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Re: TMG » colin wallace

Posted by Ron Hill on June 7, 2003, at 22:54:19

In reply to TMGRon Hill, posted by colin wallace on June 6, 2003, at 7:54:28

Hey Colin,

> I've started taking NADH at 5mg on alternate days.I like it, it feels somewhat like a more 'refined'version of SAM-E to me.

I agree. However, I have a hunch that your dosage might be too high for long-term use. You might want to order some 2.5 mg tablets and be ready to titrate your dosage in the downward direction if it starts to make you irritable. On the other hand, I may be wrong and 5mg on alternate days might be fine for long-term use.

I'm amazed at how little (2.5 mg once or twice a week) it takes to keep me out of depression. But when it wears off, I know it; my motivation declines and I start to fall into depression.

> So far, I get no irritability either.

Cool. For me it took ten days at 10 mg/day before the irritability showed up.

> I wanted to ask you about TMG though (you take this for NADH induced irritability don't you?)

The benefit I find in adding TMG is that it seems to extend the time period of effectiveness for the Enada NADH. In other words, without the TMG, a 2.5 mg dose of Enada NADH loses its effectiveness after about four days. But with TMG, it lasts a full week. Therefore, TMG indirectly reduces my irritability by reducing my Enada NADH dosing frequency.

However, while you were on holiday on the coast (I think you said the coast), John-John (johnj) told me about the efficacy of niacinamide for treating irritability. We didn’t have any niacinamide in the house, so I tried niacin. It is incredible! 250 – 375 mg/day of niacin (divided into two or three doses throughout the day) abates my irritability. I’ll come back to this topic in a moment, but I bring it up here because the niacin allows me to increase the Enada NADH dosing back up to twice a week (when I feel the need to do so) without getting irritable.

> I was just reading an article about TMG causing hyperactivity in autistic children, and that essentially, the demethylation process of TMG translates into increased Sam-e. Given that SAM-E eventually sentr us both 'over the edge' with anger symptoms, I'm wondering whether TMG has this potential also?

You and I think along the same lines. I asked Larry this same question when I was considering giving TMG a trial. Larry’s answer to me was that the only real way to find out is to try it. I’m in my seventh week of the TMG trial and so far so good. But SAM-e worked well for five months before it blew up on me, so time will tell.

> Or is this a more natural,'downstream' method of raising SAM levels perhaps?

My thoughts exactly, except I’d say “upstream” instead of “downstream” (but that probably depends on which way your row boat is headed).

> I've lost the article unfortunately, and haven't had the time yet to look at TMG in depth. What do you think?

I think it is probably worth a trial. It ain’t gonna hurt ya, and it’s affordable.

Okay back to the niacin/niacinamide discussion. I plan to try niacinamide soon because it is reported to be even better than niacin in treating irritability. But niacin is working so well for me that I don’t want to take any chance of rocking the boat too soon.

I'm convinced that niacin is doing this incredible job of treating my irritability via improved serotonin production. As I understand it, if the human body does not absorb adequate amounts of B3 (niacin) from the diet, the body will manufacture in own supply of B3. However, it is a costly manufacturing process in that 60 tryptophan molecules are consumed for every B3 molecule produced. Therefore, by supplying my body with plenty of B3, a large reservoir of tryptophan can now be freed up for the production of additional serotonin. I believe that it is this increased production of serotonin that is abating the irritability (flash rage, sever impatience, etc).

I love the increased motivation, drive, and focus that comes with improved dopamine pathway functioning. For example, Enada NADH increases the production of dopamine and I love it. However, if my dopamine levels get out ahead of my serotonin levels, I get irritable (GRRRRRRRRR!). This is one of my naive pharmacological explanations which may or may not have any semblance of fact. But what I do know is when I raise serotonin levels (using SSRIs, or other means) the irritability subsides. And now B3 is doing this for me (or so my theory goes) without the adverse side effects of the SSRIs. Of course, even if my hypothesis is correct, B3 supplementation will likely only help those folks with lower-than-optimal levels of B3.

As an aside, if my serotonin gets out ahead of my dopamine (as occurs when I take an SSRI), then I lose my motivation and my emotions become blunted. More of my pharmacological musing which may or may not be correct.

Colin, it is my understanding that your irritability problems are currently under control with your current med combo (Lamictal and 10 mg/day average of Prozac). And that’s great. If, however, irritable mood states become problematic for you in the future, I beseech you to give niacinamide or niacin a trial.

So as it stands right now, I’m good to go. Lithobid for my hypomania, Enada NADH and TMG for depression, and niacin for my dysphoric mood states. Niacin also provides some antidepressant effects so it really belongs in two of my categories.

How are you doing?

-- Ron




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