Psycho-Babble Medication | about biological treatments | Framed
This thread | Show all | Post follow-up | Start new thread | List of forums | Search | FAQ

I think benzos ADs are poor meds need improvem

Posted by 3 Beer Effect on August 13, 2002, at 11:49:21

In reply to BENZOS ARE SAFER THAN ANTIDEPRESSANTS, posted by Hiba on August 13, 2002, at 4:17:50

The problem with Benzos is that they don't elevate your mood. I think that if Benzos worked more like Alcohol or possibly Chloral Hydrate (& the related but discontinued meds Triclofos & Chloral Betaine) they would be better. What I mean that Alcohol is a great disinhibitor & is mood-elevating at low doses (2 or less drinks) while Benzos are poor disinhibitors by comparison & lack mood-elevating effects, but 'dull' the mind, personality, & mood (induce apathy & often low-grade depression). I forgot much of the psychopharmacology of alcohol, which is quite complex (it acts on/increases GABA-A, 5HT3 Serotonin, Dopamine, Opoids, Adenosine, and decreases NDMA/glutamate), but most importantly, it releases the brain from its normally excessive inhibitory control/anxiety which usually results in stimulation/excitation/mood elevation/confidence-increase/disinhibition at low doses (2 drinks or less). I've read that after drinking 2 standard US sized drinks (12 oz beer etc), experiment test subjects could actually solve complex puzzles faster & more accurately than when sober, but of course, with the 3rd drink alcohol starts to become a depressant/dumb drug that which each successive drink turns you into something closer to a caveman/woman seeking instant gratification of biological drives/needs- a human "animal" with little to no rational thought.

I don't know if Chloral Hydrate works this same way, but it does metabolize to trichloroethanol, so I would guess that it would work similar to alcohol, & might work better than benzos if you got the dose just right, but no one prescribes it anymore so I guess i'll never find out. Its a shame that they stopped making Triclofos & Chloral Betaine because they work the same (metabolize to trichloroethanol) but don't have the main side effect of Chloral Hydrate= Nausea, stomach upset, terrible taste.

I don't know if Chloral Hydrate is very addictive or not. I have read that it is, but since it is so similar to Alcohol, I don't see why it would be since Alcohol is addictive to only 10% of those who drink it, & they tried (unsuccessfully) to wean Marilyn Monroe off Barbituates (Nembutal) by substituting (the safer) Chloral Hydrate, so I would guess that it is safer than Barbituates but more dangerous than Alcohol & Benzodiazepines, especially in overdose. I think like alcohol, it may have toxic effects on the liver at high/chronic long-term doses.

But, seizures caused by Benzodiazepine withdrawl are the #2 top reason for emergency room seizures in non-epileptics (slightly behind the #1 Cocaine which has faded quite rapidly in popularity over the last 10 years). Wellbutrin is #3 for seizures. So, although Benzos are one of the safer drugs in overdose, they are dangerous to withdrawl from rapidly or cold-turkey, especially when the person has been taking high doses. And the Benzo/Alcohol combo is supposed to be unpredictably dangerous & sometimes deadly.

This is all stuff i've read in books though. Has anyone here actually taken Chloral Hydrate at daytime, non-hypnotic doses, & if so does it work better than Benzodiazepines for anxiety or social phobia? How does Meprobomate/Miltown/Equanil compare?

I myself take the benzodiazepine Klonopin 4 mg/day with 40 mg/day Dextrostat (the only 'name-brand' dexedrine available in 10 mg tablets). So the combo I take is sort of like 2 drinks of alcohol in that the d-amphetamine is excitatory/disinhibitory/confidence enhancing while the benzo Klonopin, well, doesn't do much of anything except make me less jittery/nervous in social situations & seems to reduce any urge to drink alcohol.

But although this d-amphetamine/benzodiazepine combo is the best I have found for me personally (after disastrous trials with SSRIs, Remeron, Effexor XR) it is not a life-long answer because the brain always tries to maintain homeostasis, & stimulants like amphetamines/cocaine/methylphenidate or depressants like benzodiazepines/alcohol disrupt this homeostasis & tolerance develops as the brain's 'natural adjustment' to the effects of these 'medicines' which it perceives as negative/injurious "outside" ingested toxins. Dextrostat works as a great anti-depressant for about 5 hours after each dose, but then it wears off & you are depressed/lethargic/anhedonic again. The only way to prevent that is to take "stimulant holidays" once in awhile, but on those days getting out of bed is next to impossible. So to help alleviate depression I now take 100 mg of Solaray brand L-5-hydroxytryptophan at night which seems to work moderately well to increase Serotonin (& is not dependent on a rate-limited enzyme like l-tryptophan) & improve sleep, but without the side effects of SSRIs. Hopefully, they'll come out a non-toxic improved version of Wellbutrin SR some day that doesn't cause seizures or have possible hepatotoxic properties & I can then take that instead of Dextrostat. There is one in the GlaxoSK pipeline called GW353162 (NE/DA reuputake inhibitor) but it is in FDA Phase I trials so I guess there's a slim chance we might see it 5 to 10 years from now!

As far as antidepressants go, they are always missing any significant action on Dopamine which may be a partial cause of the "poop out" phenomenon & probably reduces their effectiveness. The SNRIs Duloxetine & Milnacipram might turn out to be improvements upon the SSRIs but they have very little to no action on Dopamine. An anti-depressant that acted on Serotonin, NE, & DA would probably be a very powerful medicine & have a high cure/depression improvement rate- Sibutramine/Meridia which isn't marketed as an anti-depressant but is an anti-obesity agent is believed to inhibit reuputake of 5-HT, NE, & possibly DA although it isn't known exactly how it works).

A great combination Anti-depressant & Anti-Anxiety/Social Phobia medication would be one than inhibits the reuputake of Serotonin (interest/trust in other people, outgoingness) AND Dopamine (confidence, optimism), but NOT Norepinephrine which is implicated in the most popular theories of Social Phobia & Anxiety. Zoloft (sertraline) looks like it has this property, but in reality it only inhibits the reuputake of Dopamine at doses greater than its max of 200 mg/day- a dose at which the serotonin receptor is already 95% "saturated" & would result in some major serotonin side effects.

A general (non-subtype selective) Dopamine-only reuputake inhibitor might make both a good energizing anti-depressant & an ADHD medicine. (Amineptine & another French anti-depressant called something like "medifoxine"? have this property but Amineptine has been banned by politicians for fear of possible abuse potential because of its dopamine enhancing properties, even though it was used in France as an effective anti-depressant for years without problems).

Any comments, suggestions, corrections, experiences with any of these medicines?

Thanks,
3 Beers.


Share
Tweet  

Thread

 

Post a new follow-up

Your message only Include above post


Notify the administrators

They will then review this post with the posting guidelines in mind.

To contact them about something other than this post, please use this form instead.

 

Start a new thread

 
Google
dr-bob.org www
Search options and examples
[amazon] for
in

This thread | Show all | Post follow-up | Start new thread | FAQ
Psycho-Babble Medication | Framed

poster:3 Beer Effect thread:116248
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20020807/msgs/116284.html