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Re: ?? » AuntieMel

Posted by alexandra_k on November 3, 2005, at 16:02:25

In reply to Re: ?? » alexandra_k, posted by AuntieMel on November 3, 2005, at 9:25:16

>Lots of things come from America. Some good, some bad.

Sure. Same with most places in the world.

> But calling something "American" seems to me to imply that it either has the support of the majority of the people, or it has been done by the government.

Not at all. The Kiwi is a New Zealand bird. While it may well have the support of the people and the government, it would continue to be a New Zealand bird even if we hunted it into extinction.

> Do you think it's hard to discern the intentions of someone who flies a plane into a building? Or bombs a school bus or a restaraunt? Or a subway system? Do you think it's possible that the target was something *other* than civilians and their deaths were collateral?

I don't think people should do that. But then... I heard a wedding party was bombed by the US military. I don't think people should do that either.

Another issue is how much the war is effective with respect to getting people to stop doing those things. With respect to 9/11 there you are dealing with a suicide bomber, for example. Part of being a suicide bomber means he is already dead. I worry about the slippery target of 'terrorism'. I worry about how many innocent people die in the name of protecting the innocent (though how much is it about that, and how much is it about revenge?). How much is it about an attempt to save face? You can't get away with doing that to us! Somebody must pay! And the public requires a scapegoat. Fairly easy to get them to support a war. And as for film coverage... How much is made in a hollywood basement?

> "Because... The cycle has to stop somewhere. "

> But we also know that appeasement doesn't work. And if you would like some verification of that I'll give you the email addresses of some of my friends in Poland.

Sorry, I'm not too sure what 'appeasement' means. Doesn't work to do what?

> I agree that war is a tragic waste.

PBC
<joke>
;-)

> because I am horrified by a leader who will use chemical gas on his own people, and by many other things that this particular leader did. The rape, the murder, the torture....

Yeah. And I'm sure there was a lot of information out there on this particular leader (mostly American in origin). People do worse. There are people doing worse in other parts of the world. Is the american government planning on taking them all on? Or just those whose countries have oil?

> Yes, sometimes war can be noble. Is this one? I don't know yet.

I think Hitler needed to be stopped. I'm not opposed to war under all circumstances. I have more sympathy for defending ones boundaries than I do for 'pre-emptive' strike...

> I don't look at my country through rose-colored glasses, believe me.

I know. You are one of the most informed people I chat to. I'm not so good on knowledge of what the media presents. In a way... I don't want to get too caught up in it. But people like you correct my facts and I do think quite a lot about the information I'm presented with...

>I purposely read web sites that are *not* friendly to us, AlJazeera, Pravda, one in Pakistan, and so on. I try to (not always successfully) find the truth, which is usually somewhere in between the positive and the negative.

I've given up hope of finding the truth. I just don't want people do be killed anymore.

>i'm sure people won't have too much of a hard time thinking of better uses for the $$$"
> Yup. Do you disagree?

> Well, yes I do disagree. If not for NASA then I would probably not have gone into the sciences. I wouldn't have known to follow dreams. And before you say 'that was then' my youngest went to Space Camp twice - and she became fired up about sciences herself.

Yeah. And that is a terrific thing. I hear you. But... What I was thinking... Was that money could probably be better spent on... Oh... On equal access to healthcare for all; equal access to education; equal access to 'basic' needs like food and shelter and so on. I bet those kinds of things... Would inspire far more americans to make something of their lives...

Or building better dams in new orleans even...

> I think the one thing you don't understand about us is that we are not the government, we are the people. All individuals. Sure, it's good to have some safety net, but most here rely on each other more than the govt. in times of trouble. At least in my neck of the woods.

I DO understand that. But I think that in reading what I have to say you don't get that I DO make that distinction. When I said about how some americans are very lovely people - I meant that. Most of the Babblers I've met are American. And are lovely people.

But this is the politics board.
And on the politics board I'm not talking about individuals.
I'm talking about political systems.
I'm talking about government policies.
I'm talking about countries as abstract entities
Where their laws and policies define what the nature of that country is when we consider that country as an abstract entity.

I think some people are a little uncomfortable with this...

Like how Dr Bob looks at Babble from the group level and people worry he doesn't see the individuals.

I talk about America from the country level and people worry I don't see the individuals.

But I do see the individuals. And I babble with the individuals over on psychology, or social, or admin, or writing.

But over here...
Its political
Not personal
Really.


> It's the PEOPLE that make me love this country.
>
> People like my eldest who worked every day at the Astrodome, from the day before it was opened as a Katrina center until the day it closed.
>
> Like my youngest who worked there when she was in town.
>
> Like the complete strangers who went to the dome to adopt families and take them home with them.
>
> Like the hundreds and thousands who donated their time to help.
>
> Like, when the roads were deadlocked before Rita, the hundreds who drove to them and passed out food and water and ice and gasoline to the stranded.
>
> Like the nurse my daughter talked to who risked her life at a New Orleans nursing home trying to save the elderly from drowning.
>
> This is just MY personal experience of *only* the last couple of months. It's not extraordinary - these things happen on different scales all the time.
>
> And they are happening in Iraq. Not by the government, but by soldiers and citizens. I've read dozens of stories of people being brought over here for medical treatment that wasn't available to them before.
>
> But - that's not newsworthy, is it?


I know there are a lot of kind and big hearted people in the US.

I just wish... That came through at the level of government a little more.

People don't need handouts if you help them be self-suficient.

People wouldn't have needed handouts if the government had done its job of looking after the citizens properly and had followed the engineers reccomendations regarding reinforcing the dam or dyke or whatever ya call it.

Now maybe this is wrong (please correct me if it is)

But I heard...

That the engineers had been saying that the walls needed reinforcing or precisely this was going to happen. I dunno what its called... But congress or whatever were going to spend this money on doing that... And then Bush declares 'state of war!' and diverts the resources to Iraq.

You need engineers in Iraq you see...

Is that right?????

 

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poster:alexandra_k thread:574039
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/poli/20050924/msgs/575049.html