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Re: Turn Left

Posted by alexandra_k on September 23, 2016, at 23:27:05

In reply to Re: Turn Left alexandra_k, posted by Tabitha on September 22, 2016, at 10:54:53

> Didn't know that about those books. Read old paperback copies of them long ago. Don't recall much except they were both very grim.

Dystopia. There were utopia books, too. Apparently Skinner wrote a Novel of how we could use conditioning to lead to a utopian society. "Clockwork Orange" was a dystopian response. Not sure why, but I got it into my head that 1984 was... Well... Written closer to 1984... But it was pre-WWII. They treated the foetuses with alcohol, you see. I thought the effects of alcohol on foetuses would have been a Nazi Doctor discovery... But no, evidence was earlier (or at least some people were aware).

> Children. Never wanted them, don't really understand the impulse. Yet I don't look forward to being old and existing primarily to consume health care.

Aw. I don't know that anybody likes the idea of existing 'primarily to consume health care'. I mean, I think most people like to think they would have the freedom / power to say 'I no longer consent to treatment' and have that decision be respected.

I'm not sure that we have that right in NZ. I think because of trials... Because we are enrolling people in trials without them being aware they are participating in a trial. Because we aren't telling people the sad, sad truth that they can either participate in a trial or there is no health care for them. I think that is the situation, actually... That there is really rather a lot of that. That's why all the data has to go overseas... So people can keep track of outcomes and so on... Of the trials.

> Does NZ have different ethics requirements on clinical trials? In U.S. it's unethical to deny standard of care.

Who will treat you, then? If you get mowed down in the street and you don't have health insurance... Who will pay for / provide you with standard of care?

Or perhaps standard of care is different from gold standard of care...

HIV medications... Drug cocktail... So on... The most recent cancer treatments...

I do understand trade-offs need to be made... But it is hard to trust the people who make the choices (to trust that people are making choices in anything like best interests of anyone other than themselves) when they aren't forthcoming about the things that needed to be weighed... But then you have a population who are fairly damaged by alcohol etc... When you have a population that hasn't adjusted to infant mortality being down (a population who can't afford to feed all the teenagers they've produced and they couldn't even find a war to believe in).

I read something in the paper today about polytech occupational therapists writing lighting prescriptions for old people because many of them don't realise they need to turn on the lights. That's what it means - to have a prescription. That's the level of expertise and knowledge that goes into producing one. I have vague memories of doctors emptying out sacks of glasses / spectacles in 3rd world countries and basically people should just grab a pair and use them if they help them see better... That's pretty much what optometry has become here... There is a package, you see, for people on welfare. You pick one of these or those or these other plastic frames and they put a 'prescription' lens in for you for a single fee. The 'prescription' is about 'better or worse or much the same' and there isn't a fitting...

Bait and switch... The masses demand... Medical prescriptions / health care. Give them something else and call it 'prescriptions' and 'health care'. Most of them... Won't even notice... No harm. What's the alternative? Nothing at all?

People could choose to have no more than replacement children. But they don't. People could choose to have one child and to really invest in raising it so it would learn mathematics and read novels and play sports.. The time and energy that goes in to raising... A person... Or people can... Live more like animals.

There are some Australian Aboriginal communities... The alcohol... I always heard it was the solvent abuse but it really is mostly the alcohol... All the drinking... All the drinking while pregnant. You get really very high rates of... Basically... Really quite brain damaged human beings. I mean... Human beings who sexually interfere with their own young. Human beings who squawk emotions at each other and don't really communicate using contentful / symbolic speech... Human beings who can't repeat back what was just said or follow instructions (e.g., the instruction required for learning complex tasks).

We have a huge problem with alcohol in NZ, too. Our drinking age is 18 but some peoples parents have problems such that an adult supervised party that serves alchohol with 16 year olds is considered appropriate. Some people just party with their kids... They are just dragged up around that. And then all the drinking while pregnant. I mean... I remember my own family... My father's family... putting beer and lemonade in toddlers milk bottles...

What can you do if people decide they would rather live like that... If people decide that it is their right to have as many kids as they like and raise them to live like that? If people then start crying about how their kids should get to go to university too (in the name of equity!) and their kids should get to be doctors and lawyers too (in the name of equity!) and their kids should get healthcare and optometry and dental and lighting prescriptions...

We don't have enough senior people to teach the kids because we swamp them. It's always 'just one more, just one more, just one more'. Especially the cost of education... There is always room for just one more full fee paying international student - surely! But you can't appropriately direct attention and present in a way that's responsive to learners needs... All learners? Average learners? The worst learners in the name of equity!

But then some countries have been trying to legislate the number of children people are allowed to have and the people... Often... The people would rather have their numerous homo sapiens... Rather than concentrating all those resources into producing a person.

Here... I think quite a lot of our immigration is due to people fleeing those laws. They come here to raise family. The Maaori and Pacific Island culture (so long as that survives) will never allow restrictions on how many kids you are allowed to produce. It really is such an ingrained part of the culture... Because... Infant mortality was such an ingrained part of the culture... Because you never invested very much in anything since it would likely die (and / or leave you) anyway...

So I don't see how a cap on population will happen here. And everyone is on about 'growth' being the solution, anyway. More people... Our problems are apparently due to our not having enough people...


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poster:alexandra_k thread:1092227
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20160906/msgs/1092332.html