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Re: Jerry, Re: Just out of 2 week hosp. stay: McPac

Posted by jerrympls on July 14, 2003, at 19:19:34

In reply to Jerry, Re: Just out of 2 week hosp. stay: , posted by McPac on July 14, 2003, at 15:22:35

> Jerry, it's great to hear that you are feeling so well!
> The 'diet thing' is kind of 'overblown' perhaps? With sooooo many foods today containing hidden ingredients, how would someone know if they were eating something that contained, say, aged cheese(not just talking about store-bought foods that have labels, but about all the foods you eat elsewhere....I can think of MANY examples where cheeses are added to foods in which you would never know they were even there.....I know Nardil is awesome (I took it for a short time many years ago), just wondering why it's been around for eons and yet decades and decades pass and you STILL have the dietary restriction crap.....do they EVER improve these drugs....400 years from now folks on Nardil will still have the same dietary restrictions.....seems like every other field makes constant innovations, improvements except these psyche meds....10,000 years from now these meds will STILL cause your pecker not to work.....if everything else changed as pitifully slow as these psych meds did, we'd still be flying in Orville and Wilbur Wright's plane, driving in Henry Ford's auto, and saying that the World was flat.......just wondering how these meds can be around for lifetimes and yet no improvements are made in the meds....is there at least anything one could take (w/ Nardil) that would let you eat foods without wondering if you'd have to visit the ER afterwards....just one example I gave in the past (though you could think of endless examples) is this spaghetti dinner that I often go to w/ my family...just recently found out (when talking to someone who works there about their recipe) that they add various cheeses which go into the SAUCE of the spaghetti...so if you were taking Nardil and happened to go to this place, you'd be thinking, "well, I can't put cheese on my spaghetti and I'll be fine" never knowing that cheeses were ALREADY mixed into the sauce....I can think of so many examples where foods contain ingredients that you would never suspect....even store-bought foods contain hidden ingredients.......for someone who eats at home ALL THE TIME and prepares all of their own meals, that would make things much easier but I eat out all the time (work, with friends, picnics, outings, anywhere and everywhere----there is no way to know what is in all those foods...I would love to hang out with someone taking an MAOI for any long period of time and see how they can go everywhere and eat at restaurants, malls, work, ANYWHERE, without knowing what's in the food they're eating.....can't even imagine going to a picnic, dinner, friend's house, etc. and having to analyze every ingredient in a meal every time I ate....does Nardil come w/ an "Agoraphobic Diet', lol, just stay at home and eat only the same foods that you KNOW the ingredients of....again, would just love to know someone on Nardil and take them to a restaurant buffet or tons of other places (like that spaghetti dinner place for just one example) and watch how they decide what foods they can and cannot eat when there are so many foods that contain hidden ingredients.....and that's just foods, aren't there many other things (meds, OTC things you'd commonly buy at the store for example, supps, that can't be taken w/ Nardil........would LOVE to take Nardil if it weren't for all this crap.....500 years from now the same restrictions will surely apply, lol. I'm not picking on Nardil as I already know its awesome benefits, just wondering why these meds never see innovations/improvements after EONS of existence.......the best anti-dep is still a Smith & Wesson.....gotta run, haven't been posting much lately, will check back soon. P.S. Ace, you STILL R-U-L-E!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Whoa!! :-)

The dietary restrictions are very much inflated. The dreaded "cheese" effect only happens if you eat A LOT of aged cheese - especially cheddar. I've had lasagna, spaghetti, calzones, etc at restaurants and have avoided any hypertensive crisis. The OLD dietary restrictions used to say NO cheese, NO chocolate, NO caffeine, NO wine, NO beer, NO Yeast, NO raisins, etc etc. however, in the past 7 years the diet has been dramatically changed.

I have in front of me three research studies using special tyramine analysis processes to find out EXACTLY how much tyramine certain "restricted" foods actually contain. The results are in favor of LESS restriction.

For example:

"Refining the MAOI Diet: Tyramine Content of Pizzas and Soy Products" by Kenneth Shulman, MD and Scott Walker, MScPharm found using high-pressure liquid chromatography analysis of tyramine content that pizzas from large commercial outlets are SAFE with MAOIs. THey caution gourmet pizzas from restaurants that may contain other aged cheeses. Soybean products should be avoided and/or used with caution - especially soy sauce. However, aged Ramano cheese and feta cheese were foudn to have low tyramine content - 0.12mg and 0.173mg per serving. Anything around or above 6mg of tyramine consumed is likely to result in hypertensive crisis.

Another study by the two same people including David Gardner, BScPharm, found (using similar tyramine analysis) aged or cured meats (e.g. air-dried sausage), spoiled meat (oh darn!), sauerkraut, soy sauce, tap beer, and fava beans should be avoided. Domestic canned or bottled beer is ok if used in moderation. Basically, you want o avoid anything that has had plenty of time to FERMENT because that build up proteins that in turn build tyramine..

Finally, the third study "Tyramine Content of Previously restricted Foods in MAOI Diets" by Scott Walker, MScPHARM, Kenneth Shulman, MN, Sandra Tailor, PharmD and David Gardner, BScPHARM - found pepperoni to have low tyramine levels - .11mg per 30g serving. Soy Sauce had a VERY high tyramine content - 14.12mg per 30g serving as did ToFu (14.12mg) and 9 day-old aged chicken livers (63.84mg). Spoiled fruits including raspberries that have either been sitting out or refrigerated for 4 days along with old bananas also contained higher levels of tyramine - 1mg per 30mg serving and 2.58mg per 30mg serving. They recommend NOT to eat the banana skins (oh darn!!)

So as you can see, the diet - while very important and critical to follow - is hardly "resrictive." I'd say you have to look out more for OTC meds containg dextromethorphan (cough suppressant in Robotussin), sudafed, and any OTC diet pills. You also CANNOT be given DEMEROL (meperidine) - a narcotic pain reliver in the same class as morphine. Morphine is ok - but you must be cautious with other narcotic pain relivers. These can cause serious reactions leading to severe hypertensive ( high blood pressure) crisis. Symptoms indclude severe, disabling headache, nausea, shortness of breath, etc. A visit to the ER is th eonly way to get one's blood pressure back to normal.

So far, I have eaten pizza with fresh cheddar & mozzerella & pepperoni, lite american beer, calzones, lasagna (beef and vegetarian), chocolate, cafffeine and have had NO reaction what so ever. However, this is ME. Some others may be more susceptible to the amounts of tyramine. So I'm not saying everyone can eat what I have eaten and have no reaction. But I thought I'd help de-worry y'all about the infamous "cheese" reactions and other dietary "restrictions."

I'd be happy to make copies of these research articles and send them to you i fyou send me a self-addressed stamp envelope with three 37cent stamps on the envelope. Email me and I will give you my mailing address if you are interested.

Again - I AM NO DOCTOR NOR DO I PLAY ONE ON THE INTERNET. These are MY EXPERIENCES - except for the excerpts from the articles. BTW- the articles were published in 1996 in the Journal of Clinical Psychopharmacology.

Anyway, just something to ponder. The positive of Nardil FAR outweigh the negative "restrictions."

Hope this helps....

Jerry :-)


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URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20030714/msgs/241850.html