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Re: beta carbolines to reverse benzo cognitive pro

Posted by linkadge on August 10, 2007, at 9:20:49

In reply to Re: beta carbolines to reverse benzo cognitive pro linkadge, posted by Quintal on August 9, 2007, at 10:33:56

>Benzodiazepines can cause depression with long->term use. This is a well known fact and proven >by many studies as well as clinical experience. >Heather Ashton has done some excellent work on >the subject, have you read it?

The operative word is *can*. Some studies have found that benzodiazapines can augment the effects of antidepressants, and/or have their own antidepressant effect.


>Benzodiazepines seem to cause a *progressive* >deterioration in mental performance and mood >over time, usually several years. So somebody >could be relatively unaffected at the beginning, >yet over time their cognitive functioning >declines and their mood darkens.

I have read some studies allong these lines but I have also read studies that do not support this.

Dr. Paul Cheny uses clonazepam for CFS. His theory, which is supported by some research, is that by restoring "action potentials", clonazepam can be be neuroprotective. He sites some studies suggesting that long term use of clonazepam apparently led to lower rates of Alzheimers. He has a book, I believe, which details his work.


>This happens gradually so it may be attributed >to other factors in a person's life. Benzos also >lose their anxiolytic efficacy as tolerance >develops and after a while fear creeps in from >every corner until it's everywhere >(agoraphobia/GAD).

Actually thats not necessarily true, and unnecessarily dramatic. Benzodiazapines can provide long term relief for certain types of anxiety disorders. Some researchers have noted that while tollerance builds to the sedative and hypnotic effects, tollerance to the antianxiety does not always develop. I had sucessfully treated pure GAD for about two years on benzodiazapines alone. I had depression from the beginning, but did not notice any specific worsening.

>This too is a well known and documented >phenomenon.

Again, a possable phenomon.

>Interesting, link, that you feel so >>passionately about the temporary worsening of >>depression induced by SSRIs, but with benzos, >to >you this is an acceptable side effect.

I just feel passionately that people should know about possable side effects. While I don't feel its is right that side effects fail to be mentioned, I also don't think it is right to suggest that possable side effects extend to all users.

>I often wonder what your views would be like now >if you were given benzos as a teenager, not >SSRIs, and suffered as a consequence.

Well, actually I was given a benzo as a teenager, and still graduated high school with honors. I was given awards for the highest highschool marks in a few subject areas as well as completing my grade 10 RCM piano on benzodiazapines.

While I know people have had problems with them, I personally think they are *much* safer than SSRI's.

>Your comments on Nardil. Again, I question their >relevance because interference with REM sleep is >often said to be one of the central >antidepressant mechanisms, not only of MAOIs but >SSRIs and some other antidepressants too. So if >that were remedied then there is a risk the >antidepressant response would vanish too.

So what? REM sleep is where the brain regains ballence allong the cholinergic axis. While SSRI's will diminish REM sleep to some extent the MAOI's are known to almost abolish REM sleep for a much longer period than with SSRI's or TCA's. Clomipramine comes close to the MAOI's in terms of REM supression. Although, it is a dumb drug too!

>Therefore if Nardil cognitive impairment was >down to REM it would seem that the cognitive >impairment is central to the antidepressant (and >possibly anxiolytic) response.

Bingo. Many have noted that there is a direct correlation between the efficacy of an antidepressant and its propensity to cause cognitive problems. MAOI's, lithium, ECT, Nortryptaline, Clomipramine, Amitryptaline...some of the most effective antidepressants (clinically).





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