.about.com website, T3/T4 wins hands down.
You know, maybe you're not hypothyroid but this low temp/cold thing is a sure giveaway that something is way off.
>>My pdoc just doesn't respond to this. as tho' he didn't HEAR me when I say "I think I'm hypothyroid". I don't know what he could do. He almost acts like he simply not his ballgame and I need to take it elsewhere.
**That sucks. Thyroid should be the first thing that's looked at in ANY mood disorder and the second thing is ALL hormones. He should be up on something as basic as the thyroid. Why he doesn't at least acknowledge your concerns is neglectful of courtesy at the very least. You need to call him on this and let him know your frustration.
This goes back to why I hate mainstream medicine. They're incompetant, plain and simple, with anything that isn't mechanical. I have been medically screwed, misdiagnosed and harmed far too many times in the current managed healthcare travestry and I see it happen all the time. You can't expect too much out of the majority of them cause they just don't seem to get it, but that's not helping us one bit.
Suspecting and treating a thyroid disorder is not rocket science and not a life threatening procedure. Sure, you have to proceed with caution as with any hormone therapy but if it doesn't work out it's no big deal to come off it.
> I need to call him and address it further and more directly because he certainly isn't on the ball about it, nor is he good with proactively addressing things that don't fall under "psychiatry". it's so frustrating.
**Like I said...
> BTW, I don't know what my TSH levels are. I'll ask my pdoc.
**I'm gonna stress this again for when you get your results. The TSH range is between approx point .3 and 5 with higher numbers meaning greater hypothyroid. Alot of doctors will accept from 3-5 but that's not low enough. You don't want to go lower than .5 because you're headed for too much thyroid and that feels jagged and anxious. The best range is between 1 and 2. My TSH was swinging between .9 and 16 recently and the endo my HMO doc consulted with said not to worry, I souldn't be symptomatic. Bullcrap. As anyone with half a brain would imagine, there's no way to not feel 'symptomatic' with those wildly swinging values. Grrrrr! Of course, my naturopath just rolled her eyes, shook her head and prescribed Westhroid for me.
-Barbara
Posted by katia on November 3, 2003, at 18:20:45
In reply to Re: hypothyroid » katia, posted by BarbaraCat on November 3, 2003, at 17:21:01
Thanks for all the info Barbara. AT the moment my head is in a fog and I can't understand anything on that website. I didn't realize naturpaths could prescribe meds. Like you said, maybe not in Cal. But if anywhere, I'd think Cal. would. I'll eventually get the ball rolling on this, but I feel *stupid* right now and I can't think much less make a phone call.
thanks again for all the info and your time.
I do appreciate your willingness to share vast amts. of knowledge and info.
hugs,
katia
Posted by katia on November 5, 2003, at 0:31:43
In reply to Re: hypothyroid » katia, posted by BarbaraCat on November 3, 2003, at 17:21:01
Hi Barbara,
I found out what the test results were for me in April = TSH was like 1.72. Quite low. Mmmmmmmm. I wonder. I also found out that the FAMA test - which is more comprehensive is around $105. Not too bad to get clear results and then do something about it or understand that I'm not hypothyroid and it's something else.
Lots to ponder.
I thought about you in Costco today. I was sooooo tempted to get some yummy reds. But all I bought was a space heater and some sausages!
warmly,
katia
Posted by fluffy on November 5, 2003, at 10:50:26
In reply to Re: hypothyroid » BarbaraCat, posted by katia on November 5, 2003, at 0:31:43
Hi you guys.
I went to the pdoc this past monday. I found out that my thyroid is definitely within the normal bounds...(like you, Katia, around 1.75). My pdoc and I both decided in light of my normal week, that if it ain't broke, don't fix it. So I'm currently still at 200mg Lamictal, 600mg Trileptal.
My so-called stability seems to be crumbling a little. I don't want to be alarmist, but god--today, I feel like total crap. I went to sleep at 10:30, barely able to keep my eyes open that long. I awoke several times during the night, unable to get back to sleep.
I woke up this morn with the edgy, sleep deprived, jumping out of my skin feeling. Tomorrow is another day. Maybe today is just a bad day. I guess I'll take Temazepam tonight if I'm having trouble resting. I don't get it...seemed like my sleep-wake cycle and appetite was returning. I just don't know how much more instability I can stand. One year of drug trials, with barely a dent in my symptoms....esp. this rapid cycling hell. I thought maybe my thyroid was to blame, but I don't have any of the other "symptoms" of an abnormal thryroid.
One other suspicion....I don't remember who was saying that they had a hormonal fluctuation that caused bad stuff around their period. I was having cramps a couple of days aqo, and now the ol' breast tenderness before my period. This seems to start like 7 days before my period. I have an IUD (that releases progestin in my uterus) that my gyno claims does not cause mood swings. My period seems to have been out of whack since the thing was "installed".
How does one know about hormone levels? Is this a huge can of worms to open? I guess I'll call and get the damn contraption removed and see what happens. Since I'm boyfriend-less now, it doesn't really matter.
I hope you all are well and closer to answers. We all could use some now.
Take care,
Katy
Posted by cupcake on November 5, 2003, at 10:56:50
In reply to Re: hypothyroid » katia, posted by BarbaraCat on November 3, 2003, at 17:21:01
i feel so vindicated! i KNEW i just needed an increase in dosage! i got a blood test at my endo's on monday and after two visits of telling me to just focus on losing weight and exercising and that i would feel better eventually and that it's "normal" not to feel like your "optimal" self, my doctor called me (sheepishly i hope) yesterday asking if i took my synthroid every day without fail (yes, mostly), if i took it with the effexor (no, half an hour before breakfast like you're supposed to) and then he finally told me that yes, my TSH levels were still high (>10) and that he'd have a month's supply worth of a higher dosage ready for me to pick up right away.
ha, ha, ha, ha! do i know how to listen to my body?? YES...
Posted by katia on November 5, 2003, at 14:45:23
In reply to Hello gals..., posted by fluffy on November 5, 2003, at 10:50:26
Hi Katy,
I wished you lived near me! I could use a friend who is also having very similar experiences as me! It really sucks when your friends don't get it.
I'm wondering, why did you think you were hypothyroid if you werent' experiencing the symptoms? Yes, both of ours are quite low. It would be a good thing if we weren't; but somehow just to have a solution, you don't care what the dx is sometimes as long as you can do something about it; it's tangible.
sitting here on my desk is a pamphlet called "hormonal balance and your health" by ZRT labs. I got it at that nutritionist i've been seeing. They are in Beaverton, Oregon (barbara). I could give you their info and you could start from there. They are supposed to be good. 503-466-2445. I think they start with a saliva test.
I too get cramps and sore sore breasts like 10 - 7 days before my period. I think getting the hormones tested is the next step for me too. I am on a downswing now and it's been with me for about a week; which is longer than what I've been experiencing with the rapid cycling of 1/2/3 day swings from up to down to normal to up to down. I think I've been in a tailspin since last year of trying all those antidepressants too. When taking away the Depakote, my Lamictal levels fall too. I'm only at 75mg right now; upping to 100 on Friday. It's a slow journey. most people become manic after taking the mood stabilizer away right? I've become depressed.
I too, have needed to take something for sleep (seroquel). The night before, I was up tossing and turning irritable and sick of being me and thinking "there's NO WAY I could have a boyfriend witness all this craziness/neurotic behavior! I thought to myself, "if I don't fall back to sleep, i'm going out and buying Panza's Stag's Leap Cabernet (a yummy and expensive bottle)and buying a pack of cigs and smoking and drinking the whole damn thing. Luckily, I fell back asleep and remained sober! I told a friend who came over to go for a walk with me that I had trouble sleeping last night, "she innocently said "why?". Ha ha ha.....I'd love to live in such a dream land. She's one friend who doesn't get it. A good friend, but it's conflicting and confusing.>>I just don't know how much more instability I can stand. One year of drug trials, with barely a dent in my symptoms....esp. this rapid cycling hell. I thought maybe my thyroid was to blame, but I don't have any of the other "symptoms" of an abnormal thryroid.
** We're in the SAME boat on this one. I can't take much more either. I'm giving it at least until the new year (the psychic said I'd end an unbalanced and chaotic 84 yr. old cycle Dec. 30th and things would rapidly change for the better). If that doesn't happen, then I will be out of steam and hope and fuel - and WILL buy that Stag's Leap and another one and another one...
Hope things don't spiral down further for you.
katia
Posted by BarbaraCat on November 5, 2003, at 14:45:42
In reply to Re: Lamictal side effects » BarbaraCat, posted by nmk on November 3, 2003, at 15:18:11
Hello Nicole,
How nice to talk to you again! Sorry you're having a rough time. I know personally how important hormonal balance is and how we're not going to get truly well until we gain that balance.Lupron, oh dear. I was on a fertility forum a few years back when I was trying to get pregnant and shuddered at the stories of women on lupron and other drastic hormonal regulators. Talk about emotional rolercoasters! There are other gentler ways of bringing your body into balance that's not going to ultimately shove the underlying cause underground. It's hard to wait for a slower more natural cure and sometimes heavy artillary is needed. But hormones are not one of those areas where faster is better if there's a more lasting means. Here's something to look into:
http://www.viable-herbal.com/herbdesc1/1chastet.htm
Vitex is an herb that has had much repute in regulating progesterone/estrogen. I had alot of luck with it when I was trying for pregnancy as far as regulating my cycle which was going bonkers due to perimenopause. I'd forgotten about it until now and I may try it again.
Surely, if your hormones are out of whack you're going to feel just awful. PMS is horrible one week out of 4, but to have it all the time - uggghhhh!! You take care, Nicole, and remember, the body affects the mind and vice versa. They want to be healthy and know how to, and what we need to do is to say NO! to our fear and panic. That's mainly what stands in our way to a clearer mind and happier life. It's hard to muster up the strength and will when things are murky and dark, but you know your little Pilot Light is in you guiding you on and you'll find the answers. Just don't let anyone lead you down a path that doesn't feel right. - Barbara
Posted by BarbaraCat on November 5, 2003, at 14:59:23
In reply to Re: hypothyroid » BarbaraCat, posted by katia on November 3, 2003, at 18:20:45
Katia,
This is important. I was feeling fine and took my temp for the heck of it. It was 97.6 on my basal digital thermom. I thought 'no way' so I tested my basal digital thermometer, my regular digital thermometer and two mercury thermometers. I stuck a digital and a mercury on either side under my tongue both times so the variables were the same. The digitals measured 97.6 and 97.8 whereas both mercury's were at 98.6. So moral of story is I sure am not going to trust the digitals ever again. I think I'm going to throw them out. It's real hard to find a mercury thermometer these days but some places still carry them or can order them.>>I didn't realize naturpaths could prescribe meds. Like you said, maybe not in Cal. But if anywhere, I'd think Cal. would.
**Naturopaths can prescribe hormones and probably alot of other things that aren't narcotics. CA doesn't license naturopaths so you won't find one very easily. I think they do practice there but it's on the sly. You'd think CA would be big on them but ain't so. But I think there are non-MD practitioners that can write scripts or else work under an MD but aren't so expensive, like a Nurse Practitioner. I'm not sure about acupunturists or chiropractors but they might know of someone good who won't bankrupt you who is hep to hormones.
Posted by katia on November 5, 2003, at 15:19:22
In reply to Re: hypothyroid » katia, posted by BarbaraCat on November 5, 2003, at 14:59:23
Hi Barb,
Good to know. After a walk yesterday with my friend, we came back here and I asked her to take her temp with my thermometer and hers was 97.8. Mine was 97.4 after a walk. She's not known to be hypothr. so maybe your theory/experiment is correct. Ummmmm. Isn't mercury bad to put into your mouth? Isn't there a reason why they're hard to find now?
I will look into getting my hormones and my adrenals/thyroid checked. I want to be clear on all fronts before I endure anymore trial and error with psych meds.
take care,
Katia
Posted by katia on November 5, 2003, at 15:27:41
In reply to Hello gals..., posted by fluffy on November 5, 2003, at 10:50:26
here's the website:
www.salivatest.com
Posted by BarbaraCat on November 5, 2003, at 15:28:36
In reply to Hello gals..., posted by fluffy on November 5, 2003, at 10:50:26
Hi Katy,
What a dissapointment after you'd been feeling so good. You know, I think we had this conversation a while back and I recall that I said then what I'm saying now - you're gyn is full of crap. Progesterone most definitely causes mood swings. Just enough causes relaxation and lessening of anxiety. Too much causes lethary and depression. Progesterone opposes estrogen, acts as a break on it which is a good thing if there's an imbalance of too much estrogen but a very bad thing if there's too high a ratio of progesterone to estrogen. Too little progesterone is going to come with it's own host of problems from anxiety and sleep disorders to muscle pain. Sometimes introducing a hormone from an outside source shuts down our natural production and it's possible that your body is recognizing the progesterone in your uterus and figures hey, why work so hard? But I guarantee you that progesterone in your IUD is not the bioavailable kind your body likes and this creates even more of a problem that most docs don't acknowledge. Did you know that synthetic progesterone is highly implicated in causing depression?The amount of progesterone an IUD releases is not significant but it does affect your whole system, not just your reproductive organs. Suppose you already had an imbalance one way or another? That extra amount leaking into your system may have tipped the scales. Progesterone is the hormone that surges the week before menstruation and who can deny that PMS causes wild mood swings? Is it possible your gyn is male and doesn't understand these things?
If you feel in your heart and gut that the problems started with your IUD then getting it pulled would be a very good test. Bear in mind that the balance won't be restored right away and may take months. Hormones are slow moving. Check out my post to Nicole (nmk) in this thread about Vitex as an herbal regulator of hormones. Here's a link to some info.
http://www.viable-herbal.com/herbdesc1/1chastet.htm
Something you should definitely think about is getting a saliva test that measures your hormones (estradiol, progesterone, DHEA, cortisol, testosterone). I've been very impressed with what they can uncover. If you don't have a health practitioner that is savvy to saliva tests then you can order it yourself and monitor your own progress. A good lab is ZRT Laboratories:
It costs $150 and is worth every penny to know where you're at hormonally. Otherwise you're doing trial and error indefinitely and this is expensive in so many ways. Alot of mainstream docs don't believe in saliva testing but all I can say is I feel so very much better since seeing someone who uses and believes in them than all those who don't believe in them, don't use them, and haven't done a thing to get me feeling better. - Barbara
Posted by BarbaraCat on November 5, 2003, at 15:43:55
In reply to Re: Hello gals... » fluffy, posted by katia on November 5, 2003, at 14:45:23
Hi Katia,
You've probably seen the many posts where I harp on ZRT Labs for saliva tests. It's the one my naturopath uses and a damn good one. They take into account particulars about you, like age, weight, medications, symptoms via a questionnaire and tailor the test to those variables. Their sitehas some terrific information on hormones. This has got to be the missing link for so many of us. I can't begin to tell you how my life has gone from shits to shines (hmmm, I like that, I may use it again) since getting my hormones balanced.
BTW, yummmmm on the Stag's Leap cab. One of my faves. But I gotta 'fess up. Two nights ago I cooked up two New York steaks for a celebration for The Hub and me. I very rarely eat meat and so this deserved a good bottle of Rodney Strong cabernet to go with it. My husband only wanted 1 glass and so as not to waste the bottle... I felt horrible the next day! Granted, I felt pretty darn good the night before, but the crummy stuff lasted the whole next day. I felt depressed and toxic.
Since my resolution to not abuse alcohol I've limited it to one smallish glass and that's been fine every so often, but more than that is plain silly. It's not worth it. Of course, sometimes you just have to say 'screw it' whatever way works, but getting f*cked up drunk is like banging your head with a hammer and just defeats the purpose. - Barbara
Posted by BarbaraCat on November 5, 2003, at 15:53:59
In reply to Re: hypothyroid » BarbaraCat, posted by katia on November 5, 2003, at 15:19:22
>>her temp with my thermometer and hers was 97.8. Mine was 97.4 after a walk. She's not known to be hypothr. so maybe your theory/experiment is correct.
**Interesting. I've heard digitals aren't accurate and now we know they're not.
>>Isn't mercury bad to put into your mouth? Isn't there a reason why they're hard to find now?
**Mercury is toxic and REAL bad to put in your mouth, but the thermometer glass protects you from it. None leaks out to hurt you, otherwise there wouldn't be any left.
They're hard to find because of the danger of dropping them and spilling the mercury, which happens alot if they're left around kids. Also, we're in this digital age where people automatically assume the numbers are correct and of course, manufacturers don't dispel the idea.
> I will look into getting my hormones and my adrenals/thyroid checked. I want to be clear on all fronts before I endure anymore trial and error with psych meds.
**Bueno! Hopefully this will start you on the right road and get you feeling better. Then you can very sweetly ask your pdoc what his reasons were for not acknowledging or considering your health concerns.
Posted by katia on November 5, 2003, at 20:48:42
In reply to Re: Hello gals... » katia, posted by BarbaraCat on November 5, 2003, at 15:43:55
> Hi Katia,
> You've probably seen the many posts where I harp on ZRT Labs for saliva tests. It's the one my naturopath uses and a damn good one. They take into account particulars about you, like age, weight, medications, symptoms via a questionnaire and tailor the test to those variables. Their site
>
> http://www.salivatest.com*** Interestingly enough, I just gave Katy the exact same resource/info in the previous posts.
Nope. Can't say I remember you harping on about ZRT labs; but good to know that we both came up with that as a resource. I had a pamphlet from my nutritionist and have actually been perusing their website today considering ordering one of those tests. You just reaffirmed that for me. the hard part is finding the right one to order. There are so many. One something like "comprehenvise thyroid test" costs $240 and tests estradiol, progest., testost., DHEA-S, and Cortisol and the throid tests.My other thought about digital versus mercury is this. Always whenever hearing about what a normal or low body temp is it's talking about from a digital basal. Maybe however, there are different "normal" temps for a mercury that are a bit higher. So maybe the testing takes into account that mercury's and basal digitals are not reflecting the same temps.
anywayssss.Yes, it's sooooo hard not to partake. I'm still abstaining; but god it's hard. Esp. on nights like this - cold, dark, lonely. I'd rather be in a cozy restaurant sipping some Stag's Leap and flirting over candlelight. So the one every so often is working for you? I was thinking that I might just buy the most expensive bottle, indulge, drink the whole thing - get it out of my craving system. (b/c you know when you do, the desire and dream of was much better). than back to sobriety. I've been VERY good; not drinking at work or anywhere else for that matter. What I'm trying to remember is the thought, sight, smell, and taste is like a beautiful alluring woman pulling you in and then once there she becomes a monster. I trying to remember that ultimately drinking is the monster and that I can see past the seduction and say no.
ta-
Katia
Posted by BarbaraCat on November 6, 2003, at 1:24:21
In reply to Re: Hello gals... » BarbaraCat, posted by katia on November 5, 2003, at 20:48:42
>>One something like "comprehenvise thyroid test" costs $240 and tests estradiol, progest., testost., DHEA-S, and Cortisol and the throid tests.
**If you can afford it the comp thyroid test is the way to go. It measures your thyroid every which way from Sunday - how much free T3, T4, reverse, T3, thyroiditis antibodies - and not just the standard TSH numbers. But even if all those tests come back normal the coldness and tired foggyness is reason to try thyroid. At least, that's what I'd ask for.
>
> My other thought about digital versus mercury is this. Always whenever hearing about what a normal or low body temp is it's talking about from a digital basal. Maybe however, there are different "normal" temps for a mercury that are a bit higher. So maybe the testing takes into account that mercury's and basal digitals are not reflecting the same temps.**I've always heard basal temps for thyroid should be done with a mercury thermometer and never digital. I tested mine with two digitals and their numbers were off by .3 degrees. The two mercurys were the same. But you're right about mercurys being higher depending on where. Rectal temperatures are about 1 degree higher and my armpit temp is usually a whole degree lower, although it's supposed to be the same as oral.
>
> So the one drink every so often is working for you?**Sorta. It's always hard to go back to not partaking once I've had 'the taste' and am a couple days removed from how sh*tty I felt the day after.
>>I was thinking that I might just buy the most expensive bottle, indulge, drink the whole thing - get it out of my craving system.
**Ha ha. That's your Beast talking. It'll just whet your appetite for more. But who knows, maybe a good reminder of why you swore off is in order.
>>I trying to remember that ultimately drinking is the monster and that I can see past the seduction and say no.
**That's a great analogy about the beautiful woman. It is like that, so seductive, so elegant and pleasurable. Have you read "Rational Recovery" by Jack Trimpey? That book helped me alot and describes that whole alluring thing so well and how to recognize it as the Addictive Voice, a.k.a., The Beast. Another book that has been helping is "Sober for Good" by Anne Fletcher. She interviewed a bunch of people who have been sober for over 5 years about what worked for them. Some now drink moderately. Both books have been my no-drink Bibles. But I do crave it still and over-indulging is the best way I know to fan that fire.
Good for you for being so strong, especially with the temptations at work. Do you remember how very difficult it was for you at first and how you were going to beg your doc for antabuse? Once you start feeling better physically and then mentally you'll want to involve yourself in things (dust off the bellydance togs?) and the need won't be so overwhelming.
I'm not going to kid myself and pretend I'm not going to drink over the Holidays, but I'll nurse that puppy and will not get drunk again. I've controlled myself just fine the last few times even though the thought always comes the next day 'hey there, kiddo, why don't we try that 'control' thing one more time - just to see'. Then, I'm looking forward to the new year when I can put it aside, maybe for good. - Barbara
Posted by fluffy on November 6, 2003, at 10:39:32
In reply to Re: Hello gals... » katia, posted by BarbaraCat on November 6, 2003, at 1:24:21
Hi again you guys--
You know, I just ended up having a "blah" day yesterday. Sometimes I have just a bad attitude about all of this...like, "why did I get dealt this hand...it's just not fair." I was thinking last night, and I just came to the conclusion that what we have is something like an immune disorder of the mind. Try as we may, we just have to avoid the things that can put us at risk for getting sick, just like someone with H.I.V. has to avoid places and people who have colds or the flu, etc. I was feeling a little guilty last night for complaining as I do. But hey--I just had a bad day. And all in all, i am feeling WAAAAAY more stable than I did a month ago. So as much as I would like to continue living my life in a carefree manner--staying up late to work in my studio, going out and partying, having good sex with men I don't care about--it's just not worth it anymore. I guess I'm just in the process of "mourning the loss of my healthy self." But the truth is, that it wasn't my healthy self...it was my UNHEALTHY, moody unstable self.
Anyway--even though my mood as of late has been on the dysthymic side, I can at least deal, and try to exercise and get good sleep now. Complain, complain, complain. It's hard not to be riddled with fear about the future.
And I think I'm opting to get the contraption removed from my uterus. If anything, it would be nice to not have HORRIBLE, stabbing cramps, and a period that lasts for TWO WEEKS!
I'm making an appt. with my gyno today, and I'll see about the hormone tests. As for the thyroid business...I guess I was hoping in a weird way that it was off, b/c I know it can cause rapid cycling, and synthroid can be a mood stabilizer. Also, my mom has thyroid problems, and it's always seemed like a more palatable solution to my mood problems than the dreaded Bipolar label.
Anyway--I'll keep in touch. Gals...I hope you feel better soon! Barb-cat and Katia, I can't thank you enough for your understanding. And I also really wish we could get together and have a nice, long talk face to face.
hugs,
Katy
Posted by BarbaraCat on November 6, 2003, at 13:24:47
In reply to Re: Hello gals..., posted by fluffy on November 6, 2003, at 10:39:32
Hi Katy,
Real words of wisdom there, my friend. These mood disorders are the pits when we're in them but afterwards I don't think any of us can deny that we're stronger and more 'grown up' once we've survived them - what doesn't kill us, and so on...In the indigineous cultures potential shamans may have the gifts, but unless they've gone through a very dark night of the soul, even insanity, they're not considered wise enough to understand and heal. I try to think of that when I'm really suffering with it and try to imagine I'm going through some kind of intiation for something I'm not aware of yet. My sick mind goes 'yeah, yeah, wishful thinking, you f&cking failure' but I think the initiation part is the greater truth.
You're so right about the 'just bad days'. As opposed to the BAAAAAAAAADDDDD days. I was thinking back on life before lithium and lam and the goooooooooddddddddd days as well. Whew, I sure was on the edge at times. When I wasn't in a psychotic bleak hell I was running around in a frenzy of visions, plans, unfinished projects, boundless energy. They were GOOD plans, visions, and projects too. But they came as if out of the blue, I couldn't sustain the energy or the train of thought for long. My house and garage are still under seige from all the stuff from those days.
Now, my days are much more peaceful, if a bit uneventful. But that's OK. I'm not ready yet to immerse myself back in life, and really, I don't want to. I look at the insanity out there, the emptyness, the unconsciousness, and we wonder why there's so much pain and the disowning and avoidance of that pain. I spend alot of my time now finally doing those things I frenzied my way through with alot more care. Playing piano, getting back to yoga, photography - getting rid of stuff (God, that's hard!). For a while it was hard to know what to do with myself once I dropped out of the work world, how to fill up the hours. I had to build up the patience and discipline to build a life, maybe for the first time in my 52 years.
So, slowly it's working. Sometimes I'll have a mini hypomanic swing (I'm on a very low dose of lithium) and it's alot of fun. I know I'm there when I start with the visions and multiple projects. It's kind of like in 'A Beautiful Mind' when John Nash/Russel Crowe stops taking his pills and starts up with the Mr. Parcher/Ed Harris hallucinations again. Lack of sleep can bring them on. My husband then brings me down and I go to bed earlier. I guess I can ration them out for when I need an extra bit of zip, but it really is hard on the bod and I pay for those zips with a mini depression. Buddha talks about 'The Middle Path' and I'm learning that lesson big time.
Yeah, bad days indeed, or blah days, or pissy days. I rarely have grrrrrrrrreaaat days. The best they get now is a quiet joy kind of day. I'll take those, they're my favorites. I'll take the pissy days too. Just as long as those BAAAAAADDDDD days leave me the Hell alone. I've earned my Shaman wings for 40 lifetimes. Yes, getting together one of these days would be a gas. After the intial self consciousness wore off, we'd sure all have alot to talk about! Love ya and so glad you're feeling better, Barbara
> Hi again you guys--
>
> You know, I just ended up having a "blah" day yesterday. Sometimes I have just a bad attitude about all of this...like, "why did I get dealt this hand...it's just not fair." I was thinking last night, and I just came to the conclusion that what we have is something like an immune disorder of the mind. Try as we may, we just have to avoid the things that can put us at risk for getting sick, just like someone with H.I.V. has to avoid places and people who have colds or the flu, etc. I was feeling a little guilty last night for complaining as I do. But hey--I just had a bad day. And all in all, i am feeling WAAAAAY more stable than I did a month ago. So as much as I would like to continue living my life in a carefree manner--staying up late to work in my studio, going out and partying, having good sex with men I don't care about--it's just not worth it anymore. I guess I'm just in the process of "mourning the loss of my healthy self." But the truth is, that it wasn't my healthy self...it was my UNHEALTHY, moody unstable self.
>
> Anyway--even though my mood as of late has been on the dysthymic side, I can at least deal, and try to exercise and get good sleep now. Complain, complain, complain. It's hard not to be riddled with fear about the future.
>
> And I think I'm opting to get the contraption removed from my uterus. If anything, it would be nice to not have HORRIBLE, stabbing cramps, and a period that lasts for TWO WEEKS!
>
> I'm making an appt. with my gyno today, and I'll see about the hormone tests. As for the thyroid business...I guess I was hoping in a weird way that it was off, b/c I know it can cause rapid cycling, and synthroid can be a mood stabilizer. Also, my mom has thyroid problems, and it's always seemed like a more palatable solution to my mood problems than the dreaded Bipolar label.
>
> Anyway--I'll keep in touch. Gals...I hope you feel better soon! Barb-cat and Katia, I can't thank you enough for your understanding. And I also really wish we could get together and have a nice, long talk face to face.
>
> hugs,
> Katy
Posted by katia on November 6, 2003, at 14:39:03
In reply to Re: Hello gals... » katia, posted by BarbaraCat on November 6, 2003, at 1:24:21
**Hiya,
A long time ago I read "How Alcoholics Anonymous Failed Me". It was also a good support.>Voice, a.k.a., The Beast. Another book that has been helping is "Sober for Good" by Anne Fletcher. She interviewed a bunch of people who have been sober for over 5 years about what worked for them. Some now drink moderately. Both books have been my no-drink Bibles. But I do crave it still and over-indulging is the best way I know to fan that fire.
>
> Good for you for being so strong, especially with the temptations at work. Do you remember how very difficult it was for you at first and how you were going to beg your doc for antabuse? Once you start feeling better physically and then mentally you'll want to involve yourself in things (dust off the bellydance togs?) and the need won't be so overwhelming.
** The horrible thing is, I don't feel better; I feel worse. I'm in a mild-mod depression now. I'm not having ANY high days AT ALL. It seems to have stopped my rapid cycling, but increased the depression. There could be various elements to that too. For instance, when I was still on Depakote AND Lamictal (decreasing the Dep.) and I wasn't drinking I felt quite good. It was also when the weather was good and daylight savings time hadn't passed. I'm just down now.
But there's something telling me "just get through the next two months not drinking and you'll have made your dark night of the soul". I can feel there's a lot changing in me subtley and majorly and drinking will just put me back to square one. It's too an important place in my life to not listen to the messages. and that's why I'm not drinking - I feel i've got support on a spiritual realm.
I was just going to drink thru' the holidays too, but (and this is my reasoning) I feel I have to break out entirely from all those excuses - there WILL always be an excuse. I just want to relearn entirely and stop playing these games. It's the worst of it now (and during the holidays) but I think I can get thru' it.
I actually did start belly dancing again. I think i'll change teachers tho'.I'll probably order that test.
take lots of care,
katia
Posted by BarbaraCat on November 6, 2003, at 19:54:33
In reply to Re: Hello gals... » BarbaraCat, posted by katia on November 6, 2003, at 14:39:03
Hi Katia,
You're not on Depakote anymore? Have you considered Tegretol? Katy seems to be having good luck with it. If you're solo-ing it with lamictal and you're not up to a therapeutic dose, that could have alot to do with how you're feeling.As for the rest, that's saying alot, girlfriend. I went through a euphoria at first, how clear I felt, how much more energy w/o alcohol. Then the real sadness started creeping in, the stuff I'd been keeping at bay with alcohol. There isn't any easy way to deal with it. I had a few slides, enough to know that I can't do it anymore. Which leaves one in a quandary because there you are without much comfort. I know I'll imbibe over the holidays and with my husband as watchdog I know I won't tip over the edge. I also know I'll feel it and I won't feel so good about myself because I'll know it's not for my best. So why will I do it? I really don't know.
Yes, it sure seems like starting back at square one by giving in to The Beast. I don't think it's that fatal though - you just pick yourself up and start again, hopefully wiser and humbler. The feeling of utter failure and letting ourselves down that comes with giving in is a good excuse for saying screw it, I'm hopeless. And then you really feel bad.
Y'know, this life, this existence is REAL HARD. I guess there are plenty of folks who feel good about their lives, have enough of what they need and don't feel a sense of futility and pain most of the time that they have to mask with alcohol or drugs. I even know a few like that but they really are in the minority. What to do about it? Some kind of hopeless cosmic joke? We don't have the user's manual.
I'm with you all the way on the spiritual guidance. I guess that's probably the best reason to keep a clear channel - the guidance eventually gets clearer and more true. Oh, I've had some spectacular visions while under the influence of many different substances. But I usually question them afterwards or don't quite remember. The messages I get when clear, even tho fewer and less vivid, are more real and precious. One I got a few years back still sustains me. In answer to 'Why is all this happening? I'm ready to give up, I can't go on', I got a very clear voice 'We are not given to know the answers. We can only do our best, but that is enough. Take heart, it will become known. You are loved.' Ahhhhh, just to remember that Voice...
For me, I know what doing my best means and it includes staying away from things that are deadening and poisonous. If I can just get past this limbo stage and immerse myself in health and vitality and life once again! I know it's out there and in here but my God, this society sucks. What a barren thing this country has become. I seriously consider moving away from this sterile depressed country that's starting to resemble Mordor. But I won't kid myself. This black dog will follow me wherever I go. But at least he can do his business in a warmer, sunnier and more colorful back yard. Love and hugs to you, my friend. I'm glad you're there. - Barbara
Posted by katia on November 6, 2003, at 20:50:07
In reply to Re: Hello gals..., posted by fluffy on November 6, 2003, at 10:39:32
Hi Katy,
We have such similar experiences and histories and timing of things.
I miss the carefree life too, but ultimately it wasn't a carefree life for me (but it was fun at times!). It was a cyclical life - one thing leading into the next and feeding off each other. It is rather boring to have to be so vigilant about what I do. I too am mourning a loss of an unhealthy self. I feel I'm in limbo at the moment and sometimes I have to remind myself that I'm female and I have to say my name. I feel a bit like I"m disintegrating and it's scary. My identity is going. I sometimes don't know what I like, want or desire. In fact nothing. I just feel empty. I think it's hard to get past this to get through this part - the in between unhealthy and healthy self.I too am on the dsythmic side. For the first time today in over a week however, I had a mixed state. It only lasted a few hours; now I'm exhausted again. I'm just sooo soooo tired. Is it depression? probably. Hypthyroid? who the hell knows. Chronic Fatigue Syndrome? Never really thought about that one....
Glad your bad day didn't spiral further.
BTW, I'm curious about my sleeping patterns. I do work nights, but that shouldn't be that big of an influence especially since I only work two - three nights per week. I can't fall asleep until around 1-2 and then I can't wake up until 11/12. I just CANNOT change it. I've tried. Like today, I was late for a 1:00 appt. because I slept too late. This has been going on since I've been on medication about a year ago. Previously, I was an insomniac. But then again previously, I had a job where I HAD to wake up earlier. I feel so caught in a zombified rut.
What's your sleep pattern like?
take good care,
Katia>>>WAAAAAY more stable than I did a month ago. So as much as I would like to continue living my life in a carefree manner--staying up late to work in my studio, going out and partying, having good sex with men I don't care about--it's just not worth it anymore. I guess I'm just in the process of "mourning the loss of my healthy self." But the truth is, that it wasn't my healthy self...it was my UNHEALTHY, moody unstable self.
Posted by katia on November 6, 2003, at 21:00:09
In reply to Re: Hello gals... » katia, posted by BarbaraCat on November 6, 2003, at 19:54:33
Hi Barb,
No, I stopped Depakote right around Daylight Saving's end and right when this depression seemed to set in. It's wierd but sometimes I need a contrasting mood in order to understand where I was before. Where I was before in the past couple months was better than this. And it wasn't depression. it was mixed and hypo and normal; I was cycling rapidly. Yes, that's what it was. I'd forgotten how blahhhhhhh depression is. How foggy the brain is. how heavy the limbs and bones are, how exhausted I become. and that sallow thing.....I up the Lamictal tomorrow to 100mg. Hopefully that will add a zing to my days. Nothing makes a dent now. Coffee doesn't get me high; I've given up alcohol (still thinking of that Stag's leap....). Things have to improve soon or I will take the matter into my own hands and forget taking a leap of faith and head for the leap of Stag! really. if the meds ain't working, then something has to help. I've still got some strength and patience however.
I wonder if we all got together, I wonder if it'd be triple trouble or a healing supportive environment. I wonder if we'd activate the highs and the corking open of skunk blood and rancid swamp juice or would we all be good.
hmmmm.
take care and I'm glad you're there to.
Katia
Posted by katia on November 6, 2003, at 21:04:15
In reply to Re: Hello gals... » fluffy, posted by BarbaraCat on November 6, 2003, at 13:24:47
oh,
I forgot to say I got that book "Why Your Depression isn't getting better". It's great. I wish I'd found it ten years ago! But then again, sometimes you have to go through hell in order to realize you need help.
The whole thing with the substance abuse clinics not working b/c they don't look at the underlying issue. It's totally me. I've made so many attempts to stop drinking and what always brought me back was either a high, low, or mixed state for their own self-medicating reasons. AND b/c I wasn't addressing the mood disorder. It has always been a "reaction to" what was happening with me when I reached for the wine.
Posted by BarbaraCat on November 6, 2003, at 22:09:03
In reply to Re: Hello gals... » BarbaraCat, posted by katia on November 6, 2003, at 21:00:09
Hmmmm, I think we'd eventually break open the skunk blood and swamp juice, but I don't think we'd regret it one bit.
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